I may have found the Key to Lucid Dreams: Ground breaking Research

But before I can explain how to have Lucid Dreams at will you will need to understand the Neurobiological causes for the loss of consciousness associated with dreams.

According to Allan Hobson the differences between the self-awareness, working memory and executive functions, and consciousness experienced in waking life and its loss in dreaming can be explained by deactivation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex during REM sleep (The Prefrontal Cortex in Sleep, 2002).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c2/Ba46.png

The Dorsolateral Prefrontal Cortex (DLPFC) is responsible for executive functions and working memory. As a consequence of deactivation of the DLPFC during sleep, executive functions such as self-consciousness and analytical thought are severely impaired during dreams. (The Prefrontal Cortex in Sleep, 2002).

In his book The Dream Drugstore(2001-pg 97) Allan Hobson proposed that lucid dreaming is the result of DLPFC activation during REM sleep, and that working memory resides in the DLPFC which is deactivated during sleep and results in the bizarreness and mute executive functions associated with dreams.

So without wasting anymore of your time let me explain how it might be possible to have Lucid Dreams at will.

As stated earlier Allan Hobson proposed that lucid dreaming is the result of DLPFC activation during REM sleep. There are currently two main forms of non-invasive brain stimulation, there is Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (tMS) and Transcranial Direct Current Stimulation (tDCS). However I will focus on tDCS because it is much safer, more versatile, and a lot less expensive than tMS as well as being more appropriate for our purposes.

Transcranial Direct Current Stimulation (tDCS) is a form of non-invasive brain stimulation. tDCS is the application of weak electrical currents (1-2 mA) to modulate the activity of neurons in the brain.

tDCS It is extremely safe, with no reported cases of any major negative effects. It is also important to distinguish tDCS from electroconvulsive therapy, which is used to treat mental illnesses such as major depression by passing pulses of approximately 1 ampere into the brain in order to provoke an epileptic seizure.

The materials used are very cheap and can be found at your local radio shack.

All that is requires is:

- 9v Battery
- two wires (one anode, one cathode)
- 2 wet saline sponges (for the area to be activated)

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/ante...mages/tdcs.jpg
http://www.magstim.com/resource/1319...8.file.eng.JPG
http://www.magstim.com/resource/1319...1.file.eng.jpg

Here is a video demonstrating how its applied.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp6bBs16g28

Here is a link to a company that sells tDCS.

http://www.magstim.com/magstimdcstimulator.html

tDCS is used on people with depression, Parkinson, as well as strokes and many other conditions. It has also been able used to increase working memory(Fregni et al., 2005) reduce risk taking behavior (Fecteau et al.,2007) as well as increase word pair retention (Marshall et al.,2004) when placed over the DLPFC. However it can be used on any lateral part of the brain to induce excitability in the brain region being targeted.

I propose that by using tDCS over the DLPFC during REM sleep, that the DLPFC will be activated and induce a Lucid Dream.

I've already discussed this proposal with Allan Hobson, and he has already put it on his list of research studies.







Here are some links to my research:

The prefrontal cortex in sleep 2002
Muzur A, Pace-Schott EF, Hobson JA.

Dreaming: a neuroimaging view 2005
T. T. Dang-Vua, b, 1, M. Desseillesa, c, 1, G. Albouya, A. Darsauda, 1, S. Gaisa, G. Rauchsa, 1, M. Schabusa, V. Sterpenicha, 1, G. Vandewallea, 1, S. Schwartzd, 1, P. Maqueta, b, 1

Functional neuroanatomy of altered states of consciousness: The transient hypofrontality hypothesis 2002
Arne Dietrich

Anodal transcranial direct current stimulation of prefrontal cortex enhances working memory.
Fregni F, Boggio PS, Nitsche M, Bermpohl F, Antal A, Feredoes E, Marcolin MA, Rigonatti SP, Silva MT, Paulus W, Pascual-Leone A.

The use of tDCS and CVS as methods of non-invasive brain stimulation
Gregory Beena, Trung T. Ngoa, b, Steven M. Millera, b and Paul B. Fitzgeralda

Interesting. So is this just an hypothesis? Are you going to test it? Or are you just putting it out there for us to test? I for one will not be shocking my brain to try and induce a lucid dream unless you can show me statistically that it will work more often than not. Interesting idea none the less, and thank you for your research efforts.

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Originally Posted by Silverwing

Interesting. So is this just an hypothesis? Are you going to test it? Or are you just putting it out there for us to test? I for one will not be shocking my brain to try and induce a lucid dream unless you can show me statistically that it will work more often than not. Interesting idea none the less, and thank you for your research efforts.

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I either have to build the tDCS myself or buy one. Problem is most companies that sell it require you to have some medical degree to buy it.

Heres a video of some guy that built one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SymQqZYiVyA

I will build one soon. Im extremely optimistic that this will work.

Well be sure to keep us posted on your results. It looks easy enough to build, and if it works as you believe it will, then many kudos to you :)

Do you propose though, that you go to sleep with the sponges attached to your head, so that the current is applied during REM sleep? I think it will be tough to make an REM sensor... I also think it will be tough to fall asleep with a damp sponge attached to my head :P

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Originally Posted by Silverwing

Well be sure to keep us posted on your results. It looks easy enough to build, and if it works as you believe it will, then many kudos to you :)

Do you propose though, that you go to sleep with the sponges attached to your head, so that the current is applied during REM sleep? I think it will be tough to make an REM sensor... I also think it will be tough to fall asleep with a damp sponge attached to my head :P

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I will try it during WBTB at first, because from the research that I've read so far the effects of tDCS can last for hours after being used.

So I'll wake up during the night, apply the electrodes over by left and right DLPFC, turn it on and keep it on for 30 minutes than go back to sleep. Hopefully I will fall asleep with an active DLPFC which should give me a Lucid Dream.

This certainly sounds interesting, but I keep training myself to overcome my dreams, instead of some machine stimulating certain areas to produce it. I would feel awful being an effect of a machine, instead of causing them myself.

When will you be attempting to build this little device, I_H8_Reality?

It sounds very interesting and Id be really curious to know how it works for you.

I need to purchase the parts first

I need a 9v battery

Two wires one (one for the anode and one for the cathode)

I also need two wet sponges (one for the anode and one for the cathode)

Im not to good with electronics but i think i need to add some resistors so that i can get 1-2 mA.

I can't speak to this particular method, as it sounds like your plan is to stimulate that particular region of the brain by focusing a micro current across that particular region.

As you probably know, CES devices typically leverage small clips on the ear lobes. Most commercial devices focus on bi-phasic signals with modulations in the 0.5 - 3 Hz range. This has been proven to be effective for depression, insomnia, etc ...

I personally have done several years of research in this area. The general idea is quite valid, though my swipe at the problem is different than yours. I recently applied for a US patent on the idea. I believe it to be quite original. I've pretty openly discussed this invention on a certain other LD web site. Thus far, 5 experienced lucid dreamers have tried the technology. One has had less than great results. The others have had very strong results, on the order of a galantamine type response.

Like I said though, my approach is different than yours. One thing you will want to think about is the carrier, duty cycle and modulation associated with your signal. Just because 0.5 - 3 Hz is good for depression, does not mean it will have a positive result stimulating the area in question.

If you want some good journal articles on CES, especially in relation to brain wave modification measured via EEG's and so forth, check out the alpha-stim web site.

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Originally Posted by DrTechnical

I can't speak to this particular method, as it sounds like your plan is to stimulate that particular region of the brain by focusing a micro current across that particular region.

As you probably know, CES devices typically leverage small clips on the ear lobes. Most commercial devices focus on bi-phasic signals with modulations in the 0.5 - 3 Hz range. This has been proven to be effective for depression, insomnia, etc ...

I personally have done several years of research in this area. The general idea is quite valid, though my swipe at the problem is different than yours. I recently applied for a US patent on the idea. I believe it to be quite original. I've pretty openly discussed this invention on a certain other LD web site. Thus far, 5 experienced lucid dreamers have tried the technology. One has had less than great results. The others have had very strong results, on the order of a galantamine type response.

Like I said though, my approach is different than yours. One thing you will want to think about is the carrier, duty cycle and modulation associated with your signal. Just because 0.5 - 3 Hz is good for depression, does not mean it will have a positive result stimulating the area in question.

If you want some good journal articles on CES, especially in relation to brain wave modification measured via EEG's and so forth, check out the alpha-stim web site.

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Research demonstrates that CES produces a mild stimulation in the hypothalamic area of the brain, resulting in balancing neurotransmitter activity (in particular Beta Endorphin and Norepinephrine). The effects achieved are similar to that of a "jogger's high".

During CES, an electric current is focused upon the hypothalamic region; during this process, CES electrodes are placed behind the ear at the mastoid, or clipped to the upper portion of the earlobe, near to the face."

Interesting, but I think CES does not stimulate all part of the brain especially the lateral parts. Im only focused on activating the DLPFC which has been proven to be deactivated during sleep/dreams and is responsible for the loss self-awarness, consciousness, executive functions etc. associated with dreams

Yes, I agree. Your approach is different.

As I said though, this is an area ripe for exploration. I can lucid dream pretty easy so take it with a bit of a grain of salt. But if memory serves, I'm around 48/51 using CES to induce lucid dreams. That's on par w/ Galantamine/choline which also gives me about a 95% success rate. The great advantage is that these techniques appear to be completely independent. This leads to certain obvious advantages.

I'll shoot you a PM on where to find the existing posted discussion thread.

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Originally Posted by DrTechnical

Yes, I agree. Your approach is different.

As I said though, this is an area ripe for exploration. I can lucid dream pretty easy so take it with a bit of a grain of salt. But if memory serves, I'm around 48/51 using CES to induce lucid dreams. That's on par w/ Galantamine/choline which also gives me about a 95% success rate. The great advantage is that these techniques appear to be completely independent. This leads to certain obvious advantages.

I'll shoot you a PM on where to find the existing posted discussion thread.

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Do you use the CES while your asleep or during WBTB and then going to sleep?

I have had success in both cases, though the optimal protocol with my signal favors one of the cases you mentioned. In fact, using it before bed seems to potentiate AcH boosting supps.

But as you said, your method is quite different. So it is tricky to say how my method and protocol would map to your particular goal. You will want to do a lot of different experimentation. It took about 2 years for me to fine tune my method. I suspect it will take a similar effort on your part. You are also going to want a programmable device which can do a range of signal types.

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Originally Posted by DrTechnical

I have had success in both cases, though the optimal protocol with my signal favors one of the cases you mentioned. In fact, using it before bed seems to potentiate AcH boosting supps.

But as you said, your method is quite different. So it is tricky to say how my method and protocol would map to your particular goal. You will want to do a lot of different experimentation. It took about 2 years for me to fine tune my method. I suspect it will take a similar effort on your part. You are also going to want a programmable device which can do a range of signal types.

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I think I will test this, but instead of producing the effects externally, I will try ti stimulate that area mentally

I am prepared for the flack I will get regarding this post

I tried it last night for the first time and had 2 lucid dreams.

However im not sure if it was a placebo effect, because i was really excited and kept thinking about the TDCS as i was going to sleep.

I'll try it again tonight

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Originally Posted by I H8 Reality

I tried it last night for the first time and had 2 lucid dreams.

However im not sure if it was a placebo effect, because i was really excited and kept thinking about the TDCS as i was going to sleep.

I'll try it again tonight

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Any updates on this? This is a really interesting project...

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Originally Posted by Licity

Any updates on this? This is a really interesting project...

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QFT!



So all you're saying is, I need two salinized sponges, a 9v battery and wire?

i have all those things pretty much in the room I'm in!

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Originally Posted by marcc

QFT!



So all you're saying is, I need two salinized sponges, a 9v battery and wire?

i have all those things pretty much in the room I'm in!

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I think you might need a resistor or two, unless you want stinging sensations and burns like the guy in the video

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Originally Posted by Licity

I think you might need a resistor or two, unless you want stinging sensations and burns like the guy in the video

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yeah probably. at least it's only 2mA. >10mA to the heart is fatal.

to the brain, who knows. although, i'd probably like the 2.5mA version for the extra 'oomph'

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Originally Posted by marcc

yeah probably. at least it's only 2mA. >10mA to the heart is fatal.

to the brain, who knows. although, i'd probably like the 2.5mA version for the extra 'oomph'

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I think 1 mA is all that's needed for our purposes, but I don't know how much resistance the skull and skin provide.

OK, easy; 1.5v battery with a resistance of 1500 ohms = 1mA.
if this is sufficient, this is where the current limit should be placed.

bump, 1 and a half months later.

this shows promise.

I'm excited about this! Can anyone give a few detailed, and somewhat less confusing instructions? I might test it.

Also, I wanna make sure that I H8 reality didn't burn his brains out, which is why he hasn't posted here in over a month. ;)

Careful guys.

Interesting read. I remember hearing about something like this in my psychology class. A more-painful shock treatment still used today to treat depression and such but only as a last resort after psychotherapy and prescriptions fail.

I'm interested in hearing more about this. I've been wondering how exactly are we not lucid in all our dreams and not just facts but a scientific explanation. You made it easy for me.

I'm looking foward to more results on this. Have you figured a way to beat the placebo? I would suggest have a friend try it and not let him know it is suppose to induce lucid dreaming but then again we would probably wonder why.

Thanks :)