RC + alarm DEILD experiment: would you join me ?

Hi, i would like to make a simple research about the effectiveness of using a continuous alarm during the night to be able to DEILD/WILD, coupled with daytime RCing triggered by alarms, phone rings, doorbells, and the like

I would like to do it for a minimum of 90 effective nights ( that is, attempts that meet the inclusion criteria*) , but if it proves effective early in the experiment, we might want it to last a little bit longer...

I was thinking to make a presentation, paper, or scientific poster with this research. I would be glad to put your name on the list of co-authors/collaborators, and i would do it for the first 3 persons to finish the study.

So, anyone would like to join me ?



*

Spoiler for study criteria:

Inclusion criteria: 18 or more years of age, alarm app ( customizable to 15 min interval autosnooze**), a minimum of 4 effective atttempts ( that is, 7 hours of sleep minimum) per week and no more than 2 nights in a row without attempts or ineffective attempts ( less than 7 hours of sleep)

Exclusion criteria: less than 18 years old; sleep disorder, other than mild insomnia, nights with less than 7 or more than 9 hours ( if more than 9 hours is still considered an effective attempt but doesn´t count for the study); aplication of other techinques like WBTB longer than 5 minutes total per night, SSILD or MILD ( dream journalling is fine ), etc.

** i can suggest an android app

I've tried something similar before and wasn't very effective, personally. But what do you mean "continuous alarm"? Would it be an alarm that shuts itself off in a few seconds or that you must turn off every 15 minutes?

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Originally Posted by mimihigurashi

I've tried something similar before and wasn't very effective, personally. But what do you mean "continuous alarm"? Would it be an alarm that shuts itself off in a few seconds or that you must turn off every 15 minutes?

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The alarm starts working after 4,5 hours or sleep ( or from the outset if you like) and then every 15 minutes and it shuts itself off in a few seconds, exactly

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

The alarm starts working after 4,5 hours or sleep ( or from the outset if you like) and then every 15 minutes and it shuts itself off in a few seconds, exactly

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I see. But it doesn't sound very healthy to me, I get that it's not every day in a row, but still 90 days of disturbed sleep is a long time. For those who do hear the alarms, that is, there are some heavy sleepers who could sleep through anything.
I'm not sure about it at all, to be honest, I'd kinda want to, but I hate waking up tired and sleepy due to unrestful sleep.

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Originally Posted by mimihigurashi

I see. But it doesn't sound very healthy to me, I get that it's not every day in a row, but still 90 days of disturbed sleep is a long time. For those who do hear the alarms, that is, there are some heavy sleepers who could sleep through anything.
I'm not sure about it at all, to be honest, I'd kinda want to, but I hate waking up tired and sleepy due to unrestful sleep.

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I think it doesn´t mess up too much with sleep, at least it didn´t with me. It can be annoying though,but by comparison dream journaling is much more dificult.But if you want to try it, you can do it of course, without joining the study. I am only setting these inclusion criteria to make the evidence more robust, and to understand the power of consistency

I'll try it once in a while when I can, I'm doing other morning techniques atm. I hope more people join you and if you begin, keep us posted, I'm curious how it would go.

Once i was a big fan of this method (using multiple alarms with auto-snoose ability and trying to DEILD).

90% of the time, they were successful. in fact, it is an LD method in hand.

it had some benefits:
- As we are not too sleepy after waking up several times, then we remember not to move our body after we wake up.
- also chances to hit the REM sleep is high in this method. out of 5 alarms i used in a day, one of them led to LD (on average).

but they had some bad effects on me=

- headache (because of using lots of Alarms).
- i couldn't have much dreams when using this method (i don't know why).
- i was very tired as the sleep cycle did not end its complete rotation. so i needed one extra hour of sleeping.
- sometimes i annoyed my neighbor and when i heard she said: "that b*itch doesn't allow us sleep with that f... alarm.....GOOOOOOOD...." then i stopped using this method.

but if you are OK with that negative effects, then i swear this is one the best LD method on earth!

good luck!

You guys should check out Daniel Love's FATE technique (believe that is the name?). Involves setting alarm to go off randomly during the night, so as to induce FAs that one would accustom themselves to catching. Might up the chance of DILDs while constantly being interrupted by an alarm. Would make it much easier to DEILD as well.

EDIT: yaya, did I read that correctly? Are you not going to try this technique for 30 days!?!? :D

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Originally Posted by ThreeCat

EDIT: yaya, did I read that correctly? Are you not going to try this technique for 30 days!?!? :D

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Ahahah... that's because i am already trying another 30 days technique (Erin Pavilina method) :chuckle:

i am on day 2 of that method (i will only report LD not fails in that thread)....maybe after these 28 days, i try this alarm method again (with a gentle alarm sound which doesn't interrupt my neighbor).

but...wait a minute...can i combine Ervin pavlina method with this alarm method? because the first one is done before sleep and the second one is done after waking up...so they don't interrupt each others...

however, VagalTone told we should not participate his project if we do other techniques.... now i do DILD, SSILS, dream yoga and WILD...so i think they have huge impact on this Alarm method...but if that's ok, then i am in...but if not, then i can't post here.:uhm:

I've always held out great hope for a technique like this but never quite got the motivation to really put it to practice, to the point of perfectly tuning the alarm volume and length and the time for it starting to go off.

I do have a remee, and I'm likely to really start trying it again purely for DEILD. It just doesn't work from bedtime, it's too hard to hit REM that is hours away with any accuracy. The way remee is designed, resetting it to "nap mode" takes too much fiddling and touching and waiting, but putting it on after WBTB on the "main" setting may be just the right way to try.

I can't use an audible alarm because of my wife.

The good thing about this study is the consistency and discipline building effect.
I will do it myself, i will update my progress on my DJ. Hope some fellows join me to make this a well tested technique

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Originally Posted by yaya

Ahahah... that's because i am already trying another 30 days technique (Erin Pavilina method) :chuckle:

i am on day 2 of that method (i will only report LD not fails in that thread)....maybe after these 28 days, i try this alarm method again (with a gentle alarm sound which doesn't interrupt my neighbor).

but...wait a minute...can i combine Ervin pavlina method with this alarm method? because the first one is done before sleep and the second one is done after waking up...so they don't interrupt each others...

however, VagalTone told we should not participate his project if we do other techniques.... now i do DILD, SSILS, dream yoga and WILD...so i think they have huge impact on this Alarm method...but if that's ok, then i am in...but if not, then i can't post here.:uhm:

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Just stick with your current research..If you decide to give up your current techniques, then your more than welcome to join the study

Really? Woke up 6 times and not a single LD?! At least I can't remember..
But you guys are right, the alarm, length, volume, and other options must be tweaked until you find a good balance. This morning I did not have a good balance, the alarm was too loud, a bit too long, so it startled and irritated me every time it woke me up, I even forgot to try WILD or DEILD because of it, I only fell back asleep.

Strangely enough though, I actually woke up with more ease than I did before using 1 alarm for WBTB and another one for waking up for real. Dream recall was a bit tricky, but I managed to pull 3 shortish, and 2 average length dreams. Which again is strange because I've been struggling with recall these past weeks and this is better than what I've had in many days combined, I expected waking up multiple times to wreck my recall, not help it!

Ok I'm totally into this, let's do this again *game face on*

I would reserve the first attempts for the sake of experimentation and fine-tuning. Once you can have your first LD by this method, the study started and i will ask you to record your data, taking note of the following factors

Hours of sleep / subjective quality of the practice during the day (RCing to audio cues) from 1 to 5/ Alarm settings ( interval time, ringing duration) / DEILD method / number of lucids (and the time you woke up from it)

I think there must also be a psychological habituation/expectation factor at work here -- if you hit on a winning combination of settings, with repetition you just "know" when it goes off that it means "OK now I'm going to have a lucid dream," which may be the most powerful effect involved.

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

I would reserve the first attempts for the sake of experimentation and fine-tuning. Once you can have your first LD by this method, the study started and i will ask you to record your data, taking note of the following factors

Hours of sleep / subjective quality of the practice during the day (RCing to audio cues) from 1 to 5/ Alarm settings ( interval time, ringing duration) / DEILD method / number of lucids (and the time you woke up from it)

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What do you mean RCing to audio cues? What cues?

And also

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Originally Posted by yaya

i am already trying another 30 days technique (Erin Pavilina method)

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I wanted to try that one too yaya but I find it really difficult, how about you do that one and I do this one and we both post our results? xP The more experimenting, the better.

In the OP i am asking to RC whenever you hear a doorbell, phone ring and so forth in the hopes of better recognition of the alarm cue

Oh, well, I use a custom alarm noise which consists of a creepy robotic voice saying "do not move, start counting" which I made some time ago in an attempt to DEILD more easily. Alarms that sound like normal alarm clocks annoy and scare the hell out of me. I also don't have a doorbell (I live upstairs in my room, wouldn't be able to hear any doorbell from downstairs) and my phone ringtone is also customized. So sorry, it seems I might not be qualified to join this after all.

It doesnt need to be the same ringtone but just any random audio cue, for instance if you hear anorher person's phone. You can also put your clock to ring randomly for instance. Or you can also just forget the daytime RC- and report as zero when you haven't applied. It would be important too to understand the importante of no daytime practice, so you would qualify as a control :)

If you want to join and help me with valid data be sure to have strong motivation as the study is admitedly tough, and one single night might be enough to throw all the data away.

Ugh, no pressure, lol.. I don't know how to set my clock/phone to ring randomly, I don't have an option/app for that. And I cannot afford to give up RCing, frequent RCing as been part of my routine for the last 3 weeks.
Sorry, I have many other techniques to try out and projects to work on, I don't think I can be part of such a rigorous program on top of all that. I hope people with more free time and less techniques join in, though.

It is indeed a rigorous program, although i hope it wont be as difficult as it seems.

Thanks for the interest anyway!

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Originally Posted by mimihigurashi

I wanted to try that one too yaya but I find it really difficult, how about you do that one and I do this one and we both post our results? xP The more experimenting, the better.

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sure! that's a good idea! :rolllaugh:

ummmm...maybe this can help you... previously, I have tried many timing with this method with different alarm length.
- alarm every 5 minutes
-every 15 mins
- every 20 mins
- every 30 mins

the length of the alarm for each trial was from 3 seconds to 15 seconds.

of all of these combinations, 5 seconds alarm length (simple beep sound) at every 20 minutes, gave me guaranteed LD (number of intervals was 5 times).
shorter alarm sounds didn't wake me up and longer length made sleeping hard and it made me too much aware.

i also made variations of sleeping from 5 hours to 7 hours before attempting and you can guess which was was better.

WBTB times had a very important role on success rate in this method and being awake for at least 30 minutes is great.

of course everyone is different and i am sure with a little adjustment, you can find your best timing.

i hope you best, guys!

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Originally Posted by yaya

of all of these combinations, 5 seconds alarm length (simple beep sound) at every 20 minutes, gave me guaranteed LD (number of intervals was 5 times).

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Cool, that's exactly how I set mine even before you posted this. Gonna test it out for a while, thanks for the tips.

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Originally Posted by yaya

sure! that's a good idea! :rolllaugh:

ummmm...maybe this can help you... previously, I have tried many timing with this method with different alarm length.
- alarm every 5 minutes
-every 15 mins
- every 20 mins
- every 30 mins

the length of the alarm for each trial was from 3 seconds to 15 seconds.

of all of these combinations, 5 seconds alarm length (simple beep sound) at every 20 minutes, gave me guaranteed LD (number of intervals was 5 times).
shorter alarm sounds didn't wake me up and longer length made sleeping hard and it made me too much aware.

i also made variations of sleeping from 5 hours to 7 hours before attempting and you can guess which was was better.

WBTB times had a very important role on success rate in this method and being awake for at least 30 minutes is great.

of course everyone is different and i am sure with a little adjustment, you can find your best timing.

i hope you best, guys!

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That´s also something i have figured out before, although i am trying to leave it out of the equation now. I achieved a success rate of 2/3 with WBTB.

I hope you best too !

I haven't read the entire tread, but I can say I've tried the DEILD alarm thing before (only at night, no daytime RC's). The intention was to be woken up slightly be the alarm at intervals throughout the night. I made a sound file which was 2 hours of silence followed by a beep, which I began to play on a loop at the beginning of the night.

What happened was interesting. I did become lucid from a "beep", but as I later found out, the actual beep didn't sound, I dreamt that it did, dreamt that I DEILDed, and thus became lucid! :lol: I know I dreamt it because about 3 minutes into the LD the actual alarm went off and woke me up. So I think it was ultimately my expectation which induced the lucidity.

How's the practice going for you, VagalTone?
I've tried it 4 times so far, thinking it was only a matter of adjusting the alarm settings, but I think I've come to a different realization today. I've had no DEILDs, or WILDs, only a DILD today, which was after all the alarms have went off, after I was supposed to get up, I accidentally fell asleep after becoming fairly aware, and had a DILD, so I'm pretty sure it had next to nothing to do with this DEILD business.

Now the thing with DEILD, at least in my case, is that it requires two things: complete relaxation, i.e. the relaxation you actually wake up with from sleep, and the very, very close to sleep, low awareness. Alarms take both of these things away from me. Every time an alarm went off, no matter how low I set the volume (but high enough to be able to hear it and be woken up), it would jolt me awake, suddenly spiking my awareness and ruining my initial complete relaxation. I did try to DEILD anyway, but to me, if it doesn't happen within seconds, it's certain that it's not gonna happen at all, I fell asleep unconsciously while trying every time. On the other hand, when I did have my few (amazing) DEILDs, they all happened when I managed to wake up by myself, without any alarms, and remember to remain relaxed and lay still.

So that's my trouble with alarms. Perhaps I should try a different sound, something more gentle, even though what I'm currently using is far from loud and annoying like a typical buzzer would be. I will give it a few more tries with a different alarm, if a miracle happens, that'll be great, but if not, I'll just go back to teaching myself to wake up naturally and remember not to move, I find that much more appealing because of the lack of dependence on technology, which imo is ideal for good lucid dreaming.

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Originally Posted by mimihigurashi

How's the practice going for you, VagalTone?
I've tried it 4 times so far, thinking it was only a matter of adjusting the alarm settings, but I think I've come to a different realization today. I've had no DEILDs, or WILDs, only a DILD today, which was after all the alarms have went off, after I was supposed to get up, I accidentally fell asleep after becoming fairly aware, and had a DILD, so I'm pretty sure it had next to nothing to do with this DEILD business.

Now the thing with DEILD, at least in my case, is that it requires two things: complete relaxation, i.e. the relaxation you actually wake up with from sleep, and the very, very close to sleep, low awareness. Alarms take both of these things away from me. Every time an alarm went off, no matter how low I set the volume (but high enough to be able to hear it and be woken up), it would jolt me awake, suddenly spiking my awareness and ruining my initial complete relaxation. I did try to DEILD anyway, but to me, if it doesn't happen within seconds, it's certain that it's not gonna happen at all, I fell asleep unconsciously while trying every time. On the other hand, when I did have my few (amazing) DEILDs, they all happened when I managed to wake up by myself, without any alarms, and remember to remain relaxed and lay still.

So that's my trouble with alarms. Perhaps I should try a different sound, something more gentle, even though what I'm currently using is far from loud and annoying like a typical buzzer would be. I will give it a few more tries with a different alarm, if a miracle happens, that'll be great, but if not, I'll just go back to teaching myself to wake up naturally and remember not to move, I find that much more appealing because of the lack of dependence on technology, which imo is ideal for good lucid dreaming.

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Hi ! Congratulations for your attempts. I think you should not give up yet, as every night is an opportunity to adjust the settings.
I am stil finetuning the alarm settings to become as less disruptive as possible, which is probably the only problem of this approach. So, i encourage you and everyone who would like to try to prefere to fail by not hearing the alarm, than failing with a noisy alarm.

Then it becomes a matter of simply turning on your alarm at bedtime. It becomes effortless.
You can also map your rem periods and put an alarm right into it

Anyway, congratulations for your efforts and whish you great natural or artificial DEILDs :D
Natural DEILD should be the goal.

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

Hi ! Congratulations for your attempts. I think you should not give up yet, as every night is an opportunity to adjust the settings.
I am stil finetuning the alarm settings to become as less disruptive as possible, which is probably the only problem of this approach. So, i encourage you and everyone who would like to try to prefere to fail by not hearing the alarm, than failing with a noisy alarm.

Then it becomes a matter of simply turning on your alarm at bedtime. It becomes effortless.
You can also map your rem periods and put an alarm right into it

Anyway, congratulations for your efforts and whish you great natural or artificial DEILDs :D
Natural DEILD should be the goal.

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You're right, I'm not giving up yet. I found and set the most gentle alarm I could find, it's so relaxing I had to set it to last 15 seconds with a slightly higher than average volume to make sure I'll both hear it and not be jolted awake. If this doesn't work, I don't know what will..
I also think this alarm business is the only real problem, the only thing after this would be remembering not to move and stay relaxed, which should not be difficult.

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

Hi ! Congratulations for your attempts. I think you should not give up yet, as every night is an opportunity to adjust the settings.
I am stil finetuning the alarm settings to become as less disruptive as possible, which is probably the only problem of this approach. So, i encourage you and everyone who would like to try to prefere to fail by not hearing the alarm, than failing with a noisy alarm.

Then it becomes a matter of simply turning on your alarm at bedtime. It becomes effortless.
You can also map your rem periods and put an alarm right into it

Anyway, congratulations for your efforts and whish you great natural or artificial DEILDs :D
Natural DEILD should be the goal.

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I wonder about this (natural DEILD being the goal). I wonder if DEILD can actually truly ever arise naturally if your REM is completely "over." I know that REM is not set in concrete, and I know some like Sageous contend that it can be extended by properly managing your mental state in the dream to remain in the dream (sivason too gives us an example of maintaining a lucid dream across "brain reboot" periods).

I wonder because I've had so few DEILDs. It seemed to me that in order to have them, the conditions had to be PERFECT: awakening at just the right point in the sleep cycle.

Is DEILD only really possible on any regular sort of basis OTHER than dream interruption/abrupt wakening before the end of the natural REM (e.g., through excitement/shock, etc.)?

Maybe alarm-DEILD *is* the only sort of sustainable DEILD? Normally, I'd prefer one continuous long lucid dream without waking before the end of actual REM. DEILD seems a sort of a "bandaid" for failing to maintain the (previous) lucid dream…?

The great thing about alarm-DEILD, if you can tune the alarm to work for you, and if you can fall asleep again (BIG IF for me!) is that it gives you a greatly increased number of opportunities per night to get lucid.

Lately, however, I've been able to maintain sleep for beyond 8 hours, with decent awareness and even lucidity in the later hours. I may get motivated sufficiently to set up my remee for DEILD-only mode and try to find the perfect signal length/intensity for late morning. Hitting REM from bedtime with remee is pretty pointless for me since my sleep schedule is all over the place. I've tried over 100 times I think and only saw the lights in a dream twice (both times waking me up abruptly).

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

Maybe alarm-DEILD *is* the only sort of sustainable DEILD?

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I sure hope that's the case, because then I'd feel a lot less guilty about using alarms, haha.
But if alarms really turn out to be unideal, then we can only do what we do for pretty much all other techniques: build the skill. The skill of noticing micro-awakenings, staying still and going into a lucid.

Imo it's important to tame your sleep schedule. You can get lucky once in a while even with a bad schedule, but I think a stable one is vital for executing techniques properly and getting accurate results.
I don't know about the "bandaid" analogy, personally I see DEILD as a way to extend your lucid experience, no matter how good you are at maintaining a lucid dream, it will end at some point, and DEILD allows you to get right back into it, so why not, I think it's a great thing.

@FryingMan: Have you ever slept more than 9 hours ? :cheeky:

I think the easiest DEILDs, and also the craziest long chains, come after some extended period of sleep, when there's mostly REM

Besides, anything that causes REM rebound (like long WBTBs) should provide a good opportunity.

I have rarely DEILDed before 7 hours of sleep.

I have accumulated more than 9 hours of sleep on occasion during LD training, but it's fairly rare. Earlier, when I would force myself back to sleep on those nights where I had no recall out of stubbornness ("I'm NOT GETTING UP UNTIL I RECALL AT LEAST ONE DREAM!"), dreaming in those extended periods actually was less aware then in the time leading up to 8 hours, by a considerable margin. So I just stopped doing that because the dreaming was poor and I'd feel sluggish all day if I slept too much.

FYI, I was in bed about 12 hours last night. I don't know how much of that was sleep, but probably most of it was. I was awake in the morning for a while (an hour at most perhaps?) and got back to sleep with my "back to sleep kung fu", and actually had some decent dreams including a late FA which I caught [more or less handed to me, I was ejected from the bed, love when that happens] and turned into a short DILD marred by pure caveman mode. p.s. I took 2 mg of melatonin last night because I was so jazzed from a self-pep-talk before bed about lucidity :). So I may have had some REM rebound going on this morning.

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DEILD allows you to get right back into it , so why not, I think it's a great thing

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It *IS* a great thing -- but I guess I'm questioning how often "natural" DEILD opportunities arise. Maybe I'm just too far from DEILD on my mind, not tuned in well enough to wakings, or my bedroom conditions are such that those opportunities just don't come up more than once in a blue moon. Maybe alarm DEILD is a great way to gain a lot of DEILD attempts under your belt and so improve and create more opportunities. But I'd still rather just stay in the dream longer :).

I think I am making progress. This morning I managed to get to pre-exit symptoms, oh how I missed that eerie buzzing.. I think it's mostly a matter of getting adjusted to the alarm, so you don't get startled anymore and not forget what you're supposed to do as soon as you hear it, which I'm still having some trouble with, lol, but I do believe it's just a matter of time and making it a habit.

Also, after the buzzing stopped, I woke up in an unfamiliar bedroom, I did a breath RC, both with and without hands, could not breathe during both attempts.. This RC has failed me one too many times, I'm seriously considering replacing it with check-the-time RC. I always have my phone with me, so in a dream if I don't have it, that alone should be a sign that something's off. The breath RC did also work as it should many times, but now that I think about it, it was almost always when I was already lucid. When I was in doubt, there were quite a few times when it failed me. So I lost a lot of faith in it..

How's it going for you VagalTone?

I am still adjusting my settings but have achieved two short lucids last week. Have you done this daily mimi?

I see. Yep, been doing it daily for 6 days. Frankly, it felt like a lot longer, but I don't think it's nearly enough, I'm planning to try for at least 30 days. It's likely it gets easier over time.

mimi, I feel your pain re: the nose pinch! It worked beautifully for quite a while, but now seems to suggest I am awake more often than it suggests I am dreaming. I'm not sure why that is, but I have relegated it to a backup. I have a digital watch with a light now that I use.

I have also realized that any of these RCs can fail, and that it entirely depends on where your mind is when you do them. I have had my watch read the wrong time repeatedly, and decided that I must be going crazy, because I was obviously awake :morecrying: The fact that we are so profoundly at dis-ease concerning our state of reality should indicate we are dreaming, but that's not always a sure thing. Good luck with checking the time!

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Originally Posted by ThreeCat

mimi, I feel your pain re: the nose pinch! It worked beautifully for quite a while, but now seems to suggest I am awake more often than it suggests I am dreaming. I'm not sure why that is, but I have relegated it to a backup. I have a digital watch with a light now that I use.

I have also realized that any of these RCs can fail, and that it entirely depends on where your mind is when you do them. I have had my watch read the wrong time repeatedly, and decided that I must be going crazy, because I was obviously awake :morecrying: The fact that we are so profoundly at dis-ease concerning our state of reality should indicate we are dreaming, but that's not always a sure thing. Good luck with checking the time!

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It's a shame, nose RC used to be such a good RC for most people.
Indeed, your thinking has a lot to do with whether you'll accept the RC's suggestion that you're dreaming instead of making up excuses. Personally I'm kind of paranoid by nature, I firmly believe you can never be 100% sure that you're awake, so I almost never have trouble becoming lucid upon noticing oddities. I think in order to not just assume you're going crazy or your watch is broken, first you must accept, in waking life, the idea that no matter how real everything seems, it is still possible that you're dreaming. Truly accept it at a deeper level, not just "yeah I could be dreaming (but I'm pretty sure I'm not)" kind of thing.. if you know what I mean, not sure how much sense I'm making cause it's late and I'm tired, lol.

What i am slowly realizing is that novway will this be as much effective as with WBTB ! My dreams are significantly more vivid though and i feel the overall result is positive, as it gives me the oportunity to remember and recharge my mindset when i hear the alarm. I have my settings set now. Tonight begins officially my experiment ! Will updtate weekly here :)

My settings: alarm every 30 min at bedtime with the recording « i am dreaming», 3 times.

Woo-hoo--go, Vagaltone! God speed!

I just PM'd sivsason who seems to have mastered alarm-DEILD and asked him how long it took to get really good at it, he mentioned it took *3 years* of attempts before it became really consistent for him, and that before that he was already very proficient at DILD. So as always in this discipline, it pays to take the long view. You also have to be someone for whom falling back to sleep is quick/easy, which is probably why late morning DEILD is so rare for me, because I have to be in a perfect state where I'm dozing back to sleep easily.

Just because it took someone a very long time it doesn't mean it'll be the same for everyone. Plus, not everyone's asking for strict consistency. Personally I don't mind doing it, it doesn't tire me and it seems to increase my chances of DILD too, if nothing else.

Of course everyone's timing is different. My point is that "trying XYZ for 30 days" and concluding at the end of it that "it doesn't work for me" is not the right strategy with this discipline of lucid dreaming. Everyone (myself included) gets so tunnel-visioned on wanting immediate results. We need to set our sights for the long-term.

Evidently so. I specifically said a minimum of 30 days, I'm planning to go well beyond that, unless things go drastically wrong, such as the technique making me wake up exhausted, which I doubt will happen.

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

Of course everyone's timing is different. My point is that "trying XYZ for 30 days" and concluding at the end of it that "it doesn't work for me" is not the right strategy with this discipline of lucid dreaming. Everyone (myself included) gets so tunnel-visioned on wanting immediate results. We need to set our sights for the long-term.

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I agree i might not be able to reach a conclusive result about alarm deild. I am just making a little poor experiment, but it might be better than many published studied in terms of duration, i have seen important studies using only 2 weeks of practice, check studies about Paul Tholey on Lucitopia. But i agree with you dude :)

Anyways, i am finding this technique very useful for at least improving dream recall. If you are dreaming, and then a record hits your sleep with " this is a dream" message there's a sudden redirection of attention to what you were dreaming. This is the result of having an alarm too loud or long of course.

I'm holding out great hope for this approach in the long run. sivason's is an inspiring example, he can get a bunch of short (short because interrupted by the alarm) lucids almost every time he does this. In the short run I need to train my brain to fall asleep again quickly.

Yay, finally it worked like magic this time. Heard the alarm, stayed still, began repeating the mantra in my head "I'm lucid dreaming.." over and over a few times, began buzzing a couple times, then next thing I know I'm in a vivid, long, lucid dream! :bliss: I love this XD Not gonna touch those alarm settings anymore, from now on if something goes sour I'll know it must be either my fault or the sleep schedule or anything like that.

Great! :armflap:
i wish you more loooong LD!

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Originally Posted by mimihigurashi

Yay, finally it worked like magic this time. Heard the alarm, stayed still, began repeating the mantra in my head "I'm lucid dreaming.." over and over a few times, began buzzing a couple times, then next thing I know I'm in a vivid, long, lucid dream! :bliss: I love this XD Not gonna touch those alarm settings anymore, from now on if something goes sour I'll know it must be either my fault or the sleep schedule or anything like that.

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That is fabulous, congrats! How many hours of sleep approximately, out of curiosity, at the alarm time?

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

That is fabulous, congrats! How many hours of sleep approximately, out of curiosity, at the alarm time?

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Thanks! Hmm, how many hours, I'd say almost 6 hours, perhaps a bit less, from around 11-11:30 pm to 5-5:20 am (my alarm goes off every 20 minutes, the WILD happened on the second alarm I believe)

Every 20 minutes starting from bedtime, or starting when?

No, starting at 5 am until 8 am.

Whoa, this was weird.. A few days before, I was a bit frustrated because I felt I wasn't putting enough effort into staying conscious when I hear the alarm. It's just very confusing, very low awareness a lot of the times, and you forget what to do and fall back asleep really quickly, I suspect this is because of hitting the wrong sleep spot, missing the REM period.

So I insisted on trying harder to maintain awareness, this morning as soon as I heard the alarm I began chanting my mantra and within seconds my whole body began buzzing, you know, one of the typical things before a WILD. Except this time it lasted like a whole minute instead of a few seconds like it usually does. It kept decreasing and increasing in intensity and while it was happening I got some.. I don't even know what you would call them, dream snippets? Of some people talking about.. deep, spiritual things. Meanwhile, due to the vibrations, I was beginning to lose feeling of where my body ends and the things around it begin.. Odd. I don't understand why I couldn't enter a dream this time though, perhaps I wasn't assertive enough? I was kinda fascinated by how long the vibrations are lasting, and also I think my eyes were fluttering a bit, about to open, I was afraid that if I try to see, I'll wake up instead of see what dream I am in.

Btw, VagalTone let me know if you want me to stop spamming here, lol, because I know I'm not qualified for the experiment, so I wouldn't wanna spam with unqualified experiences. Also, how is it going for you guys, any more successes?

Great to hear your adventures mimi, bring them on!
The last few days i have been sleeping with friends and didnt use it and so i have to reset my experiment(which probably is an important bias). Anyways, the night just before my hostel check in, i had an interesting dream. I was being anesthesised in the dream and i was kind of reluctant. Everytime i felt i was going to fall into anesthesia, i kept waking up. Then, eventually i surrendered and let the anesthesia knock me down but i felt like i entered conscious deep sleep from a nonlucid dream, and i stayed in this state a while. Very close to sleep paralysis.

Just to tell you guys that from now on, i will restart my experiment but with my alarm off and just use whatever natural methods i can...lol

DEILD deserves a good committed try, and now it's time to throw the alarm help away...let's do it !

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

Just to tell you guys that from now on, i will restart my experiment but with my alarm off and just use whatever natural methods i can...lol

DEILD deserves a good committed try, and now it's time to throw the alarm help away...let's do it !

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Haha, so pretty much Raduga's technique huh? Nice. You should add a short WBTB if you want, to refresh and strengthen your intention of waking up and DEILDing. Good luck, I'm gonna keep trying with the alarm for a while longer and if it doesn't get easier soon, I'll also go back to natural, as I was doing before with Raduga's technique.

Not pretty much Raduga's because i will use the recall last image technique to DEILD and not to initiate an OBE.
I have the suspicion that if one can get used to natural DEILD it will then become kind of automatic, let's see..

That is, instead of getting used to recall the last dream in detail, one tries to recall only the last image. Maybe that becomes an habit too

Good luck, i think the alarm has its own benefits, specially for recall.

If coupled with a long WBTB is a very good shot too - but

I see. I agree, DEILD skill can be trained like any other skill, it just takes practice and the clear intention of waking up.

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i think the alarm has its own benefits, specially for recall.

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@.@ I wish that was the case, these alarms have been wrecking my recall.

[QUOTE=mimihigurashi;2152222]I see. I agree, DEILD skill can be trained like any other skill, it just takes practice and the clear intention of waking up.

@.@ I wish that was the case, these alarms have been wrecking my recall.[/QUOTE]

Ohh ! I thought that was a universal benefit. What kind of alarm do you use? I use « this is a dream» record - so maybe this is helping my mind to remember to recall the dream

[QUOTE=VagalTone;2152251]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mimihigurashi

I see. I agree, DEILD skill can be trained like any other skill, it just takes practice and the clear intention of waking up.

@.@ I wish that was the case, these alarms have been wrecking my recall.[/QUOTE]

Ohh ! I thought that was a universal benefit. What kind of alarm do you use? I use « this is a dream» record - so maybe this is helping my mind to remember to recall the dream

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My recall might be suffering because I quickly fall asleep multiple times, I don't stop and remember my dreams before falling asleep. Frankly my alarm is not far from yours, but again it differs from one person to another. Still, looking forward to what we can do without alarms, hope it won't be a disaster, lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mimihigurashi

Whoa, this was weird.. A few days before, I was a bit frustrated because I felt I wasn't putting enough effort into staying conscious when I hear the alarm. It's just very confusing, very low awareness a lot of the times, and you forget what to do and fall back asleep really quickly, I suspect this is because of hitting the wrong sleep spot, missing the REM period.

So I insisted on trying harder to maintain awareness, this morning as soon as I heard the alarm I began chanting my mantra and within seconds my whole body began buzzing, you know, one of the typical things before a WILD. Except this time it lasted like a whole minute instead of a few seconds like it usually does. It kept decreasing and increasing in intensity and while it was happening I got some.. I don't even know what you would call them, dream snippets? Of some people talking about.. deep, spiritual things. Meanwhile, due to the vibrations, I was beginning to lose feeling of where my body ends and the things around it begin.. Odd. I don't understand why I couldn't enter a dream this time though, perhaps I wasn't assertive enough? I was kinda fascinated by how long the vibrations are lasting, and also I think my eyes were fluttering a bit, about to open, I was afraid that if I try to see, I'll wake up instead of see what dream I am in.

Btw, VagalTone let me know if you want me to stop spamming here, lol, because I know I'm not qualified for the experiment, so I wouldn't wanna spam with unqualified experiences. Also, how is it going for you guys, any more successes?

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Important: Once the vibrations begin, wait about 5 seconds and then get out of bed! You will always be in an OBE. Ive had this happen dozens of times. Dont wait for the vibrations to end. Once they begin then thats your cue to seperate from your stencil body - trust me on this one!

Ezzo

Ok everyone. this my my opinion ... I have experience with this. Within a few months from now, the amazing Arora headband will be launched after years in development. Using EEG and other magic algorithmns it detects when you are in REM accurately and the sends light / audio cues to the dreamer.

Now the main objective is to intergrate these cues into your dream and become lucid if you reality check any flashing lights in your dream

However ..... I will be using mine specifically as a DIELD alarm. No more trying to hit REM randomly with alarms, this device will ONLY rouse you from sleep when your in a dream and once you have the light flash settings perfected, you will have the perfect DEILD deveice.

Ezzo is excited! :-D

Found this interesting article about the use of snooze alarms.

https://braindecoder.com/post/to-ach...ton-1487020701

Another funny way to enhance DEILD is to have a bed that makes little noises when you move your body in it (and therefore signal that you maybe just moved out of REM paralysis), which can remember you to stay quiet and DEILD

Merry Christhmas everyone !