3 simple questions for those who are religious

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09-03-2008, 11:53 AM
Photolysis

3 simple questions for those who are religious

Three questions for those in this forum that are religious:

1. Do you believe in praying? That is to say, do you believe that by praying God will alter what would have happened if you had not prayed?

Example: you were just hit by a large hurricane. You pray to God that you and your family will be safe and this means you survive instead of being killed.

2. Do you believe in God's plan? Which means that everything has a purpose as part of God's divine plan.

Example: the hurricane you were just hit by was created by God for a reason

3. Do you believe that God does not (or can't) interfere with free will? In other words, he can not magically interfere with someone's decision, or he refuses to do so.
09-03-2008, 12:33 PM
Sisyphus50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpA47o8E46U

Skip ahead to 6:20.
09-03-2008, 12:34 PM
NonDualistic

God and the individual are merely the same

Albeit two distinct perspectives of that same One being.

Praying is a means of closing the gap between these perspectives

Everything affects everthing else

Everything is connected to everything else

Planned is the appearance from one point

Interconnected synchronistic movement from another

Given the nature of One singular essence, how can there be "interference"?
09-03-2008, 12:45 PM
SomeDreamer

haha, I love George Carlin :P That clip is one of the most awesome ones. The bullshit department ^^
09-03-2008, 06:28 PM
drewmandan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Three questions for those in this forum that are religious:

1. Do you believe in praying? That is to say, do you believe that by praying God will alter what would have happened if you had not prayed?

Example: you were just hit by a large hurricane. You pray to God that you and your family will be safe and this means you survive instead of being killed.

2. Do you believe in God's plan? Which means that everything has a purpose as part of God's divine plan.

Example: the hurricane you were just hit by was created by God for a reason

3. Do you believe that God does not (or can't) interfere with free will? In other words, he can not magically interfere with someone's decision, or he refuses to do so.

Prepare to face a wall of incomprehensible gibberish the likes of which you've never seen. Because whenever you ask a person to think critically about their most cherished beliefs, they always counter by spewing out pages and pages of nonsense to confuse the issue just enough so that you forget the question in the first place.
09-03-2008, 07:39 PM
Photolysis

Quote:

Prepare to face a wall of incomprehensible gibberish the likes of which you've never seen.

Eh, I've seen some bad stuff before. The one a few posts up is quite mild. But I'm good at working out what's really being said, don't worry!

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Because whenever you ask a person to think critically about their most cherished beliefs

I'm not in this case, or at least not trying to get people to think critically. I just wanted yes/no answers to those questions :P

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God and the individual are merely the same

So what you're saying is, we're all God and all part of each other? News to me. I better get testing those divine powers I've supposedly been sitting on all this time.
09-03-2008, 07:42 PM
nitsuJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Three questions for those in this forum that are religious:

1. Do you believe in praying? That is to say, do you believe that by praying God will alter what would have happened if you had not prayed?

Example: you were just hit by a large hurricane. You pray to God that you and your family will be safe and this means you survive instead of being killed.

2. Do you believe in God's plan? Which means that everything has a purpose as part of God's divine plan.

Example: the hurricane you were just hit by was created by God for a reason

3. Do you believe that God does not (or can't) interfere with free will? In other words, he can not magically interfere with someone's decision, or he refuses to do so.

1. No

2. No

3. Yes
09-04-2008, 07:39 AM
StonedApe

1. Praying is a form of introspection. Reflect. It is very important. Though many people see prayer as some tiime when you just say I want this to happen. God is everything, so if you want God to do something, go do it.

2. "God's Plan" is just the law of cause and effect. God is everything, so that hurricane is God, and so is what it "destroys".

3. Well, GOd is everything around you, and everything around you has an influence on your free will. So yes it has an influence. People can be tricked into doing things through things like hypnosis. Usually the case is not so severe but the "outside world" has a great influence on you.
09-04-2008, 11:11 PM
Needcatscan

Quote:

Originally Posted by stonedape

1. Praying is a form of introspection. Reflect. It is very important. Though many people see prayer as some tiime when you just say I want this to happen. God is everything, so if you want God to do something, go do it.

2. "God's Plan" is just the law of cause and effect. God is everything, so that hurricane is God, and so is what it "destroys".

3. Well, GOd is everything around you, and everything around you has an influence on your free will. So yes it has an influence. People can be tricked into doing things through things like hypnosis. Usually the case is not so severe but the "outside world" has a great influence on you.

About #3: Does anyone else find it needlessly confusing to refer to this definition as god? Why not a universal spirit, or nature? Just not god, this is how so many Theists are able to quote mine people who actually believed in Spinoza's god.
09-08-2008, 12:36 PM
The Enterer

Rip God's beard off.
Glue it back on.
Repeat forever.
09-09-2008, 02:19 AM
Original Poster

[quote=Photolysis;891690]Three questions for those in this forum that are religious:

Quote:

1. Do you believe in praying? That is to say, do you believe that by praying God will alter what would have happened if you had not prayed?

I believe energy transfers, and I believe matter is condensed energy, and energy is condensed imagination. It's not God, prayer is about focusing positive energy on whatever you pray for.

Quote:

2. Do you believe in God's plan? Which means that everything has a purpose as part of God's divine plan.

God's plan? I believe in harmony, but the only real destiny are the choices you make. Our decisions are the only thing in existence that are truly immortal. However like I said, I believe in harmony. Things must happen in their right timing, and in that sense we are influenced heavily by exterior energies. In the end, the choices are our own.

Quote:

3. Do you believe that God does not (or can't) interfere with free will? In other words, he can not magically interfere with someone's decision, or he refuses to do so.

We are all connected to God, we are all in his image. Essentially, we have all the power of God, we are like clones, like infinite consciousness divided into infinite fractions, all just as infinite as God himself. Our consciousness is infinite but consciousness is nothing more than what must exist for existence to exist at all (if you understand what I mean). Let me put it this way, if a tree falls in the forest and there's on around to hear it, then it did not make a sound. Obviously this example is imperfect because a forest is never alone. The point is, an experience does not happen unless it is experienced. Existence does not happen unless something can sit and watch it all unfold.

So can God interfere with your decisions? As much as you can interfere with your decisions.
09-09-2008, 02:40 AM
drewmandan

[QUOTE=Omnius Deus;895909]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Three questions for those in this forum that are religious:

I believe energy transfers, and I believe matter is condensed energy, and energy is condensed imagination. It's not God, prayer is about focusing positive energy on whatever you pray for.

God's plan? I believe in harmony, but the only real destiny are the choices you make. Our decisions are the only thing in existence that are truly immortal. However like I said, I believe in harmony. Things must happen in their right timing, and in that sense we are influenced heavily by exterior energies. In the end, the choices are our own.

We are all connected to God, we are all in his image. Essentially, we have all the power of God, we are like clones, like infinite consciousness divided into infinite fractions, all just as infinite as God himself. Our consciousness is infinite but consciousness is nothing more than what must exist for existence to exist at all (if you understand what I mean). Let me put it this way, if a tree falls in the forest and there's on around to hear it, then it did not make a sound. Obviously this example is imperfect because a forest is never alone. The point is, an experience does not happen unless it is experienced. Existence does not happen unless something can sit and watch it all unfold.

So can God interfere with your decisions? As much as you can interfere with your decisions.

Did stonedape steal your account?
09-09-2008, 09:09 AM
Photolysis

Quote:

I believe energy transfers

There's no need for simple belief. Science has plenty of evidence that it does. In order to read this for instance, electro-chemical reactions in my brain caused other chemical reactions in my CNS and muscles, giving my muscles kinetic energy and G.P.E to type on the keyboard, converting them back in to electrical signals which were sent to the DV server as a combination of electrons and photons, written as magnetic dipoles on the HDD. The process repeates in reverse, and the photons from the display cause a chemical reaction in your retina, causing a nerve impulse to be sent which is interpretted by your brain.

The process then repeats.

Look how many ways energy was transferred from one form to another just to read a paragraph of text from the internet on a screen!

Quote:

I believe matter is condensed energy

Ditto; scientific evidence in the form of particle accelerators, as predicted by E=mc^2

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and energy is condensed imagination.

Complete non sequitur. How you get this I have no idea. Reason and evidence?

Also bearing in mind that science has evidence to suggest that imagination (like many other brain functions) is due to electro-chemical changes in the brain in a complex way. "Imagination" is a function of energy, and an abstract concept. You can't "condense" it because it is not a physical item. It's an output of the brain.

Quote:

It's not God, prayer is about focusing positive energy on whatever you pray for.

Pseudo-scientific nonsense. There is no such thing as "positive energy", this is the kind of terminology thrown around by people who go on about clairvoyancy, crystal healing, and other such crap.

Unless you want to provide a reason and evidence for your explanation?

And in any case, there is no reason to believe that this has any effect. Indeed studies on prayer - however you wish to define it - have shown that when patients don't know they are being prayed for, the outcomes are the same. Those that do know they are being prayed for actually fared worse. Source

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Our decisions are the only thing in existence that are truly immortal.

What a very bleak outlook on life.

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Existence does not happen unless something can sit and watch it all unfold.

Non sequitur. Existence is not dependant on perception. Things that are defined as being a perception (sound is an example) do require perception to be perceived. Your example is flawed; sounds require someone to hear them in order for them to be sounds. The same does not apply to reality.
09-09-2008, 09:42 AM
Xaqaria

I'm going to reiterate/agree with a lot that has been said already.

1. I am a firm believer that belief defines reality. Unfortunately, this process is extremely interdependant, as your percieved reality has signifigant control over your beliefs. It is not easy for anyone to control their own beliefs, especially when what they wish to believe is opposed by what they already believe and see. Prayer is one way to focus intent, and to control ones perceptions, which in turn control their reality. Through the act of prayer it is possible to give oneself reason to believe something they wish to be true can actually co-exist with their pre-accepted paradigm.

2. A plan is merely a pattern of events controlled by intention. Patterns shift, and new intentions over power old ones. Everything has purpose, but a thing's purpose may be very different from different perspectives.

3. Free will is both real and unreal. One is not free to do and think exactly as he pleases, because it is impossible to exist without being effected by the reality projected by others. Will is not exactly free, but it is not exactly illusory either. When one pushes, another pushes back. Neither's will is fully realized, and so neither is fully free. A consensus or middle way is always achieved.

Some people make reference to 'spinoza's god' as if what spinoza was talking about wasn't a god at all, but was merely blind nature. The problem is, neither spinoza nor many of the rest of us see the world as a whole as blind and purely mechanical, and pantheism (and panenthiesm even more so) is a great step different from naturalism or materialism.
09-09-2008, 03:48 PM
spockman

Quote:

1. Do you believe in praying? That is to say, do you believe that by praying God will alter what would have happened if you had not prayed?

Example: you were just hit by a large hurricane. You pray to God that you and your family will be safe and this means you survive instead of being killed.

2. Do you believe in God's plan? Which means that everything has a purpose as part of God's divine plan.

Example: the hurricane you were just hit by was created by God for a reason

3. Do you believe that God does not (or can't) interfere with free will? In other words, he can not magically interfere with someone's decision, or he
refuses to do so.

1. Yes
Genesis 20:7
Now return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live.
Genesis 25:21
Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren. The LORD answered his prayer, and his wife Rebekah became pregnant.
2. To a degree. But sometimes crap just happens
Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Ecclesiastes 9:11
I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all.
3. I think he can affect it, I don't know if he ever forces someone to do something but he can influence for his purpose.
Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
09-09-2008, 04:41 PM
Dizko

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewmandan

Prepare to face a wall of incomprehensible gibberish the likes of which you've never seen. Because whenever you ask a person to think critically about their most cherished beliefs, they always counter by spewing out pages and pages of nonsense to confuse the issue just enough so that you forget the question in the first place.

These people are merely happy that they have found what they believe to be the truth, and are very exited to share it at any opportunity- don't hate them.

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. He did not stop Adam from disobeying him, yet Hitler was not able to take over the world.
09-09-2008, 05:04 PM
drewmandan

Take this!
09-09-2008, 05:17 PM
Timothy Paradox

[QUOTE=Omnius Deus;895909]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Let me put it this way, if a tree falls in the forest and there's on around to hear it, then it did not make a sound.vExistence does not happen unless something can sit and watch it all unfold.

You seem to think that humans (and especially yourself) are pretty important.
That statement of yours sounds VERY self centered. "if I didn't see it, it didn't happen"...
09-10-2008, 12:06 AM
Original Poster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photolysis

There's no need for simple belief. Science has plenty of evidence that it does. In order to read this for instance, electro-chemical reactions in my brain caused other chemical reactions in my CNS and muscles, giving my muscles kinetic energy and G.P.E to type on the keyboard, converting them back in to electrical signals which were sent to the DV server as a combination of electrons and photons, written as magnetic dipoles on the HDD. The process repeates in reverse, and the photons from the display cause a chemical reaction in your retina, causing a nerve impulse to be sent which is interpretted by your brain.

The process then repeats.

Look how many ways energy was transferred from one form to another just to read a paragraph of text from the internet on a screen!

Ditto; scientific evidence in the form of particle accelerators, as predicted by E=mc^2

Belief is not simple, belief is based upon experience: experiencing evidence as it transfers, experiencing life. I believe that energy transfers because I've read it, I believe that matter is condensed enery because I've read it. Not just read it, this idea has been validated by the world in front of me. I never believe anything I can't validate with the reality in front of me. There is always a reality that supercedes all of your beliefs and knowledge. The only way to experience it as it truly is, is to give up judging reality and letting it exist as it is, without words or categories.

You're argument demonstrates you need to read something in a science book in order to believe it exists.

Quote:

Complete non sequitur. How you get this I have no idea. Reason and evidence?

Also bearing in mind that science has evidence to suggest that imagination (like many other brain functions) is due to electro-chemical changes in the brain in a complex way. "Imagination" is a function of energy, and an abstract concept. You can't "condense" it because it is not a physical item. It's an output of the brain.

You're making quite a few claims there without any evidence. Honestly, Scientists know diddly squat about the functions of the brain. Back in Athens they just decided one day to cast consciousess out of the picture and have since then been connecting the dots to try and prove the universe just exists as a non living entity.

If we have thoughts in our brain, based on neurons firing energy into each other, then doesn't that mean that the energy consists of information, as in ideas and concepts that are not material yet, but are somehow encoded in the energy our brain transfers.

Is it really so far fetched? How can airwaves, made up only of energy, send text messages between phones? Has it every struck you as odd that information encoded in airwaves are constantly just bouncing around and around? How can 30,000 songs and 500 movies fit on my computer?

Quote:

Pseudo-scientific nonsense. There is no such thing as "positive energy", this is the kind of terminology thrown around by people who go on about clairvoyancy, crystal healing, and other such crap.

Unless you want to provide a reason and evidence for your explanation?

Thus far I only have what I've read. I don't necessarily read modern day scholars. I prefer the older scholars that believed the entire universe existed within you. Those ones, I pay attention to, and they say positive energy transfers. And so far real life has only confirmed this. When you make eye contact with someone, you're sharing energy on a deeper level. it's like you're focusing you're energy. A smile is contagious, a frown is too.

Quote:

And in any case, there is no reason to believe that this has any effect. Indeed studies on prayer - however you wish to define it - have shown that when patients don't know they are being prayed for, the outcomes are the same. Those that do know they are being prayed for actually fared worse. Source

Well that is a good addition to my information on the subject of energy transfer. It does not yet disprove the idea, because there are so many possibilities, but it is something to consider.

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What a very bleak outlook on life.

Is it? When you make a decision, you must live with it for ever. SOoner or later, you must account for everything you have done, forgive yourself, and move on. Just because you've moved on does not mean the decision is erased, this world is what it is because of decisions. Existence has gone on forever already. It's already been going on for infinity. Everything it is as it is right now is the result of choices, whether well thought out or not. Everything changes, everything, whether you want it to or not. The past does not, and in the end the choices you make are the only real afterlife you'll get. Sure, you'll go to heaven or hell or above heaven or below hell or perhaps if you're really lucky you'll come back to the material world as a human being, but it changes. Your energy carries information, DNA being a stable, material root. Without a body, your energy and consciousness dissolves.

You have subtle bodies in other levels of existence, possibly, but who knows for certain?

Quote:

Non sequitur. Existence is not dependant on perception. Things that are defined as being a perception (sound is an example) do require perception to be perceived. Your example is flawed; sounds require someone to hear them in order for them to be sounds. The same does not apply to reality.

Why not? Can you prove it does not apply to reality? Where is this reality you speak of!

EDIT: Timothy, that is not my argument. Why argument is that experience creates reality. Sure, you have concepts and conclusions, models a information in your head but that's not reality, just assets to help you deal with reality. Reality is what is in front of you, what you are experiencing. Everything else is imagination.