Published in Nature Neuroscience: 77% induction rate with electrodes on the scalp at 40 Hertz

Wow! I was offline for a few days and the thread got alive again!
So, to sum things up a bit, appart from jeffg and Michael (and possibly many others) trying solo experimets, we have LucidSage working on a comercial device (working on safety issues at the moment), the oneirics team promising similar work in the future and the Luciding team having the decive ready and shipping in a few days...or are they???
Well, the whole thing is very-very suspicius in my view and similar in some ways to the Luci fraud, as Highlander suggested in his link..
Take jeffg for example. He posted clear photos of his assembled device as well as the Lucidscribe recordins.
The Luciding team makes BIG claims while posting nothing convincing...
The "devices" on their heads, are different sizes on different photos (!), worn differently, and seem like empty-foam models to me... the very few making-of photos seem rather fake..
The CGI poster-images are unrealistic, to say the least, regarding both size and design and when someone asked where are the sensors, they replied: hidden in the head band.... as for evidence of their claims or details on their method...nothing...
The subscription model (pay every month to have dreams... ) is obviusly also a bad idea - their reasoning is that price would be much higher for a single purchase and subcriptions will provide them guaranteed feedback to get ready for their Kickstarter campain.
On top of that, there is their paypal issue - i guess paypal can spot frauds easily...
On the other hand, they did have a stand at the IDCEE exhibition and they give away their names and details, sth a fraud company usually does not do... I quess we will have to wait a few more days for their customers feedback - thewolf16, please post some photos if you actually receive a device!!

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Q: Can any product achieve 99% lucidity?
A: No.

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Well I personally want to believe that yes... I just dont know if the time has come yet for that. There is jeffg that claimed almost 100% success rate, and I pesonally believed him more than the Luiciding team and their claims, as he has posted more convincing evidence than they have... he has buid a working device for start!

P.s. Michael has just posted photos of his setup.

I will post pictures and a review as soon as i will receive my Luciding Headband. :)

You can see new pictures of the prototypes on facebook now. :)

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Originally Posted by thewolf16

You can see new pictures of the prototypes on facebook now. :)

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Hi, I have just seen the photos, they are way better than their previous ones. Seems they have made real devices after all. Good for you!

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Originally Posted by thewolf16

You can see new pictures of the prototypes on facebook now. :)

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I'm a bit baffled by the electrode positioning in relation to the standard 10-20 montage. It looks like some vain attempt at Fp1 and Fp2 (?) although the reference(s) are wrong.

Example A
Example B

Compare this with the montage used by Ursula Voss, et al:
Montage and Stimulation Potentials : Induction of self awareness in dreams through frontal low current stimulation of gamma activity : Nature Neuroscience : Nature Publishing Group

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Originally Posted by Highlander

I'm a bit baffled by the electrode positioning

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Hi,
I agree but this is only one of the many problems with these images.
The first models are just rubber bands with battery cases and wires...
How can these ever be working models?
As for the electrode placement, they have it different in almost every photo.
But again Jeffg had excellent results using similar placement with the pictures and not with drVoss (he has shared a diagram with three electrodes, all in the forehead). So, I don't really know if drVoss configuration is even necessary for a Succesful setup!

What do you mean with FP1 and FP2?

I think SearcherTMR is right. You just want to stimulate the "prefrontal cortex" (for the consciousness) and not the "parieto-occipital cortex" (for the intelligence) so i think Dr. Voss´s setup isn´t necessary. When Jeff´s setup is working why shouldn´t it with Luciding?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...fbf3213f33ab0b

Awww... After seeing this i want this device so badly :armflap:
Shame i won't probably have money for subscriptions n' stuff

Hopefully somebody will publish tACS LDs with no subscription soon soon :D

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Originally Posted by MisakaMikoto

Awww... After seeing this i want this device so badly :armflap:
Shame i won't probably have money for subscriptions n' stuff

Hopefully somebody will publish tACS LDs with no subscription soon soon :D

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Hi Misaka.
A few days ago, I had an idea: I think I know how to make a DIY tACS device for less than 20€ and of course without subscriptions and stuff (provided you have an iOS or Android device)!
But first, I am going to test my idea for the next days and if results are positive, I will give the trick away! ...and I think it will be big news! Hope it will work!

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Originally Posted by thewolf16

I think SearcherTMR is right. You just want to stimulate the "prefrontal cortex" (for the consciousness) and not the "parieto-occipital cortex" (for the intelligence) so i think Dr. Voss´s setup isn´t necessary.

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This is what the thread is about.

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Originally Posted by thewolf16

When Jeff´s setup is working why shouldn´t it with Luciding?

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Because Jeff is honest, upfront and has shared his results unlike luciding!

I meant with "Dr. Voss´s setup isn´t necessary" the both electrodes behind the ears.

Luciding is honest too. Ive got an answer for every question. And in fact, Jeff didn´t shared more than Luciding. Only time will tell if it really works . I will write some review of Luciding and everyone who want can read it. I hate it when somebody badmouth something as a matter of principle. Be more open-minded. I wonder that you believe in lucid dreaming with your limited point of view.

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Originally Posted by Highlander

This is what the thread is about.

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The thread is about the article and it's implications.
This does not mean the article is the absolute truth! Beeing an Orthopaedic surgeon myself, I know that publishing in a prestigious journal does not nececcarily mean the article is honest or even correct in its conclusions. An in this thread the article and it's consequences faced enough criticism already.... why not electrode placement?

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Originally Posted by Highlander

Because Jeff is honest, upfront and has shared his results unlike luciding!

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I agree that Jeff seems more honest in every way - from the devices he constructed and shared, to the EEG recordings, to his statistics and results. Luciding had shared basically nothing before the recent challenging - they did answer all questions but in a vague and general way...
Nevertheless, the last pics they shared seem to suggest that they have done their homework (in contrast the LUCI fraud creators had never build any prototypes), so I suggest it is best to wait for their customers feedback before concluding that they are fraudulent!

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Originally Posted by thewolf16

Luciding is honest too.

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Just like Genosans!

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Originally Posted by thewolf16

I hate it when somebody badmouth something as a matter of principle. Be more open-minded. I wonder that you believe in lucid dreaming with your limited point of view.

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I also hate seeing people being given false hope and being ripped off in the process.

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Originally Posted by jeffg

Hi SearcherTMR
The setup works great now and I have been fine tuning the lucid dream triggering down to almost 100% strike rate using the WBTB method

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Hi Jeff. I have finally decided to build a similar device myself - cause I didn't have any other Lucids after my initial success with SSILD...
Since you are the only one that had documented success with tACS (Michael has not replicated your results yet), I would like to ask you a few things, if you are kind enough to answer:
1. What was your tACS electrodes placement? Did you use 2 or 4 like drVoss? Did the polarity matter?
2. How strong was the subjective feeling if you triggered tACS while awake? Was it barely noticeable, or was it quite strong and just bearable?
3. What did you change that made the 70% success rate become almost 100% ? Duration of the tACS, intensity or placement of the electrodes, or sth else?
4. Appart from the 40hz, what other setting are important? I know there are TENS and EMS modes on these devices. Is one better than the other?
5. The lucidscribe is running on a laptop PC or an android Device with USB port? If on a PC, isn't it noisy to sleep beside it?
Thank you in advance for your time!

@Highlander

Either it works or it doesn´t. I´m here to find it out. I don´t know it either for 100% but it sounds to plausible to be a fake. But when it´s working the sceptics will say: "He is lying." But it makes no difference to me. You will get a honest review with dream reports from me. When it´s not working i will say that too.

Why shouldn´t it working? You see on the prototype pictures a ARM-embedded Board, Neurosky EEG-Asic and electrodes. I can´t say for sure that it will work but i´m optimistic because of Jeff´s reports and Dr. Voss´s work. A healthy scepticism is good but to write something completly off is kinda ignorant.

I´ve already stated my point of view so i will give it up and my next posts will be the reviews.

The DIY device sounds really interesting, but the price is going to be much higher.

An EEG is expensive, same thing about tacs. No way to finance such a device with less than 20€. But keep us informed please :)

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Originally Posted by marc119

The DIY device sounds really interesting, but the price is going to be much higher.

An EEG is expensive, same thing about tacs. No way to finance such a device with less than 20€. But keep us informed please :)

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Hi Marc.
I will not use EEG or a dedicated tACS device - I know that for less than 20€ you cannot get either.
REM detection will be acomplished with my iphone (DreamZ app) as in the past - this was never the problem. The thing is how to convert a 40hz audio signal (that the iphone will play during REM) into electric current. Jeff used EMS devices (that are not dedicated tACS devices) with success - the upixie can even convert a 40hz audio signal to EMS but is 100€ and needs a PC to connect to. Cheap EMS devices start on Aliexpress at 8€ but their frequency is not adjustable (no 40hz). Can you connect the dots?
If I am successfull, I will share the whole setup!

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Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

Hi Marc.
I will not use EEG or a dedicated tACS device - I know that for less than 20€ you cannot get either.
REM detection will be acomplished with my iphone (DreamZ app) as in the past - this was never the problem. The thing is how to convert a 40hz audio signal (that the iphone will play during REM) into electric current. Jeff used EMS devices (that are not dedicated tACS devices) with success - the upixie can even convert a 40hz audio signal to EMS but is 100€ and needs a PC to connect to. Cheap EMS devices start on Aliexpress at 8€ but their frequency is not adjustable (no 40hz). Can you connect the dots?
If I am successfull, I will share the whole setup!

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You don't need EEG either but that would be the case if you would use WBTB instead :yeah
Like that:
1. Wake up after 6 - 8 hours of sleep
2. Turn on tACS and use some kind of relay to make it activate 5 - 15 minutes later
3. Fall asleep quickly
4. High chance that tACS will activate while your in Dream World...

Have you guys wondered or experimented what would be the effect if stimulation occurs at a random time, which is not REM? Would one become lucid then?

Also, as Misaka mentioned you can time the stimulation (which is recommended anyways) to occur after enough sleep, at which time REM cycles are closely packed. Therefore, no REM detection would be required.

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

Have you guys wondered or experimented what would be the effect if stimulation occurs at a random time, which is not REM? Would one become lucid then?

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Did not get that. Why would you want a stimulation during non-REM? tACS is supposed to raise awareness and convert a normal dream to a lucid one - not start one out of non-REM sleep...
Is that even possible?

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

Also, as Misaka mentioned you can time the stimulation (which is recommended anyways) to occur after enough sleep, at which time REM cycles are closely packed. Therefore, no REM detection would be required.

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Ok, this is another way this can work but detecting REM and triggering only during REM gives you more reliable results -- at least that is the theory if I am not wrong. And REM detection with an app has proven quite easy and reliable in my experience! (I also have the REM-dreamer mask but it is very uncomfortable to sleep with )

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Did not get that. Why would you want a stimulation during non-REM? tACS is supposed to raise awareness and convert a normal dream to a lucid one - not start one out of non-REM sleep...

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Sure, it's possible to be lucid during different sleep phases including NREM. Some even believe that we go through a short phase of NREM when wilding. So, since it is possible, I was wondering if someone has tried stimulation at different times. I am curious whether this would lead to lucidity as well. Most subjects in the original study had no? ld experience, but we here have some experience. If NREM stimulation results in a NREM ld, perhaps an experienced lder could wait it out or even stimulate REM, the way we wait for a new scene to form or actively participate in its creation when we are in the void...

It would expand the scope of usage and perhaps facilitate the device development? If it works of course.

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Ok, this is another way this can work but detecting REM and triggering only during REM gives you more reliable results -- at least that is the theory if I am not wrong. And REM detection with an app has proven quite easy and reliable in my experience! (I also have the REM-dreamer mask but it is very uncomfortable to sleep with )

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Can you explain how this app actually tracks REM? I understand these things monitor your movement in bed if you use a phone nearby or even a hand device but they know the REM only post factum, after you have moved which means you have woken up. Or is there a different way the app measures it?

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

Sure, it's possible to be lucid during different sleep phases including NREM. Some even believe that we go through a short phase of NREM when wilding. So, since it is possible, I was wondering if someone has tried stimulation at different times. I am curious whether this would lead to lucidity as well. Most subjects in the original study had no? ld experience, but we here have some experience. If NREM stimulation results in a NREM ld, perhaps an experienced lder could wait it out or even stimulate REM, the way we wait for a new scene to form or actively participate in its creation when we are in the void...

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Thanks a lot NyxCC!
I didn't know all that - or maybe I once did, but I had forgotten...
So... Why not try it? This makes things even easier! The cheapest TENS device with frequency settings (that can be set to 40 Hz) that I have found starts at 15€ (TENS 3000). All you need to do is tigger it with a time delay relay (~5€)... and there you go! Wow! It is so cheap and easy to do, that I hope many others (appart from me) will try and report! :santa:

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

Can you explain how this app actually tracks REM? I understand these things monitor your movement in bed if you use a phone nearby or even a hand device but they know the REM only post factum, after you have moved which means you have woken up. Or is there a different way the app measures it?

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No, this is the way they track sleep stages - with the buit-in accelerometer. The process is called actigraphy and there are also dedicated devices called actigraphs or actimetry sensors. The idea is to not just monitor movement in real time and tell the sleep stage, but actually throu complex algorithms and statistics of normal sleep patterns, to GUESS at what sleep stage you are in. So, you are right, it cannot tell for sure that you are in REM (although in rem you have muscle contractions - so there might be some real-time indication when worn at wrist). It only guesses from all the sleep data - after some nights of calibration, the sleep phase you are in. Nevertheless, for me it works fine. I have been using it a lot and many times the audio cues were quite loud. Each and very time I was woken by a cue, I woke from a dream, meaning I was in REM. Anyway, if we can be lucid in Non-REM sleep, maybe we don't need all of these after all! :cheeky:

Awesome, this will help build a simple device and more experiments could be run. :) If one sets the timer to after couple of hours sleep, it can hit a shorter than the initial NREM and if that triggers lucidity the lder would try to act from there. Or it could still hit REM which is taking a larger portion of the sleep cycle, which is perfect as well.

Thanks for the app explanation and best of luck with your experiments.

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Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

Hi Marc.
I will not use EEG or a dedicated tACS device - I know that for less than 20€ you cannot get either.
REM detection will be acomplished with my iphone (DreamZ app) as in the past - this was never the problem. The thing is how to convert a 40hz audio signal (that the iphone will play during REM) into electric current. Jeff used EMS devices (that are not dedicated tACS devices) with success - the upixie can even convert a 40hz audio signal to EMS but is 100€ and needs a PC to connect to. Cheap EMS devices start on Aliexpress at 8€ but their frequency is not adjustable (no 40hz). Can you connect the dots?
If I am successfull, I will share the whole setup!

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Well that could work. Maybe the REM detection is not as accurate as an EEG, but this doesn't mean that it doesn't have to work, right? :)

Keep up your good work and please post your progress ^^

btw: Any chance to use an android device instead of iOS?

Please, please don´t use TENS. It´s to dangerous because it´s way to strong (5-60 mA instead of 0.25 mA). Also this current isn´t controllable while you´re sleeping.

Don´t try this anything in this way when you don´t know what you are doing. You can cook your brain.