A question for Christians who accept evolution.

The church I attend is an extremely fundamentalist, Bible thumping, southern Baptist church. The pastor there is adamantly opposed to the teaching of evolution and has many times referred to it as a "demonic lie." His usual sermons consist of "Christians have to take a literal interpretation of Genesis," and "evolution is just a theory." However, in his latest frustrated tirade against evolution, he raised a question that I can't answer.

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Originally Posted by Pastor

Recently there has been a movement of Christians who accept evolution as scientific truth, and believe that God is behind the process. For those "Christians" (and yes, he actually air quoted) I have just one question: What happened to early versions of man who's cognitive skills weren't developed enough to understand that Jesus is lord? God couldn't just let them into heaven, as they didn't know that Jesus is lord, but could he send them to hell either?

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He then went on to make mention to original sin, and how that doesn't add up either, but I was really tired and fell asleep soon after. Any answers would be very appreciated.

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God couldn't just let them into heaven, as they didn't know that Jesus is lord, but could he send them to hell either?

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I hate to be taking part in this, but if it helps any in arguing against your pastor, well, here you go.

Beliefs are founded entirely on language. If one does not possess language, one cannot possess a belief. Early man did not have language. Neither do animals. Early man, therefor, lacked the capacity to believe, and could not be held responsible for what they were not capable of.

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Originally Posted by Invader

I hate to be taking part in this, but if it helps any in arguing against your pastor, well, here you go.

Beliefs are founded entirely on language. If one does not possess language, one cannot possess a belief. Early man did not have language. Neither do animals. Early man, therefor, lacked the capacity to believe, and could not be held responsible for what they were not capable of.

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So by that logic, they automatically went to heaven?

Tell your pastor he is going to Hell for saying, "God couldn't..." Tell him God is omnipotent and has no limits on his abilities. Then PLEASE tell me his response to that.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Tell your pastor he is going to Hell for saying, "God couldn't..." Tell him God is omnipotent and has no limits on his abilities. Then PLEASE tell me his response to that.

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Yes.
This post is Win.

I don't necessarily believe in Evolution, but I believe things have adapted to their environment...Like animals changing so they have more chances of survival. Same goes for us humans.

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Originally Posted by Fableflame

So by that logic, they automatically went to heaven?

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It would just mean that the religion can't hold them accountable for the fulfillment of the "worship Jesus or suffer" belief. It's not as if the religion can hold anyone accountable for anything anyways. Pastors are simple human beings. They have as much real power as anyone else.

Did Moses, Abraham, Daniel or others go to a fiery hell of torment becaue they didn't believe in Jesus? Jesus wasn't even born yet.

I don't believe in evolution (as I understand the theory to be- that man evolved from apes and so on), but I do believe in adaptation.

The Bible states that 1,000 years is as a day to God and a day as if a thousand years. God's time table, therefore, is not the same as our timetable.
The events in Genesis, however, seem to go along in unison with those of evolution (i.e. the earth was created, then sea creatures, then grass etc, then flying creatures, mammals and bugs etc, then man and woman-- I hope I got it right lol)

If there were human-like people before Adam and Eve, they were more human than animal and neither heaven nor hell await them.

I don't believe in a fiery hell and only a limited number of people go to heaven. The rest of mankind is to be resurrected or live into the establishing of a "new world" here on Earth.
Among those, will be men and women of faith who perished before Christ ascended to heaven. (Christ instituted a "new covenant" for "the kingdom" and such was never even a prospect before him. Man was created to reside on earth. They were never meant to die. God didn't tell Adam that if he sinned he would go to heaven or hell. God simply said "you will die" and 'return to dust'.)

While on the topic of evolution, however, I have a wider acceptance of the belief. God said that creatures would multiply according to their "kind" but what exactly does that include? Through the centuries we have come to have a more vast array of dogs, cats, birds etc. Some has been through the process of selective breeding, others have occurred from a more natural degradation (?) of the species (tribes of people with dwarfism for instance). Did lizards "adapt" or "evolve" from birds? I don't know. I don't know what the original genetic makeup looked like (and neither do I now lol).

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What happened to early versions of man who's cognitive skills weren't developed enough to understand that Jesus is lord?

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Your pastor is an idiot.

I suppose the universe started when Jesus was born did it?

No, not even history according to Bible is that messed up; many people lived and died before Jesus existed and indeed before word of the Christian God. Indeed many people still live in communities where they never hear of Jesus or Christianity.

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I don't necessarily believe in Evolution, but I believe things have adapted to their environment...Like animals changing

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Um, yes. Organisms changing is in fact the definition of evolution.

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Originally Posted by hellohihello

I don't necessarily believe in Evolution, but I believe things have adapted to their environment...Like animals changing so they have more chances of survival. Same goes for us humans.

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Lawl.

Your pastor's question is, of course, based on the Judeo-Christian assumption that God is the only god...or that if there are other gods, God is the only one to worship. What if Allah is the one true god? Will we be denied admittance to heaven for not worshiping him?

The main point is, if gods are supposed to be all-forgiving, and unconditionally love all their creations, then what would they gain from denying a certain group of people entrance to Paradise simply because they had no knowledge of the gods in question? Perhaps if those people lived a pampered life without anything even remotely resembling hardship, it'd be somewhat understandable, but...

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Originally Posted by Xei

Your pastor is an idiot.

I suppose the universe started when Jesus was born did it?

No, not even history according to Bible is that messed up; many people lived and died before Jesus existed and indeed before word of the Christian God. Indeed many people still live in communities where they never hear of Jesus or Christianity.

Um, yes. Organisms changing is in fact the definition of evolution.

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Never thought I'd see this day but, Im actually going to agree with this. I would say Xei hit the nail on the coffin. My words exactly. :goodjob2:

One thing I think I need to clarify is that the Pastor doesn't believe that people before Jesus automatically go to hell, I think I just phrased what he was saying wrong. He's talked about how Moses and all those other old guys are in heaven, I just don't remember the gist of what he said.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Tell your pastor he is going to Hell for saying, "God couldn't..." Tell him God is omnipotent and has no limits on his abilities. Then PLEASE tell me his response to that.

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Hah, I tend to avoid making inflammatory comments, but it would be nice to knock him from his high horse.

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Originally Posted by Invader

Beliefs are founded entirely on language. If one does not possess language, one cannot possess a belief. Early man did not have language. Neither do animals. Early man, therefor, lacked the capacity to believe, and could not be held responsible for what they were not capable of.

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That's a really good point.

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Originally Posted by Xei

Your pastor is an idiot.

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I've been wanting to before I go to college.

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Originally Posted by Xei

I suppose the universe started when Jesus was born did it?

No, not even history according to Bible is that messed up; many people lived and died before Jesus existed and indeed before word of the Christian God. Indeed many people still live in communities where they never hear of Jesus or Christianity.

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I think I put his ideas down wrong, as I mentioned above.

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Originally Posted by Lëzen

Your pastor's question is, of course, based on the Judeo-Christian assumption that God is the only god...or that if there are other gods, God is the only one to worship. What if Allah is the one true god? Will we be denied admittance to heaven for not worshiping him?

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He'd fire back some bullshit about faith and how Allah is a false deity.

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Originally Posted by Lëzen

The main point is, if gods are supposed to be all-forgiving, and unconditionally love all their creations, then what would they gain from denying a certain group of people entrance to Paradise simply because they had no knowledge of the gods in question? Perhaps if those people lived a pampered life without anything even remotely resembling hardship, it'd be somewhat understandable, but...

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That's my thinking on the issue (even thought I don't believe in the afterlife), but the God that the Pastor describes is usually not quite so forgiving. He pretty much describes the typical "fire and brimstone" and ultra vengeful God.

But yeah guys, thanks for the answers. I have a feeling this topic will be coming up a lot in youth group discussions.

The scope here is so narrow. Why not ask where braindamaged people go after they die. Does he answer that question?

There WAS a fall in secular history. It was when the human ego was inflated by cultural evolution which leads to our possessiveness, sin, etc.

This has been covered in another post entitled i'm scared of hell. God will show mercy on those that can't understand (babies, young children, mentally handicapped, those in far regions of the earth where they couldn't have had a chance to hear about the word of God etc...) If you believe in evolution, ( I don't) i think God would have mercy on them if they cannot understand. I do believe in adaptation, not evolution.

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those in far regions of the earth where they couldn't have had a chance to hear about the word of God

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So that means when Christians spread their message, they damn people to hell who otherwise would not have gone.

Damn Christians!

Early hominids would have existed long before Jesus, so they couldn't have been Christians.

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Originally Posted by davej

This has been covered in another post entitled i'm scared of hell. God will show mercy on those that can't understand (babies, young children, mentally handicapped, those in far regions of the earth where they couldn't have had a chance to hear about the word of God etc...) If you believe in evolution, ( I don't) i think God would have mercy on them if they cannot understand. I do believe in adaptation, not evolution.

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The funny thing is, looking back on it, he (the pastor) has mentioned a lot of stuff about 'accountability' and how babies who died will go to heaven. But his stance on evolution is so hypocritical it's almost funny.

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Originally Posted by Photolysis

So that means when Christians spread their message, they damn people to hell who otherwise would not have gone.

Damn Christians!

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I request a Christian response to that point.

That statement is outrageous. A loving God wouldn't send anyone to hell if they haven't even had a chance to listen. The pastor needs to resign, and this is why I don't go to church.

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Originally Posted by davej

This has been covered in another post entitled i'm scared of hell. God will show mercy on those that can't understand (babies, young children, mentally handicapped, those in far regions of the earth where they couldn't have had a chance to hear about the word of God etc...) If you believe in evolution, ( I don't) i think God would have mercy on them if they cannot understand. I do believe in adaptation, not evolution.

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Then everybody will go to heaven, since everybody is "mentally handicapped" one way or the other.

Catbus, will you ask your preacher if "my friend" gets off the hook for being mentally handicapped because "he's" stoned 24/7?

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Originally Posted by davej

I do believe in adaptation, not evolution.

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:doh:

See this is a classic case of how confusing things become within christianity once words in the bible become transgressed. THis problem doesn't even exist once the truth is revealed properly as to what happens to people when they Die. They simply no longer exist, people only exist within "Gods memory" and before anyone say anything about Gods memory make sure you take a close look at my "Air Quotes".

Rebuttal: If animals can't make it into heaven, then what do people eat there?

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Originally Posted by Replicon

Rebuttal: If animals can't make it into heaven, then what do people eat there?

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They eat people. If you're not a cannibal in Heaven, you're considered a pussy.

Eating, in heaven? Can you starve to death in heaven?

Yeah but when you do you just go to heaven again.

I personally always believed that God will accept you as long a you accept him, even if you do not believe in him.

If you are a good person, you help others, you work for your community and live to the standards God set, then you are fine. Its just difficult to live to such a standard if you do not believe in him or any type of god, which is why he set out a path to help guide people to him.

If you spent your time helping the homeless, and you knew everyone in your neighborhood and were good friends with them and spoke with them on a daily biases, and you spend time speaking with your friends and family about what you believe in and how to become a better person, do you still need to go to church? Probably not, I am sure god would forgive, because you are leading the life he wishes you to. Most people wont do all of that, so they go to church for it.

I know exactly what you mean. It doesn't make sense to me that someone who lives their life just trying to be a good person would go to hell because they don't go to church, but someone who is a total asshole would go to heaven because they do.

Its not about just going to church or just being a good person. In the Christian faith the only way to heaven is through Jesus... He is our savior. He died on the cross for us. asking God to forgive and inviting Jesus into your life as your lord and savior is the only way to heaven. The road to hell is lined with good intentions.

Again, what's up with all the name calling. Can you not understand respect for ones personal beliefs. If you do not want to hear what I am saying then stop asking these questions.

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Originally Posted by davej

Its not about just going to church or just being a good person. In the Christian faith the only way to heaven is through Jesus... He is our savior. He died on the cross for us. asking God to forgive and inviting Jesus into your life as your lord and savior is the only way to heaven. The road to hell is lined with good intentions.

Again, what's up with all the name calling. Can you not understand respect for ones personal beliefs. If you do not want to hear what I am saying then stop asking these questions.

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Is there anything God can't do?

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Is there anything God can't do?

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Nope.

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Originally Posted by davej

Can you not understand respect for ones personal beliefs.

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Davej, you are a good person, but you did not accept my god as lord, and as such deserve to burn eternally in a pit of fire.

Can you respect my beliefs?



Beliefs are tolerable when they don't involve hateful thoughts of others. Hateful beliefs should never be tolerated.

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Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Nope.

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So he could get rid of suffering without there being a problem with doing it?

The only thing that God cannot do is act contrary to His own character and nature. For example, Titus 1:2 states that He cannot lie. Because He is holy (Isaiah 6:3; 1 Peter 1:16), He cannot sin. Because He is just, He cannot merely overlook sin. Because Christ paid the penalty for sin, He is now able to forgive those who will turn to Christ (Isaiah 53:1-12; Romans 3:26).

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Originally Posted by davej

The only thing that God cannot do is act contrary to His own character and nature. For example, Titus 1:2 states that He cannot lie. Because He is holy (Isaiah 6:3; 1 Peter 1:16), He cannot sin. Because He is just, He cannot merely overlook sin. Because Christ paid the penalty for sin, He is now able to forgive those who will turn to Christ (Isaiah 53:1-12; Romans 3:26).

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Then there is something he cannot do. Can he make suffering unnecessary without there being a problem with doing that?

[QUOTE=Invader;1145877]Davej, you are a good person, but you did not accept my god as lord, and as such deserve to burn eternally in a pit of fire.

Can you respect my beliefs?

If those are your true beliefs then yes. I may be inclined to ask you about your religion out of curosity, not to belittle or challenge. I took a course in college, Religions of the World, and I did find it very interesting and I can respect other peoples religions and faith. Just because I am a Christian doesn't mean I can't respect someone eles' religion.

Dave, it looks like we posted at about the same time. Make sure you see my last post.

Can we not say that we cause ourselves to suffer?

Can we not say that we cause ourselves to suffer?

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Originally Posted by davej

If those are your true beliefs then yes.

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They were an example used to make a point, not my actual beliefs, just so that we're clear. In any event, I congratulate you for being able to tolerate such negative feelings towards others. It's a characteristic I lack.

I can repect another person's beliefs. It is what they believe is the truth. Who am i to say that they are wrong. I believe the Christian faith is the truth and expect the same respect because those are my beliefs.

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Originally Posted by davej

Can we not say that we cause ourselves to suffer?

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No we cannot. We suffer because of the way the world works. I'm in no way taking responsibility if a meteorite hits me in the head right now.

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Originally Posted by Catbus

That's my thinking on the issue (even thought I don't believe in the afterlife), but the God that the Pastor describes is usually not quite so forgiving. He pretty much describes the typical "fire and brimstone" and ultra vengeful God.

But yeah guys, thanks for the answers. I have a feeling this topic will be coming up a lot in youth group discussions.

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and that is the God of the Old testament, and God's laws do not change, the Bible says that to. Hell even Jesus said he hadn't come to change his fathers law but fulfil them. Which sounds odd as that would suggest stones would magically kill every homosexual or something, but it sounds to me he means the Old testament is still valid, even though most Christians say they do not have to follow the laws of the OT.

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Originally Posted by davej

Can we not say that we cause ourselves to suffer?

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How did the families of 9/11 victims cause themselves to suffer? How do families of Tsunami victims cause themselves to suffer? How do parents of children with cancer cause themselves to suffer? How do those children cause themselves to suffer? How do people with chemical depressions cause themselves to suffer? How do rape victims cause themselves to suffer? How did the European Jews of the 1940's cause themselves to suffer?

"At that very season there were certain ones present that reported to him about the Gal·i·le′ans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2*So in reply he said to them: “Do YOU imagine that these Gal·i·le′ans were proved worse sinners than all other Gal·i·le′ans because they have suffered these things? 3*No, indeed, I tell YOU; but, unless YOU repent, YOU will all likewise be destroyed. 4*Or those eighteen upon whom the tower in Si·lo′am fell, thereby killing them, do YOU imagine that they were proved greater debtors than all other men inhabiting Jerusalem? 5*No, indeed, I tell YOU; but, unless YOU repent, YOU will all be destroyed in the same way.”"-- Luke 13:1-5

And ironically, Ecclesiastes 9:11 says
"I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the wise also have the food, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all."

Sometimes bad things simply happen. It doesn't mean the person did it to themselves or that Satan directly caused it to happen. Sometimes it comes down to "being in the wrong place at the wrong time".

God is not stepping in at this time because he has to let the issue of His Sovereignty be settled. In the Garden of Eden, Satan called God a liar. Satan told Adam and Eve, basically, that they could choose for themselves what is good and evil and rule themselves perfectly fine without God.

Then at Job 2:4-5 Satan told God that people wouldn't serve Him if they were suffering.
"But Satan answered Jehovah and said: “Skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul [life]. 5*For a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch as far as his bone and his flesh [and see] whether he will not curse you to your very face.”"
Satan didn't say 'everything that Job has' he said "man" (and by extension, women).

That issue needs to be settled as well, but only we as individuals can settle it. Countless people already have.

It amazes me that people understand certain things about governments but never apply that knowledge to God's Kingdom.
Let's say God and his government were here on earth. God's a real person and so are the angels. Here comes Satan who goes out into the kingdom and tells the people that their ruler is lying to them and they don't need him to tell them what to do. All of the angels see what's going on. How does the king react? Does he kill Satan? What would the angels think? Does he kill the peasants and start over once they sided with Satan? What would that prove?
The King is very wise and says: "Okay. You don't need me? Let's see how well you do on your own. I told you if you ate from that tree you will die. That's because when I kick you out of my Kingdom to create your own, you'll no longer have access to the food* that made you live forever."

When the people leave, they try out different forms of governments but none of them work perfectly. They tend to become filled with corrupt people with their own agendas. War and crime and suffering result.

God will return however. But will we be found traitors? The story has to play out or God wouldn't be just. No, it isn't just that people suffer and die. But God didn't create the problem.



*I'm not literally saying that people could have lived forever by eating certain things in the Garden. It's an illustrative example only.

I have to look for it, but it says somewhere in the Bible that people who have not had exposure to/capacity to understand the Christian religion will be sent to Heaven as a show of mercy.


/thread :)

Ummm, i havent read any other posts besides the first one... but tell your pastor that humans haven't evolved much in the last 2000 years... and thats when jesus was around. so... how ask him how the fuck they could know about jesus before he existed.

Plus, tell him the story of jesus and god is just a theory as well as evolution.... and it's about believing... and he's a dumbass.

(of course I read al lthe posts after i post, and everyone mentioned this) sorry, just got quick to posting after reading the first one... lol

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

So he could get rid of suffering without there being a problem with doing it?

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Yep.

Thanks for all the input, guys. My questions have been answered fully, but if there's any growing discussions then feel free to continue them in this thread.

I'd answer the question about pre-homo sapian creatures going to heaven with another question. "Do animals go to heaven or hell?"

afljalkfjaklfjkladjflkajflajfl

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Jesus himself teaches that Heaven is WITHIN YOU. He does not teach that heaven is a magical place in the sky by which you gain entry to.

This is why Jesus makes parables that heaven is so easy to 'get' to, that any child can do it. And its entry way as thin as an eye of a needle. Jesus also makes comments that nothing you can do, no righteous deed, is ever enough to get you into heaven. Why is being good not good enough to get into heaven???

Jesus comments about Heaven might seem confusing at first, but that is only if you are imagining he is talking about a place.

The reason no good deed can ever bring you to heaven, is because heaven is not a 'place' you go to.

It is a state of being. And anyone who is familiar with their eastern philosophy of heaven can easily find the parables in Jesus' teaching. It is only people who aren't a familiar with eastern teachings *such as church-goers* who don't realize that Jesus is talking about heaven being a state of being.

it is because it is a state of being that it is 'within you'. And no activity outside of your being can take you there. Understand the subtlety.

You don't need to 'do' anything to be 'happy'. And you can 'do' a happy activity and still be emotionally miserable. That's the difference between doing and being. That's the differencing between 'going' to heaven, and 'BEING' in heaven.

it is because it is a state of being that Jesus says there is only one way to reach God - and that is through the Christ.

these words have been ripped apart, misused, and misunderstood. At no point in time does Jesus teach that you must accept some bloody sacrifice to God to get into heaven. His words were chosen for a reason.

first he did not say heaven. he said God. second he did not say that you must believe in Christ. He said 'through' Christ.

Next we need to define what Christ is. According church goers Christ is a man sacrificed on a cross some 2000 years ago.

But Jesus has a different meaning when he says Christ. And he explains Christ is: The Way, the Truth, the Life.

So let's do some sample algebra and rephrase what Jesus is saying. The only way to reach God is through the Way, the Truth and the Life. It has NOTHING do to with accepting some bloody sacrifice 2000 years ago. It has everything to do with a certain way of being. This way of being does not require church membership or attendance. A way of being is not something you do or are a part of.

Jesus spoke in parables for the same reason eastern teachers did. So that the pupil can come up higher by figuring it out for themselves. The purpose is not to spoon feed you, but give you the opportunity for gnosis.

God is in heaven.

And Jesus teaches heaven is within you.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put one and two together to figure out..that Jesus is teaching that God is Within You.

I'm too lazy to find it, but it's there somewhere in the bible. Jesus makes a comment that at a future time he will reject some so-called followers. The so-called followers will tell Jesus that they did as he said. But he will reject them because they did not accept his true message and they are hypocrites.

When I first read it was interesting that he was talking about a future point in time. About a future group of followers, who are hypocrites. Very fitting don't you think?

how hypocritical Christianity has become, when they have denied the very heart of Jesus teachings. By keeping God this angry distant being in the sky, and denying the true being God within them at every turn. And worse, denying the God within others, including homosexuals.

To answer your question shortly its retarded to imagine a God sending any persons to hell (human or not) for not accepting a bloody sacrifice.

The church is destined to fall because it has denied God

That is a very interesting concept Juroara but take a look at this...

Starting with John 3:15
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Also, can you back up your references with scripture from the Bible please

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Originally Posted by davej

Also, can you back up your references with scripture from the Bible please

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yes, please do that - lawl!

and may I advise you davej, that institutionalized religon is extremely dangerous to the human race.

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Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

yes, please do that - lawl!

and may I advise you davej, that institutionalized religon is extremely dangerous to the human race.

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How so?

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Originally Posted by Invader

I hate to be taking part in this, but if it helps any in arguing against your pastor, well, here you go.

Beliefs are founded entirely on language. If one does not possess language, one cannot possess a belief. Early man did not have language. Neither do animals. Early man, therefor, lacked the capacity to believe, and could not be held responsible for what they were not capable of.

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Ok I have a few problems with these statements. You say that if you don't have language you can't have beliefs. That is wrong. I think my cat believes that if I whistle it means I want her to come to me because she always does. I shoudn't need any more examples for this statement. For the starter of this forum: by this logic all non-christians would automatically go to hell. And I don't know who your preacher person is but he sounds like a complete a**. Whatever happened to "all men are created equal"?

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Originally Posted by Xei

Your pastor is an idiot.

I suppose the universe started when Jesus was born did it?

No, not even history according to Bible is that messed up; many people lived and died before Jesus existed and indeed before word of the Christian God. Indeed many people still live in communities where they never hear of Jesus or Christianity.

Um, yes. Organisms changing is in fact the definition of evolution.

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I agree with this 100%. By defenition, evolution is long term adaptation. But again, I'm not saying we came from apes.

One more thing I would like to add. I'm not racist and I don't believe this applies to all Christians, but most of the Christians I know and talk to and hear about (your pastor) seem to be close-minded to suggestion. A lot of the ones I know refuse to even debate the topic at all. I for one enjoy debating things in general. :)

I just felt like posting one of my favorite George Carlin jokes real quick for your discussion. I won't get it exactly right.

These preachers expect us to believe that if you break any of these ten rules (the ten commandments) that you will go the the worst place imaginable where you will burn and suffer in fire and brimstone with agony and pain and suffering for all of eternity. But he loves you.

Personally, I believe that hell doesn't exist. And you'll say "Oh then where do the bad people go?" I say they are not actually bad they are just raised that way and when they go to heaven God makes them realize the error of their ways and that makes them a better person.

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Originally Posted by Mattlantis

I just felt like posting one of my favorite George Carlin jokes real quick for your discussion. I won't get it exactly right.

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That's why we have youtube:

:banana: Oh Ricky you're so fine. :banana: