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As far as i'm concerned, monotheist religions do not talk about lucid dreams in any form. Lucidity is experienced by many oneironauts as a life-changing event. So my question is, did it change your perception about your religion? Has your faith never been stronger or do you feel betrayed?
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Originally Posted by Unicorn
I have had a difficult time finding religion. It was not for a lack of trying.
But I have seen throughout the years these events that always happened in and out of sleep that people have called religious signs.
Once I was introduced to lucid dreaming I had answers to these so called phenomenons.
I began a quest for awareness. Through my entire life. with regards to lucid dreaming and a fulfillment for life in general. This led me to question the validity in all things.
If I could take the blue pill and believe, I would.
This path has led me to discredit most religion has indoctrination and a human need as well as a fallacy.
I certainly do not feel betrayed. It was my own quest. I feel somewaht liberated from the confines of organized religion.
If anything, I'm more in awe of this body and brain that has been "loaned" to me than ever before.
As far as my faith goes, returning to lucid dreaming (as I used to LD as a child) has had no impact at all.
Don't you think there is a basic contradiction between:
andQuote:
Originally Posted by Howetzer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howetzer
Perhaps, but that is totally the matrix-dillema right there: what I think is that Howetzer knows religion is a fraud, to a certain extend, so he can never really believe in it anymore. However he does think ignorance is bliss. Like the dude in the matrix that shot the people with the super-lightnigh-gun :0Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicorn
Well really Howetzer, not like believers are more happy, at least that is how they appear to me. Be happy given the real choice between red and blue, for indoctrinated christians never get a glimpse of the red one.
EDITTED to make me look less like a total know-it-all asshat. :)
(that I still am :))
Thank you Neruo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neruo
You said that much better than I could have. Perfectly explained. Thank you.
As far as your second statement, I am comfortable in my life and my decisions. However, they say ignorance is bliss. Hence given the reason I had said I would take the blue pill. So if you never see the red one, you do not care. It is all BLUE.
It is not contradictory because I live in a world without the blue pill. Hypothetically I would.. if given the choice.
I would like to say just because I feel that most of religion is a fraud, that does not mean I do not feel there can be a God. (another contradictory statement? :wink: )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howetzer
Yeah I did kind of noticed that I sounded smart assed again. I meant that that was what I thought, aight?
Quote:
As far as your second statement, I am comfortable in my life and my decisions. However, they say ignorance is bliss. Hence given the reason I had said I would take the blue pill. So if you never see the red one, you do not care. It is all
Yeah point is: ignorance is bliss. Ok, agreed. But I think you are overating is. Knowledge also is bliss.Quote:
BLUE.
It is not contradictory because I live in a world without the blue pill. Hypothetically I would.. if given the choice.
I would like to say just because I feel that most of religion is a fraud, that does not mean I do not feel there can be a God. (another contradictory statement? :wink: )
[/b]
Is it just me, or does Neruo have a problim with God and his followers?
anyhow, on the actual topic: It hasn't changed my perception in the slightest.
edited quote
(is it flame? maybe a little...)
(i quoted the second part just the same because it's the same for me)Quote:
Is it just me, or does keeper have a problem with not having a God and his not- followers?
anyhow, on the actual topic: It hasn't changed my perception in the slightest.[/b]
WHAT? I hadn't noticed!Quote:
Originally Posted by Keeper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicorn
I am a Christain and having a lucid dream has not changed my perception of what I know through my faith. My faith is a strong as ever. I know that God made me exactly the way he planned. And God has a plan for me. Any gifts I have are because God blessed me with them. That includes the gift of having Lucid Dreams. I have even called on Jesus to get myself out of a few nightmares.
BeaconDreamer
Yeah, I tried to somewhat mellow down my hate not to upset to much people, but that didn't work :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
But really, how weird, I have a problem with the number 1 thing that people have killed for, religion. And Oh-my, I hate something that indoctrinates children and takes away a part of their free will and openly-thinking.
Lucidity has changed little about my views on religion. I just now am even more aware of the fact that what we see is not what is real, even if we are awake. Everything we see is an interpretation, and you can see what you want to see, both in dreams as in real life.
I think you miss my point. Yes knowledge in our day to day life is essential. And in my life at this point I feel blinded to follow any religion. So people that truly believe are content. While I may be content in my day to day "knowledge" at the end of the day, should it be my last day, I can not give you an absolute answer to what will happen to me. Where as someone of true faith (though possibly wrong) knows in THEIR mind that they are saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neruo
Perhaps you so strongly believe that you will turn to decay. That too is a belief. You may also be wrong. I claim, I don't know! That is not a peaceful place to be.
You areQuote:
Originally Posted by Howetzer
to follow any religion? I find that kind of ironic, as it almost always is religion causing blindness to people...Quote:
Blinded [/b]
A more suited metaphor, in my eyes, would be that you are no longer able to Not see the woman's face or the bunny in a picture. You know those pictures, they look pretty normal, a picture of a tree with other green stuff and all, but then, if you look good, all of a sudden you see the tree and other green shit is shaped like a woman's face / bunnyrabbit. Once you see it, it is hard not to see it.
I would have peace with my life 'just ending', as long as I have lead a good life.Quote:
So people that truly believe are content. While I may be content in my day to day "knowledge" at the end of the day, should it be my last day, I can not give you an absolute answer to what will happen to me. Where as someone of true faith (though possibly wrong) knows in THEIR mind that they are saved.
Perhaps you so strongly believe that you will turn to decay. That too is a belief. You may also be wrong. I claim, I don't know! That is not a peaceful place to be.
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Anyhows, Howetzer, you really are burdened with enough reason to see organized religion is nonsense, but at the same time you seem to kind of wish it was all true. Point being: Kind of nihilism on the pessimistic side, I think, to be honest.
My message to you: Cheer up :) Not like Christians really are more happy because they 'just know' they will 'live on' after they are dead. Actually, to be humble as always, it is a 'blessing' to see that (organized) religion isn't the way :) Also, if you were religious, (in many cases) you would have to worry about everything! Aborting, bad language on TV, discriminating more homos, euthanasia, blasphemery, indoctrination your Children, killing people out of the name of your god, ect, ect, ect. :)
I happen to care about those things anywoo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neruo
Which leads me to my question.
What is a "good life" in your eyes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Neruo
Have you ever taken a step back and taken awareness to the fact that you may very well be as indoctrinated to your unBELIEF, as any "believer" on this Forum?
Im wiccan, and Lucid Dreaming is not much delved into in the wiccan religion. But some use it (like me) to strengthen the mind and use it to help w/ abilities such as mind reading, traveling to the astral plane, fun stuff like so. I feel that by using Lucid Dreaming I have greatly increased my knowledge in general, and no matter what religion i would have chosen i believe LDing would have remained a constant
~R~
Hasn't effected my beliefs at all. I feel it is a logical thing, that is just another possibility, in our amazing minds. Which were created by an amazing God.
That is up to YOU. I do hope that you, and all other people, include 'being nice to others' to your paradigm of a 'good life', but basically your life is good if you like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howetzer
It seems unlikely that I am indoctrinated, since I sincerely have the feeling I have come to almost all conclusions by thinking myself. I never was told god didn't exist, I just drew that conclusion. I might be influenced by false data of some sort. However even then, unless there are some really important thing I really don't know, I don't think that is the case. Because how false can data be if it shines from all angels. Not like I just read/hear about atheism, I also read/hear about religion.Quote:
Have you ever taken a step back and taken awareness to the fact that you may very well be as indoctrinated to your unBELIEF, as any "believer" on this Forum?
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Point being: I never had a leading figure, a leading source, telling me religion was bullcrap. From alot of information, also from the other side (not like I never saw a Church from the inside), I made my own conclusions.
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Anyhows, Howtzer, if you don't have peace with what you believe, then you are worse off then any religious bigot.
That seems logical enough. I too have been through the same process it seems as you. I am just not as sure footed in what to believe at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neruo
I certainly agree with you there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neruo
~ Dreams as a learning and humbling experience.
I have had (In my eyes) the humbling experience of facing death in a few of my dreams. I am glad they were not lucid because my conditioned conscious perceptions did not alter my feelings.
When I was faced with this situation there was a great feeling of not knowing, an emptiness.
When manifested in a dream to where your mind thinks it is real it is entirely different than that of you and I asking each other - would you be comfortable with your choices on your death bed.
Doubt sucks balls, but it is the mother of all progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howetzer
Or something. I am just trying to sound all 'cool' and 'spiritually' here. :)
Quote:
I certainly agree with you there.
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Hm. To be honest, at least you are... honest. In a way. Because I feel like you really think that way. Ah, all I can say again is: Cheer up. I don't know, but just do what seems 'right' to you. Just because you don't believe in god it doesn't mean you can't believe in yourself and in the power of mankind.
Quote:
~ Dreams as a learning and humbling experience.
I have had (In my eyes) the humbling experience of facing death in a few of my dreams. I am glad they were not lucid because my conditioned conscious perceptions did not alter my feelings.
When I was faced with this situation there was a great feeling of not knowing, an emptiness.
When manifested in a dream to where your mind thinks it is real it is entirely different than that of you and I asking each other - would you be comfortable with your choices on your death bed.
Ah. That is kind of special indeed. I mean, just dieing in dreams isn't all that special, since if you play enough video games, you 'die' in 'real' (waking) life a whole lot to. But to actually, really, know (dream) that you are going to die... Yeah that must have quite an impact...Quote:
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You know howetzer, I think that once you get old, you don't fear death as much. Of course I can never really know, untill I get old, but I think I will not 'fear' death as much as I do know. Sometimes I do feel very mortal, like 'omg I am going to be dead in 80 years'. But I honestly think few people that are aged 90 think 'omg I are going to die within a few years'. Like how young people always think old people arn't happy, while actually old people are more happy then young people (some study with some tests showed).
Point being:
Yeah. K. Dieing sucks balls. But as long as you live another day, that doesn't matter that day.
Betrayed in the fact that I have not been told everything, and that I have to find it out my own (possibly with the help of lucid dreaming).
I have strong beliefs about this. People who have never seen that there are two pills may believe themselves to be living a full life, but I believe there is some part of their mind that is questioning it all. Since we are all interested in LD's, many of us think about the subconscious. I believe the people who are unaware that there are two pills, have a part of their subconscious that is always unfulfilled. I would not want that.Quote:
If I could take the blue pill and believe, I would.
Be happy given the real choice between red and blue, for indoctrinated christians never get a glimpse of the red one.
So if you never see the red one, you do not care. It is all BLUE.
Doubt sucks balls, but it is the mother of all progress.[/b]
People who have seen the two pills and chosen the blue one are always aware at some level that they have chosen an illusion. The subconscious does not forget, so there is always some part of you that is unfulfilled.
Now for the interesting part: those who choose the red pill. When we choose the red pill, we give up on all the easy answers. It can seem empty at first. It can seem cold and lifeless, and pointless. But it is the only choice that is truly real, through and through. Accepting life as it is, the universe as it is, leads us to a place of acceptance. We come to see things as they are, and the joy we find is raw. A delusion that there is some happy eternity waiting for us at death can dull us to the joys of everyday life. Acceptance of this life, this moment, helps us to fully experience each moment.
Walking a single mountain, the path is all uphill, and we reach ever-greater heights. But we only find one peak. Walking a mountain range, the path covers peaks and valleys and ridges and saddles. But we get the joy of endless peaks.
The fluffy writings of a joyful atheist!
Quoted for truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaphyR
It's such a relief to read something like that on this board (go read a few topics in "Beyond Dreaming" if you don't know what I mean).
Very well said.
i dont think anyone could ahve put that better
fair play.
Imran
I have had LD's and nothing about my beliefs have changed (I'm still a half-ass Christian who goes to church on christmas and when my school/parents make me.)
Although.... my LD's haven't been very 'spiritual'... you know like fly around and have sex with a hot chick... and destroy a town...
Yes, it completely changed not only my opinions and understanding of religion (Christianity, specifically), but my whole life as well.
Well it wasn't LDing alone; also OBE/AP, which I discovered at about the same time.
And while they didn't make me who I now am, they were certainly the catalyst that turned my life around, as my first major reality tunnel buster.
The thing is that I had been brought up as a Christian; and while I wasn't ever too much into that, I still accepted the Christian view of the order of things as reality.
I often debated religion, defending Christianity with stock answers and coming up with ideas to validate the Christian understanding of the world that I would now consider insane - because after all, it was the "truth"; that much was already determined in my mind, so all I had to do was try and come up with a potentially possible explanation for the subject at hand...and in some cases, simply a "Well, it doesn't matter if you believe it or can understand it - truth is truth, regardless of your opinion or lack of comprehension".
I understood that we lived in the physical, and God and Jesus and Satan (and their cronies) were what made up the "spirit world", which wasn't permitted to be accessed by physical humans, except when God saw fit (which was rather rare, as he seemed to dislike the idea of people accessing the spiritual realm); and the majority of people who are able to access the "spirit world" by talking to spirits, or having them do their bidding, or perform paranormal phenomena, do so through the "power of the Deceiver". Because God would only do things to glorify his name, right? And the only persons who will glorify his name are people who believe in him, namely Christians.
Also in Matthew 24 Jesus warns about the false prophets, doing signs and wonders in order to deceive.
So I felt (as do most Christians) that they fit the bill.
Now LDing in itself would not have been enough to precipitate the change that resulted; though it was the first step, it was OBE/AP that really pulled it through.
Simply put, I realized that I had discovered things about the "spirit world" that were not defined or mentioned by the Bible. That wasn't even the main thing - it was the understanding that it didn't involve God or Satan, that one could access it by one's self.
Now when I say spirit world, I mean other states of consciousnes and other dimensions. And the spirit world. It's all one and the same, in my opinion.
Anyhow the full realization that I could access this "other realm" and it wasn't God doing it, but neither was it him who I normally would have attributed all other "paranormal" phenomena to (Satan); the understanding that they both could stay the hell away from me and I could do it all the same, was a big turning point.
Normally I would have thought accessing the "spirit world" (Christian understanding of the SP) would ba a bad thing, not of God.
Seeing that it had nothing to do with any of them, I first decided that it must be fine, because God wouldn't have created humans with the natural ability - however latent it may be - to do something like this, if it was supposed to be off limits.
After a while I decided that I wasn't interested in God - he may exist or he may not, and I couldn't care less. I had found things that I had never known of from reading religious texts. Christianity was all theoretical, but I had discovered the practical, and it was different.
I wasn't interested in God or Satan or any spirits that might exist. All I cared for was learning more about my mind. After all, if my brain had this incredible ability which I knew nothing about but which lay dormant, waiting to be roused, imagine what other potential lay there!
Not being tied anymore to Christianity was incredible. I had always considered myself to be open minded; but I realize now that as long as you hold beliefs of any sort, you remain fettered; if you cherish your beliefs, if they have a hold on you like religion can and does, it will always limit that which you allow yourself to understand and explore.
This time was a huge turning point in my life. I got heavily into LDing and began studying a branch of Buddhism (reality is a dream, an illusion...mindblowing concepts for me at that time). It was like I was in a new world, and I was discovering so many things right and left. And as I no longer held any set beliefs, I was completely open to anything and everything. Being that open brought me an incredible joy, as if I were a child in some fantasy land, full of free rides and treats.
For a while I was on a constant buzz, a continual euphoric feeling. I never experienced that before, and especially as I had recently come out of a nearly three-year bout of severe depression.
I suddenly viewed people around me in a different light. They were sleeping, mindless zombies who knew nothing other than the physical; all their concerns and aspirations and worries were about insignificant things that really didn't matter in the big picture.
Anyway from there I got into some forms of esotericism, occultism (academic), skepticism, magick, psychology (especially hypnosis and belief systems), and back to exploring the mind and states of consciousness.
I am now agnostic, and have better reasons for being so than mere rush-of-the-moment ideas.
Religion? depends what you mean by religion..
For example Buddhism, you could say is the cience of the mind, this tradition is based in the development of your mind and its reality..
This tradition offer a big range of tools to develope your mind.. and they have being practising Lucid Dreaming for more than 2500 years... Dream Yoga..
And believe me It goes beyond our normal Lds..
So yes.. there are relgions/ philosophies that contemplate lucid dream you just have to think out side the box...
And it really relates to the matrix.. they say that we are like sleeping, unaware, our matrix is the samsara for them,, ruled by our disturbed emotions.. and you need to wake up , realese your self from suffering.. how?? by training your mind..
Relgion is a delicate subject..
so you need to make sure your points are clear..
lol, im not Anti-Religious, i think people have the rite to believe in what ever they want but i definately have a more scientific belief towards our existance. Nothing in my life has ever led me to believe that there is one all-powerful God that created everything. To me thats rediculous but i dont want to offend anyone so i'll leave it at that.Quote:
Originally Posted by beacondreamer
This is just what philosophers have debated a long time about god..Quote:
Originally Posted by cptamazing
If god is perfet, how can something that is not perfect (US, the world) can come from something that is perfect.Is ilogical.
From Perfection comes only perfection, and due is perfect and It doesnt need to creat something.(why? because is perfect) lol/.
(you can plant weed and grow chile)//
So by this principle The idea of God comes in conflict.
If we are not perfect something of its same kind ()(God has to produce it so he is a not perfect/// So why should we trsut him?, why should we ask for perfection to something that cant give it to us.
Just a phylosofy point of view.