An idea for having Lucid Dreams the scientific way

A problem we all have in dreams is that we see absurd going ons but we fail to realize that these things just don't happen in waking life, we just accept them and move on failing to recognize the obvious signs of a dream in progress.

According to Wikipedia the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex is involved in lucid dreams.

This is what they have to say on that:

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The first step to lucid dreaming is recognizing that one is dreaming. This recognition might occur in the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, which is one of the few areas deactivated during REM sleep and where non sleeping memory occurs.

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In theory, one would stimulate this area of the brain during REM sleep (with electrodes) and this would activate that region of the brain( in theory giving the person much more awareness) thus increasing their chances of having a lucid dream exponentially.

What do you guys all think? Would it work? Would the electrode stimulation of the brain startle a patient awake at all?

Note to mods: because this is about science and lucid dreams i think this is the appropiate forum. Plz dont move this :?

As far as I'm concerned, whoever wrote that was just making random stuff up. Who says that memory is involved in critical examination? Why would it be on during sleep when it... never is. I mean, are there any scientific studies at all supporting this?

Also, who says you can just 'turn on' a cognitive function via an electrode? I'm sure it's much more complex than that.

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Originally Posted by Xei

Also, who says you can just 'turn on' a cognitive function via an electrode? I'm sure it's much more complex than that.

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Thanks for posting, Xei.

This is where my assumption came from:

I recall reading an article about a study where they hooked up electrodes to a rats brain and were able to induce its brain to release endorphins (or dopamine) which caused it to feel "happy".

They hooked up a lever beside its food and water and the rat could stimulate its brain via electrodes whenever it pressed the electrodes. The rat actually stopped eating and drinking and just pressed the lever over and over until it died. I'm trying to find a link to the story but i'm not having much luck.

Already been attempted: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=80074

Granted, this was one person, it wouldn't be unreasonable to try it out yourself to see if I H8 Reality made errors somewhere.

I cannot accurately comment on the validity of this claim; however, I can point you to an article from which this hypothesis is proclaimed: Here.

Apparently, Voss et al. (2009) have shown that lucid dreaming is associated with EEG activation different to non-lucid dreaming and waking consciousness. It is said to lay between the two aforementioned states, where there is 40hz more power in 'the frontal regions' than in non-lucid dreams. This may explain why lucidity is often lost to non-lucidity or waking consciousness.

Wehrle et al. (2005; 2007) found that in lucid dreams frontal areas were highly activated compared to non-lucid dreams, but that this also included higher activation in temporal and occipital sites too.

Thus, as of now, it would appear to be unclear which specific areas elicit lucidity - indeed, correlation does not imply causation. However, such results do, at least, indicate which areas are involved in some fashion.

Hurr, even if we pinpointed a "lucidity center," that "lights up" whenever you are lucid, it doesn't mean that stimulating it will produce lucidity. That's like saying stimulating your occipital lobe will cause you to see, or stimulating your Brocha's area will cause you to speak. But that's not how the brain works. There's more involved, here. I'll describe speaking to illustrate my point. First, you must already be thinking about something (frontal lobe), then you think about what you're going to say (frontal lobe, Wernicke's area, Broca's area), the words you'll use (Wernicke's), and whether or not you're really going to say it (frontal lobe, and if you choose to speak, thalamus, then cerebellum and Broca's).

And what I described is a general outline of speech. If you stimulated those spots in the brain, even in order, I doubt you'd end up with speech, simply because the conscious mind wouldn't know why it was being stimulated. You'd end up hallucinating (hearing voices, most likely) and maybe babbling a nonsense syllable or two, as your mind tried making sense of the spontaneous stimulation.

If getting someone to utter anything via brain stimulation is that difficult, think how implausible it is to stimulate someone into speaking a specific sentence!

Similarly, think of how hard it would be to stimulate someone into thinking a specific thought! There's a web it has to go through, highly coordinated, spread over parts in the entire cerebrum, and the specific path (though the term "path" is misleading. It's more like a series of paths running simultaneously, and multiple sets of paths can lead to the same spot.) to a specific thought is different, specialized in each person.

Even if you stimulated their "center of awareness," they wouldn't have an idea as to why they're feeling enlightened/aware, so, much like a drug trip, they'd hallucinate a reason.

And thank evolution for that! Thank evolution for this complexity, this security system. I'd find it highly, incredibly unnerving if we were ever to find a way to electronically, instantly induce specific thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Abra

Hurr, even if we pinpointed a "lucidity center," that "lights up" whenever you are lucid, it doesn't mean that stimulating it will produce lucidity. That's like saying stimulating your occipital lobe will cause you to see, or stimulating your Brocha's area will cause you to speak. But that's not how the brain works. There's more involved, here. I'll describe speaking to illustrate my point. First, you must already be thinking about something (frontal lobe), then you think about what you're going to say (frontal lobe, Wernicke's area, Broca's area), the words you'll use (Wernicke's), and whether or not you're really going to say it (frontal lobe, and if you choose to speak, thalamus, then cerebellum and Broca's).

And what I described is a general outline of speech. If you stimulated those spots in the brain, even in order, I doubt you'd end up with speech, simply because the conscious mind wouldn't know why it was being stimulated. You'd end up hallucinating (hearing voices, most likely) and maybe babbling a nonsense syllable or two, as your mind tried making sense of the spontaneous stimulation.

If getting someone to utter anything via brain stimulation is that difficult, think how implausible it is to stimulate someone into speaking a specific sentence!

Similarly, think of how hard it would be to stimulate someone into thinking a specific thought! There's a web it has to go through, highly coordinated, spread over parts in the entire cerebrum, and the specific path (though the term "path" is misleading. It's more like a series of paths running simultaneously, and multiple sets of paths can lead to the same spot.) to a specific thought is different, specialized in each person.

Even if you stimulated their "center of awareness," they wouldn't have an idea as to why they're feeling enlightened/aware, so, much like a drug trip, they'd hallucinate a reason.

And thank evolution for that! Thank evolution for this complexity, this security system. I'd find it highly, incredibly unnerving if we were ever to find a way to electronically, instantly induce specific thoughts.

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Stimulating my occipital lobe might not immediately cause me to see, but it would certainly make it a little easier to analyze the impulses on my optic nerve, no?

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Originally Posted by Abra

Hurr, even if we pinpointed a "lucidity center," that "lights up" whenever you are lucid, it doesn't mean that stimulating it will produce lucidity. That's like saying stimulating your occipital lobe will cause you to see, or stimulating your Brocha's area will cause you to speak. But that's not how the brain works. There's more involved, here. I'll describe speaking to illustrate my point. First, you must already be thinking about something (frontal lobe), then you think about what you're going to say (frontal lobe, Wernicke's area, Broca's area), the words you'll use (Wernicke's), and whether or not you're really going to say it (frontal lobe, and if you choose to speak, thalamus, then cerebellum and Broca's).

And what I described is a general outline of speech. If you stimulated those spots in the brain, even in order, I doubt you'd end up with speech, simply because the conscious mind wouldn't know why it was being stimulated. You'd end up hallucinating (hearing voices, most likely) and maybe babbling a nonsense syllable or two, as your mind tried making sense of the spontaneous stimulation.

If getting someone to utter anything via brain stimulation is that difficult, think how implausible it is to stimulate someone into speaking a specific sentence!

Similarly, think of how hard it would be to stimulate someone into thinking a specific thought! There's a web it has to go through, highly coordinated, spread over parts in the entire cerebrum, and the specific path (though the term "path" is misleading. It's more like a series of paths running simultaneously, and multiple sets of paths can lead to the same spot.) to a specific thought is different, specialized in each person.

Even if you stimulated their "center of awareness," they wouldn't have an idea as to why they're feeling enlightened/aware, so, much like a drug trip, they'd hallucinate a reason.

And thank evolution for that! Thank evolution for this complexity, this security system. I'd find it highly, incredibly unnerving if we were ever to find a way to electronically, instantly induce specific thoughts.

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This is true, however we already can influence specifics. They've shown in a lab setting that by hooking up electrodes to the brains of bugs and stimulating certain areas, they can 'remote control' the bugs and make them go left or right, up or down, but pushing a few keys at a computer.

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Originally Posted by ExoByte

This is true, however we already can influence specifics. They've shown in a lab setting that by hooking up electrodes to the brains of bugs and stimulating certain areas, they can 'remote control' the bugs and make them go left or right, up or down, but pushing a few keys at a computer.

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Wouldn't they be stimulating something akin to a primitive cerebellum? So what they're doing is knee-jerking their way into specifics?

I guess we could make someone say something by that method, much more easily than the method I outlined. . . But it wouldn't be a cognitive change.

Yeah, stimulating visual areas results in the subject perceiving random streaks of colour etc.

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Originally Posted by Quark

Yeah, stimulating visual areas results in the subject perceiving random streaks of colour etc.

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If my visual area is not working, I probably won't see anything. If you get current flowing, and the area activates, I am able to see again.

If my logical area is not working due to sleep shutdown, I will likely be irrational and not realize inconsistencies in the dream around me. If the logical areas are stimulated and begin working again, then doesn't it follow that using logic becomes possible again?

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Originally Posted by Licity

If my visual area is not working, I probably won't see anything. If you get current flowing, and the area activates, I am able to see again.

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Er, seriously? Does this work in the blind? And what is seen?

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If my logical area is not working due to sleep shutdown, I will likely be irrational and not realize inconsistencies in the dream around me. If the logical areas are stimulated and begin working again, then doesn't it follow that using logic becomes possible again?

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Using logic might become easier, but it might not be good logic. Again, without some existing internal suspicion that you are dreaming, how would that activation guarantee that you correctly apply your new "logical" feeling?

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Originally Posted by Abra

Er, seriously? Does this work in the blind? And what is seen?

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If the eyes or optic nerve or that part of the brain are physically incapable of seeing, it obviously wouldn't work because there is no visual input. If you reactivate the vision center of the brain in an otherwise healthy person, won't it enable the processing of what the eyes are detecting?

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Originally Posted by Abra

Using logic might become easier, but it might not be good logic. Again, without some existing internal suspicion that you are dreaming, how would that activation guarantee that you correctly apply your new "logical" feeling?

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The OP and the research indicate the reason that we don't object to oddities in a dream is because we are incapable of making the logical connection that what is in front of you cannot possibly be real. Logic, by definition, is what provides the existing internal suspicion of dream by pointing out to the rest of the brain that bugs usually don't wear purple hats, or whatever your dream sign may be. If you are going to continue insisting that logic cannot discover a dream on its own, how do you explain away people that have a lucid dream without knowing what it is?

The activation of the logic center isn't a magic bullet, it just boosts the odds of becoming lucid. It's like a lucidity aid, but for dream signs instead of vividness.