Whenever I feel doubtful about my goal towards LD'ing I come back to this thread for motivation. I really gain a boost in confidence after reading your posts, Sageous. Thank you!
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Whenever I feel doubtful about my goal towards LD'ing I come back to this thread for motivation. I really gain a boost in confidence after reading your posts, Sageous. Thank you!
Sorry to quote you back at yourself, but I really liked what you were saying in these two paragraphs:
The thing is, I feel like I have been trying to do what you suggest here. When I said doing the 'opposite of what I normally do', I think I meant opposing my tendencies to do what seemed easiest rather than what felt 'right' and to try to create an ideal "self" to aspire to rather than simply being. But you're right, I do get a bit serious and intellectual about it all, which came out in the way I tried to describe what I've been doing. So thanks for picking me up on that - it's taken me a while to digest, but that's probably a good sign.
I was watching the most recent episode of "Hanibal" and thought of this thread and Reverse Reality Checks. Also interesting in the episode the main character "Will" drew a picture of a clock as requested by Hanibal Lecter and it looked like a dream like representation of a clock and was diagnosed as being a problem with spatial awareness I think. He also mentioned starting to doubt if his halucinations were not dreams but happening in waking life...Anyway...Hanibal suggested that he daily think of Where he was, When, and Who. That is the part that reminded me of the RRC. Though not identical, the post that Ctharlie pointed to in a recent post on this thread, had similar components that you suggested to add to an RRC. It got me thinking of whether it would be of benefit to ask those questions and more (or less for that matter)...Where I am, When, Who I am, Why I am here or I Why left where I was 15 minutes ago, How I got from there to here, What I am doing. The who would become rote but the others should vary. What do you think Sageous?
By the way, I am also still using the perspective thing where I see my self from various vantage points. Have you ever tried Hukif's gravity reality check?
I think those are some pretty complex questions, especially when considering that you must ask them during the fog of a dream! Also, I think they are actually closer to a standard RC, because they lack the RRC's "reverse" bit that helps you unite your self-awareness with your dream.
However: If you can handle the complexity, that would be a very excellent RC indeed! After all, those questions lead you to confirm your state from numerous angles (i.e., realizing that you actually did not get from there to here in the first place), to seek explanations for why you are in a dream scenario, and to fire up your memory. Just honestly asking yourself those questions would likely be enough to determine your state -- and might lead to some fascinating introspection during waking-life practice!
Very interesting idea, fogelbise!
Sorry, I never heard of Hukif's gravity reality check; what does it entail?Quote:
By the way, I am also still using the perspective thing where I see my self from various vantage points. Have you ever tried Hukif's gravity reality check?
I hope I don't get this wrong, but basically it involves training a constant awareness of gravity's effect on you. Constantly noting that feeling of gravity with the idea that distorted gravity is one of the most common dream signs...especially floating, flying, being able to lift things easily (or not as easily as normal), running like the wind or having a hard time running anywhere as if held back by very heavy gravity, REM atonia, etc... If properly trained, you could possibly notice the dream sign as soon as you enter the dream.
^^ That is a clever RC, and it avoids the waking-life RC side-effect of looking a little silly when you're practicing it.
Again, though, it must be done without letting it get too intellectually complicated... like just feel the pressure of your own weight on your heels as the test, without thinking about why that pressure exists. That way, in the dream, with your memory still switched off, you don't have that "why" presented in the most reasonable of terms by your dreaming mind. Better to simply not feel that pressure on your heels, which is extremely likely, and realize you're dreaming. Clever!
Thanks for sharing, fogelbise!
Hey Sageous (and the rest of the community of course),
After being a lurker for about a year now (and I have to add that I am of the kind who likes to soak up information and online post if I got the feeling that there is no way to obtain the information otherwise) I basically came to the conclusion that there are two methods or techniques that really fit me well. I didn't have that many lucids yet, but when I did it usually just happened to be so for no apparent reason and that's why I think training self-awareness explained by you (or ADA by KingYoshi which is really similar) and SSILD by CosmicIron works best for me.
Now after reading through most of your threads and a lot of other topics I still got two questions I was hoping you could answer:
1. Although I know your opinion of techniques in general I would really like to hear your opinion on SSILD especially looking at the underlying principle explained in one of the threads by CosmicIron.
2. I tend to have quite a few moments of lucidity, but what usually happens is that a few seconds after, my vision turns black and another dream (in which I am not lucid) or a false awakening follows even though I know this is going to happen. Is it just a lack of experience or am I focusing my thoughts in the wrong direction?
I am really looking forward to hearing from you.
Welcome, Era! Here are brief answers to your questions; I hope they help:
1. I don't see anything wrong with SSILD at all, and if it works for you, then go for it. SSILD seems to be a clean, simple (not in a bad way) technique for WILD, and if used as instructed -- with that requisite chunk of self-awareness, memory, and expectation -- it seems an effective technique. [Quick note: WILD is not actually a technique, but the description of a state of mind (same with DILD).]
A nice thing about SSILD, I think, is that it doesn't waste time on rules and regulations, as so many other WILD techniques do, and its primary function is getting you to the dream, regardless of whether the route is WILD or DILD. This is important, because too many techniques are focused on the technique, rather than the results. So yeah, SSILD is just fine.
... Indeed, whatever technique you choose is fine, and it likely will work as long as the fundamentals are in place. ;)
2. I would chalk this up to lack of experience, meaning that in time you will find that "sweet spot" where your self-awareness and your dream are on the same page. Why this specifically is happening could come from a number of things, like timing your LD attempt poorly (ie, you are becoming lucid at the end of a REM period, so there is nothing to dream -- that blank spot could be a brief period of NREM, and its understandable that lucidity vaproizes during it), that you are too excited or confused, you're simply not paying enough attention to the dream itself (aka focusing your thoughts in the wrong direction), or something else altogether. As you become accustomed to the presence of your self-awareness in dreams, I think you'll find it fairly easy to identify what's going wrong and put a stop to it. There are threads and tutorials on prolonging the dream here at DV's but I suggest that you hold off on going there for advice until you've got a few more LD's under your belt.
Thanks a lot! This actually was exactly the kind of answer I was looking for!
Sageous is very good at that! Sageous, I don't know if you remember my over-analytical tendency in relation to the RRC and I think we agreed on a good way to handle that but I did want to ask you another question to see if you think I may be drifting off track. I still use a variation of Lidybug's perspective where I basically look back at myself from different vantage points (through imagination, not reflections/mirrors) and have found myself looking right at myself in dreams and triggering lucidity a few times. I do that at the same time as my RRC and RC. Yesterday I started thinking about specifics again for the RRC/self-awareness check-in and just wondered if you thought I might be heading back to my over-analytical tendencies. I was thinking about how as I touch things like a piece of cloth it can crease, take a new shape, or make a sound and create heat from the friction and then trying to make a more dream like connection I was thinking about how you can bring emotions into a room (like you bring emotions of joy, love, fear, anger or jealousy into your dreams it seems)..happy emotions can bring up a group of people just as negative ones can bring down a group of people..or how a great smile can often light up the room, in waking life. What do you think?
^^ The bit about touching the piece of cloth on its own is a good idea; I do similar things myself, because sometimes the simplest exchanges with reality are the best indicators of your presence in it. But I would leave it at the action itself, and wonder about just that action (i.e., do no more than wonder "about how as I touch things like a piece of cloth it can crease, take a new shape, or make a sound and create heat from the friction").
To then go into an abstract like how you can bring emotions into a room is to attach too much intellectual thought to the moment, I think. Such thought might force you to add things that simply were not there, and thus do not truly reflect your interaction with reality. You might save thoughts like this for RRC's that happen just after you actually did bring emotions into a room (not a bad time for a RRC anyway!), because, if you just experienced such a vectoring "for real," you can wonder about it honestly without needing to add "deeper" thoughts to the interaction.
So yeah, I guess you may have been dipping into that over-analytical well again! Be careful of that...
Hey Sageous, and other fellow LDers
I've been practicing DILD primarily and might give WILD a shot if the opportunity presents itself. Although I feel my question I'd relevant to DILD
I've been working hard on recall and getting results, but onto my question...
When I do the self awareness training or rrc, should I just realize that I'm here and I affect things and things affect me?
I might overthinking it... For instance should I think,"I affect joe if I call him names", or just realizing "I affect others."
I guess what I'm asking is should it be personal to your life?
Thanks
^^ Yes, it should be as personal, or directly related, to you and your immediate locale. Indeed, it shouldn't be "I effect Joe if I call him names," but something like, "Look how I made Joe feel when I called him that name, and what made me do it?"
In a RRC, you're wondering about your interaction with reality recently, now, and in the near future; looking into the specifics of that interaction makes it real, while simply acknowledging that you interacted ("just realize that I'm here and I affect things and things affect me?") may be too abstract to help you get in the proper mindset. This holds come dreamtime as well, because it's those specifics that'll help you remember that this "reality" is all your own dream!
Very interesting thread, you appear to be quite the guru. I have a medley of questions that are sort of all over the place, they might not all be within your area of expertise, but I'm really quite curious as to your opinions seeing as you're quite possibly one of the most seasoned and perhaps even skilled lucid dreamers on the internet.
1. First I just wanted your opinion on what I've been doing in attempts to maximize my lucidity. I'll include both what I do, and my reasons for doing it, so if you think that my expectations for a certain technique are flawed, or that I could be better served practicing something else, I'd truly like to know.
I try to write down all of my dreams with reasonable amounts of detail, and then every night when I go to bed (usually takes me awhile to fall asleep) I'll think about those dreams from the night before, and imagine myself becoming lucid in them, and then doing something creative if I can think of something. I figure that this exercise should help both my visualization and dream creativity skills, and I also like to think that many repetitions of 'becoming lucid' in my reimagined dreams would lead to my becoming lucid more often in real time dreams, but that's really just speculation on my part.
Throughout the day I try to be aware of my current context, in both broad and narrow terms, for instance, when I remember, I'll think something like "home for the summer 2013, eating breakfast in the morning", in hopes of increasing my situational awareness so that when I have dreams where I'm at the university rather than home for the summer like I am in real life, or even dreams back in high school, I'll know that something is amiss as question my reality. And since reading this thread I also plan on trying to keep in mind what I was doing 15 minutes ago.
I try and meditate as much as I can (vipassana) both seated closed eye breathe and open eyed walking styled, which I do to increase my more general awareness and concentration abilities. (more on this in question 2) And I also do some sort of ADA styled external awareness type stuff just throughout the day, mostly with the visual sense noticing the oddities of light/reflection, just in hopes to made my dreams more vivid.
2. Reading/skimming through this thread, I had noticed that you said that you had practiced some vipassana yourself, and I of course also noticed your very common theme of promoting 'self-awareness' as critical for consistent high level lucid dreams. One of the main realizations that comes out of vipassana is how we tend to spend all day just thinking, thinking, thinking, being lost in thought without knowing that we're lost in thought, and when you observe this stream of thought closely enough you lose the sense that there is a 'self' doing the observing, and sort of lose your feeling of being an 'I' seperate from the rest of the world. This view of the self as an illusion is consistent with the current view of most neuroscientists who see the self as a construct, sewn together from thoughts, memories, and emotions, like a story being told to put ourselves in relation to others. I was wondering how this jived with your strong advocacy of cultivating self awareness, and am curious as to your opinion both to the truth of the 'self as an illusion' point of view, and to it's relation to lucid dreaming, just intuitively I would imagine that a dualistic view is more conducive to lucid dreaming in general, and that even if it's true that the self is nothing more than a story (which I think that it is) that it would be better to not bring that attitude into the 'lucid game'.
3. In regards to extending lucid dreams, I was wondering if this is something that really just increases with experience, or if there is something that one can actively be doing to cultivate the skill. And also if there is any relation between ones ability with 'dream control' and the ability to extend a lucid dream, or if these are two completely seperate entities.
4. I had noticed that you somewhat commonly evoke a sort of evolutionary theme in your posts on this forum, which made me wonder if you had an opinion as to the function of dreams. There has obviously been a lot of controversy in this area over the years, from the abstract meanings that Freud adovated to REM consolidation to the more recent activation-synthesis hypotheses.
5. And finally, since lucid dreaming has obviously been on your radar for decades, I was curious as to how often you bring it up in conversation in real life, how people usually respond to you when you do, and to why you think that lucid dreaming is a relatively unknown to the general population.
6. Oops I thought of another one. In the early life of this thread, you wrote a lot about your current, transcendental goals, something involving a trinity I believe, so I was just curious as to whether you've made any progress towards those goals in the past year. And also, now that I think of it, I'm curious as to whether your lucid skills in general are still improving at all noticeably after all these years of training.
I know this is an awfully large amount of questions, and while I eagerly await your reply to any of them, I'll understand if you don't have time to get to them for awhile.
^^ Yes indeedy, PresentMoment, that is a large amount of questions, and very well constructed ones at that! I promise to properly answer them all as soon as I can, but please be patient...
PresentMoment:
Not a guru at all; merely a long-time dreamer who continues to pay attention. I sincerely hope your kind words are sustained after you read my answers below, though, as I have a feeling I may only generate more questions:Quote:
Very interesting thread, you appear to be quite the guru. I have a medley of questions that are sort of all over the place, they might not all be within your area of expertise, but I'm really quite curious as to your opinions seeing as you're quite possibly one of the most seasoned and perhaps even skilled lucid dreamers on the internet.
That is an interesting technique, sort of a MILD variety I think, where you are focused on setting intention and building solid expectation. It seems to me it would work just fine -- as long as you are still doing mental prep involving self-awareness and memory.Quote:
1. First I just wanted your opinion on what I've been doing in attempts to maximize my lucidity. I'll include both what I do, and my reasons for doing it, so if you think that my expectations for a certain technique are flawed, or that I could be better served practicing something else, I'd truly like to know.
I try to write down all of my dreams with reasonable amounts of detail, and then every night when I go to bed (usually takes me awhile to fall asleep) I'll think about those dreams from the night before, and imagine myself becoming lucid in them, and then doing something creative if I can think of something. I figure that this exercise should help both my visualization and dream creativity skills, and I also like to think that many repetitions of 'becoming lucid' in my reimagined dreams would lead to my becoming lucid more often in real time dreams, but that's really just speculation on my part.
Why? Because focus on expectations and intentions alone, without including the other two fundamentals, could lead your dreaming mind (aka unconscious) to oblige your wishes and give you the dreams and formats you are asking for, in the form of false lucid dreams (“dreaming,” that you are lucid without a hint of self-awareness). There must be components of self-awareness at least, and self-awareness plus memory at best, in order to become aware that you are dreaming. So, your personal levels of self-awareness and memory must be high enough (and yours probably are) to snap to attention when you remember during the dream that you had made all these preparations, or else you might just wind up dreaming that you are lucid. [Yes, I'm already blathering on about self-awareness; more on that in a minute.]
This again sounds more like setting intention and building expectation to make a DILD more likely, which is a fine thing to do. But it may only seem that way, unfortunately. Be aware that if you spend a lot of waking time confirming where you are and what you are doing, and explaining to yourself that this is the way it is supposed to be, you might be inadvertently training your mind to do the same thing during a dream. In other words, this practice might cause your DC “you” to explain to yourself during the dream that this grammar school that you are attending on the moon is exactly where you are supposed to be; you’ll be thinking that “I’m at school, doing my lessons on lunar farming,” and, for lack of memory and awareness, you’ll be content with that as reality.Quote:
Throughout the day I try to be aware of my current context, in both broad and narrow terms, for instance, when I remember, I'll think something like "home for the summer 2013, eating breakfast in the morning", in hopes of increasing my situational awareness so that when I have dreams where I'm at the university rather than home for the summer like I am in real life, or even dreams back in high school, I'll know that something is amiss as question my reality.
It might be better to question, rather than confirm. Ask yourself if this is a dreamscape you're in: if this kitchen is really your home, if it really is 2013, and if these flakes before you are really breakfast. Then, after the question is in place comes the time to confirm that this is reality (or not!). Your dreaming mind is hard-wired to convince you that the schema you are experiencing is real; you might not want to reinforce that conviction in your waking-life wiring as well. This, of course, is the foundation of LaBerge’s state testing (RC’s).
That’s an excellent idea, and might be just what you need to augment the other practices!Quote:
And since reading this thread I also plan on trying to keep in mind what I was doing 15 minutes ago.
Both are fine things to practice, I think. Also, if you are “watching your breath” while practicing the "Reverse Reality Checks (RRC's)" that I repeatedly mention in my WILD class, you will likely have a heightened, more productive experience.Quote:
I try and meditate as much as I can (vipassana) both seated closed eye breathe and open eyed walking styled, which I do to increase my more general awareness and concentration abilities. (more on this in question 2) And I also do some sort of ADA styled external awareness type stuff just throughout the day, mostly with the visual sense noticing the oddities of light/reflection, just in hopes to made my dreams more vivid. .
Okay, this one’s a lulu, so bear with me:Quote:
2. Reading/skimming through this thread, I had noticed that you said that you had practiced some vipassana yourself, and I of course also noticed your very common theme of promoting 'self-awareness' as critical for consistent high level lucid dreams. One of the main realizations that comes out of vipassana is how we tend to spend all day just thinking, thinking, thinking, being lost in thought without knowing that we're lost in thought, and when you observe this stream of thought closely enough you lose the sense that there is a 'self' doing the observing, and sort of lose your feeling of being an 'I' separate from the rest of the world. This view of the self as an illusion is consistent with the current view of most neuroscientists who see the self as a construct, sewn together from thoughts, memories, and emotions, like a story being told to put ourselves in relation to others. I was wondering how this jived with your strong advocacy of cultivating self awareness, and am curious as to your opinion both to the truth of the 'self as an illusion' point of view, and to it's relation to lucid dreaming, just intuitively I would imagine that a dualistic view is more conducive to lucid dreaming in general, and that even if it's true that the self is nothing more than a story (which I think that it is) that it would be better to not bring that attitude into the 'lucid game'.
I think you and I are on a different page regarding self-awareness, so I’m not sure if my answer to this question will help or interest you, but here it is anyway:
I see self-awareness as very much a non-dual form of thought, actually, and in all honesty feel that duality is very bad for LD’ing, especially LD’ing of the advanced variety. If you look closely at the RRC, you will notice that it is nothing more than a first stride toward uniting your self with your local reality, at least in terms of direct causality or, better, interaction. This is very important, because in a dream there is no duality, only you.
If during the dream you find yourself establishing a “self” that is just a story while also being within a story created by, yes, your self, then confusion and non-lucidity stand a good chance of following. Indeed, by allowing a dualistic viewpoint to reign in a dream, you are allowing the dream itself to be elevated to a level of importance and “reality” that might exceed the importance of your own presence; the constructed "reality" of the dream trumps the actual reality of your waking consciousness. Bring an attitude like that into a dream with you, and lucidity will be very difficult to hold onto, I think, especially because this dualistic acceptance of the dream as reality is essentially the definition of the non-lucid dream experience.
Also, this non-duality approach is one held not just by me, but by folks like the yogis of dream and sleep. This concept -- that you must be aware that you have a position in reality, and are always a participant in, never just an outside observer of, reality -- is not a new one, and forms the foundation of a great many (if not all) of the higher-end transcendental philosophies (I personally place LD’ing and what it represents in that category).
...Okay, that’s the important bit for me, and sorry if making it the priority left the answer slightly out of sequence; now back to the rest of this complex question:
I have and do practice a form of Vipassana meditation, though I had no idea I was doing so until many years after I had begun the practice. Regarding the Vipassana experience, keep in mind that, by realizing we (all) “tend to spend all day just thinking, thinking, thinking, being lost in thought without knowing that we're lost in thought, etc,” you create an opportunity to recognize your presence in reality, your impact on it and its on you, and that all that empty thought is a distraction. Yes, you have a unique identity, but that identity (and it’s source in the self) is interacting with the greater reality all the time and in both directions. The whole point of Vipassana-like meditation, I think, is to take a moment to realize that “you” do exist, in spite of all the time you waste ignoring that existence, and that you are a part of reality, and not just an observer. Carry this mindset into the dream, where you literally affect everything around you and everything around you is literally you, and lucidity and dream control will be virtual no-brainers. So Vipassana meditation is more a first step than a method for defining what I practice.
Next:
Though for different reasons, I am fine with a view of the self as an illusion, as a construct formed by “thoughts, memories, and emotions, like a story being told to put ourselves in relation to others.” Why not? After all, whether the self is an illusion created by our physical body’s experience or there is some higher-consciousness-borne being driving that experience, the end result is still the same: There is a “self” that we consciously and actively identify with, and that self, be it story or entity, is what defines our position in reality. In other words, whether self is an illusion or not, self-awareness still matters. So, if the neuroscientists are right and this “story of self” is all that defines us, self-awareness would still make a fine tool for lucidity – simply adjust that story to include an ability to know you are dreaming!
As you may have noticed by now, I don’t tend to agree with the neuroscientists. Their understandable view (they are neuroscientists) seems to belittle sentience and self-awareness, making it a function of firing neurons rather than the whole being greater than the sum of the parts, which to me is the root of consciousness, spiritual growth, and the neuroscientists’ ability to posit their theories in the first place.
I personally think that the length of your LD tends to be the result of experience or very good luck. So, barring that luck, only by becoming well-accustomed to being aware in your dreams will you also have a tendency to easily prolong lucidity on a consistent basis. In other words, you must practice in order to know that the dream will last. The same goes for dream control, which I suppose makes them related in their need for experience and solid self-awareness and memory. Beyond that: no, there is no relation between the two. You can have a very long LD without a moment of control, and be omnipotent in your LD yet unable to keep yourself from waking up after five minutes.Quote:
3. In regards to extending lucid dreams, I was wondering if this is something that really just increases with experience, or if there is something that one can actively be doing to cultivate the skill. And also if there is any relation between ones ability with 'dream control' and the ability to extend a lucid dream, or if these are two completely separate entities.
That said, I am a somewhat lonely voice when speaking this opinion. If you browse the Dream Control forum on this site, for instance, you’ll find many, many threads replete with techniques and testimonials promising instant god-like control or methods for prolonging dreams with the simplest of spins.
I used to give a lot of thought to the function of dreams, but not so much anymore. For me they are simply another vehicle of consciousness which, when sentience (self-awareness) is applied, allows me to explore depths of my being that are simply not accessible to me during waking life.Quote:
4. I had noticed that you somewhat commonly evoke a sort of evolutionary theme in your posts on this forum, which made me wonder if you had an opinion as to the function of dreams. There has obviously been a lot of controversy in this area over the years, from the abstract meanings that Freud advocated to REM consolidation to the more recent activation-synthesis hypotheses.
I think the evolutionary theme you noticed is my opining that the potentials of dreams, be they real or imagined, changed for humans the moment we became sentient, or aware that we were aware. The function of dreams, in terms of brain activity during sleep, is the same as it ever was (as I’m fairly sure it is with all mammals), but once we gained the ability to remember our dreams and even consciously participate in them, we began to attach meaning, importance, spiritual value, and even mythology to them. I suppose that is an evolutionary thing, but I think it was actually more an imaginative thing, once we could train our imaginations on where we just were when we were asleep.
I never bring it up in conversation, and haven’t for many years.Quote:
5. And finally, since lucid dreaming has obviously been on your radar for decades, I was curious as to how often you bring it up in conversation in real life, how people usually respond to you when you do, and to why you think that lucid dreaming is a relatively unknown to the general population.
About five minutes after I first started breathlessly proclaiming my lucid discoveries back in the 1970’s, I noticed my friends' and family’s eyes glazing over with startling speed. I learned quickly that most people aren’t terribly interested in dreams at all, and those who are hold very specific viewpoints of them which rarely dovetail with mine. So, since trying to tell them about my experiences was both perfectly alien to them, and more than a little dull, I ceased bothering. There was no point, save listening to myself talk.
More importantly, though, I hold dreaming as a very personal event, to the point where others -- even other accomplished LD’ers -- simply will not understand what I’m saying because they lack the context of my experience in specific dreams, and vise-versa (which is the main reason I don’t post DJ entries, BTW).
These days, people who’ve read my work or similar ask me about dreams and I will respond (duh), but I’m not sure that counts. Funny thing about even those folks, though, is that even they lose interest quickly. It could be me, I suppose! ;)
I hadn’t realized that I had mentioned my “trinity engine” here, but I guess it’s been such a large part of my life this last year that I couldn’t help it. The trinity engine is a difficult metaphor to create and employ, so I’m still working on it and probably will be for a while… it might take the rest of my life to get it to work properly. I suppose I can safely say that I’ve made progress, but I manage to set goals that may be literally unattainable, so that progress is incremental, and often frustratingly slow.Quote:
6. Oops I thought of another one. In the early life of this thread, you wrote a lot about your current, transcendental goals, something involving a trinity I believe, so I was just curious as to whether you've made any progress towards those goals in the past year. And also, now that I think of it, I'm curious as to whether your lucid skills in general are still improving at all noticeably after all these years of training.
Are my skills still improving? I want to say yes, because my global skills –- the fundamentals, as it were –- are becoming more a part of my being every day, my high-level lucids are better than ever, and (with three rarely recurring exceptions) I tend to be mildly lucid in almost all of my dreams. But I honestly cannot say so, because, unfortunately I’m in a race of sorts that I hadn’t counted on 30 years ago: I’m competing with age.
As my body ages, it seems to cough up every day some new obstacle to impede my progress – i.e., difficulty with memory and holding focus, physical impairments, the amazing speed with which the days pass, and a very unhelpful disinterest in going to sleep. These new obstacles are threatening to stymie my progress and possibly cause regression (especially in the memory department). Still, it’s a race I expect to win by making adjustments to my waking life activities and more cleverly scheduling LD’ing attempts.
Okay then, that’s what I have for now. I hope some of what I said made sense (ask again if it didn’t), and all apologies for the extreme brevity -- time was not on my side, I’m afraid.
Hey Sageous,
I've noticed when I first go to bed(NREM), I just sit there and sit completely still(even with the knowledge that NREM WILDs are rare), and I try to see things behind my eyelids. Usually patterns form into a very patterny image, or I sometimes feel like I see colors for a mere second, and when this happens my eyes start twitching a bit and sometimes open ever so slightly.
Do these patterns sound like WILD 'noise' to you? Basically, should I aim for these/see them as progress?
When I wake up for WBTB I usually try to WILD right upon waking but do it VERY lazily. I can't seem to get the same patterns and then fall alseep, I plan to actually walk around my house and think dreamy for next WBTB and wake myself up a bit and try to get those same patterns.
>Also
When I'm in bed I enjoy doing the weird physical illusions such as making my body feel REALLY light, then making it feel heavy, imagine bed is sideways and I'm rotating constantly, are these helpful in any way at all? I've been wondering for a long while, especially since knowing that you shouldn't focus on the physical world while WILDing.
Always smooth,
-EmptyBucket
Well, they are noise, but they're not WILD noise,simply because you're not in the midst of a WILD. You're certainly going to experience hypnagogic imagery (HI) if you maintain awareness when falling asleep at night, because that is part of the process of falling asleep whenever you nod off. However, if your chances of staying self-aware through early (and very long) NREM stages are slim to none, or perhaps you have no expectation of an NREM dream at all, then what you are doing and seeing will not be part of a WILD. WILD by definition is nothing more than the transition from wake to sleep without loss of waking-life awareness; if you're not making that transition, you're not in a WILD.
That said, since seeing these noises represent your improving ability to stay aware as sleep approaches, sure, you could see them as progress. But try not to see experiencing them as goals or achievements, but rather signposts of your improving ability to maintain your awareness. In other words, don't "aim" for them; always aim for the dream. Remember also that if you're doing this practice at bedtime (or, better yet, during the times you naturally wake up during the night) while also having intentions set and expectations strong, you stand a pretty good chance of a DILD. So, though what you're doing may have nothing to do with a WILD beyond a little extra training, it could still be helpful to get you to lucidity. Just be sure to stay focused ton the actual goal, which is the dream!
Walking around your house is a good plan. Trying to do a WILD right upon waking is better done with DEILD, I think. Also, because WBTB stands for "Wake Back To Bed," and not "Stay In Bed and Fall Back To Sleep," you're actually not doing WBTB at all. However, if you get up slightly wake up, and reinforce your waking-life awareness by getting up and moving around for at least ten minutes (and hour might be better), dreamy thoughts in mind, then you are indeed including WBTB in your WILD attempt, right where it belongs.Quote:
When I wake up for WBTB I usually try to WILD right upon waking but do it VERY lazily. I can't seem to get the same patterns and then fall alseep, I plan to actually walk around my house and think dreamy for next WBTB and wake myself up a bit and try to get those same patterns.
Bottom line: don't be lazy! Get up, walk around, and give your mind and body a chance to work together to help you achieve that LD.
They're helpful at least because they're stirring your imagination, but not much more. Indeed, just like the noise, if you make what you're doing too important it will overshadow your desire to be awake in your dream at a time when that desire needs to be strongest.Quote:
When I'm in bed I enjoy doing the weird physical illusions such as making my body feel REALLY light, then making it feel heavy, imagine bed is sideways and I'm rotating constantly, are these helpful in any way at all? I've been wondering for a long while, especially since knowing that you shouldn't focus on the physical world while WILDing.
About the only other way they could be helpful for LD'ing is if you can somehow use the activity as a sort of mantra that keeps you in focus while your body falls asleep -- all the while keeping the upcoming dream at the forefront of your mind. Be careful of this, because you might just wind up with a non-lucid dream about rotating around in your bed while you get heavier and lighter! ;)
I need help with a problem that's been a long time coming but has only now come into full effect, I can't remember my NLDs. When I started out LDing I never had to try to remember my dreams, I wanted to and I did, after a few months I remembered 2-5 dreams on an average night. Because I never had to carry out any particular technique to recall my dreams so now that they've gone I'm at loss as what to do. I'm still practising the fundamentals at a level sufficient to lucid dream, but those are the only dreams I recall now in a more than fragmentary way.
I have no great love of my NLDs, so if I can get away with not journaling them then cool, but somehow that seems like cheating.
^^ Want to know the very best, and likely only reliable, way to remember your NLD's?
Write them down.
Sorry, Ctharlhie, but there is something very special about writing down your dreams by hand that converts them from wispy fading moments to recoverable memories. But you already knew that, didn't you? Hell, I'd bet that you even know why writing down your dreams is effective. ;)
Keeping a dream journal really is the best way to do it. You can try things like repeating a mantra like "I will remember my dreams" at bedtime (never, ever worked for me, BTW), or popping a couple of B-6's at bedtime (has worked for me), or learn to hold still upon waking and repeat everything you remember about your dreams several times (has occasionally worked for me), but in the end the best answer is to simply pick up a pen.
Full disclosure: When my dreaming career began a lifetime ago, I too had amazing dream recall (or at least that's how I remember it), but these days my NLD recall is horrifically bad. I blame my age, or the fact that my brain whirls into action a lot faster than it used to upon waking, but none of that matters, beyond the suspicion that I may not be the best source for recall techniques these days. Also, many of my NLD's are far more intriguing than many of my LD's, and I too get annoyed that I can't seem to retain them... of course, I never care enough at the time of waking to reach for a pen either!
That's what I got on this; perhaps I was the wrong person to ask? There may be techniques for dream recall that work better than a pen and paper, but if they exist, they are beyond my purview, and perhaps, my immediate belief.
I hope that helped, though I'm guessing it didn't!
I'd add that, in my experience anyway, it seems important to have some genuine interest in your NLDs if you want to remember them. That sounds totally obvious now that I've just typed it, but you said you have 'no great love' of them which suggests that that's what you're missing. After all, it's easier to remember something that you feel engaged with intellectually or emotionally, and it makes sense that your waking consciousness would discard your dreams if you don't feel much for them. I'm interested in (Jungianish) dream analysis so that's what gets me writing them down, and I get a kind of emotional repayment every time I feel like I've understood what's going on in one of them (as far as that's possible...). My suggestion would be to find your own reasons for remembering them - as a starter, you couldn't become lucid if you didn't dream, so even your NLDs should be important to you: they're the foundation of lucidity. You could start by just thinking over your dreams and wonder why you didn't become lucid, despite the fact that in one of them your dad wandered into your bedroom with a joint, got completely stoned and turned into a dinosaur (a recent example).
Anyway. Opinionrant over. :)
Sageous, I was wondering what interest you have in the content of your dreams. This comes back to the question about what you believe their function to be, so I know you don't think about that so much but I'd be interested if you could expand a bit. Do you find them purely entertaining, or useful in some way (such as some kind of psychological or spiritual dream analysis)? For example, you said you have had some very 'intriguing' NLDs - what made them so, if that's not too personal/complicated a question?
My interest in the content of NLD's? Well, it's been all over the place through the years, but, in terms of meaning, currently I can pare it down to one sentence:
A moment of NLD carries exactly the same potential for meaning as does a moment of waking life.
... Think about it; it may be less cryptic than it sounds.
Because of that, I do find NLD's entertaining, and occasionally do find some meaning in them, and sometimes they are useful in psychological and spiritual ways (just like moments of waking life can be -- but almost always are not).
Regarding function: A very long time ago I had a great interest in interpreting dreams, and, humbly, got pretty good at it. But I discovered eventually that during the act of interpretation the content of the dreams actually meant nothing at all; rather, it was the meaning the dreamer attached to the dream afterword that mattered (this is of course still a good thing, BTW -- and a place Jung often went). After that I kind of stepped away from interpretation.
More recently, I've come to wonder about this whole concept of the unconscious using dreams to help you sort out problems, review the previous day, etc. I find it hard to believe that, after millions of years of evolution and cognitive development, the best our minds can do to interface the unconscious and conscious is to summon up extremely vague, arguably random images that are immediately forgotten upon waking most of the time and, when remembered, those images can be interpreted in any manner of ways, many of those ways incorrect. That just seems too inefficient. Instead, I've come to see NLD's as simply the unconscious filling in the space of sleep with memories, reflections of day residue, and fulfillment of conscious expectation -- with occasional bursts of actual meaning, just like in waking life. Kind of dull, I know; and who knows? A little more lucid diving into the ocean of unconsciousness, and I might slide right back into the "they mean something" camp! I hope this lines up with other things I've said about this recently; if not, it's where I'm at now.
An intriguing NLD for me is one that leaves me thinking about it upon waking, or perhaps a little breathless from the adventure I just had, or the DC's I met. Because of a dreamer's tendency to accept them as real, NLD's have a potential to be powerful experiences, especially if the imagery, DC's, or memories tapped are particularly outstanding. And no, I'm not a big fan of sharing my dreams specifically, because I'm confident that they won't make much sense to other readers.
That's what I have on this. I can see how you might find it less than clear, and might even spot some contradictions, but it's what I have. Also, though I'm sure you might take issue with much of what I said, I must warn you that I don't want to get into a conversation here about the validity of NLD's or their interpretation, since this is a thread about LD'ing fundamentals. I hope you don't mind.
I was just advised (thanks F0rceez!) that this thread has been inadvertently closed since yesterday. It's open now, in case anyone wanted to post... sorry for the inconvenience!
Thanks for the reply, Sageous. It means a lot to hear from an expert that my lucid techniques aren’t completely off base. Your suggestion about questioning rather than confirming made a lot of sense and I’ve been trying to incorporate that.
I was a bit disheartened to learn that even you have given up talking to people (in real life) about lucid dreaming. I had thought that perhaps because you seem quite adept at describing them on the forums that you’d have a higher chance of success at making them sound interesting to people who have never heard of them. I was also curious, though, as to if you had a theory as to why most people have no interest in lucid dreaming? I also take issue with you being so quick to deny the title of guru! All it has to mean is someone who gives other people advice on ‘spiritual’ matters, which you certainly seem to be doing :P
Now, concerning the more interesting issue. It’s clear that there’s a philosophical difference between us regarding the nature of our existence. I tend to be about as scientific as it gets when it comes to these matters, where as you seem to be holding out hope that there’s more at play than the neuronal activity of our brains. First I have to say that my (neuroscientific) view does not have to belittle anything about our experience, just like understanding the molecular constituents of chocolate doesn’t stop us from enjoying it. It also doesn’t rule out the possibility of humans being capable of truly rare or even transcendental experiences (which I think that we are).
Top down processing is a recognized principle in both neuroscientific and psychological processes, and I don’t think most neuroscientists would deny that the phenomena emerging from the complete brain is greater than the sum of its parts.
I was glad to hear that you didn’t think that the ‘vipassana’ mindset was detrimental to lucid dreaming. Being ‘lucid’ in waking life is actually much more important to me than being lucid while dreaming, but I very much want to have both, and while I suspected that it was possible (if not probable), it was nice to receive some confirmation of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Back to the philosophical difference between us. I actually don’t think that ‘I’ exist, at least not in the way that it feels like I exist. I spend most of my time feeling like an autonomous individual with a coherent identity and a sense of free will, but (in my opinion) it’s nothing more than just that, a feeling, or an illusion, which is not to say that it may not be a beneficial illusion in some ways. The self that wakes up in the morning feels a lot like the one that went to bed the night before, but they’re actually different, the change is just usually too slow to notice. We don’t actually make our thoughts, memories and emotions, they make us. The brain just puts the self together like it does a kanizsa illusion.
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I was also under the opinion that Vipassana, at least in the way that I practice it, is used primarily to break this illusion, by looking at the ‘self’ so closely that it fades away, if only for a moment.
When you say that “everything around you is literally you” in a dream, I have a tough time relating to that. It’s of course true that my sense of self, and the rest of the dreamscape are both coming from the same place, the brain, but ‘I’m’ not my brain, and neither is the dreamscape, they’re both coming from the brain, and subject to its every whim, but not coterminous with it. And while it’s true that lucid dreamers often have the feeling of control over their dream world, what I think is actually happening is an intention arising within the sense of self, and if strong enough, that intention leads to the changing of the dream world into what the ‘self’ intended. But I don’t think that the ‘self’ can take any credit for this, because both the intention and then the resulting change (or perhaps not) in the dream world are still coming straight from a brain that isn’t the self. (I don’t claim to have the requisite dream control to change the landscape, I don’t, so I’m speculating here)
Now one might ask whether I think that we are “just observers”, I’m not exactly sure. What I think that ‘we’ are is consciousness, or awareness of a lot of different things, thoughts, feelings, emotions. And while intentions are real, and while these intentions often do line up nicely with thoughts and actions, all of these mental processes are coming out of a subjective darkness. You don’t know what you’re going to intend next, you can only consciously intend what you’re intending right now, whatever comes next is coming to me straight from a brain that isn’t ‘me’, and that I have no awareness of or control over. So perhaps I do think we’re observers, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t think that nothing is real, I may not choose what I’m happy about, or know what I’m going to be happy about next, but the happiness is still real.
I realize that there isn’t a coherent question in there, and that this isn’t meant to be a ‘everyone debate Sageous thread’, I guess I just wanted to lay all of that out there and see if you had an opinion on it, because like I said in my first post, I am interested in your opinion.
Hey, PresentMoment, you are still here; I thought you might have left the game...
Here are a couple of quick responses to your follow-up:
I think I already stated most of my theory about why most people have little interest in LD'ing when I said:
But let me add this clarification. Lucid dreaming is a near perfect "You had to be there" event to describe, and even the best descriptions tend to go unheard when they land on ears belonging to people who have no interest in things like dreams, consciousness, sense-of-self, or LD'ing, which combines all those "boring" and strange subjects. It's sort of like the problem a motorhead faces when trying to describe his recent success rebuilding a Weber 6-pack on the first try to a person with no interest in cars, much less the intricacies of vintage carburetors.Quote:
I learned quickly that most people aren’t terribly interested in dreams at all, and those who are hold very specific viewpoints of them which rarely dovetail with mine. ... More importantly, though, I hold dreaming as a very personal event, to the point where others -- even other accomplished LD’ers -- simply will not understand what I’m saying because they lack the context of my experience in specific dreams, and vise-versa (which is the main reason I don’t post DJ entries, BTW).
I actually wrote a couple of novels which are centered on my take of the potentials of lucid dreaming and dream sharing respectively, yet even my family members can't generate enough interest in dreams to pick one of them up. If dreams are not a part of your life's experience, then you are likely going to be very disinterested in LD'ing.
On rereading this bit, I think I still haven't answered your question; perhaps my "theory" is simply that dreams, because they are generally forgotten upon waking, are simply of no real interest to most people -- they don't even care much about their own dreams, except perhaps those few that they remember and to which they attach often very undreamy meaning. So, if people don't give a crap about their own dreams, why should they care about mine?
Regarding the rest of your post, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the philosophy bit because you are correct when you suggest that "this isn’t meant to be a ‘everyone debate Sageous thread’," but I would like to clarify one concept:
When I say “everything around you is literally you” in a dream, what I mean is quite simple and by no means meant to sound deep or mystical. The point here is that when you are in a dream, the entire universe around you has been manufactured by your own mind. Understand that when you are self-aware in a dream, and your interaction with that part of your mind with which you are rarely in direct contact will be much more productive (and easy); it's that simple.
However, if you enter a LD sure that there is a separate brain "out there" somewhere with which you can only associate through observation or requests, then you will likely miss much of what LD'ing has to offer, because for me LD'ing represents a unique conscious connection to your unconscious mind.
This I think may be more fundamental than the fundamentals: LD'ing is all about connections, and to deny that those connections are possible is to deny the potentials of both LD'ing and waking-life self-awareness. Wouldn't it be better, for instance, to assume you can fly, and ultimately build an airplane, than it would be to believe that "If man were meant to fly, he'd have wings," and never even imagine powered flight, much less build a plane?
I know you don't agree with me, but you also will not deter me from repeating that all of it -- brain activity, consciousness, unconsciousness, memories, the dreamscape, etc -- is a part of you. I think to consider consciousness as just some outside, accidental, powerless side-effect of your body's physical and psychological existence will do a lot to stymie the development of your LD'ing skills, much less future spiritual growth and experience in sleeping and waking life.
Maybe you can look at it from this fairly cynical perspective: even if I'm wrong, my LD'ing experience is richer for believing that my mind is my own, and that everything in my dream is a reflection of my Self ... that's how expectation works! To go into a dream assuming yourself an outsider in your own world is not a great idea, I think.
Also, should you finally learn to change dreamscapes at will (or more), I think you will be pleasantly surprised to discover that it actually is You doing the creative work, and that changes in a dream really are not the result of a distant "brain" processing a request from its lowly user. Yes, your brain is involved, but you are a part of the process, and not an observer. Like it or not, to say otherwise will belittle the experience, and hold you back from truly transcendental events.
Again, I really see no point in arguing this here, but I wanted to clarify that point, as I felt it was important.
So thanks for coming back to the thread, and, of course, for the kind words!
Haha no, I'm not done with the game quite yet.
Thanks again for replying, much appreciated. I'm entirely open to the possibility that certain frames of mind may be more conducive to lucid dreaming than others, and I will definitely give that some thought.
Hey Sageous,
I've been attempting WILDs when I get the chance, but I have a few questions.
1. I'm a nose-breather and have a pretty tight jaw, will this affect the body falling asleep? Or do I need to learn how to relax it?
2. I've been attempting to do some visualization to lose focus on my physical body, but I have trouble "not" focusing on the physical and I feel like it's holding me back. Do you have any techniques that work good or better?
3. I've been trying to induce WILDs through afternoon naps whenever I happen to nap, and it seems quite difficult, should these be attempted only when very tired? and do you have any other thoughts on nap WILDs?
ehh, I think that's it for now, thanks.
Here you go, EmptyBucket:
First, you might consider making WILD more of a scheduled or planned event, rather than a "when I get the chance" sort of thing. You'll likely see better results with good mental prep and timing.Quote:
I've been attempting WILDs when I get the chance, but I have a few questions.
Well, if you can fall asleep, you can WILD, and I'm guessing you can fall asleep. That said, yes, it wouldn't hurt to try relaxing your jaw as you settle in for your WILD attempt. The simple act of relaxing a part of you like your face is a useful step toward becoming fully relaxed.Quote:
1. I'm a nose-breather and have a pretty tight jaw, will this affect the body falling asleep? Or do I need to learn how to relax it?
You also can use your nose breathing as a meditative tool, by listening to your breath as it goes in and out, perhaps timing your mantra to those breaths.
Beyond using them as tools for your dive, try not to make either thing important in an of itself, as then they will become distractions rather than a help.
Nothing specific, but you might try focusing on something else, like a mantra or your intentions for the upcoming dream. If you expend a lot of effort trying not to do something, you risk inadvertently making that something the center of your focus rather than deleting it from your focus. In other words, by not focusing on your physical body, you're actually focusing on it. Best not to consider it at all, and move on to something else.Quote:
2. I've been attempting to do some visualization to lose focus on my physical body, but I have trouble "not" focusing on the physical and I feel like it's holding me back. Do you have any techniques that work good or better?
Though WILD's can certainly be achieved during a nap, I highly recommend that you make your initial attempts after several hours of your night's sleep, with a WBTB; they just seem to work better then, at least initially.Quote:
3. I've been trying to induce WILDs through afternoon naps whenever I happen to nap, and it seems quite difficult, should these be attempted only when very tired? and do you have any other thoughts on nap WILDs?
Later, when you've gained some experience and are comfortable with your WILD techniques, you might find doing them during afternoon naps easier and quite rewarding -- there is something special about laying down in the afternoon and stepping into another world Though being very tired isn't necessary, keep in mind that you need to be able to fall asleep, at least. ;)
Also, and apparently again, even when doing so while napping, it is helpful to plan your WILD attempt -- schedule it, look forward to it, do your mental prep in advance of it, specifically. If attempting WILD becomes an event for you, rather than a thing you try when you happen to be napping, you might find success more easily, simply because your mind, expectations, and intentions will all be in the right place.
I hope that helped, and good luck!
Thought I would post this in this "oldie but goodie" thread. This article has been posted in at least one other thread, but I thought that if anyone hadn't seen the article, it is an interesting read in that it seems to provide some scientific backing to the idea of awareness work helping with lucid dreaming which is right up the alley of this thread.
"...is activated when this lucid consciousness is attained. All of these regions are associated with self-reflective functions. This research into lucid dreaming gives the authors of the latest study insight into the neural basis of human consciousness."
LINK: Lucid dreamers help scientists locate the seat of meta-consciousness in the brain
^^ Cool! Thanks for sharing!
It's nice to know that LD'ing is good for something. I'm not surprised, of course, that LD'ing "lights up" the self-reflective bits of the brain ... though it is a mildly disturbing that all that self-awareness is happening in one bitty chunk of gray matter ;)
Also, it's real nice to know that LD'ing has become so accepted in science that they're using it as a tool for discovery. Very cool indeed!
Hi,
I am very new to all this having discovered lucid dreaming by accident after a random sleep paralysis episode (which scared the hell out of me ha)
But after researching the topic SP and its ties to lucid dreams I discovered and started using the WILD technique on nights soon after even though the vibrations and the feeling of "leaving the body" made me feel uneasy about what I was doing. I have since managed on two occasions to become lucid with minimal vibrations and going straight into the dream landscape.
I only discovered this two weeks ago and am able to achieve this every night if I wish, is that normal to progress that quick? Although my dream control needs work usually lose lucidity after 3-5 minutes will this improve too?
^^ That is fairly quick progress, I think, though there is no "normal" in LD'ing. And yes, with more experience you should find yourself able to stay lucid longer.
In the last few days I started replacing the nose plug with finger through palm for fear that the nose plug was giving me sinus headaches. Do you think it is counter-productive to change RCs?...or did I remember something about it being good to change up RCs?
^^ You can change RC's or you can keep doing the same ones over and over; it doesn't matter one wit, as long as the RC you're doing is meaningful to you. RC's only become counter-productive when you do them by rote and ignore their meaning, period. As far as I'm concerned, any talk about the good or bad in changing RC's is, well, just talk -- ignore it.
So yeah, if the nose plug RC is affecting your sinuses, stop doing it -- hell, stop doing it just because it gave you fears of sinus headaches (talk about excellent day residue for nightmares! ;)).
^^ Thank you Sageous! Speaking of day residue, I am finding more and more oddities that trigger me to do reality checks throughout the day where I definitely question reality more sincerely.
Hi Sageous,
I'm making my way through this thread, and it's very useful since I find here a deeper discussion of what you mean in the WILD sessions about awareness. Also, the sessions don't speak about memory that I recall. I think I was doing RRCs wrong in fact, I'm not sure: in addition to seeing the immediate surroundings, I imagined "lines of influence" emanating out from me to the entire world, and the reverse, from the entire world in to me. Is that too much a "I'm at the center of the universe" mindset?
Also, I've been working on memory, but basically only prospective memory (for MILD, associating dream situations with remembering to recognize I'm dreaming). Is there a use for memory in attaining lucidity other than remembering your have a physical body asleep in bed somewhere as you write here? Just how does the memory (and it seems you're mostly talking about retrospective memory...yes/no?) come in to the lucidity, what are you trying to remember in order to get lucid and have a high quality experience?
Actually, I'm just talking about memory, period.
A widespread misunderstanding in the world of lucid dreaming is that our reasoning skills and consciousness are impaired in a dream. That is not true: we are fully capable of reason, of logic, of judgment, and our consciousness (not, mind you, our self-awareness) are all working just fine in dreams, be they lucid or not. In other words, we think about as well in dreams as we do in waking life.
What is missing is memory, which is effectively turned off during dreams. So a dreamer's real problem isn't that her brain is too addled to understand that she can't really play ping-pong on the moon, it's that she has no available memory to tap that will tell her this action is absurd. If she were inclined to be lucid, she might be able to turn her memory back on and say, "hey, you can't play ping-pong on the moon; I must be dreaming!" and then the adventure begins.
So, memory is fundamental to LD'ing because it allows a dreamer to strengthen his place in the dream, to complete his sense of self. This to me is far more important than any technique; try not to think of it as such. Instead, think of memory as a key driver of your self-awareness, or perhaps an anchor to your identity -- as long as it's turned on.
I hope that made sense; if not, ask again...this one's important.
I couldn't have put it better myself! You were absolutely building too much into your RRC's I think. Try to avoid creating personal ley lines, FryingMan, and the intellectual and geometric baggage that comes with them. The RRC is simply meant to help you understand that you are a part of your immediate reality, that you influence it and that it influences you; take a firm understanding of this interaction into a dream, where everything is you, and you'll be better prepared to recognize and navigate your dreamworld. No more, no less. Add too much thinking and/or imagery to a RRC, and it not only becomes a burden to do, but its usefulness in a dream dwindles.Quote:
I think I was doing RRCs wrong in fact, I'm not sure: in addition to seeing the immediate surroundings, I imagined "lines of influence" emanating out from me to the entire world, and the reverse, from the entire world in to me. Is that too much a "I'm at the center of the universe" mindset?
It does make sense. But just how does one "turn on memory in a dream?" Just by "turning on memory" in waking life? And is the kind of memory you're talking about "life memory" (what I did earlier today, before, etc.), not just "thing memory" (the guy who can remember hundreds of cards in order)? So the steps to turning it on are....? Just spending time thinking about stuff in the past? Is working on dream recall considered part of "turning memory on?".
I'm just wondering what I should be doing more than dream recall and prospective memory exercises.
I understand your not wanting to dictate specifics, but it's really helpful to see some examples of particular things to do as a starting place. Thanks!
Question about self-awareness and how it enhances/affects LDs. Maybe this is a case of "you just have to be there" (like trying to describe what lucid dreams feel like to those who haven't experienced them yet). Memory I understand, that's helpful for goals, things to do, attaining lucidity (remembering you can't play ping pong on the moon), and it's a part of self-awareness. But self-awareness again helps how? If in WL I realize I affect all around me, and all around me affects me, how does that help / what does that do in a LD? As I realize I'm dreaming, I see that all around me "is me" as you noted earlier in the thread. My surroundings do not affect me, I am I guess "in myself", there is nothing external to me in the LD experience, the LD in fact "is me." Is that what you mean? OK, so where does one go with that? Or is that the goal itself? By realizing it is not WL and that there is no "all around me to affect me," does that lead to the conclusion that anything I can think of I can do (fly/teleport/summon flying elephants)? That I have utter confidence because there are no "external powers" that can affect/harm me? Or something else?
While I'm on a roll with questions about terms, I may as well get the rest of them out there: just what are "expectation" and "intention?" How are they different? How does one cultivate them (examples of using them?) ? How are we to use them to attain lucidity and have a maximally fulfilling LD experience (length, quality).
I see the benefit in incubation successes: I get to dream about what I want to, and (still working on this) it struck me that incubation can help with attaining lucidity by incubating dream scenarios that for me have a high likelihood of attaining lucidity. Is that what expectation and intention are for, or are there other benefits?
thanks a zillion!
One thought I've had churning around for a while: I suppose with ultimate self-awareness (if it's even possible?), the dream would just go away? Like how you say you strip the dream down to a "void" and try to build your tripod? Sort of like how Neo sees the matrix as glowing green stuff rather than a WL simulation. I think for now I'd much rather spend some years with awesome lucid adventure dreams (experiencing "the steak" [albeit lucidly], ala Cypher; Agent Smith and Cypher - YouTube), and then worry about building my void-tripod later :).
FryingMan:
I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to defer an answer to your question about self-awareness to what I wrote in the earlier sections of this thread -- I think my descriptions then were pretty thorough, more thought-out than they can be right now, and, if you also read some of my responses to earlier questions about it, should effectively answer your question better than I can in 800 words here. I hope you don't mind.
The same goes for expectation/intention, I'm afraid, save that you may have noticed by now that I usually list the two together because for me they are basically the same things, with expectation being thing you build over time, and intention being the thing you "set" immediately before sleep (a la MILD), but both influencing your dreaming mind in a similar fashion.
Now to memory, which I also suggest you look at in the beginning of the thread, but here are a couple more thoughts:
I guess it would be like "turning it on" in waking life, but not in the way you're thinking, I think. When I say that memory is shut off in a dream, I mean that in a literal, physiological sense: the portions of your brain used to process and access all short-term memory and most long-term memory are by nature not available during a dream. Indeed, I'm pretty sure that even the long-term memory bits you experience in a dream are not so much memories but information your dreaming mind pulled up to complete schemata... the difference is in context, for if those long-term bits were actual memories, you would know, for instance, that the person standing there has been dead for 20 years.
So how to "turn it on?" Honestly, I'm still working on that. To date, activating memory has come in two ways for me: either by holding onto it through WILD, or using my self-awareness to "demand" its presence (after all, you can't be fully self-aware without having memory in place to confirm your identity and actual current location in waking and dreaming reality). There may be tricks, techniques, or drugs (ie, gallantamine, vitamin b6) that could help, but ultimately the absence of memory is a difficult hurdle for LD'ing, a hurdle held high by our own physical nature (in other words, it's supposed to be turned off, as dictated by millions of years of evolution).
Currently for me, a powerful sense of Self (self-awareness) in the dream is enough to turn memory on a little bit at least, completely on occasion... after all, if I'm aware of a true "Me" in a dream, with a waking-life perspective, I am not going to feel complete or even correct until that awareness includes memory (this BTW is why I believe it's important to remember your sleeping body in its bed during a dream) Also, the prospective memory exercises in MILD are very helpful, and using a mantra like "Remember" during WILD can help as well.
Yes, I suppose it is like "life memory," which is why I suggest remembering what you were recently doing in the RRC. No, it is definitely not "thing" memory -- that might actually work against you in the dream, because remembering "things" might pile up unnecessary details and images in a dream that have nothing to do with your identity (self-awareness) and everything to do with the bucket of information from which your dreaming mind draws to create schemata.Quote:
And is the kind of memory you're talking about "life memory" (what I did earlier today, before, etc.), not just "thing memory" (the guy who can remember hundreds of cards in order)? So the steps to turning it on are....? Just spending time thinking about stuff in the past? Is working on dream recall considered part of "turning memory on?".
I guess the memory I'm talking about here is in a sense holistic memory: It's not so much an information stream or database, but an active collection of experience that identifies "You," specifically, and must be present to complete an accurate image of your self in a dream (just as it does in waking life).
I think I already discussed what I could here of the steps for turning on memory (or lack thereof), but yeah, just spending time actively thinking about stuff in your past (preferably important stuff that had something directly to do with you) might be helpful. Indeed, if you could make it a habit, in the RC/RRC vein, you might bring that interest in remembering into a dream with you.
Though it is important in its own right, dream recall is not considered (by me, at least) part of turning memory on. It's a different process altogether, whose function is based on the fact that memory is already turned on when you're recalling dreams, so I don't think even excellent dream recall would help much in switching on memory during the dream.
It's not a case of not wanting to dictate specifics, I think. It's more a case of a genuine dearth in specifics at all. LD'ing, ultimately, is a very personal event, and not only examples, but perspectives on examples are things that must be generated by individuals as they learn. Because of this, I'm real bad at examples in a forum format where I can't spend thousands of words putting together an image that actually makes sense to someone other than me.Quote:
I understand your not wanting to dictate specifics, but it's really helpful to see some examples of particular things to do as a starting place. Thanks!
Okay, one note about self-awareness:
Yes, "ultimate," or pure self-awareness could change the very nature of a dream, to the point where the stuff of dreams becomes insignificant. Keep in mind, though, that this purity is ascension-level transcendental stuff, and will not replace your "normal" LD's in any permanent way (even if you find, ultimately, that you want it too), and you would always have the ability to keep to the dream, so you needn't worry about having your lucid adventures interfered with by "too much" self-awareness. I still enjoy the fun stuff very much, BTW!Quote:
One thought I've had churning around for a while: I suppose with ultimate self-awareness (if it's even possible?), the dream would just go away? Like how you say you strip the dream down to a "void" and try to build your tripod? Sort of like how Neo sees the matrix as glowing green stuff rather than a WL simulation. I think for now I'd much rather spend some years with awesome lucid adventure dreams (experiencing "the steak" [albeit lucidly], ala Cypher; Agent Smith and Cypher - YouTube), and then worry about building my void-tripod later .
I hope all that helped, and thanks for bearing with me on the self-awareness and expectation/intention dodges.
OK, my freak out is over. I just need to slow down and read more carefully. I have absolutely no problem with undergoing a multi-year project for high quality, but the key thing is that I didn't want to have to wait multiple years before having any middle-lucidity fun along the way with good frequency. Lots of good stuff in this thread, I recommend going through it with browser searching for "aware" and "memory" and you'll find all the nuggets of goodness in here!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
^^ Given your level of intensity and interest, FryingMan, I have a sneaking suspicion that you will not be waiting multitple years for your mid-level LD'ing skills to develop. Just don't expect it to all happen tomorrow with the wave of some magic Technique Wand! :)
^^ (Waves wand chanting...) "Nunc magis animi!"
Addendum Re: Expectation/intention
FryingMan Just asked me the following question about expectation/intention in a PM, but I think it was one worth sharing here:
My bad. Important as they are in general, expectation and intention have minimal (conscious) importance to me, so I tend to list them as givens and assume, because they are often correctly discussed, that they are givens among readers. I had also assumed that they were both pretty much self-defining-terms. All that was clearly a mistake on my part.Quote:
I'm still trying to figure out though the difference between expectation and intention (and i looked through all 10 pages of the fundamentals thread and didn't find a single definition :P). I guess it doesn't matter though: one is longer-term and more general, and one is more immediate and specific?
Another mistake, though I won't stop doing it, might be putting them together around a slash mark. Though they are to me the same thing, because they seem to trigger the same reaction in the dreaming mind, they also are, operatively, polar opposites: Expectations are accumulated unconsciously over the course of days, weeks, even years, while intentions are consciously set in an immediate, thought-out, front-burner manner. Expectations are also metaphoric or emotional in nature, and intentions tend to be solid, often abstract words. And yet, they are both expressed in dreams in the exact same manner: as reflections of your desires, fears, and intellectual priorities, be they unconscious (expectations) or stated (intentions).
What are they, exactly? Aside from being self-defining, think of them as fuses that ignite unconscious action.
Not too exact, huh? Okay, think of them this way:
Expectations are like bits of similar data, based on what's important to you in waking life, and those bits are accumulated over waking-life time into a packet of data powerful enough to program the schemata of your dreams.
For example, you spend hours each day thinking about LD's, imagining things you'll do, what it will be like; and, come dreamtime, your dreaming mind reflects all that expectation by rewarding you with a dream that incorporates the things you've been imagining, thus opening the door to a LD. Conversely, you might spend all your time sure you'll never be able to LD, and, sure enough, your dreaming mind closes the door on any attempt you make.
Intentions are a consciously formed packet of data infused into the unconscious by you at an opportune time just before dreams. This infusion, when successful, can be powerful enough to program your dream schemata, or trigger your waking-life mind to respond to suggestions during the dream or sleep cycle.
For example, you can set intentions to dream about your dog, effecting schema, perhaps to "know" this is a dream during the dream, or to wake up at a specific time for a WILD attempt. If set correctly, there will be your dog, you'll know it's a dream, or perhaps you'll wake up at just the right time, ready for WBTB and WILD.
I hope that made sense, and shame on me for not talking about them more.
Pondering the fundamentals for a few days now. Came up with a new mantra to try: "remember....I am the dream...". Is that on target? Trying to capture the essence of memory and self-awareness.
Some more thoughts: I've been thinking previously for a while that I should call for my dream guide to teach me control. But after this discussion I'm thinking: why call on a "dream guide?" The dream is me, it is the manifestation of my mind, relying on some character external to me (even though the DG really is me?) in order to teach me to do things in dreams may put me at a disadvantage, thinking that I do not have total control of events. I don't need a DG, I'm the DG, since I am the dream.
Then my imagination started having fun thinking of all sorts of things: I don't have to fly to the moon, I can will the moon to me and just jump on and walk around. I don't have to summon a lighsaber to play with, I can ignite lightsabers myself out of each of my fingers, and make them all different colors, and variable length (and infinite power), up to infinity (so I could chop the moon in half from the earth if I wished it). Entire armies can't stand against me since I just extend the beams the proper distance and wave my hands back and forth and they're all decimated :). Heat vision, cold vision, tornado breath (yeah some superman stuff in there). I'm on my walk, imagining tossing houses in to space with just a thought. No trouble bringing down a mountain, just have a giant Monty Python foot come down and pulverise it :). Opening a portal to wherever I want to go is as simple as grabbing a hold of "space" with my hands and pulling them apart to open the "door" to wherever I want to go.
By doing this I'm hoping to build expectation and confidence that I can do whatever I want, since I am the dream, the dream is me. Sound like a good way to go about it?
Though it's only on target if it does capture for you the essence of memory and self-awareness, it is a good mantra -- simple, rhythmic, and meaningful.
That is an excellent point, and I agree completely... unless of course actual DG's are from outside of you!! ;) Also, be careful where you say this on the forum, because you will get an earful!Quote:
Some more thoughts: I've been thinking previously for a while that I should call for my dream guide to teach me control. But after this discussion I'm thinking: why call on a "dream guide?" The dream is me, it is the manifestation of my mind, relying on some character external to me (even though the DG really is me?) in order to teach me to do things in dreams may put me at a disadvantage, thinking that I do not have total control of events. I don't need a DG, I'm the DG, since I am the dream.
Yes, that sounds like an excellent way to go about it; definite fodder for giving your dreaming mind excellent expectations from which to build your adventures.Quote:
Then my imagination started having fun thinking of all sorts of things: I don't have to fly to the moon, I can will the moon to me and just jump on and walk around. I don't have to summon a lighsaber to play with, I can ignite lightsabers myself out of each of my fingers, and make them all different colors, and variable length (and infinite power), up to infinity (so I could chop the moon in half from the earth if I wished it). Entire armies can't stand against me since I just extend the beams the proper distance and wave my hands back and forth and they're all decimated :). Heat vision, cold vision, tornado breath (yeah some superman stuff in there). I'm on my walk, imagining tossing houses in to space with just a thought. No trouble bringing down a mountain, just have a giant Monty Python foot come down and pulverise it :). Opening a portal to wherever I want to go is as simple as grabbing a hold of "space" with my hands and pulling them apart to open the "door" to wherever I want to go.
By doing this I'm hoping to build expectation and confidence that I can do whatever I want, since I am the dream, the dream is me. Sound like a good way to go about it?
Nice assemblage of thoughts, FryingMan; I think that they show that your mind is definitely in the right place!
Hey Sageous,
Lately I've been kind of looking at the process of falling asleep and seeing if there is any way to get to sleep faster and overcome insomnia, you know what I mean, those nights where you can't get to sleep and you don't feel very tired, but would like to get to sleep.
There are also other occasions where I feel tired physically, but my mind is firing thoughts and whatnot.
Recently I've been experimenting with saying very repetitive things or to compliment MILD I'll repeat a mantra, when I really want to get to sleep I will say it very meaningless and repetitive so that the "mantra" kind of registers as just noise and eventually I fall asleep.
I also never make sleep a goal to shoot for, and remember that you must fall into it, you can't actively make yourself sleep <- I found this mindset helps quite a bit and may be resourceful to others
But I was wondering if you may have any tips/ideas/suggestions for overcoming not being able to fall asleep/insomnia?
^^ Yeah, being both a light sleeper and a person who seems to have all his thoughts while lying in bed, I've been there too, EmptyBucket, many times. The unspoken fundamental of successful LD'ing is sleep, and it can be frustrating when you can't do the "simplest" part of the process.
You're already doing two of the things I would have suggested, and never shooting for sleep as a goal is without a doubt my primary suggestion. As soon as you start thinking about sleep, you start a long night of being wide awake. Also, though it doesn't work well for me, repeating a mantra is a good idea as well; however, I would suggest making the mantra meaningful, and relating to dreams and not sleep. It'll still register as noise after an hour or more of repetition (and have the same drowsy effect as a meaningless mantra, we hope), but when you do finally fall asleep, it may have helped put your mind in the right place for your dreams.
Here are some other things I've found helpful (in descending order of helpfulness):
1. Never, ever, get angry or anxious that you cannot sleep, or concern yourself with how you'll be in the morning or that you're missing out on all those dreams; that only makes it worse. The real cure for occasional insomnia is simply not giving a crap about it.
2. Instead of thinking you need to sleep, think rather that your body has given you a few hours of quiet quality time. Try to use that time to think about important things that might need a few hours of thought, like your long-term dream goals/fantasies, or maybe about some "big stuff" from waking life, like long-term projects or goals, family plans, maybe that book you always meant to write (DO NOT think about waking-life minutia, like what you're going to do tomorrow, or problems/fights you had yesterday -- keep it general and "large," or you will never fall asleep!). Do this even if it means you'll be up all night thinking about this stuff -- go into it willing to be tired tomorrow.
I've repeatedly found that as soon as I abandoned interest in sleep and start working on long-term stuff (usually my major dreaming goals), drowsiness ensues. And even if it didn't ensue, I would certainly fall asleep eventually, and -- though tired in the morning, and having no dreams to speak of -- would feel like I had a good, productive night. This might only work for me, as a reflection of my mind's disinterest in working on the important stuff (I can hear my brain saying, "No, we're not wired to think about things, dummy, we're going to sleep!"), but I think it might be worth a shot, and it might make your time waiting for sleep well spent.Do something else. Read a book.
3. Get up: watch TV, do some (quiet) chores, or perhaps take a walk outside and enjoy the quiet. Just do something that is not sleeping, to give your mind and body something to do to settle down, reset itself, and get interested in sleep. And DON'T DO something that ties into the stuff that was racing your mind in the first place.
Also, forget about dream work for the night, as thinking that you're losing dream time will only compound the insomnia. Do this even if it's morning and you were attempting a WILD. Funny thing: some of the best LD's I've had have come after I gave up on getting to sleep and finishing a WILD.
4. If it's racing thoughts that are keeping you up, let them drive right by: create an image in your mind that encourages thoughts to wander right by, existing but unheeded. Envision perhaps a small stream trickling past you in the dark, and imagine the thoughts as so many ripples in that stream. Let them exist, let them make their noise, but change that noise from a distraction to a pleasant little burble of passing water. NEVER try to force thoughts out of your head, because that only tightens their grip on your psyche.
5. Do the 61 points relaxation technique mentioned in EWOLD. It does work!
6. It may be trite, but that counting down from 100 task works quite well, especially if you add a visualization: instead of just counting, imagine each number written in the sand of a beach, and as you say it a gentle wave of ocean washes it away, making a clean space for the next number (this is not my idea, BTW, but I can't remember where I got it).
7. Read a boring book (as opposed to reading something you want to read, as in #2), like a textbook or a philosophy book. Shakespeare works pretty well for me too, oddly.
8. Roll over. Move your body into a position that is not normal for your sleeping (i.e., if you normally sleep on your right side, switch to your left). This sounds silly, but the novelty helps.
9. Pop a couple of melatonin tablets. I think 1 to 3 mg's is the norm, though I've had many a 10 mg night.
10. Have a glass of warm milk or hot cocoa.
That's what I have; I hope it was some help!
Wow, what a great response,
I've had the feeling of "Wow I'm missing out on potential lucids", and it is a frustrating one, I love the way you described the ripple of thoughts because when my head is full of thoughts at the end of a long day, I sometimes think of an image and then other thoughts form an image from the previous image and it's so automatic, like I just let it happen, it feels like I'm "emptying" my thoughts.
Sometimes I've been so awake I think that I should just get up and do homework, work on something.
Thanks again, I hope the other dreamers read this as I'm sure many find sleep as a goal, get frustrated, etc.
Hi Sageous, I wanted to get your thoughts. Perhaps this specific angle could be something that you or someone has already talked about in the forums. I believe you have spoken of WBTB as being helpful in firing up parts of the brain useful to lucid dreaming, but I believe you have also mentioned not firing up all parts of the brain lest you convince your brain that your night of sleep is over and end up switching off REM. I am wondering if specific awareness work might be useful as the primary focus during all WBTB's if you are going for DILDs. I was just reading an article and it reminded me of a previous article we had discussed...both are referenced below.
2012 article I just read where the only real correlation is a study of which areas of the brain are activated while closely reading text literary versus pleasure reading: This is your brain on Jane Austen, and researchers at Stanford are taking notes
bottom line: paying close attention to literary texts "requires the coordination of multiple complex cognitive functions" as shown by MRI scans of the brain during such reading as opposed to pleasure reading that showed blood flow in different parts of the brain.
Original article we discussed briefly: Lucid dreamers help scientists locate the seat of meta-consciousness in the brain
"In a lucid state, however, the activity in certain areas of the cerebral cortex increases markedly within seconds. The involved areas of the cerebral cortex are the right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, to which commonly the function of self-assessment is attributed, and the frontopolar regions, which are responsible for evaluating our own thoughts and feelings. The precuneus is also especially active, a part of the brain that has long been linked with self-perception.”
Perhaps we could use targeted activities focused on self awareness during WBTB to maximize our level of lucidity while being careful to not fire up the wrong parts of the brain. Edit: I am recalling something about not getting too intellectual with awareness work...perhaps something I should heed here as well.
I think I already advocate that; don't I? ;)
Seriously, though: yes, WBTB ought definitely to be practiced with a focus on targeted self-awareness. The trouble is, what to target?
I have a brother who is a professor of neurobiology at a major university whose primary lot in life is locating what parts of the brain are fired by what activity and why. He's made a lot of progress, but a funny thing has developed as we discussed his work over the years: though he can tell you all about examples like reading Jane Austen, and might even try defending that meta-consciousness experiment Zoth found for us last year, he seems to have changed his position regarding consciousness and memory (aka, the stuff of dreams). Yes, we might be able to see a few basal brain bits fire during dreams, but it seems that the entire brain is accessed for the higher stuff like self-awareness, and in (as yet) no discernible pattern. [Keep in mind that self-perception and self-awareness are two very different things -- at least in my opinion.]
So, if we could stimulate the frontopolar regions (whatever they are), successfully firing places, for instance, that have lit up when LD'ers were tested, we still might not have triggered or amplified our self-awareness or memory... Indeed, we might have made a real mess of things, because it may be that it's our self-awareness triggering those regions, and not the other way around: lighting them first, before self-awareness has had input, might cause some confusion, I think.
What I get from all this is that there may be no specific part of your brain you can target while massaging as complex a part of your mind as self-awareness, so the best you can do is go after the more global things, like keeping your brain in as close a state to sleep as you can get it, so that the target-able centers like those that oversee sleep can continue their processes... in a sense, you are literally avoiding any stimulus to the system.
One way to keep your brain centered on sleep during WBTB is by not taxing it with things like using your computer or, perhaps, reading and enjoying Jane Austen. Since we don't know which centers "drive" self-awareness yet, or indeed if there are any, the best we can do is maintain it ourselves without disturbing the parts of the brain we can effect. Did I just say that?
In other words, keep your brain calm and dreamy during WBTB, and trust your self-awareness to kick in when needed; nobody's going to do it for you, possibly ever. Once again the fundamentals eclipse science and shortcuts?
Perhaps! The last thing you want to do is lie there in the dark intention set, dream-plans in place, maybe a little excited about it all, only to spend the next hour or two thinking about which bits of your brain are lighting up, or if you took the right pills or did the right mental exercises to have them lit for you. That may be one too many layers of complexity over a process that ought to be as clean as possible.Quote:
I am recalling something about not getting too intellectual with awareness work...perhaps something I should heed here as well.
That was a good question, though, and certainly one whose answer I hope to one day be proven wrong about.
I remember when I was younger I use to get SP(didn't know what it was then) whenever I slept a regular night's sleep during the day and was forced to go to sleep that same night. Weird thing is when I would wake up some days in the morning I'd awaken in SP and my neck would be stiff and I was scared shitless my this.
I have a question about Self Awareness. Is it knowing or at least having a sense of where everything is? Like for example right now I'm typing this on my laptop and I can hear the chatter of voices in the next room and the clatter of men working on my neighbors house, while also hearing the voice in my head narrate this text. Is that being self aware or should I reach for something more?
^^ You should reach for something more, I think.
The awareness you describe is fine, but it does not include "you" in the exercise. Self-awareness is the aknowledgement of your interaction with your local reality -- that you have an effect on it, and it on you. Scanning for all those details won't help increase your self-awareness if you fail to include your self in the formula.
In other words, self-awareness is not about collecting all the information in the room (or in your head, for that matter) as much as it is grasping the significance of of your interaction with that information.
Is this the same concept as "I" in Ego? I mean how do I keep track of myself if I am also suppose to be aware of my surrounding? Or do mantras come in part of the plan here?
No. If you are referring to the "I" in ego as that thing which, say, in Zen Buddhism you wish to eliminate, then no. Far from erasing the presence of "you" in your immediate reality, here you are making a point of noting your inclusion in reality, your impact on it, and its on you. If you mean "ego" in the Freudian sense, then no. And, of course, if you mean "ego" in its mode as oft-used stand-in for selfishness and self-aggrandizement, then absolutely no. The various definitions of ego tend to complicate self-awareness, not define it. [As a quick aside, I should also mention that self-awareness is the polar opposite of selfishness or narcissism, whose conditions are partially defined by their complete lack of self-awareness.]
I suggest, Mr. Blonde, that you be careful about trying to over-define or too deeply examine what I'm saying here, as that can lead to possibly unhelpful intellectual traps. To quote my OP here: Self-awareness is nothing more -- or less -- than being aware that you are here, that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you. It really is that simple. Self-awareness, when it comes down to it, is a fairly simple concept. It may take time and a bit of effort to call up and maintain its presence, but there is no need to complicate it with more terms, philosophizing, or deeper explanations.
Plus, even if this definition of self-awareness is too simplistic for a philosophic or intellectual discussion, it is more than enough to portray its significance in lucid dreaming. Why? Because if you can carry this attitude, this sense of participation in your immediate reality, into your dream, then during that dream -- where your immediate reality is nothing but you -- lucidity will be a given.
Sadly, if you cannot keep track of yourself while you pass through your surroundings, then I fear you will have a real problem with self-awareness -- and a lot of other things, for that matter (ie, avoiding obstacles, greeting friends, picking the best route to your goals). Also, nobody said you're "supposed" to do anything; if you don't feel like doing full-on ADA, then don't.Quote:
I mean how do I keep track of myself if I am also suppose to be aware of my surrounding?
No. Mantras are not necessary for gathering or maintaining self-awareness.Quote:
Or do mantras come in part of the plan here?
Amazing, Sageous, amazing!! What can I say, thank you! I have read a lot of your threads and now fully aware of the concept and how it works(not just self-awareness, but also everything you said). And your last answer for fogelbise really topped it off. I was very worried on how the concept actually works in the brain, even if not really known how, the information that is available is enough to convince me. But I get worried about every detail(these 4 months where really exosting, but worthit to understand LDing), and I am worried what is self-perception? I am pretty sure I'm doing self-awareness correctly, but this haunts me:p. Again, thank you very much for all you have given^^. You have been a great assistance to me, and as a matter of fact, Zoth too(he has given me a lot of guidance that lead me to my current knowledge and understanding of LDing), and I feel you are good friends by your posts^^. Sorry the post is so long, but it doesn't even come close to express my gratitude to all you have done to help US ALL!! THANK YOU!!
Thank you for the kind words, LouaiB, I'm glad someone is still reading this stuff, and maybe getting something from it!
Now, I think there was a question in there somewhere, wasn't there:
This is just my opinion, but for lucid dreaming, self-perception does not matter.
Self-perception is the construction of your personality from your point of view, literally how you see yourself based on your own judgment of your actions, reactions to others, and thoughts. Self-perception is an intellectual product that helps you to better understand the things you do and say, prepare yourself for your own social behavior, and maybe keep you from doing or saying unhelpful things. This is all important in its context, but that context is not lucid dreaming.
Self-perception is very different from self-awareness. Though strong self-awareness would certainly make self-perception easier to do, self-awareness is driven more by your observation or acknowledgment of your interaction with reality, your presence in it, and at its core it is an action that requires very little creative thought, only an open mind. Conversely, strong self-perception might hinder self-awareness, because it is an act of definition rather than observation or wonder; that definition could serve to inadvertently close your mind, blocking it from the truth of your interaction with reality by attaching rationale to explain it, or your behavior in it.
Self-perception is an opinion, a picture, that you draw of yourself, based on your behaviors, interests, and thoughts; self-perception is very much an invention, and can be done without even considering your interaction with your local reality. Indeed, you can have excellent self-perception without ever realizing that you are an individual interacting with reality, and it with you. By the same token, since it is an invention, your self-perception could be very wrong, and narcissistically based; indeed your self-perception can be a complete construct, based on nothing real, but rather on, say narcissistic fantasies.
tl;dr: Self-awareness = your awareness that you exist, and that that matters; self-perception = your personal definition of your own personality, based (hopefully but not necessarily) on your own interpretations of past actions or thoughts, and your expected behaviors.
Thank you for your generous post and your precious time^^! I am a DILDer, but I do WILD, and am a little good. I get the vibrations, a little HI, and those annoying "jolts" while fully conscious doin WILD( you know, when you fall asleep and suddenly dream of slipping or tripping, jolts you out of your bed(a real shocker, happened to me 3 times in my last session)).
Sageous,
Thanks for your answer on the WILD Q&A thread. I had one more question and thought this thread would be more appropriate.
I could be wrong, but is this basically how the ‘fundamentals’ help in lucid dreaming?:
The 'dream state' is a state of awareness that is not easily recognized, and also a place where your mind accepts things that are inconsistent with reality due to memory of reality being mostly 'switched off'. By practicing self-awareness and memory (the fundamentals) you will develop the essential mental tools for overcoming these two main 'problems' of the dream state, helping you to easily recognize this state of awareness in a general sense, regardless of any 'technique' you might choose (e.g. DEILD, MILD), whilst also being of major benefit in any technique you do choose.
Thanks again and happy new year!
^^ You got it, Eamo; that was an excellent summary!
I have one more question.
Does ADA reduce the effect of ADSA(RRC)? I read the whole thread of ADA right or wrong for lucidity.
It is that self-awareness, memory and environmental awareness(ADA) can be of benefit together, but still there is a hindering of some sort. So, better if I practice ADSA and memory with some environmental awareness with my RC?
Thank you for all the help you have offered:D
Is "ADSA" a a new acronym, or did I miss a memo? Please don't tell me I used it first, because I don't remember even discussing it! Still, if it stands for ADA with Self-Awareness, then it is an interesting term. However, it would still not equal a RRC, so if someone said practicing ADA with self-awareness is an RRC, they were not correct -- even if it was me! If you could let me know where you found this term, I'd appreciate it -- just so I can throw up a quick clarifying post about the difference (pretty much copying the following).
ADA, as I understand it, is a technique involving the sensate absorption of as many details in your physical environment as you can, as often as you can, with a mind to simply focus on them all, period. I could be a little off on that, but even if a little off, that activity runs anathema to RRC's, which involve taking a moment to sincerely wonder about your interaction with your local reality, and to do so in a fairly nebulous, or global way. In other words, specific physical details do not matter in RRC's; only general memories, actions, and intentions for action, along with your consideration about the effects of all that. This seems very much the opposite of ADA, so I'm not sure it is right to combine the two into one term.
That said, practicing ADA while also doing RRC's, only not at the same time, seems a fine thing to do. It never hurts to hone your senses and beef up your perception, and if you can combine the results of ADA (a strong sense of your physical surroundings, and an understanding that they need to be considered) with a strong sense of self (the result of RRC's, perhaps, plus any number of other activities or introspections), then LD'ing will be that much easier.
I firmly believe, and I think that thread finally concluded, that ADA on its own is not enough for lucidity. To be lucid you must nurture your mind as well as your senses. No matter how strong your sense of physical awareness is, you will not be lucid in dreams without a strong sense of self. You must also develop a strong sense of self-awareness, memory skills, and expectation/intentions (aka: the fundamentals!) to prepare your waking-life self-awareness to join you in a dream.
So yes, ADA is fine for your senses, and would certainly be an aid to becoming lucid. But it must be done in addition to whatever you're doing to develop your self-awareness, and certainly not at the same time, as the two are not compatible. In other words, an RRC is not ADA with self-awareness, by any measure -- so "ADASA" is an incorrect term, in my opinion. Perhaps ADASA could be an overall term used by someone who is practicing ADA while also doing some sort of self-awareness development (like RRC's), but I do not think that is what you meant.
Here's a more specific answer to your actual question:
Yes, if done at the same time as a (correctly done) RRC, ADA would certainly reduce the effect of that RRC, if not negating it altogether. By the same token, the RRC would also reduce the the effect of ADA. So,the term ADASA is not the same as RRC -- .
Yes, there would be a hindering of some sort, in that ADA elevates the importance of your immediate physical environment, while correctly done RRC's pretty much ignore it. Though ultimately strong skills in both activities would help lucidity (and you in general), practicing ADA and RRC's at the same time simply will not work, as the two are intellectually incompatible.
No, it is not better if you practice ADASA (assuming it is simply a renaming of RRC's) with some environmental awareness with your RC. Indeed, you shouldn't even be doing RRC's at the same time as RC's, because they sort of negate each other as well! These -- ADA, RRC's, and RC's -- are all standalone techniques, each meant to nurture a different aspect of your consciousness... trying to combine them all would be confusing, and assuming they are all the same thing is both incorrect and will prevent you from appreciating their intended results.
I hope this made sense. If it didn't please ask again, because this is important.
Thnx^^
What I meant by ADSA is honing your self-awareness to the level that it is "on" all the day, without environmental awareness, so it is RRC all day long. I read it in the thread "ADA, right or wrong for lucidity" in the initial post. So, honing the skill of self-awareness till it reaches all day self-aware, then it is like doing RRC all day long, so you can't do RC or ADA at all, or they will hinder each other, right?
I am currently doing RRC with RC, but I think I will reduce my RC only to involve noticing dreamlikeness, or is it better complietly without RC?
Also, MILD(the prospective memory training and intention parts), with the fundamentals and WILD, DEILD would be a great combination?
Sorry for the misunderstanding, my mistake:oops:
Okay, that's definitely different. If you are focusing on self-awareness all day, then you're in a sense not doing ADA (as it is known on these forums, anyway) at all. I'm pretty sure that doing an RRC all day is likely physically and logically impossible, or at least would make the person attempting it very, very tired. I have a feeling that just maintaining a constant sense of self-awareness all day (without the RRC exercise) is just short of impossible for most of us -- though, yes, if you were fully self-aware all day, LD'ing (and a lot of other things) would be a snap.
Again, no it is not. An RRC is a specific, short-term exercise to remind you to be self-aware, or at least to remind you to be aware of your own significance in your immediate environment. If you should achieve a state of being self-aware all day, you would not be doing and RRC all day; indeed, you wouldn't need to do one at all.Quote:
So, honing the skill of self-awareness till it reaches all day self-aware, then it is like doing RRC
A constantly self-aware person would likely still find value in ADA, and would certainly be able to do the practice; as long as you are not confusing self-awareness with natural awareness (which you would not do if self-aware all day) then practicing ADA would do no harm, and might help a self-aware person keep her attention skills nicely honed. And yes, if you are constantly self-aware, I can't imagine a need for RC's at all; though they wouldn't hinder, they would likely just seem a little silly.Quote:
...so you can't do RC or ADA at all, or they will hinder each other, right?
I personally believe the RRC is best when done by itself -- perhaps with an RC thrown in at the end, as a sort of period to the exercise, but I have chatted with people who have successfully integrated RC's into their RRC "state of mind" with some success. So you could certainly try it both ways, and work toward the exercise(s) that is best for you.Quote:
I am currently doing RRC with RC, but I think I will reduce my RC only to involve noticing dreamlikeness, or is it better complietly without RC?
Absolutely! MILD on its own is a valuable technique for achieving WILD's and DILD's (neither of which are techniques, BTW, but descriptors for a change in mind-state), and to me it is important to learn to become lucid through either the WILD or DILD routes, so that you can do them as needed, based on timing (when you're attempting to be lucid) or convenience.Quote:
Also, MILD(the prospective memory training and intention parts), with the fundamentals and WILD, DEILD would be a great combination?
No worries! I just wanted to be sure we were clear, and that you didn't think there is a thing called ADASA... there are enough initials flying around this place as it is!Quote:
Sorry for the misunderstanding, my mistake:oops:
:cheers:
Ok, no more ADASA.
Just let me get everything straight:
RC: to see a dreamlike thing in waking life and RCing isn't effective, since in a dream, you would notice a dreamlike thing, but lack memory to remember that it is unnatural.
ADA: Again, seeing a dreamlike thing doesn't mean lucidity. We all have ADA in our instinct, and the problem is memory, so practesing ADA won't be so effective, because it is not the issue.
Self-awareness: We practice RRC to increase our self-awareness, but in time, will it become second nature, that we will have a sense of self-awareness most of the time without performing RRC at the moment?
When we become skilled at self-awareness, we will know that the dream is from our creation, and we will become lucid. Why? Is it because a biological factor? Does self-awareness stimulate the part of the brain that is responsible for lucidity?
I really hope I am not bothering you with my over-numbered questions.
Though tend to agree with this, let me clarify quickly what LaBerge originally intended a RC to be:
A reality check is a physical means for determining that the state you are currently is not a dream. In the simplest of terms, all you do is find an action that you can use to do this test (i.e., like looking at a clock, looking away, and then looking back, to see if the time has changed, or if the clock is even still there). While you're doing this test, you ask yourself -- sincerely -- "Is this a dream?."
Now, though it is good to practice RC's during the day at any time, it is also good to do an RC during the day whenever you see something very odd, under the assumption that you'll carry that habit into your dreams where everything is odd. Funny thing: though I practice RC's regularly to this day, I have never, ever, induced a LD by doing a RC during a dream... as you said, if we lack the memory to recognize something as odd, then the odd really doesn't happen in a dream until after you're lucid and remembering, and then you don't need to do the RC anymore.
Yes, and well said.Quote:
ADA: Again, seeing a dreamlike thing doesn't mean lucidity. We all have ADA in our instinct, and the problem is memory, so practesing ADA won't be so effective, because it is not the issue.
Pretty much. I doubt RRC's are the only tool to achieve optimum self-awareness, but they will certainly help keep you on the path, And, when self-awareness becomes second-nature (because, believe it or not, it is not second nature, um, naturally), there will be no need for RRC's.Quote:
Self-awareness: We practice RRC to increase our self-awareness, but in time, will it become second nature, that we will have a sense of self-awareness most of the time without performing RRC at the moment?
Yes. Except you have the order slightly wrong. Thanks to our enhanced self-awareness skills, we will become lucid, and then we will know that the dream is from our creation, making lucidity all the more powerful and our dreamscape all the more malleable. Not much of a difference, I know, but I figured it was worth mentioning.Quote:
When we become skilled at self-awareness, we will know that the dream is from our creation, and we will become lucid.
Honestly? I haven't a clue. It probably is that self-awareness gets just the right neurons to fire in a "custom" hard-wiring sort of way, as you say, or that self-awareness "tricks" your unconscious into thinking that waking-life activity is going on, thus freeing up access to your memory without accidentally triggering your reticular system (the bit of your brain that wakes you up). Or, self-awareness is a condition unto itself, existing outside the confines of normal brain activity, and, if you bring it into a dream with you, you can witness what's going on with the rest of you without it ever finding out... I've always been a fan of that last one, BTW! (I could go on for quite a time with theories about this, but in a sense they're all meaningless and little more than a self-serving distraction, so I won't).Quote:
Why? Is it because a biological factor? Does self-awareness stimulate the part of the brain that is responsible for lucidity?
Not at all! It's why I started this thread!Quote:
I really hope I am not bothering you with my over-numbered questions.
A Quick P.S.:
While I was misunderstanding LouaiB in the conversation above, I took some time to read that ADA: Right or Wrong thread, and noticed that it was not as bad as I remembered: if you set aside the bouts of sophomoric, self-important bullshit that me and King Yoshi childishly exchanged, there is a lot of helpful information about the usefulness of ADA in that thread.
Just sayin'
Im starting to think also that self awareness is pretty much all you need to have lucid dreams. Since you learn to attention whats happening to you and learning looking at it the experience from neutral vie. If someone with low self awareness does something that they normally wouldnt like get angry or sad they never question what would be causing it but if someone who has high self awareness and something sees themselfs become angry or if something new happens they imdientally notice it that it isnt normal and starts observe themself more. So if you easily recall memories in new events to see if it new to you instead of you except it to be not worth thinking over or you dont notice them it in dream then you are more likely to know the situation is weird and making you look at the situation you are in and realize you are dreaming. Is this what you meant?
As I would conclude,ADA, for you to become lucid, is typically noticing the dream "feeling", so next time you have it,you would become lucid. It's like an always existing dream sign. But, I would say that ADA is bad. Maybe it increases the details in dreams so you can get a better sense of the dream feeling, but you can do even better in one LD(set a goal to memorize the feeling)! And, you still need to practice self-awareness and memory, because ADA alone still won't help.
So, I think it's better without ADA, just MILD or WILD, then , after having a few LDs with the goal to memorize the dream feeling, you will use your self-awareness and memory to recognize the feeling that you have memorized next time in a dream, thus becoming lucid.
So, doing this will yield better results than ADA, and will not hinder self-awareness in any way.
Setliez:
Yes, I think this could be seen as basically what I meant...still, I found a couple of spots to comment upon:
Don't forget about memory and expectation/intention, the other fundamentals. Though self-awareness is the driver of lucidity, those other two bits definitely ought to be along for the ride, as they each provide vital support for becoming lucid and then maximizing your lucid dream experience. But you probably already know that, and won't forget, so back to attention:
Be careful of being too neutral, especially in the context dream work. Self-awareness is almost a realization that you are not neutral, ever, and cannot truly separate yourself from the events of your local reality. In waking life it is somewhat possible to take a step back and simply observe the effects of, say, something you just said or did to another person, and that is certainly valuable. But in a dream you can never forget that everything in the dream is you, or attempt to "step back" and assume that there is a force greater than you driving the dream (unless of course you lean in mystical directions, but even then you are starting in your own dream, so some attachment is important).Quote:
Since you learn to attention whats happening to you and learning looking at it the experience from neutral vie.
Absolutely! But there is more, I think, especially when practicing self-awareness in waking-life:Quote:
If someone with low self awareness does something that they normally wouldnt like get angry or sad they never question what would be causing it but if someone who has high self awareness and something sees themselfs become angry or if something new happens they imdientally notice it that it isnt normal and starts observe themself more.
Not only can a person with strong self-awareness observe their actions, they can anticipate their upcoming actions, emotions, even thoughts. This anticipation allows them to do something about unwanted or painful events before they ever happen, should there be a need*. For instance, let's say that you are in a conversation with a particular person that is heading to a place where you have been with her many times; a bad place, one of useless disagreement or anger, negative emotions, and one that to date has always arrived at an emotional explosion with clockwork inevitability. Now let's say you've got your self-awareness with you when that conversation begins: now you can anticipate the upcoming emotional train-wreck and do something about it before it happens. Pretty cool, I think!
* Such ability does come with responsibility, though, as sometimes these difficult conversations (for instance) need to happen in order to move a relationship or series of events positively forward, and you have to be careful not to fully avoid it, just because it might be difficult for you... of course, a self-aware person would likely be okay with that, because he would know that self-awareness is a potentially powerful social tool, and would know to wield it responsibly!
I'm not sure what you meant here, but I'm going to say yes, anyway.Quote:
So if you easily recall memories in new events to see if it new to you instead of you except it to be not worth thinking over or you dont notice them it in dream then you are more likely to know the situation is weird and making you look at the situation you are in and realize you are dreaming. Is this what you meant?
Why? because if you are self-aware in a dream, with access to memory, then you will indeed have no problem recognizing (rather than summarily accepting or dismissing) weird stuff in dreams. But it's more than that, I think. If you are self-aware in a dream, you are already past the point of needing to recognize the weirdness, like remembering that your house does not sit at the edge of a thousand-foot cliff.
A strong sense of self-awareness, especially one that is accessed with ease, pretty much negates the need to do anything to realize you are dreaming (like RC's), because you will just know you are dreaming. The trick, of course, is coaxing that self-awareness into the dream. WILD is a good way to do it, of course, but making things like RRC's a regular exercise, building strong expectations so your dreams themselves trigger your memory (and thus "wake up" your self-awareness), or doing RC's often and sincerely in waking life all offer tools for elevating self-awareness with a thought.
Okay, I'm rambling. I could have stopped after the 12th word of this post, but I guess that wouldn't have been me at all. ;) Also, it's late and my brain is mildly addled, so if I misunderstood anything you said, or if anything I said made no sense at all, let me know.
Seltiez:
Yes, I think this could be seen as basically what I meant...still, I found a couple of spots to comment upon:
Don't forget about memory and expectation/intention, the other fundamentals. Though self-awareness is the driver of lucidity, those other two bits definitely ought to be along for the ride, as they each provide vital support for becoming lucid and then maximizing your lucid dream experience. But you probably already know that, and won't forget, so back to attention:
Be careful of being too neutral, especially in the context dream work. Self-awareness is almost a realization that you are not neutral, ever, and cannot truly separate yourself from the events of your local reality. In waking life it is somewhat possible to take a step back and simply observe the effects of, say, something you just said or did to another person, and that is certainly valuable. But in a dream you can never forget that everything in the dream is you, or attempt to "step back" and assume that there is a force greater than you driving the dream (unless of course you lean in mystical directions, but even then you are starting in your own dream, so some attachment is important).Quote:
Since you learn to attention whats happening to you and learning looking at it the experience from neutral vie.
Absolutely! But there is more, I think, especially when practicing self-awareness in waking-life:Quote:
If someone with low self awareness does something that they normally wouldnt like get angry or sad they never question what would be causing it but if someone who has high self awareness and something sees themselfs become angry or if something new happens they imdientally notice it that it isnt normal and starts observe themself more.
Not only can a person with strong self-awareness observe their actions, they can anticipate their upcoming actions, emotions, even thoughts. This anticipation allows them to do something about unwanted or painful events before they ever happen, should there be a need*. For instance, let's say that you are in a conversation with a particular person that is heading to a place where you have been with her many times; a bad place, one of useless disagreement or anger, negative emotions, and one that to date has always arrived at an emotional explosion with clockwork inevitability. Now let's say you've got your self-awareness with you when that conversation begins: now you can anticipate the upcoming emotional train-wreck and do something about it before it happens. Pretty cool, I think!
* Such ability does come with responsibility, though, as sometimes these difficult conversations (for instance) need to happen in order to move a relationship or series of events positively forward, and you have to be careful not to fully avoid it, just because it might be difficult for you... of course, a self-aware person would likely be okay with that, because he would know that self-awareness is a potentially powerful social tool, and would know to wield it responsibly!
I'm not sure what you meant here, but I'm going to say yes, anyway.Quote:
So if you easily recall memories in new events to see if it new to you instead of you except it to be not worth thinking over or you dont notice them it in dream then you are more likely to know the situation is weird and making you look at the situation you are in and realize you are dreaming. Is this what you meant?
Why? because if you are self-aware in a dream, with access to memory, then you will indeed have no problem recognizing (rather than summarily accepting or dismissing) weird stuff in dreams. But it's more than that, I think. If you are self-aware in a dream, you are already past the point of needing to recognize the weirdness, like remembering that your house does not sit at the edge of a thousand-foot cliff.
A strong sense of self-awareness, especially one that is accessed with ease, pretty much negates the need to do anything to realize you are dreaming (like RC's), because you will just know you are dreaming. The trick, of course, is coaxing that self-awareness into the dream. WILD is a good way to do it, of course, but making things like RRC's a regular exercise, building strong expectations so your dreams themselves trigger your memory (and thus "wake up" your self-awareness), or doing RC's often and sincerely in waking life all offer tools for elevating self-awareness with a thought.
Okay, I'm rambling. I could have stopped after the 12th word of this post, but I guess that wouldn't have been me at all. ;) Also, it's late and my brain is mildly addled, so if I misunderstood anything you said, or if anything I said made no sense at all, let me know.
Thank you!
I need to know every aspect of something for me to accept it. Techniques shouldn't be just made without allot of work with it. And something involving the psychology of the brain needs years of work. Like what you offer, are the most sensible things in the whole LDing world, truly!
I got the hang of it, except for one more detail(hey, maybe I can become your wingman when I get a hang of all of this:P):
when we increase the power of our memory, will it become automatically more powerful in our dreams? Or do we need something to activate it, and when we activate it, it still won't be quiet powerful enough, so that's why we also need to train it? Is expectation what activated it? how?
Realizing the relation between every fundamental is important, I think(like, a mapping of things).
I think it is like this:
First, the expectation turns the memory on, then the memory, along with the RRCs done during the day, will increase the self-awareness. So, there are 2 ways to become lucid، either by realizing the weirdness(thanks to memory), or become spontaneously lucid(thanks to the hightened self-awareness). Right?
Also, how does expectation turn the memory on? and is it the only way
Those situations you described sounds really familiar to me. I always am the one that stops the conversation or debate when i know it isnt going nowhere by accepting their opinion and leaving mine to myself. I see people around me repeating the same thing over and over again without realizing the results of that conversation will lead to fight or both ending up creating negative feelings towards others. Sometimes it is just so annoying because i have to always be the one to step back but i always say to myself that they just arent aware what they are causing by saying the things they say.
I think I can answer both those at once:
Memory has no power, on its own. Think of it as a very large hard drive for your life, storing all the bits that your brain has chosen to store over the years, if some it (the brain) did not choose. But like a hard drive it is just a passive participant, waiting with all its information stored until an external driver reaches in to pluck out need information. Though it can become more dense with information, it cannot be made more powerful, and since it is not an active component of mind, it cannot be trained. But it can be tapped.
We have plenty of conscious and unconscious mechanisms for retrieving memories, and most of them work well enough in our normal lives without any attention at all to them. Unfortunately for us, though, LD'ing is not a "normal" activity, so we need to develop some new habits and tactics for retrieving memories at times that they are not meant to be consciously retrieved (dreams), and in ways normally reserved for unconscious activity (i.e., dream schemata created from conscious expectation/intention, rather than from day residue, random memories, or, perhaps, metaphoric data bursts from the unconscious).
So what you're doing when, say, practicing MILD, isn't actually making your memory more powerful; just your ability to tap it. In a sense, you are activating your waking-life consciousness, teaching it to navigate places it was not meant to go by nature (dreams), and to see things in a naturally unintended manner (like recognizing dreamsigns, or, more importantly, confirming that the place you are in is your dream). So it is your conscious abilities and routines you are improving, and not memory itself. This might all be semantics, but I think it matters.
Yes, expectation is a primary tool for accessing memory, and it is the one that works without breaking too many rules, if any. This is because our dreams have always been partially based on expectation: basically, your unconscious mind gathers the stuff that seems important to you during waking life, along with lots of day residue, and uses it to form your dreams (I'm sure it's far more complex than that, but you get the idea!), so by spending time each day purposely laying out some of that "stuff" for your unconscious to grab, you are building expectations that might show up in your dreams. Intention works in a similar manner, though it is more direct -- but if your intentions are similar to or based directly on the expectations you've been setting all day, you'll see much more success.
Expectation is not the only tool for tapping memory. Indeed, it isn't even the most powerful. Want to guess which is? That's right -- self-awareness! Self-awareness brings with it into the dream the power to remember, to switch on the waking-life circuits that provide access to memory, to make remembering no harder than it is during the day. This is a far more direct tool than expectation, so if you can start with self-awareness in place, the rest doesn't really matter. But how do you switch on self-awareness, if you didn't bring it right in with you through WILD? Well, since DILD's are as prevalent an entry to LD'ing as WILD's, if not more so, that switch must be accessible.
Yet switch for self-awareness in dreams is indeed a hurdle, isn't it? We are not meant to be self-aware, lucid, in dreams, so reigniting it when it is not present is tricky at best... and tricks are what we tend to rely on to start up DILD's: tricks like RC's, noticing the "odd," recognizing images created from our expectation/intentions, and, of course, simply finding yourself asking those RRC questions that you felt so silly asking yourself during the day. But all these "tricks" are not flashy, read-made gimmicks that we pull from a bag during the dream (a bag often sold to us by folks offering clever short-cut-techniques or machines), but rather find their source not in dreams but in waking-life hard work. You must have the habits of RC'ing, RRC'ing, noticing the odd, etc, well-laid in your waking-life routine in order to have them appear in your dreams. And that you must have spent time building expectation and setting intention during waking life is self evident, I think.
So I guess your self-awareness and memory access are "activated" by waking-life mental prep, which certainly includes but is not limited to expectations and intentions. In the end our success with LD'ing is based on what we do when we're awake... and you are correct, what we do when we're awake tends to be little more than consciously struggling to get expectation/intention, memory, and self-awareness to work together in one smooth motion during a dream, as they do in waking life.
So, memory is like a hard drive, and we need to tap it in dreams. There are conscious and unconscious mechanisms for retrieving memories that work well in normal life, but LDing is not a normal activity, so we need to develop habits for retrieving memories in dreams.
Expectation is a primary tool for accessing the memory, because dreams are partially based on expectations. So, we lay "stuff" during the day hoping they manifest into our dreams. Intention works similarly to expectation though it is more direct, and if based directly on expectations, produces more success.
Self-awareness is a more powerful tool for taping memory, because it switches on circuits in the brain providing access to the memory. So, self-awareness is a far more direct tool than expectations. RRC is a habit that manifests in the dream so we become self-aware in the dream, and since it becomes second nature, it will become easier to manifest.
Q1: If we have to manifest something in the dream, it should activate the memory. What would you recommend( the expectation part not the self-awareness part)?
Q2: How do we make intention based directly on expectation?
Q3: If we managed to manifest something that activated the memory, how can we then activate self-awareness so we can become spontaneously lucid?(we might need that if something dreamlike didn't occur)
Q4: Does prospective memory help intention? So the manifestation becomes easier?
Note: I found a webpage that contains a few self-awareness exercises. Would you like me to PM the link?
You got it!
First, you are not literally manifesting anything; you're just assembling solid expectations that might encourage your dreaming mind to produce a dream that has something to do with those expectations. But I know what you mean, and can work with it:Quote:
Q1: If we have to manifest something in the dream, it should activate the memory. What would you recommend( the expectation part not the self-awareness part)?
What you manifest, I think, is completely up to you. What you manifest will be something that is based on your expectations, and those expectations can be anything at all; nothing "works" better than anything else; except of course that your expectations should (and, likely by their nature, will) be meaningful to you. I think if you spend a lot of time seriously thinking about your upcoming dreams, what you will be doing or seeing, and spend a lot of time just thinking bout LD'ing in general, the images manifest by those expectations will be self-explanatory. Of course, whether you recognize those images during the dream or ruefully remember them after the dream is up to you! ;)
Simple. If you've been assembling expectations all day long, you should know what they generally are. So, come bedtime, you can focus those expectations into your intention. For instance, let's say you've spent the day (or more; longer is better) imagining yourself lucid on a beach in Hawaii. Come dreamtime, you can remember those expectations, and set an intention like, "I will 'wake up' on a beach in Hawaii tonight." Intentions, to me, tend to be little more than a conscious summary of your accumulated (or perhaps realized) expectations. Intention, then, is really the same thing as expectation, only more focused and more consciously-borne.Quote:
Q2: How do we make intention based directly on expectation?
If you activated memory, then some amount of self-awareness is already present, so no worries! Remember that it's all keyed on self-awareness. Those expectation/intention-generated images are just so many more images until they cause your dreaming (as yet not self-aware) consciousness to perk up and say, "Hey, this might be a dream?!" After that comes the onset of self-awareness, the recognition of images, the triggering of memories, and lucidity. I really don't think it can work the other way around. Manifest expectations alone won't make you lucid. Nor will other stimuli, like, say, signals from electronic devices or enhanced imagery from drugs like gallantamine; these other things might produce the signals or images that scream "this is a dream," but if your waking-life self-awareness does not come into play, they will lead to nothing more than vivid dreams, or, perhaps, false lucids (NLD's about being lucid)... that last bit might raise an eyebrow or two, but I'm pretty confident it is true.Quote:
Q3: If we managed to manifest something that activated the memory, how can we then activate self-awareness so we can become spontaneously lucid?(we might need that if something dreamlike didn't occur)
Yes.Quote:
Q4: Does prospective memory help intention? So the manifestation becomes easier?
Sure. You could even post it right here; I don't think the mods would mind!Quote:
Note: I found a webpage that contains a few self-awareness exercises. Would you like me to PM the link?
So, expectation is like incubation? You dream of the place you want to be in, then you use that to remember that this is what you incubated. Like a dream sign. But, you need some self-awareness to help you remember(RRC does the trick). So, basically, expectation is a great tool to achieve lucidity when you don't have enough self-awareness to become spontaneously lucid. Well, if you are a little self-aware in the dream, but didn't manage to have the dream you incubated, will that self-awareness help you remember that a dreamlike thing happening(assuming there is one) is unnatural?
So, expectation is like a trick to make you lucid easier, and you can become lucid without it, but always need self-awareness. The more self-aware, the more use you can get from your memory. right?
If I am right, then there would be like 3 "stages":
1. Your self-awareness is high, so you become spontaneously lucid.
2. You see a dreamlike thing, and you have medium self-awareness, so you remember it is unnatural and become lucid.
3. You have low lucidity, see a dreamlike object but don't become lucid, but the thing you incubated appears and you remember it and become lucid.
The link:
How to Improve Your Self Awareness
Not expectation, but setting intention is just like incubation.
I think you're looking for too much from expectation. Expectation is very much a passive rather than active activity. It's sort of like mental gravity: an accumulating force formed by thoughts, wishes, daydreams, plans, etc. I don't think you can switch anything on with expectation, but a solid bout of accumulated expectation can coax your dreaming mind to produce dreams that reflect those expectations -- and a dream that says "I'm dreaming!" or directly matches the stuff you were hoping to do in your dreams, will be very helpful in bringing you to lucidity. However, no matter how obliging your dreaming mind is, expectation alone will not be enough to trigger lucidity.
I've always seen this the other way around -- that deam incubation is a handy way to have your lucid landscape resemble your dream goals for that night, and maybe make them more achievable. I really think that if you rely too much on incubation, you risk just dreaming about being lucid, without any self-awareness present at all. And yes, above it all you still "need some self-awareness to help you remember!"Quote:
You dream of the place you want to be in, then you use that to remember that this is what you incubated. Like a dream sign.
Yes... but it can only be used to aid self-awareness, not to replace it.Quote:
So, basically, expectation is a great tool to achieve lucidity when you don't have enough self-awareness to become spontaneously lucid.
Yes.Quote:
Well, if you are a little self-aware in the dream, but didn't manage to have the dream you incubated, will that self-awareness help you remember that a dreamlike thing happening(assuming there is one) is unnatural?
Right! Just not so much "trick" as "aid."Quote:
So, expectation is like a trick to make you lucid easier, and you can become lucid without it, but always need self-awareness. The more self-aware, the more use you can get from your memory. right?
That all works. I would avoid concepts (or hopes) like "spontaneous," though. Because it is an event of self-awareness, lucidity will rarely, if ever, be a spontaneous event. There are exceptions to this, of course, but in general lucidity is going to be your fault, and not an accident.Quote:
If I am right, then there would be like 3 "stages":
1. Your self-awareness is high, so you become spontaneously lucid.
2. You see a dreamlike thing, and you have medium self-awareness, so you remember it is unnatural and become lucid.
3. You have low lucidity, see a dreamlike object but don't become lucid, but the thing you incubated appears and you remember it and become lucid.
Thanks!Quote:
So, you need self-awareness to activate your memory so you can see dreamlike things as they are, unnatural. RRCs will make you more self-aware in dreams so you can achieve that. So, you can't activate your memory without self-awareness present. Expectation and Intention aid you because, uhm, they form a dream revolving around LDing, so it's easier to see that you are in a dreamlike environment??
What do you think of those techniques in the link? Should I do them?
Edit: Wait a second! I think I realized what expectation/intention do. They show your sub how important LDing is to you, and how you want to LD, so it works harder to achieve that. right?
That's it ... and nicely summarized, I think!
What do I think of them? Well, aside from the author's definition of self-awareness coming up a bit short (to be self-aware you must acknowledge that not only are you separate from other people and your environment, you are also one with them), I guess, with the exception of #2, the exercises would certainly be useful on some level. Keep in mind, though, that they don't seem to have a lot to do with self-awareness; they seem more methods to sharpen your physical awareness, with minimal attention to your own impact on your local reality. They would be a fine supplement for Ld'ing, though, just as ADA is.Quote:
What do you think of those techniques in the link? Should I do them?
Though each exercise seems okay in general, here is my extremely brief take on each: #1 is straight ADA, for better or worse; #2 dramatically complicates RC's, and I don't recommend trying to make things happen in waking-life when they cannot, because then in the dream you will do the exact same thing, and they still won't work... stick the the basic RC's we all know and love, I think; #3 is way too physical at first, then way to intellectually abstract at the end, and this could be very confusing -- simple is always better with this stuff; #4 is fine, but has nothing to do with LD'ing, and could run anathema to it by incubating NLD's; #5 is just ADA in the dream.
So do them if you'd like, but keep in mind that lucidity does not appreciate complication. I would avoid doing #2 altogether, though...
Right again! It all sort of makes sense now, doesn't it? ;)Quote:
Edit: Wait a second! I think I realized what expectation/intention do. They show your sub how important LDing is to you, and how you want to LD, so it works harder to achieve that. right?
It does make sense, really! Thank you very much:D!
Also, after stumbling over your course, I said to myself:"what the hell do those exercises have to do with self-awareness!?"
It's truly a shame, since that website is also a popular website for learning LDing.
Dang, it seems like a minority only shares your perspective(I know I do;)!). I've been teaching LDing to my brother. That darn boy has had 9 LDs with most of them ranging 15-30 minutes. Only 4 months of RCing and mantras. Well, I guess his sub is very "acceptable" to new ideas.
I told him that I will do much better when I get a full hang of this.
And now, it's time!:mwahaha:
I really appreciate all your hard work you've pulled on what seemed as a lost cause like me. I am actually much smarter in real life, honestly(average of 80% on scientific and mathematics subjects, just sayin')
Wow, it really feels like a huge load got off my shoulders. This year is gonna be productive.
:cheers:
I'm glad I was some help, and best of luck with your search!
I've reread all the posts and summarized everything in a sleek and neat peace of writing. Her we go:
{LDing is the issue of memory. Since you memory is off during dreams, you need to turn it on so you can remember that a dreamlike thing is unnatural. How? By increasing your self-awareness in dreams.When you are self-aware in dreams, your memory will be much more accessible.
RRCing is a great way to improve your self-awareness during the day. The nice thing about it is that , with practice, it becomes second nature.
What you want to do is to use that advantage to your benefit. Since dreams are partially made out of our daily experiences, we hope that the self-awareness increased by those RRC will be a part of those experiences that will be lucky enough to be a part of the dream, thus making you more self-aware in the dream. As mentioned above, self-awareness , with practice, will become second nature, so it will be more likely for it to be a part of the dream(that's why it is more effective than RCing). So, more self-awareness= bigger chance of it being a part of the dream(expectations). Also, intention is a more direct way to let those RRCs appear(or their effect(self-awareness)) in the dream. Even better, if you strengthen your prospective memory, the intention will be much more powerful. That's why MILD is a good technique that goes with these fundamentals(especially that it doesn't involve environmental awareness, which would hinder self-awareness).
long story short: More self-awareness in waking life= more self-awareness in dreams= access to memory in dreams= lucidity.
Plus, there is this something called "dream feeling". It's like an always occurring dream sign. With the heightened self-awareness, and access to memory in dreams, it will be very easy to become lucid due to this "feeling". Like some people put it:"I just became lucid out of the blue/spontaneously lucid.
Also, self-awareness in LDs will make the experience much better, and dream control much easier, since you are fully aware that this is YOUR dream world, and it plays by YOUR rules.
Good night gentlemen, and sweat lucid dreams! }
I hope I got everything right, and didn't miss anything.
If not, pretty impressive, no!?
I found this a very useful and clear description of the differences and the relation between intention and expectation, that defines both clearly.Quote:
Simple. If you've been assembling expectations all day long, you should know what they generally are. So, come bedtime, you can focus those expectations into your intention. For instance, let's say you've spent the day (or more; longer is better) imagining yourself lucid on a beach in Hawaii. Come dreamtime, you can remember those expectations, and set an intention like, "I will 'wake up' on a beach in Hawaii tonight." Intentions, to me, tend to be little more than a conscious summary of your accumulated (or perhaps realized) expectations. Intention, then, is really the same thing as expectation, only more focused and more consciously-borne.
a detail about expectation/intention:
If you set up strong expectation with intention, and the thing(lets say a person) appears, it would trigger self-awareness, which will trigger memory so you remember that this person is the person you wanted to see in the dream, so you become lucid. this is one way to coax self-awareness. The other 2 are WILD and RRC.
So, there are 2 general ways to do a DILD:
1. Do a RC or RRC during a dream(thanks to expectation/intention.
2. coax self-awareness so you would have self-awareness and memory to become lucid(using those three ways(with out WILD lol)).
Right?
It's probably more complex than that but yes, that's pretty much how it works. Keep in mind, also, that WILD is not a technique, but rather a term for the transition of wake to sleep without losing waking-life self-awareness, and you can use "strong expectation with intention" and the rest for it, too.
Sounds good... I wish I had been so succinct way back when. For what it's worth, my DILD's are all in the #2 category; I never RC or RRC before becoming lucid.Quote:
So, there are 2 general ways to do a DILD:
1. Do a RC or RRC during a dream(thanks to expectation/intention.
2. coax self-awareness so you would have self-awareness and memory to become lucid(using those three ways(with out WILD lol)).
Right?
Sageous,
I was just slightly unsure about the ‘link’ between the fundamentals:
In a few of my past lucid dreams, I became lucid not because of a ‘technique’, but simply because my awareness in the dream just happened to be very high for some reason, and I was better able to question the oddities of the dream, which in turn created lucidity. My expectation was also high at the time.
1. From these experiences, would I be right in saying the following?:
While memory has no real power of its own, high self-awareness is the real driver of it, allowing it to make connections and retrieve information much better in light of the oddities you’re experiencing (usually leading to lucidity), whereas with low self-awareness, your memory would not be ‘sparked’ to make that connection because your ability to question such oddities would be too low (e.g. a hard-drive cannot fulfill a search request if the computer is switched off). Finally with expectation, things are greatly enhanced as the ‘request’ you want to fulfill is pre-planned, making it a lot easier to validate ‘lucidity’ (i.e. to notice inconsistencies between what you’re currently experiencing, and your knowledge of reality).
2. Secondly, if self-awareness is the driver of memory, and memory itself is greatly complemented by expectation, how should the memory aspect be practiced exclusively as part of the fundamentals?
Thanks.
^^ I do like this new trend of posters answering their own question; what a time-saver!
Still:
Mostly right. I would say that a high level of self-awareness will allow you an opportunity to recognize, to remember, that you are in a dream, regardless of the oddities present. Learning to identify oddities is a handy tool for sparking lucidity, but it really is best to have a "program" in place to have you notice the "odd" during the NLD, before you are lucid, so that your self-awareness has a stimulus on which to grab. This is where expectation comes into play, I think: If you are able to assemble some expectations during waking life that influence your unconscious, dreaming mind, it will indeed provide them during the dream. Again, you will recognize those expectation-driven signals before self-awareness kicks in, but self-awareness must kick in eventually in order for you to be lucid -- and access those memories!
As an aside, this is exactly how -- and why -- LaBerge's NovaDreamer works. It isn't making you lucid, but rather is offering a stimulus (that flashy light) that you will only notice if you've prepared yourself (mostly through building expectation) to notice it -- and, of course, you won't be lucid until after you remember what that flashy light is.
That's an excellent question. I would say that the memory aspect cannot be practiced exclusively, without concern for self-awareness or expectation/intention. I think this is because when you are doing memory exercises, what you are really doing is exercising your ability to access memory with the active tool of self-awareness and the passive tool of expectation. For instance, that Reverse Reality Check I mention in my WILD class includes actively exercising your memory access through self-awareness. If you are able to train yourself, perhaps through MILD exercises, to build expectations that influence your dream, those expectations (mingled with matching intentions you may have set at bedtime) might become manifest in the dream by unconsciously tapping relevant memory... and then you become self-aware.Quote:
2. Secondly, if self-awareness is the driver of memory, and memory itself is greatly complemented by expectation, how should the memory aspect be practiced exclusively as part of the fundamentals?
There is an extremely interesting thread going on elsewhere right now that talks in depth about MILD, memory, and prospective memory (aka: intention). It might be worth checking out.
the expectations you build are for , when in a dream and if they occur, activating the memory, because if the sub choses to incorporate the expectation to the dream, it has to activate the memory while dreaming. Right? I'm guessing it is the episodic memory, right? Then, it since the episodic memory activated, your self-awareness increases, thus activating the semantic memory. Since you have access to the episodic memory, you have a sense of time(if you prepared correctly), thus activating the time based prospective memory cue, thus becoming lucid(I'm guessing that's how pros pecome lucid most of the time). Also, if the prospective memory didn't fulfil its job, then you'ld still have semantic memory to let you recognize dream like entities and become lucid.
Again, all this is suggestions, but I don't know if there is enough info to back them up. What do you think? Is there a direct study on how this works? A detailed explanation to it?
Edit: The idea of kidnapping you and putting you in an fmri is starting to seem more appealing:p
Seriously, why doesn't anybody do more studies and tests about the relation of memory to other aspects!?
^^ Louai, I think it might be time for you to step back and take a breath! You're gathering up so much information, I fear you're going to drown your chances of lucidity in a flood of knowledge -- much of it quite unnecessary! ;) If FryingMan is still browsing, maybe he can PM you with a few words about thinking too much about this stuff?
But you asked, so:
Right enough. I'm not sure the unconscious actually chooses to incorporate, or manifest, your expectations in a dream, as much as it simply does so, because you spent so much waking-life time making those expectations a priority (and, also, you hopefully added a kicker of setting an intention relevant to those expectations).
Hopefully Zoth'll answer this following bit in better detail, but here's my take (fair warning: you won't like it!):
Again, right enough, but way too much information! Though I don't think accessing episodic memory equals having a sense of time (subjective time is a very tricky subject, especially in dreams), the sequence you've outlined seems to make sense. However, I honestly don't think "pros" do much with prospective memory or MILD work at all, much less time-based prospective memory cues, as they have likely developed their self-awareness to a point where they can recognize that they're in a dream simply because they planned to do so that night. I suppose they are sort of following the sequence you describe, though without the prospective memory bit (aside, I guess, from what was accessed by setting an intention before sleep), and certainly not by thinking about all those steps every night! I also think pros and amateurs alike are accessing both episodic and semantic memory in their LD's because their dreams contain both in the first place (though, yes, short-term episodic memory is missing in NLD's, and semantic memory is chaotic at best).Quote:
I'm guessing it is the episodic memory, right? Then, it since the episodic memory activated, your self-awareness increases, thus activating the semantic memory. Since you have access to the episodic memory, you have a sense of time(if you prepared correctly), thus activating the time based prospective memory cue, thus becoming lucid(I'm guessing that's how pros become lucid most of the time).
Not really. Remember that your memory, in whatever format, is not "letting" you do anything. You still need to recognize your dreaming condition on your own, regardless of the images being presented. In other words, if your prospective memory attempt failed, and that was all your were relying on to become lucid (i.e., skipping the self-awareness portion of the exercise), then you likely will not become lucid. All the weirdness in the universe could pass before you unnoticed in a dream, if you have no self-awareness on hand -- or at least a technique, like RC'ing, to cue it up. That, after all, is what NLD's are, isn't it?Quote:
Also, if the prospective memory didn't fulfill its job, then you'd still have semantic memory to let you recognize dream like entities and become lucid.
I think you might consider backing off all this information rather than struggling to back it up. Sometimes less is more, especially in an art as serenity-based as lucid dreaming. Get your head in the right place overall, and the pieces will fall into place for you -- even if you can't identify them all! Again, hopefully Zoth, or someone, will supply you with all that extra info you want on the other thread, but I hope you'll consider the thought that maybe you really don't need it all...Quote:
Again, all this is suggestions, but I don't know if there is enough info to back them up. What do you think? Is there a direct study on how this works? A detailed explanation to it?
They probably wouldn't find anything anyway.;)Quote:
Edit: The idea of kidnapping you and putting you in an fmri is starting to seem more appealing:p
I'm sure they do, though not with dreaming, or LD'ing, in mind.Quote:
Seriously, why doesn't anybody do more studies and tests about the relation of memory to other aspects!?
wow! Thanx :)
When I started training, it was very simple, but when I started to learn the mechanism, the more I learn, the more I think "How am I gonna pull that off!?", but I still do it hoping I can be aware of what to do exactly to focus my efforts on the important aspects and details. I will not worry so much about the details(but still may be active on the other thread ;) ). Yeah, all will fall into place, or at least I hope so. But surely slowing down will help me process everything better.
Thanks again!
I'm gonna leave this thread for a while before I make you jump off a bridge
Haha! I felt the same way. I think you have me beat though for (over?) analyzing this stuff. I too am the type where I must understand everything there is to know about something. The thing about dreaming though is that it's all so "fuzzy," not sharp and clear and well-defined. Take the fundamentals, and build a practice that works for you. It's the dreams I want, not to write a PhD in LDing. The precise scientific relationship between the fundamentals, which one comes first, which one causes the others, etc., really doesn't matter. Do RCs, RRCs, stay mindful and (self)-aware, pay attention to your dreams, build expectation and intention, stay positive, and be consistent. That plus knowledge of the techniques available (try them out, find what works / doesn't work, create your own). That's the road to LD success :).
Yeah I'm still here. Focusing more on practice rather than reading more theory :). I'd just say what I wrote above: stop thinking so much about it, just do it. Still have yet to experience a full-on WILD, but did get my first DEILD 2 weeks ago which was veeerrrry interesting, and whetted my appetite for classical WILD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
I made a flow chart of your fundamentals. I want to post it in my thread to spread the word, and maybe make readers understand the fundamentals easier:
Attachment 6383
Sorry for the quality.
You think it nails it?
Thanks
^^This in particular really clarified things.
This may be unrelated but it just got me thinking….. do you think the fact that high self-awareness being the driver of lucidity, might be the reason why the SSILD technique apparently works so well, as it aims to induce high awareness for when you get into the dream, in other words, it aims to ‘temporarily’ induce the very thing that drives lucidity? (just a thought)
Anyway, thanks again for your help!
Sure. Though I'm not personally comfortable with the amount of "basic" awareness -- almost intentional distraction -- used in SSILD, anything that manages to keep your mind active and focused through the WILD transition would be helpful. In other words, though SSILD doesn't intentually encourage it, self-awareness will very likely come along for the ride...
I’ve almost got it. Just a final word about the fundamentals:
While I’ve never been much good at doing ‘techniques’, I did manage to have some lucid dreams. The reason, I think, was that I had a high sense of awareness in these dreams and high expectation at the time. I’m guessing that these 2 things were what ultimately instigated the ‘memory response’ that made me lucid; as you said previously, while memory cannot be practiced exclusively, you need to work on your access to it, which is powered primarily by self-awareness and passively by expectation. So really, with these 2 things in place, memory will automatically follow, and this self-instigating memory response will happen continuously in your dreams if self-awareness and expectation are consistently practiced/maintained?
Thanks, I was just looking for your approval on this.
Well said! In general, yes, you have it just right, but I must add a small exception:
Memory is always "there." Its files are always unlocked, waiting to be opened, and the strong presence of your self-awareness, of your waking-life "You," will indeed make accessing memory -- opening those files -- potentially as easy as it is in waking-life. All true.
But memory will never "automatically follow" anything, because by its passive nature it does not have a "follow" function. It is there for the accessing, and conscious access in dreams becomes "switched on" with lucidity, but it is still up to you to do the accessing. For instance, with low-level lucidity, it is still quite possible to be aware that you are dreaming, but your self-awareness is weak enough that you forget to access memory and allow your dreaming mind to continue to do the bulk of the accessing, prohibiting dream control and probably shortening your time in a LD while also diminishing the experience.
So yes, I think you have understand the concept well, but keep in mind that memory is not a thing that wants to come to you; you must go to it.
I think Tholey's Reflection-Intention technique is expectation/intention, since we are doing it during the day(building expectation), and when doing the RC part, start visualizing what would we do if we became lucid(with the intention of becoming lucid)(intention).
What do you think? Do you recommend it? Does it effect the self awareness training?
I think you are mostly right saying that Tholey's Reflection-Intention technique is expectation/intention. Expectation/intention encompasses much more than just Tholey's reflection/intention, however, so they are not quite equal. I guess if you diagrammed it, reflection-intention would fall within expectation/intention's circle.
Combining RC's with expectation-stimulating visualization might be a slight extra step to the stuff Tholey talked about, but it certainly follows the same theme; and of course it could be done without negatively effecting your self-awareness practice -- you probably will find it helps!
So I guess i would recommend it, if it works for you, and you don't find yourself forgetting the reasons for your RC's and RRC's by making visualizations a priority.
Tholey Reflection-Intention directly seeped into my dreams pretty quickly (flying, and defeating once and for all those power lines which always blocked my access to the sky), and I think was also partially responsible for my first few LDs. I actually did the LaBerge modified version of it described in ETWOLD and ACILD (A Course In Lucid Dreaming).
Hi Sageous,
I was just wondering about something:
Some mornings, I would wake up after a really vivid NLD. After waking up, I would be in a dreamy daze and wouldn’t remember anything from the previous day, or what I was going to do that day. After a few minutes of getting up, I try to remember things again; I remember what happened yesterday, what I need to do today…..it all quickly comes back. Simultaneously, self-awareness also increases; my sense of self returns and I realize everything; it all quickly returns as leave behind the dreamy daze I was just in.
Does this have anything to do with what you mean about unlocking self-awareness and memory in dreams? Like in a lucid dream, should you try to do the same thing as when you wake up -- try to remember everything, so your full memory comes back to you?
Maybe it’s why they say that lucid dreaming is like ‘waking up’ in dreams.
Thanks.
^^ Cool. This is the second time today I could gather an entire response into one single word:
Yes.
But I can never just leave it at that...
This awakening you describe is indeed the same process that you experience when becoming self-aware in a lucid dream; except that it is sort of done in reverse... kind of fitting, I suppose.
By reverse I mean this: During a dream, your memory is unavailable, and everything in your (recently NLD) dreamscape is "real," and your dream body senses are thoroughly regaled with apparently valid input. So the two bits that are with you upon (actually) waking in the morning -- available memory and a brief moment of morning pause where you automatically take a moment to "fill in" the details of your reality -- are missing. In a sense, during a dream you are in a pre-assembled reality, with no hint that anything needs to be remembered, so you must make an extra effort to remember who you are, where you are, and that your actual sleeping body is somewhere else. This extra effort, this intentional gathering of self-awareness, is pretty much the opposite of the instinctual, memory-charged infusion of self-awareness that rejoins you in the morning, reminding you without effort who you are and where you are.
But you are correct. When you are able to make that effort, able to remember during a dream, you achieve the same results as those which are achieved naturally for you every morning. So becoming lucid is indeed nothing more than waking up, with the same end results, consciously speaking, though during the dream you must do manually what your body does for you naturally every day.
I'm not sure that made any sense at all, but suffice it to say that this response can be reduced to a near perfect tl;dr:
Yes.
Hi Sageous,
I just had some questions about self-awareness:
I’ve been trying to include self-awareness in reality checks, I would usually wonder where I was a few minutes ago, what I’m doing now, what day it is etc. I can see the value of asking these questions in a dream, helping you confirm that you are in fact dreaming, however, I was just a little confused as to how the RRC in itself helps with lucidity.
So I had 2 questions:
1. I know you mentioned that self-awareness is about always knowing your place in reality, the effect you have on it, and it on you. But is there also a level of ‘questioning’ with the RRC, making it easier for you to determine what state you're in?
2. Is it at all similar to regular reality checking, in that once it becomes a habit it begins to take place in your regular dreams?
Thanks in advance :)
Hi Eamo! Here are two answers; I hope they help!
Well, the RRC actually isn't meant to help you determine your state. That's what traditional RC's are for, and why you ought to be doing them. No, the Reverse Reality Check is an exercise to help you develop your self awareness, and when doing it you should already have a feel for the state you are in. So I guess the answer is no, but as long as I'm here, I will say that you should keep the level of your questioning as simple and straightforward as possible, so that you spend more time answering the question than forming it.
Yes. In fact, should RRC's become second nature to you, they may have a much more positive impact than RC's. This is because RC's fail regularly in dreams, but RRC's won't fail because they are not a test but an affirmation. In other words, you are not actually checking anything when doing a RRC, but rather taking a moment to consider your relationship with your local reality, and remembering where you just were and where you will soon be. The state of mind a RRC welcomes is one of self-awareness, and if you perform one sincerely during a dream, you will likely find yourself both self-aware and quite aware that you are in a dream... aka, lucid!Quote:
2. Is it at all similar to regular reality checking, in that once it becomes a habit it begins to take place in your regular dreams?
I hope that made sense; if not, please let me know, and I'll try again.
Yes that makes sense. So if you were in the dream state, and possessing a strong sense of self, and memory of where you were, where you’re going etc. it would make sense that you could easily identify your ‘immediate environment’ as that of a dream.
So I had a few more questions:
1. Is it dissimilar from something like a continuous RC of testing memory? I was just wondering how the sense of ‘self’ comes into the equation, or is it that self-awareness and memory are very inter-linked anyway?
2. Also, if someone was to build self-awareness using the RRC, but did not know about lucid dreaming, would they still find themselves lucid in dreams? Or maybe this is why expectation is needed?
Thanks
Okay, let me repeat: a RRC is not a RC. I guess I should have named it something else! Reality Checks are simple state tests, where you do some task while asking if this is a dream. You cannot test memory with an RC at all, because that is not part of its formula (though you can and certainly should add a reminder to remember each time you RC). Also, I'm not sure what you mean by continuous RC, but they are really not a "continuous" sort of thing; once you've confirmed your state, the RC is done. If you are trying continuously to question your state you will either feel a bit silly or fall into an odd condition of delusion... and yes, from that you can see that I tend to disagree with the folks who suggest that you spend your entire day assuming everything is a dream, or that nothing is real, as these are assumptions that you instinctively know are false, so doing such an exercise will simply be an act of lying to yourself, and that is no help to lucidity at all.
In case I misunderstood, the same goes for RRC's. If you try to do a constant Reverse Reality Check all day long, you will likely get very confused (especially if you are sincere about it), and also the very point of RRC's (gaining-self-awareness and remembering) will be lost in a sea of rote, useless questioning (i.e., what was I doing 15 minutes ago? Oh yeah, asking what I was doing 15 minutes ago! And so on...).
Try to value RC's and RRC's for what they are, respectively, and practice them both as the useful and different tools for LD'ing that they are. Even do them at the same time, if you can. But try to understand that they are truly different exercises, and why.
The RRC is an exercise meant to build up your sense of self; sense of self does not come into the equation in a RRC, it is the equation. Just as you are practicing RC's to test your state, you are practicing RRC's to strengthen your self-awareness. Yes, if you are self-aware, memory is much easier to access (for both retrieval and recording), so in that sense they are linked, but keep in mind that memory is an information source for consciousness, and not an active participant in consciousness. In other words, memory is linked to everything, but is more the fuel for LDing, with self-awareness and expectation/intention being the engines.
No, they likely would not. As you noted already, though self-awareness is the primary aspect of LD'ing, it is not the only aspect. There are plenty of very self-aware people who don't remember their NLD's, much less desire LD's; they simply are not interested in being self-aware in a dream. You do indeed need to have some expectation/intention in place to successfully lucid dream.Quote:
2. Also, if someone was to build self-awareness using the RRC, but did not know about lucid dreaming, would they still find themselves lucid in dreams? Or maybe this is why expectation is needed?
And yes, "accidental" LD's can occur, and a powerfully self-aware person might be better equipped than someone who lacks self-awareness to recognize or enjoy the state when it happens, but that accident was likely a trick of timing, consciousness, or chemistry, and not a result of self-awareness practices.
Hi Sageous,
Thanks for clarifying things. Yes I’m not sure that ‘continuous RC’ is a common term, I presumed it was a ‘method’ used by many lucid dreamers, whereby you would increase the frequency of your reality checks to the point that it becomes a general way of living, and I just thought that the RRC was ‘similar’ in nature to this concept, in that you would spend most of your time considering your interaction with your immediate locale; sorry about the confusion ;-).
Anyway, great advice! I can definitely see the workings of self-awareness and memory in a lucid dreaming sense. While I do occasionally practice the RRC, I’m not sure how high my sense of self-awareness would be in a general sense (it’s probably very hard to measure!) however, I’ve often found that when I do become lucid in a dream, the level of self-awareness attained as a result really reflects my waking life sense of self, with a broad memory of reality; it usually, though, takes a substantial spark of awareness to instigate it. So I can see why it would be so important and how it can really help you to trigger an influx of memory.
Regarding the workings of self-awareness and memory, I’ve often thought of the phenomenon as being like when you’re highly involved with a particular task, you tend to lose track of (and memory of) the day, needing to recall the events leading up the task, in order to bring back the context of the day, so you know what to do next, and to get a better ‘feeling’ for your place in the day. I’m not sure if this makes sense.
Anyway, happy Easter!
Hi Sageous! I just wanted to take a moment to say thank you again for all of your great tutorials and one on one advice. You were instrumental in setting me on a path towards better self-awareness (journey continues), in both waking and dreaming. I feel that your advice is what has provided me, on many occasions, a strong level of waking memory when I become lucid.
Thank you very much Sageous!
Here here!
As a reminder to lucid beginners (from another beginner), *keep up the awareness and the daytime work*, even in dry spells, even when recall is low. Because when you get your sleep schedule and/or your recall issues resolved, your awareness will be waiting for you once your dreaming returns. This has happened in the last 4 nights for me after near to a month of less than satisfying recall with short or low-awareness lucids, all of a sudden in 4 days I've had amazing lucid, semi-lucid, and just plain fun and vivid normal dreams. I've kept up my day work every day despite the poor dreaming spell and now I'm glad I did.
This last night I was very wakeful for various reasons for several hours, and when I finally approached sleep I could *feel* the dreams swarming around me, the images presenting themselves practically begging to be allowed to form into dreams. I had sequence of short but fun dreams some of them lucid I think, some semi-lucid, some non-lucid, but all interesting. I think these were actual WILDs or about as close to them as I've gotten yet, with either no or very very short discontinuity and instantly recognizing the dream as soon as I entered it.
The point of this again is: keep building self-awareness, never stop, never quit! There *will* be a time when it finally starts paying off, the investment is well worth it!
(And the other lesson is perhaps: some wakefulness during the night can really boost dreaming, long WBTBs can result in awesome dreaming, that slow slow fade into sleep can really help you enter the dream aware).
Hi Sageous,
About the RRC, I’ve been trying to do it on and off for the last while, but I’m not sure if I’m doing it correctly. What I normally do is this:
Every now and then, I would just stop and think about what I’ve done all day, what I’m doing now, and what I’ll probably be doing later. I try to do all this in one emphatic mental effort, taking a minute or two to just consider it all. It’s kind of hard to describe, I mean, it’s not that I think about particular events throughout the day, it’s more of an all-encompassing consideration, like just remembering my ‘place’ in the day, if this makes any sense. It can be difficult to do sometimes.
I’m no expert, but whenever I do an RRC like this, it does feel effective (I mean having a good sense of your presence in all you've been doing), so do you think this is basically the right way to do it? Thanks.
^^ First, Eamo, if what you're doing feels effective, and enhances your self-awareness, you must be doing something right, right?
That said, I think your RRC might work a little better with regard to preparing you for LD'ing if you tighten it up a bit. Instead of contemplating what you did all day, try to limit your review to what you did just a few minutes ago. Same with the future; try to just think about what you'll be doing in a few minutes. And don't forget to also consider where you are right now, what you're doing right now, what impact you are having on your immediate surroundings, and its impact on you.
Since a dream is very much a "here & now" event, there is some sense in trying to make your RRC a "here & now" event as well -- or as close to that as you can get. Also, it's good to try to keep your interaction with reality relatively simple (i.e., try not to think about you place in the universe, but just your local reality), but I think you already understand that bit.
So, though the exercise you are doing seems a good one, will certainly be a good assist in developing your self-awareness, and is worth continuing in its own right, it might not hurt to downsize the time frames of your review to make it amenable to a lucid dreaming context.
Hi Sageous,
Thanks for all your advice so far, it’s been a real help! :)
I just had some final questions (for now at least! :wink:)
I’ve had a few lucid dreams where I just *knew* I was dreaming, with no need for an RC. They were just like spontaneous or natural lucid dreams. I’m not sure how they happened - maybe something in the dream was just so odd that it sparked my memory and self-awareness to let me know that I was dreaming…
…I’m guessing that if you were in a dream and just became ‘self-aware’ for whatever reason, you would obviously know you’re dreaming!
1. So I understand that the RRC is not an RC, but would it be right to say that the RRC is basically a way of getting some self-awareness into the dream state, so that you can know you’re dreaming? (a bit like a “reminder” to be self-aware, thanks to continuous habitual practice?).
2. You say that building self-awareness with the RRC takes years of practice. Is this really true?! On a purely basic level, wouldn’t it take, say, a few weeks for the ‘habit’ of doing the RRC to start happening in dreams, like reality checks?
3. If you practice the RRC, say, every hour or so, between these times are you still ‘building’ self-awareness, I mean, is the point of the RRC that you become self-aware periodically, or do you also develop an overall sense of self-awareness from doing this (maybe I misunderstand it :roll:)?
Sorry about all these questions, Sageous :lol:! Just trying to put the puzzle together! Thanks for your time! :)
First, Eamo, keep in mind that those LD's you are having are very likely neither spontaneous nor natural, but rather the result of a mindset you've developed through your daytime work, your expectations/intentions, and the fact that LD'ing is currently simmering nicely on a front burner of your psyche.
In other words, develop your self-awareness and memory (that daytime work), keep positive thoughts of your future lucid adventures high in your mind, and you will find yourself simply having LD's without apparent effort during the dream. They might feel spontaneous or natural, but they actually are the result of your hard work and energetic contributions, whether or not you consciously acknowledge that at the time. Properly prepare your mind, and all those techniques and tricks (i.e., RC's) will seem unnecessary come dreamtime! ... That is sort of the theme of this thread, BTW.
Now, though I might already have answered them, here are some responses:
I do appreciate it when the questions come with their own answers! Yes, the RRC is meant to spur your self-awareness, and to ultimately remind you that you are directly connected with your world (and, more importantly, your dream world), and it with you. Though this attitude of non-dualism or monism is crucial to successful LD'ing -- especially the advanced stuff -- it has been a generally forgotten ingredient in the soup of techniques brewing these days; the RRC was an effort to rectify that.
It's really true, but it's also really not as bad as it sounds!Quote:
2. You say that building self-awareness with the RRC takes years of practice. Is this really true?! On a purely basic level, wouldn’t it take, say, a few weeks for the ‘habit’ of doing the RRC to start happening in dreams, like reality checks?
Properly building self-awareness with any tool takes years of practice. But it isn't like you have to work for a decade with zero self-awareness, and then all at once you graduate into a world of self-awareness. No. As you work toward a higher goal of frequent, accessible, self-awareness, you will develop skills that spur the condition more easily, and you will enjoy bouts of self-awareness fairly quickly. In other words, yes, it will take years to develop a mature, self-aware consciousness, but the side-effects that accompany the journey include plenty of self-aware moments and, hopefully, plenty of LD's.
Also, yes, the habit (I don't like that word) of RRC's will likely help you become lucid, especially if you take that habit (still don't like it) into your dreams with you. But that is, for me, more a welcome side-effect than a goal of the RRC. In other words, just like RC's, if you perform your RRC's in waking-life properly you will not need them in the dream. Oh, and by "properly" I emphatically suggest that you avoid letting them become rote or habitual -- they must always be accompanied by a sincere sense of wonder, of deep interest, or else they will not work, short or long term, in your dreams or out.
The simple answer to this is "Yes."Quote:
3. If you practice the RRC, say, every hour or so, between these times are you still ‘building’ self-awareness, I mean, is the point of the RRC that you become self-aware periodically, or do you also develop an overall sense of self-awareness from doing this (maybe I misunderstand :roll:)?
If your RRC's are done well, and made a part of your everyday life, they will indeed help you develop an overall sense of Self; of self-awareness. Of course you will need much more than just them but, curiously, they tend to lead you toward other self-awareness-inducing habits, like -- for instance -- thinking about what you're really saying during conversations, or noticing the potential consequences of your actions before you do them (it's a pretty cool sense, BTW!). So, yes, the RRC's front-end goal is to give you a "moment" of self-awareness, but over time it might serve as a tool for much more!
No worries; I'm happy to help. This is a remarkably complex puzzle, part of the greatest puzzle of them all, I think. It is a journey that I am years from completing myself, so I certainly understand the need for questions & answers. And, on a selfish note, rattling off these answers is good mental exercise, so I really don't mind the questions!Quote:
Sorry about all these questions, Sageous! Just trying to put the puzzle together!
:sageous:
Hello Sageous :),
Been a while since I've been active in this forum
I think I'm getting better at self awareness. Though MILD is my main technique, I'd love to have a more powerful sense of self awareness if it grants me higher quality LDs. Of course I've asked you before about all of this, and I'm not gonna roll the same ball again. I've been doing RRC exactly as it should be done, and I'm getting more and more used to it, but I'm not feeling any changes, like I'm not feeling that I'm getting better at it. Is it because I'm doing it wrong or is it because it's a skill, like others, for instance art skills, that you get better at without actually feeling any improvement.
So I consider my existence in this world, simply go through the idea that I am alive and conscious, and interacting with this world. But this makes me wonder why is this particular thought so special? Of course as you've explained to me, it stimulated parts of the brain that serve a benefit in increasing the quality of LDs, and also inducing them. I guess it's like counting or singing, which induce different parts of our brain automatically without us feeling it. Surely the idea of using self awareness training (RRC) for this purpose would be useless if we don't build a tendency to unconsciously 'perform' it without conscious effort, or in other words, make it a 'habit' that will persist during our dreams.
OK great, this is a sweet deal, but I just can't stop this feeling that lingers through my bones telling me this information has a weak scientific foundation. Our knowledge of brain functions is still vague, and thus this complex procedure involving self awareness can't be proven true, not yet. And in the other hand, it may not be true at all. Maybe it is other factors from this procedure that causes results, not the actual self awareness part. Of course you might disagree, and I am surely no expert, and I'd trust your word more than mine, and frankly the self awareness technique seems to be the only technique that promises such great results.
Trust me, LDing is the thing I want most in this world, and surely it's quality is very very crucial, and what I'm about to do might change my whole LDing future experiences, but having no other way to achieve such quality except a technique which isn't very clear in it's cores, worries me a lot and makes me feel a great deal of despair.
Surely I didn't come here to rant. I just want to ask you, how sure are you about this? I'm willing to go all the way if you want me to and are sure I'll get the promised results (of course if I do it right)(and I understand it takes years and years of practice, and I am ready and willing), and if you can provide any possible cognitive clues indicating this technique's possible validity, that'll really ease my mind.
This is an important step for me, really.
Thank you for any help you might provide:)
Welcome back, Louai!
Though your post makes some good points and I think I can see your case for concern, I notice that you might still not have a clear understanding of self-awareness or the RRC's. So there may still be room for encouragement by me and a further place to go for you. Here are some specific responses that I hope will help:
Self-awareness is not about quality, period. Yes, if your self-awareness is strong in a dream, you have an opportunity to improve that dream's quality, but that is not why you must develop it. Self-awareness literally equals lucidity, and it is just as important to have it with you when practicing MILD as it is when attempting a WILD. Or a DILD... or whatever other "ILD" they've come up with.
I think you know this, but let me clarify anyway: self-awareness is not a technique; it is the state of mind that makes us human, that defines our sentience, that allows you to ask questions like "Who am I?" and "Is this a dream?" Master your sense of self-awareness, and you will never even need a technique to become lucid.
The RRC is a technique, one that offers a small step toward briefly gathering self-awareness, and perhaps help you become self-aware more easily in a dream (more in a bit), but it is by no means all you need. Self-awareness is a very big deal, by every measure; there is no trick or technique to magically summon it. You must work slowly, steadily, and positively on developing it yourself, and sometimes the rewiring involved can take quite a bit of effort!
Well, you're not doing your RRC's exactly as suggested. When doing an RRC, you should be asking three simple questions: where you were a few minutes ago, where you will be in a few minutes, and where you are right now, and while asking those questions, really wonder about your interaction with your immediate reality.Quote:
I've been doing RRC exactly as it should be done and I'm getting more and more used to it, but I'm not feeling any changes, like I'm not feeling that I'm getting better at it. Is it because I'm doing it wrong or is it because it's a skill, like others, for instance art skills, that you get better at without actually feeling any improvement. So I consider my existence in this world, simply go through the idea that I am alive and conscious, and interacting with this world.
Try not to consider things as big as your "existence in this world," or as abstract as things like "I am alive and conscious." Instead, wonder about the effect that things you have just done or said have had on others, or perhaps about the effect some action you are planning will really cause, or maybe about what kind of impact your presence right now is having on your local reality, or it on you. For example: Think about that conversation you just had with your friend an hour ago, and what effect your words might be having; think about the game you're going to play in a few minutes, and about the effect that time spent will have on you, and on your day; and think about yourself, perhaps sitting here at your computer, minding the Web, and touching other people's lives with your posts, and you with theirs, perhaps think about the impact you are having just by being present in the room you happen to be in at the moment, and wonder about its impact on you (there always is one). And while you are thinking, try to wonder, simply, and not intellectually -- just absorb the presence of each moment you're considering, and let its meaning find you, if it can... don't parse information, or lend definitions, or try any cause-and-effect logic; just wonder!
Above all else, don't make this wondering something that encompasses the whole universe; when you start wondering about your place in "everything," you are actually reducing your self-awareness by elevating the status of your surroundings. If you make everything else too important, you forget your self, and doing this will do exactly what you do not want to do during a dream.
Keep in mind that you are not developing a specific skill here, so there isn't a zero-sum exchange of results for effort. You are developing a state of mind, nurturing better access to a part of you that already exists. As you progress you will likely see results (i.e., possibly not needing techniques to LD anymore -- more in a sec)), but those results won't come in the form of new skills or talent, but in an improvement in the nature of your relationship with reality, that reality being in dreams or waking life.
Also keep in mind that this is pretty hi-end stuff I'm talking about here. Do RRC's, and RC's, correctly and you should find your WILD or MILD practice easier to do, and with more consistent positive results...no promises, though; results that always depend on your input can only be guaranteed by you, and not me (or anyone).
It is special for a lot of reasons, but for LD'ing specifically it is special because it helps you to remember, during the dream, that this place, this world, is You, and that the interaction between you and it is perfect -- everything around you is created by you, everything you do and think will influence it, and you will be influenced by it -- you and your dream are all just one body of thought. This is also known as non-dualistic perception, which I feel is critical to successful LD'ing.Quote:
But this makes me wonder why is this particular thought so special?
Then I explained poorly.Quote:
Of course as you've explained to me, it stimulated parts of the brain that serve a benefit in increasing the quality of LDs, and also inducing them. I guess it's like counting or singing, which induce different parts of our brain automatically without us feeling it. Surely the idea of using self awareness training (RRC) for this purpose would be useless if we don't build a tendency to unconsciously 'perform' it without conscious effort, or in other words, make it a 'habit' that will persist during our dreams.
Yes, one benefit of making a habit (I hate that word) of RRC's might make them "happen" during a dream, and that is a good thing; just as it is a good thing with regular RC's. So yes, RRC's do have a potential to induce LD's. But, just as with regular RC's, that induction is only a happy side-effect, and one BTW that can lead just as easily to false LD's about doing a RRC and being lucid as they can to doing a RRC that gets you lucid.
No, the core purpose of RRC's is to allow you a quiet moment of self-awareness a few times a day, to help get your mind comfortable with this sort of introspection. Yes, you are triggering parts of your brain in ways that it would not normally be triggered, but that effect is far more global than just stimulating certain centers, or getting a couple of synapses to fire regularly, This exercise helps exercise the nebulous, incredibly complicated, remarkably unmapped brain circuitry that is the engine of your waking-life self-awareness. If you are able to exercise that process to the point where you find yourself easily self-aware many times a day -- or perhaps, say, you start considering the consequence of your words and actions before you say or do things -- you will be rewarded with an accessible state of mind that will help you LD (and do many other things) without ever once having a RRC happen in your dream.
This is a very important bit...if I explained poorly again, let me know and I will try one more time!
A weak scientific foundation? Are you kidding me? The real question here is whether there is a scientific foundation for any of this stuff at all! ;) And of course the next, and perhaps more valid, question to ask is if that even matters.Quote:
OK great, this is a sweet deal, but I just can't stop this feeling that lingers through my bones telling me this information has a weak scientific foundation. Our knowledge of brain functions is still vague, and thus this complex procedure involving self awareness can't be proven true, not yet. And in the other hand, it may not be true at all.
When you learned how to walk, to run, to ride a bicycle, to read, to fall in love, did you expect a scientific explanation for those things as well? Developing self-awareness, to date, is about as unscientific a process and goal as there is, but for me it is also the most important goal you will ever set (with or without LD'ing).
Scientifically proven or not, keep in mind that self-awareness is a proven fact simply because we can consider its existence. The thing that makes us human is self-awareness: The roots of religion, philosophy, science, and pretty much every other uniquely human endeavor, not only sprouted from self-awareness, but it was self-awareness that created them in the first place. If we didn't know that we "Are," then we would not know we "were," or "will be," either, and there would never have developed any curiosity or concern about our environment, our selves, and our futures. Without self-awareness, we would have gotten real good at hunting, maybe, but farming, technology, religion, philosophy, literature -- hell, anything that makes us human -- would not exist today were it not for self-awareness. Self-awareness defines us as a species, literally. So, whether or not its physical processes are ever proven, it clearly has proven its existence.
The sad part of all this, of course, is that, as far as we've come, humans to this day are still very bad at actually exercising, recognizing, or understanding the importance of their self-awareness.
Again, you may have this backward. The "actual self-awareness part" is the goal, and the coincidence of the RRC procedure happening in a dream -- and happening correctly -- is a welcome side-effect or secondary result. I hope I was not too vague about this in the past, but that is the case. And again, self-awareness is not a technique: I wonder if your problem with it, and with the RRC, is that you are considering it one. I suggest that you consider not doing that. You are not achieving great results by successfully enacting some "self-awareness technique;" you are achieving great results because you have done things to help increase or make more accessible your own potentials to consciously enjoy the very real state of self-awareness.Quote:
Maybe it is other factors from this procedure that causes results, not the actual self awareness part. Of course you might disagree, and I am surely no expert, and I'd trust your word more than mine, and frankly the self awareness technique seems to be the only technique that promises such great results.
So the RRC is not a self-awareness technique; it by no means "gives you" self-awareness. No, it is a technique meant to invite, nourish, and make familiar a state of self-awareness, this state being drawn from mental conditions and processes that have existed in you since day one.
[A brief aside: If I misunderstood this and you do not have this backward, I hope you will still read what I have said and not immediately make defenses -- these things still hold their meaning if you fully understand that self-awareness is not a technique.]
Well, I hope I was a little clearer this time, and that you don't despair! I am obviously sure about self-awareness, and frankly I am confident that the RRC is a good technique for helping to develop it. The RRC is by no means the only technique, and likely there ultimately are no techniques that will bring you to heightened, consistent self-awareness on their own, and certainly not in a short amount a time. As you said, developing self-awareness is a lifelong pursuit, and you will likely never reach a state of constant self-awareness.Quote:
Trust me, LDing is the thing I want most in this world, and surely it's quality is very very crucial, and what I'm about to do might change my whole LDing future experiences, but having no other way to achieve such quality except a technique which isn't very clear in it's cores, worries me a lot and makes me feel a great deal of despair.
Surely I didn't come here to rant. I just want to ask you, how sure are you about this? I'm willing to go all the way if you want me to and are sure I'll get the promised results (of course if I do it right)(and I understand it takes years and years of practice, and I am ready and willing), and if you can provide any possible cognitive clues indicating this technique's possible validity, that'll really ease my mind.
That said, the RRC is a good step toward developing a personal system for summoning self-awareness when you need it (like during a dream, or perhaps during a fight with a dear friend). Even that small step might take years to develop, but it will happen much more quickly than complete self-awareness.
At the risk of sounding like a mystic asshole, you will receive your cognitive clues as you progress. I can't tell you what they will be, because they will be specific to your nature and how you personally navigate your world. For me, LD-wise I have reached a point where things like dream control, stabilization, prolonging, and chaining through DEILD are done without a thought and certainly without any techniques -- self awareness during the dream is more than enough. Sure, I have a long way to go to reach my goals, especially in the memory department, but strong self-awareness has gotten me quite far. And that's just dreaming: waking-life-wise, self-awareness has become an invaluable tool for dealing with interpersonal issues, making conversation, learning new things, finding or at least imagining my "real" place in this world, and even with taking care of myself physically... learning to understand that "you are here," and that everything you do and say has an effect on your immediate reality, and it on you, will do wonderful things for your successful navigation of the mundane world.
And speaking of mystic assholes: Keep in mind that, though I may have shifted things slightly and left much out in the name of streamlining the RRC to a WILD program, absolutely nothing I say here is new. These exercises, these questions, and the importance of self-awareness have been staples of deep thinkers in many disciplines (especially, of course, dream yoga and Tibetan Buddhist and other Eastern mysticism) for uncounted centuries... this stuff is by no means new, and has been practiced successfully in one form or another probably throughout history.
It sure is, and just asking the question reflects the importance of that step to you -- congratulations!Quote:
This is an important step for me, really.
tl;dr: This time I got nothin' that will abbreviate these answers -- indeed, they could have been a whole lot longer. Suffice it to say that self-awareness is not a technique, but it is hands-down the most important ingredient in the LD'ing mix. Expect your work to develop it to last many years, but in the meantime use RRC's as a tool, but not the only tool, to help you briefly tap it.
So that's what I got; I hope it helped clear things up. If not, then ask again, and I'll have another go (be warned that I'll probably keep saying the same things over and over;)) Also, I truly hope that I have not contradicted anything I said earlier, as that was not intended.
:sageous:
Thank you very much! OK I've think I've gotten out of the tough spot, if these few paragraphs ahead aren't more misconceptions from me :/
So we get used to this state of mind were our environment triggers questions and thoughts in our mind we would never consider before if we haven't nourished our self awareness? Is this what nourishing self awareness is about? Having a state of mind that trigers questions when faced with certain situations that would otherwise be un-triggered if we haven't nourished this state of mind ,so in a dream they (these questions, or thoughts that we learn to have) would be hovering around us waiting for something to trigger them and trigger lucidity? It's like having a reflex to consider these questions when faced with situations that may trigger them?
So we are not actually nurturing self awareness, we are training this state of mind that triggers these question (that if processed make us lucid) that depend on self awareness? So when you say self awareness comes after lucidity, but also training it triggers lucidity, you mean this state of mind triggers these questions which triggers lucidity, and so self awareness is also directly a part of the dream now(after becoming lucid)? So it's this state of mind that triggers lucidity, not the self awareness, but we still need self awareness because it is what let's us be able to ask and answer these questions in the first place? So self awareness is a tool. We aim to nurture using a mind set that depends on self awareness? So when you say nurture self awareness ,you mean nurture the mindset to always consider those questions, and those questions depend on self awareness. Right?
If this is true then we always have access to self awareness even in non lucid dreams, or otherwise these questions would hover in our dream unanswered. But it's not about self awareness that makes us lucid, it's about these question and thought that make us lucid, and they are related and need self awareness.
This paragraph was after writing a full 1000 word post and spending an hour trying to understand this whole process. So self awareness isn't a thing, it's a state of mind that considers these types of questions? It's like a critical considerate state of mind that activates with certain situations? What situations? What situations in a dream might trigger them? I assume a lot of these situations in a dream happen unconsciously, and triggers our lucidity automatically?
Hmm. Apparently my answers and clarifications did more harm than good.
Let me try one more time:
You may still be in a tough spot, Louai; let's see if we can't wriggle you a bit loose.
Before I start, let me note that it seems you have simply exchanged the term "RRC" with "self-awareness." That is not a good idea. The questions and (far more important) the wondering of the RRC are the only tools here, and they are meant to help establish a moment of self-awareness -- that may sound like they are meant to trigger lucidity, but that is not really the case. I'll cover all this in detail below, but that needed to be said.
Also before I start, I wonder if I might make a minor retraction. In the WILD class, perhaps during a moment of regrettable hyperbole, I might have implied that doing RRC's often enough (aka, habitually) would make them happen during a NLD, and then you will be lucid. If I said that or implied it I should not have, because that is not their primary purpose.
Now:
No, no, no, and definitely not.Quote:
So we get used to this state of mind where our environment triggers questions and thoughts in our mind we would never consider before if we haven't nourished our self awareness? Is this what nourishing self awareness is about? Having a state of mind that triggers questions when faced with certain situations that would otherwise be un-triggered if we haven't nourished this state of mind ,so in a dream they (these questions, or thoughts that we learn to have) would be hovering around us waiting for something to trigger them and trigger lucidity? It's like having a reflex to consider these questions when faced with situations that may trigger them?
More specifically:
Our environment isn't triggering anything. The RRC is meant to provide an opportunity for you to allow yourself a moment of self-awareness, period. The environment is barely involved.Quote:
So we get used to this state of mind where our environment triggers questions and thoughts in our mind we would never consider before if we haven't nourished our self awareness?
If the RRC has you asking questions or finding answers that you never would have thought about otherwise, that's great; but that is not its primary purpose. Perhaps I chose the wrong word, but the nourishing you are doing here is more of a reminder that you are you, and that you are always interacting with reality (aka, self-awareness); you are not tricking your self-awareness to the surface through the trickery of clever questions, you are simply taking a moment to recognize its existence (and yours). And this recognition, were you to carry it into your dream, would be most helpful.
Yes, as I said earlier the "habit" of doing RRC's, if it manifests in a dream, might help encourage a DILD. But, as I also said earlier, that is a happy side-effect, and not its core purpose. But even then the fact that the NLD environment has generated a RRC, it isn't actually triggering anything -- you still have to become lucid yourself.
Okay, aside from the fact that you actually are nurturing self-awareness: You are not training a state of mind that triggers anything. I highly recommend that you get the word "trigger" out of your mind, as it might help you to understand that the RRC is not a machine for causing lucidity on its own; indeed, it really only works well in a dream after you are lucid.Quote:
So we are not actually nurturing self awareness, we are training this state of mind that triggers these question (that if processed make us lucid) that depend on self awareness?
I think you have may have misunderstood the nature of the questions you ask during a RRC. I suppose they could be triggers, but they are not triggers to "make us lucid," they are triggers to encourage a mental pause, that mental pause being one of wonder about our interaction with reality. The questions do not depend on self-awareness, they remind us that we are self-aware, or, rather, wondering about their answers reminds us of that.
The questions do not depend on anything, and are not "triggered" into being asked; you must still remember to take a moment, a pause, to ask them and consider their answers. And again, these questions are quite fluid: you can ask them in different ways, or not ask them at all -- it is the answering, the wondering, that matters, and not the questions. Essentially, RRC is a simple suggestion that you take a moment to wonder about the fact that you exist, and your existence has a part in reality. It is not a magic button that produces lucidity, and its questions are just questions.
Here seems a good place to remind you of the context of the RRC: It is being used to prepare you for doing WILD's. WILD's by definition assume that you never lose your waking-life consciousness throughout the WILD process. There is no need to trigger lucidity when doing a WILD, because you are supposed to be lucid the whole time.
I never said self-awareness comes after lucidity, not even once. Self-awareness is lucidity, literally, so it must be present or else there will not be lucidity. You also cannot be self-aware before you are lucid, for the same reason (if you are self-aware, then you are lucid).Quote:
So when you say self awareness comes after lucidity, but also training it triggers lucidity, you mean this state of mind triggers these questions which triggers lucidity, and so self awareness is also directly a part of the dream now(after becoming lucid)?
Now back to this triggering: again, the RRC was aimed at WILD, so the "training" assumes you will be awake, and reasonably self-aware, throughout the WILD dive. That said, I suppose that if you are including RRC's for MILD practice, which I would recommend, you are still using it to create that "self-awareness pause," and it would not be much of a trigger. In other words, yes, if your habit of RRC's manifests in a dream, the mental prep from MILD will likely put it to good use and you might become lucid... but keep in mind you are becoming lucid because you remembered to ask the RRC questions, to wonder, and not because of some special property inherent in those questions.
That state of mind is self-awareness! And (again) yes, we still need self-awareness, not because it is "what lets us be able to ask and answer these questions," but because it is lucidity. Those questions are really, really, really not the important part in all this!Quote:
So it's this state of mind that triggers lucidity, not the self awareness, but we still need self awareness because it is what let's us be able to ask and answer these questions in the first place?
And now:
No, it is not; self-awareness is You. Hopefully you get that by now.Quote:
So self awareness is a tool.
Okay, I can give that one a qualified yes, I think!Quote:
We aim to nurture using a mind set that depends on self awareness?
However, we are not nurturing a mindset that depends on self-awareness, so much as one that remembers and welcomes the presence of self-awareness.
Wrong. You are using the RRC (the questions) to nurture self-awareness, yes, but those questions are just questions, just words, and they do not depend on self-awareness. You could ask and answer them over and over without one wit of self-awareness, especially if you choose to simply ask some questions now and then, and then answer them straight up without really wondering about your interaction with reality.Quote:
So when you say nurture self awareness ,you mean nurture the mindset to always consider those questions, and those questions depend on self awareness. Right?
You must try to shake off the idea that the RRC is a technique that will make you lucid simply by doing it -- it won't. In truth, that technique doesn't exist in any form; lucidity comes from you, your grasp of the fundamentals, and never as the result of some trick. Techniques might help, but they are not the complete answer.
Funny thing, though: self-awareness is not a technique, and if it is present in a dream, you will be lucid. No triggering, no technique, just you, aware of your Self, and aware that the entire dreamscape is a projection of that Self.
No.Quote:
If this is true then we always have access to self awareness even in non lucid dreams, or otherwise these questions would hover in our dream unanswered.
Yes, we always have "access," after a fashion, to self-awareness, just as we always have access, after a fashion, to memory. But "access" and "presence" are two very different things. In a NLD, again by definition, you are not self-aware; your consciousness works just fine, but it does not remember who you are, where you were an hour ago, or that this place is not real. So, if you perform, from habit or expectation, a RRC in a NLD, there is an excellent chance that you will still fail to remember these things, and the questions will receive nice, expected answers from your dreaming mind, satisfying you but continuing the NLD. I can't say enough that the questions are not magic beans, Louai, they are simply aids in helping you take a moment to consider your interaction with reality.
The RRC works best after you become aware you are dreaming. Take that pause and apply it to the fact that this "reality" is all yours, and you will find it much easier to navigate the dream, to remember, to stay lucid, and to attempt your desired goals.
But, especially if you are doing MILD and have prepared yourself to recognize yourself doing a RRC (or RC, for that matter, as they both work the same in this context), RRC's can still help to make you lucid. In other words, if you design the RRC as a trigger for your memory during a NLD, then its performance might be enough to spark memory, stir self-awareness, and bring you to lucidity... but you must be doing MILD in order for this to happen; it will likely not happen on its own! Also, if you do use the symbol of a RRC to bring about lucidity, I suggest you still do a proper one after you are lucid; you might appreciate the results!
No. It is all about self-awareness! But I guess I've said that enough already. And hopefully by now I've made the point that, with that one MILD exception, these questions and thought do not "make us lucid." They may help a bit, in terms of encouraging more self-awareness in general, but the power to become lucid rests in us, and not in a question.Quote:
But it's not about self awareness that makes us lucid, it's about these question and thought that make us lucid, and they are related and need self awareness.
This seems like a nice spot for this aside:
If you do your RRC's often enough, and thoughtfully enough, you might eventually find yourself self-aware quite readily. As you become more and more accustomed to your state of self-awareness, you will likely find yourself "self-aware" in more and more moments of your life -- including dreams. Eventually RRC's will no longer be necessary, because you will have learned to remember that you exist, and that you have an influence on your local reality and it on you, without needing something to remind you. You will also be able to more easily maintain your self-awareness for longer stretches, avoiding the distractions that usually erase it; this will make LD'ing much, much easier.
No. It arguably is a thing, if by thing you mean the very real condition of consciousness that allows us to understand that we exist.Quote:
This paragraph was after writing a full 1000 word post and spending an hour trying to understand this whole process. So self awareness isn't a thing, it's a state of mind that considers these types of questions?
No. That is what self-awareness is not, in fact, though it would be nice if it did activate with certain situations, and did not require our specific attention -- then maybe there would be a technique that will actually work on its own!Quote:
It's like a critical considerate state of mind that activates with certain situations?
Obviously, there are none, naturally. It sure would be nice if there were, though!Quote:
What situations? What situations in a dream might trigger them? I assume a lot of these situations in a dream happen unconsciously, and triggers our lucidity automatically?
tl;dr: Self-awareness is not a technique, and the RRC is not a trigger. Given that the RRC was created to assist in WILD, where waking-life self-awareness is assumed to be present throughout, the RRC is obviously doing something other than triggering self-awareness. I suggest you reread my last post (and maybe some of the other stuff on this thread) with that in mind, or rather without seeking techniques that trigger things, but simply understanding that self-awareness equals lucidity, and to have it on hand negates any need for techniques or triggers.
I hope this time this was clear; I'm not sure how else I can say it...
Wow those are some really meaty recent posts Sageous, thanks for those!
I think I "get" the RRC. My question is: let's say one is reasonably regular with the RRC: say, 10 spread throughout the day, every day. And let's say one does them properly. Then approximately how long should it take for there to be an increased sense of self-awareness in dreams? To the point where it kicks in and lucidity becomes more and more frequent? A year? 2? 5? 10? Say to get to a reasonably high percentage (say 50% or higher) that on nights where one wants to LD, one can.
I feel that I have become *much* more self-aware in life over the last 9.5 months. I rarely stumble around in pure zombie mode, and on the occasions where I do, I usually catch myself pretty quickly and bring back my self-awareness. In fact, at those "zombie recovery" times I use the RRC as the way to bring the self-awareness back.
I go back and forth on whether using a timer device for doing RRC is beneficial or not. I will certainly end up doing more RRCs throughout the day if I use a timer, but on the other hand, I wonder if there isn't some very beneficial upside from waiting until I'm "feeling the need" to do the RRC?
Thanks for any thoughts on this...
Hey, I thought you said you "got" the RRC? If you had, you would know that I could not have an answer to that question! ;)
Seriously, though, I have a feeling that if you are having 10 moments of reals self-awareness every day, I would imagine that would be reflected in your dreams pretty quickly -- like, a matter of weeks or months, certainly not years. You might already have found your LD's a bit easier to enter and maintain, FryingMan, but just haven't quite registered the change.
Contrary to the general tone of these forums (i.e., "LD count" fields) LD'ing is not a numbers game. But it is an awareness game. Keep up your RRC practice, develop a strong relationship with your sense of self, and you will likely see an increase in the quality and volume of your LD's, eventually, but the funny thing is by then you won't really care how fast or often you can LD. Strange world.
I would bet you already can LD on the nights when you really want to. The real question is what defines "really want to?" Sure, you feel like you really want to all the time, but are you timing your attempts properly every night? Are you avoiding REM/focus blockers like too much alcohol or not enough sleep every night? Are you honestly doing mental prep every night, including tending to the other fundamentals, namely memory and expectation/intention? Now reverse all those questions, and ask yourself if you really failed to have LD's after properly, completely preparing yourself.Quote:
Say to get to a reasonably high percentage (say 50% or higher) that on nights where one wants to LD, one can.
One key facet of excellent self-awareness is that you come to terms with the rest of the stuff that must be done to successfully LD, and you do them rather than make excuses or figure you can get away with one more drink, or think about tomorrow's problems during a WILD dive.
Self-awareness is the key to all this, but there still must be a fully functioning lock into which that key can be inserted and turned. Someday that key will become powerful enough that the rest of the mechanism becomes very, very easy to turn (that's the "You're years away" part), but in the meantime you must work that lock in concert with the key. Awful metaphor, maybe, but I'm tired today!
Now there is good name for the RRC: Zombie Recovery Device -- to be used not just to prepare for LD'ing but to actually help get back to your life in general. Cool!Quote:
I feel that I have become *much* more self-aware in life over the last 9.5 months. I rarely stumble around in pure zombie mode, and on the occasions where I do, I usually catch myself pretty quickly and bring back my self-awareness. In fact, at those "zombie recovery" times I use the RRC as the way to bring the self-awareness back.
It is also excellent that you have found a way to lure self-awareness into your daily life, FryingMan... feels good, doesn't it? Just imagine what it'll feel like in 30 or 40 years!
I wouldn't use a timer. Doing so risks forcing the RRC's, and making their performance a rote activity, thus negating any chance of them working. Stick to doing them when you remember to do so, or at most limit "alarms" to some visual or tactile clue, like a rubber band on your wrist (I personally have bits of purple paper hanging in spots all over my house -- when I see one, or rather care to notice one, I remember to RRC).Quote:
I go back and forth on whether using a timer device for doing RRC is beneficial or not. I will certainly end up doing more RRCs throughout the day if I use a timer, but on the other hand, I wonder if there isn't some very beneficial upside from waiting until I'm "feeling the need" to do the RRC?
I hope that helped or even made sense; I'm feeling a bit half-assed today, so it might not have. Let me know if it didn't, and I'll try again.
Hi Sageous,
I’m a bit confused about 2 things:
1. You say that if you practice RCs and RRCs properly during the day, you may not even need them in the dream. Why is this exactly? Is it because when you do them regularly, you develop some kind of ‘mindset’ that helps with lucidity? I understand that expectation and having LDing on your mind plays a part, as you said, but I’m not really sure why it is that you can often become lucid without ever needing them in dreams (particularly RCs).
2. You say that self-awareness helps with lucidity because it helps you to realize that you are connected with your (dream) world and that it is “you” or a creation of you. I’m not sure I understand this, or why exactly this helps you with lucidity (if this mindset begins to accompany you in your dreams)….
For example: I had a very vivid NLD once where I was walking around my house. What was unique about this dream was that I fully knew where I was (minutes ago), I was thinking about what I was going to do later, I even had a full sense of what time and day it was! It genuinely felt as if I was awake and just going about a regular day! The only thing I didn’t know, was that I was dreaming! But the thing is, I’m not sure how being highly self-aware would’ve helped to realize I was dreaming that time. Or if I had even taken a moment to do an RRC, I probably still wouldn’t have thought it was a dream. So I’m not really sure how or why it helps to feel 'connected' with your reality.
Thanks in advance :)
The same goes for regular RC's, BTW. I believe the practice of these things has more to do with daytime mental prep than they do with developing a "thing you can do during a NLD to make you lucid."
Why? Well, yes, doing RC's and RRC's with regularity and sincerity will indeed have an effect on your mindset, and that mindset will follow you into the dream. The often overlooked irony of RC's is that you do not use them until after you realize you are dreaming, pretty much in every case. Their real value as a LD'ing tool is to get your head in a place that is prepared to ask the question, "Is this a dream?" or to notice the odd, and then to confirm that you are dreaming. RRC's are similar in that regard, though their value is less on confirming that you are lucid than they are in helping you to more deeply appreciate that lucidity, and get more out of the LD itself -- which is why it's important to practice both.
I don't just say it, Eamo, it's true! ;)Quote:
2. You say that self-awareness helps with lucidity because it helps you to realize that you are connected with your (dream) world and that it is “you” or a creation of you. I’m not sure I understand this, or why exactly this helps you with lucidity (if this mindset begins to accompany you in your dreams)….
Self-awareness equals lucidity, as I've said many times, so anything you do to improve your sense of self will also improve your lucidity. The RRC's specific goal of wondering about your interaction with reality is very helpful toward doing what you said -- elevating your sense that this dream is really you, and therefore, as a part of you, you are limited only by your imagination as to what you can do here. But that is only a part of the whole picture, as self-awareness is how you realize that you are dreaming, the very source of your lucidity. When you are self-aware, you are also able to better access memory, so achieving your goals is much easier as well.
I think I mentioned this myself in one of those very long posts above, but yes, the regular practice of RRC's (& RC's) can lead to non-lucid dreams based on the day residue of doing them, and also on your expectations of maybe doing one in the dream to "make me lucid." It is very possible, and I think fairly common, to have a NLD about being lucid, or about doing RC's or RRC's. And yes indeed, if you have a level of self-awareness on hand when this happens, you will know that you are dreaming, because you will have the sense to actually remember that your actual body is asleep somewhere else, and to recognize the significance of this. Also, if self-aware, you will have the sense to test the "reality" of the RRC you are doing in the dream, and say, "Hey, wait a minute, that is not where I was a few minutes ago, because I'm in bed asleep; this is a dream!" Also, the reason you must truly wonder about the answers to those questions in a RRC, to not just state where you were, where you are, and where you will be, is because it helps develop that mindset that understands where you really are right now.Quote:
For example: I had a very vivid NLD once where I was walking around my house. What was unique about this dream was that I fully knew where I was (minutes ago), I was thinking about what I was going to do later, I even had a full sense of what time and day it was! It genuinely felt as if I was awake and just going about a regular day! The only thing I didn’t know, was that I was dreaming! But the thing is, I’m not sure how being highly self-aware would’ve helped to realize I was dreaming that time. Or if I had even taken a moment to do an RRC, I probably still wouldn’t have thought it was a dream. So I’m not really sure how or why it helps to feel 'connected' with your reality.
I know that sounds simplistic, but it is that simple, Eamo. Self-awareness is a solid connection to your "actual" state of being, and if you are making that connection in a dream, you will have no trouble recognizing where and who you really are. You will likely still have NLD's about LD'ing, that's pretty much unavoidable -- I still have them myself. But strong self-awareness will allow you to confirm that you are dreaming (or not), simply because you are much more aware of your true place in the moment.
Excellent points, all. And you make a really intriguing point at the start that I'm still digesting (I have long wondered at the effectiveness of the "competition effect" in producing LDs, and wondered about how to recreate that). Your call to honestly self-evaluate sounds a great deal (exactly?) like how I respond to the frequent "I can't lucid dream no matter what I do!" threads, so touché. :sageous:
I'd like to think that I can honestly self-evaluate my LD practice. I already have recognized that I've been neglecting my night practice, but I have not yet perhaps fully honestly acknowledged the consequences of this (LDs hover around 6/month), and have not resolved to really fix it yet.
And I don't want to divert the thread into "FryingMan seeks diagnosis on his lucid dreaming practice" so I'll take that to PM.
Great points Sageous :D!
OK now I get it, really! I've been trying to dig too Mich in technicalities that I've dug my own hole to fall into.
Soooooooo the point is, we want to become more self aware because that leads to being self aware in dream, which means lucid dreams.
Second, RRC isn't a technique, it helps us training being more self aware.
Third, self awareness is not a technique, it IS lucidity. Having a moment of it in a dream equals lucidity.
Finally, the questions used during RRC are only intended to make us have that wondering moment which makes us self aware.
OK now that I got it(I did right?), I'll be doing RRCs with no worries. I hope I do good. What I should do is wonder about me being here effecting my environment and how it affects me, how my thoughts and feelings control and drive me, and how my environment and actions control and drive them.
This will increase my self awareness to a point were it will be hovering with me even if I'm not directly doing a RRC at the moment. Does it become easier and more 'automatic' (without direct conscious effort) with practice? Like, does it become an unconscious thing or does it always require conscious effort, even if that conscious effort was 'automatic' due to practice?
Oh boy I'm so excited, but I'm worried that this wondering I'm having during RRC becomes, well boring, and that I'd start doing it half minded. Kinda like RCs, I can't do them with excitement anymore because they're too much of a chore now.
Thank you very much for your time Sageous! This is truly useful to me.
But why don't all the LDing scientists like Laberge and the others talk about this?
Close enough. It's more that we want to be more familiar with our self-awareness, with our Self, so that we are more comfortable being self-aware in waking-life and in dreams. So yes, if you are more easily self-aware, more comfortable with the condition, then it will likely occur during a dream. And if someday far from now you are often and easily self-aware, LD'ing will be easy, perhaps unavoidable.
Actually, it "technically" is a technique, though the activity is a bit more nebulous than most techniques.Quote:
Second, RRC isn't a technique, it helps us training being more self aware.
Thinking it is not one is fine, however, because maybe it will help it be less tedious, and more real.
Yes, but I would have listed that first. :sageous:Quote:
Third, self awareness is not a technique, it IS lucidity. Having a moment of it in a dream equals lucidity.
Yes.Quote:
Finally, the questions used during RRC are only intended to make us have that wondering moment which makes us self aware.
Not so much "control and drive." Try to wonder more about your interaction with your local reality than your being in thrall to it.Quote:
OK now that I got it(I did right?), I'll be doing RRCs with no worries. I hope I do good. What I should do is wonder about me being here effecting my environment and how it affects me, how my thoughts and feelings control and drive me, and how my environment and actions control and drive them.
If you start thinking about control and drive, then you start being impressed by things much bigger than you (even your emotions, if you go there), and then proceed to diminish the presence of your Self in all this which, come dreamtime, is exactly what you do not want to do (my problem with ADA, BTW): you want to remember in a dream that everything is you, and not some external force controlling or overpowering you (the general feeling in a NLD).
It definitely should eventually become easier, though "automatic" and "self-aware" are probably contradictory terms. So are "self-aware" and "unconscious," for that matter. You will always need some conscious effort to gather self-awareness, but with time that effort will likely not require something like a RRC, but perhaps just a quiet pause, or even a simple decision to be self-aware.Quote:
This will increase my self awareness to a point were it will be hovering with me even if I'm not directly doing a RRC at the moment. Does it become easier and more 'automatic' (without direct conscious effort) with practice? Like, does it become an unconscious thing or does it always require conscious effort, even if that conscious effort was 'automatic' due to practice?
If doing RRC's become boring, you are doing them wrong. Every RRC ought to be something new, and hopefully at least a little interesting. If you find yourself doing a rote program of asking and answering specific questions with no sense of wonder, then stop doing them -- they aren't helping anyway.Quote:
Oh boy I'm so excited, but I'm worried that this wondering I'm having during RRC becomes, well boring, and that I'd start doing it half minded. Kinda like RCs, I can't do them with excitement anymore because they're too much of a chore now.
You also should temper your excitement with patience, Louai. Excitement is a good thing, because it builds expectation and keeps you focused, but it also tends to lead to disappointment. This is especially true with a difficult long-term project like building self-awareness. Give this stuff time. With regular -- sincere! -- RRC's and RC's, you might start seeing some results sometime soon, but those results are incremental and, because of the nature of self-awareness, will likely seem fairly unimpressive (i.e., your LD'ing frequency will improve, but you will be saying "of course there are more of them," instead of "I can't believe how many LD's I'm having now!"). And don't forget all the other stuff, like working on memory and expectation/intention!
Actually they do. If you look carefully, you will see that EWOLD is full of references to self-awareness, and LaBerge goes on about it relentlessly at his dream camps. He might not mention a RRC because he never thought of it, but that's neither here nor there.Quote:
But why don't all the LDing scientists like Laberge and the others talk about this?
I think scientists are reluctant to speak frankly about self-awareness because it is a very unscientific trait. It can't be empirically defined or tested, and there is no self-awareness center in the brain (as far as they know). So they skirt the issue, and focus on techniques (like the RC, and MILD; both LaBerge's) that have more concrete goal on their face* but actually are meant to stir nebulous things like self-awareness and memory.
So yes, Louai, you do seem to get it. Now you just need to hold onto it for a while, patiently.
*LaBerge advertises RC's as a thing you do during the day so that during a NLD you might do one and become lucid, but he understands that that rarely works. He knows that the real value of state testing is to create a routine that brings you closer to understanding your state (aka: self-awareness) more often -- especially after, based on expectation and your MILD work, you think you are dreaming.
Thank you for the great help you gave me! It's a load off my chest, so now I can really build my self awareness without that annoying voice in the back of my head(god I am so critical!).
Now I'll continue my RRC practice. As a note, I get a feeling of "thing is an interesting new thing to be pondering about" with a little pinche of wow with it while doing a RRC, and I defiantly feel more aware of myself, yeah kinda like getting out of the "auto pilot" or "zombie" state.
Now that I got it right, I'll start teaching it to my more advanced students!
And I'll be defiantly patient, a lot! I'm ready to train for LDing for the rest of my life! :D
Thank you again :)
Hi,
I have a quick question about the timing for a WILD.
From what I understand it is best to start a few minutes before you normally would enter REM sleep.
You also recommended not using an alarm, this is not a problem for me because i find myself waking up at night all the time,
but here is my 'missing link': the natural awakenings you have during the night are at the end of a sleep cycle, this means when REM just ended,
so this would be like the worst possible time to start WILDing since I am at the point the furthest away from REM?
I hope you understand my question, maybe I can make it more concrete by adding real times:
I naturally wake up at 5 AM, so this would mean I have been dreaming from something like 4:30 till 5 AM, wouldnt this mean I would want to start wilding at 4:30?
P.S I have not had any succes with WILD so far.
edit: Sorry if this doesnt belong here, i thought i had posted in the Q & A of your course!
Sageous,
For daytime practice, I’ve began to do RCs more frequently and with more stability, however, when I try to include the RRC, things get a bit difficult…
Like with the RC, I would ask questions like, “where was I a few minutes ago? “Where am I now, what am I doing?” “What will I soon be doing?” etc., and I approach it with a mindset of trying to figure out if this is a dream or not.
The thing is, if I try to do a RRC, I find myself asking exactly the same questions, except with a mindset of trying to build self-awareness rather than trying to figure out if this is a dream. Sometimes it gets a bit confusing or muddled as to which one I’m even doing.
So I understand they’re different exercises completely, but the initial questions are same for both, I think. So I had the idea of using the RC as my main daytime practice, but keep the ‘wondering’ part of the RRC as something to do generally or whenever I think of it. Maybe this isn’t a good plan, but I’m not really sure how to formulate some kind of strategy that includes both without confusion. Would you have any sort of advice? Also, don’t RCs build self-awareness as well, and help with the mental prep required? But maybe just not to the same extent as the RRC…
Thanks for your help.
^^ I have a question for you, Eamo: Why are your RC's so complicated? A simple, sincere, check of your state should be all they entail. Specifically, just ask yourself "Is this a dream?" and then do your physical RC (i.e., check a clock, pinch your nose). Why ask the three "RRC" questions as well?
In asking those three questions you seem to be doing more of a RRC than a RC, so I can understand your confusion. I suggest that you go back to practicing a regular RC, and then the RRC will not seem redundant.
Your plan -- to use regular RC as daytime practice, with RRC's when remembered -- sounds fine, but again I suggest that you actually just do RC's without the questions.
Finally, RC's absolutely help with mental prep, and may even nudge your self-awareness along... but their purpose is to simply help you to confirm your state (dreaming or not); they are an excellent tool; so you might try not to complicate them.
I must also ask: Is someone teaching RC's with those three questions? If they are, I think they might be a little confused.
If you're referring to the questions about where you've been, where you are, etc... that's a pretty common RC that's listed on internet tutorials (perhaps even on DV somewhere, I can't remember.) Specifically, it usually says to try to remember where you were an hour ago, and see if there are gaps in your memory.
I don't do this very often, but it has actually been helpful at times when something about the situation just doesn't seem right. I've questioned where I am / who I'm with, and found that DCs with roles of my family/friends were not actually people I knew. But I think that's really the only situation where this is helpful. And your mind can easily make up backstories to explain that stuff away, anyway.
I've seen the terms "memory RC" and "mental RC" described before. I think the point is to engage the mind in seriously questioning one's state rather than making a quick physical gesture mindlessly and moving on.
Questions like "is this a dream?" can be answered with a quick, unthinking "no" (or even an unthinking "yes" and going on non-lucid!), while a question like "Why do I think I'm awake?" requires a more thorough engagement that isn't so easily dismissed by a monosyllabic answer.
^^ I think RC's are supposed to involve monosyllabic -- yes or no -- answers. You can certainly test your state sincerely and deeply without extensive questioning. The beauty of a state test lies in its simplicity: load the question, "Is this a dream?" and then answer that question with a simple test that will confirm that this is a dream, or reality. Asking further questions, like "Why do I think I'm awake?" steps well beyond the RC's purpose, and might complicate you right out of a successful RC.
I cannot argue with processes like "memory RC" or "mental RC," obviously, because they are very similar to my own RRC concept. But doing more, like a RRC, does not supercede the need for RC's; you still must do basic RC's to test your state, and have a simple, call it monosyllabic if you will, answer quickly and clearly available.
You still must be sincere when doing a RC, but there is no need to incorporate the RRC concept into your RC's. I can certainly argue for taking RRC moments and asking those questions, but I will always argue it assuming that RC's are a separate subject and will be done as well.
Sageous,
I probably was putting too much into them. During a RC, I would ask those memory questions, but I would also look around for any hint that this may be a dream environment, like looking to see if objects change location or disappear (I thought this would be a good one as it happens a lot in my dreams). I would then go further with the questioning by asking what day it is, what time it is etc., and only then would I finish with some physical checks like looking at my hands or reading text etc……
I suppose it is a lot, but I was under the impression that reality checks were meant to be done in this way -- mindfully taking every aspect of your reality into account, and questioning things extensively. I thought it was important as it would instill within your RC’s more awareness and a better questioning mindset, which if performed in a dream, would be a lot more effective, and also because it might also increase your skills of being able to decipher which state you’re actually in, hence my rationale for including so much (I’ve actually missed many lucids from questioning things too narrowly). But you’re right, it’s definitely worth simplifying a bit (or a lot ;)).
So as for the RRC, I try to do it as well, just not as much as RC’s. But I’m still a bit unsure about some of the parts of it:
Firstly, what is the reason for asking the memory questions, in an attempt to increase your self-awareness? I thought self-awareness was about considering the effect you have on things and the effects things have on you. But why does this entail knowing where you just were and where you’ll soon be etc.?
Also, when considering your interaction, does it have to be the environment of now, or can it be things from other times -- like thinking about how your past actions have had effects on past events? Sometimes there isn’t a lot to work with in the ‘now’.
Also, I’m not really certain about what it means to consider things in your ‘immediate environment’, I mean, at times when there are no people around, do you consider how you affect the ‘things’ in your environment? Like objects etc. I’m not really sure what it involves.
Finally, I don’t really understand the part about considering the effects things have on you. Does this mean you should assess your reactions to things that are happening around you or things people say etc. even if it’s not really directed at you?
Thanks in advance. :)
Yes, that probably is a bit much for a RC; also, you might consider doing a physical check first now and then.
Though I can understand how all those things could be added to RC's by well-meaning people, that is not the way they were originally intended to be done. They really were meant to be very simple critical state tests that certainly should have been done thoughtfully but also quickly, and in a manner where clear perceptual results could confirm that you are dreaming or awake (like looking at a clock twice), answering the singular question, "Is this a dream?"Quote:
I suppose it is a lot, but I was under the impression that reality checks were meant to be done in this way -- mindfully taking every aspect of your reality into account, and questioning things extensively. I thought it was important as it would instill within your RC’s more awareness and a better questioning mindset, which if performed in a dream, would be a lot more effective, and also because it might also increase your skills of being able to decipher which state you’re actually in, hence my rationale for including so much (I’ve actually missed many lucids from questioning things too narrowly). But you’re right, it’s definitely worth simplifying a bit (or a lot ;)).
This simplicity was meant to make them something you could take with you wherever you went; even in your dreams. All that other stuff you mention can be important -- hence my RRC, for instance -- and it would certainly help to bring that questioning mindset into your dream (and daytime work). But I suggest, again, that you do so in addition to a regular RC, instead of diluting your RC time with many other things, even if those things are important.
Aside from the fact that memory is one of the fundamentals, and ought to be exercised as well:Quote:
So as for the RRC... I’m still a bit unsure about some of the parts of it:
Firstly, what is the reason for asking the memory questions, in an attempt to increase your self-awareness? I thought self-awareness was about considering the effect you have on things and the effects things have on you. But why does this entail knowing where you just were and where you’ll soon be etc.?
RRC's are actually very much "here & now" events (just like dreams), and are meant to help establish your position in that here & now. The way they establish it is by having you frame your current moment with where you just were, where you are, and where you will be. So the RRC isn't meant so much to test your memory as to employ it to help set up the here & now moment in which you wonder about your interaction with local reality.
Fun fact, though: if you happen to manage a RRC during a dream, that step of remembering where you were a few minutes ago might be most helpful because, if lucid, you will remember that you were just asleep in bed... that can be most helpful on its own, aside from all the non-dualistic "this world is all me" stuff that a RRC performed during a LD offers.
Because you are creating a "here & now" moment, it really is a good idea to work with the "now," rather than go too far into your past. Sure, go back an hour or two if you must (or care to), but try to keep everything as present as possible. Also, if you wonder deeply enough, you ought to be able to find some interaction going on with your local reality whenever you look -- it is always there, in some form.Quote:
Also, when considering your interaction, does it have to be the environment of now, or can it be things from other times -- like thinking about how your past actions have had effects on past events? Sometimes there isn’t a lot to work with in the ‘now’.
I think I press the "immediate environment" idea because when I first introduced this I found many people wondering about their interaction with everything -- the whole damn universe, in a couple of cases -- and this can have a negative effect on your self-awareness by belittling it in the face of such bigness. Your local reality is literally that: the space, people, and, yes, objects directly in your vicinity that your presence influences, and that are influenced by your presence. It really is that simple. The reason I emphasize "wondering" so much is because, with enough wondering, you will always find some interaction with reality, no matter how empty your current hour may be.Quote:
Also, I’m not really certain about what it means to consider things in your ‘immediate environment’, I mean, at times when there are no people around, do you consider how you affect the ‘things’ in your environment? Like objects etc. I’m not really sure what it involves.
Here's a helpful hint, though: if you find yourself doing RRC's at a time when you are doing nothing, and nobody is around, try doing them during more active moments of your day; I've found it most interesting to do one during a conversation, or even an argument!
Not your reactions so much as your interaction. Everything has an effect on you, even if you didn't notice; indeed, a RRC can help show you sometimes how much effected you that you failed to notice or react to. Instead of assessing what you did or said, consider the results of what you did or said. And if something is not directed at you it still happened, still rippled your reality a bit, so there may still be something to wonder about.Quote:
Finally, I don’t really understand the part about considering the effects things have on you. Does this mean you should assess your reactions to things that are happening around you or things people say etc. even if it’s not really directed at you?
The primary purpose of the RRC is to help you become aware of your presence in reality, and ultimately to help you understand your presence and influence in your dream reality. Sometimes that presence can be fairly dull or uneventful, even in a dream, but that does not mean there is no presence, no interaction; it just means you might need to look a bit deeper to identify it.
@ Eamo; If I may chip-in and break my long lurking
You may have seen some LDers state that they are lucid before they even RC (which is the confirmation before you leap out of that window). This happens because their self-awareness "baseline" has become higher than their prospective memory which would have otherwise lead them to carry out a habitual RC to become lucid (or not, as is more likely). The LD resulting from self awareness is more desirable because it involves bringing more awareness in to the LD in the first place, and also more memory capabilities, which leads to longer, more stable and clearer LDs - and you'll remember your tasks. You won't find yourself running through your complex RRC routine in dream, because you'll already be aware, because you've already put that work in in your waking life.
RRC is designed to engender this kind of self awareness, as such it can be seen as a separate mechanism from RC (which is a skill you only need to do once to learn), RRC is closer to dream yoga in its action. You don't become lucid through meditation by sitting down to meditate in dream, it's a practice done IWL that increases the capacity for self awareness, likewise RRC.
Sageous,
I understand the overall idea of the fundamentals, but I’m not fully sure about how they act in a synergistic way to cause lucid dreams: would this be more or less correct?:
If you practice RC’s and RRC’s throughout the day, what you are really doing is ‘paying attention’ regularly throughout the day in a way you wouldn’t normally do. So this creates a kind of lucid mindset, I think -- and when this begins to take place in your dreams, it will allow you a better opportunity to switch self-awareness and memory on in a place where they’re normally absent -- causing lucidity.
So by doing things like RRC’s and RC’s throughout the day, this is catering for the self-awareness and memory points of the triangle. Expectation/intention then is simply intending to become lucid and thinking about your lucid goals (the final point). This probably gives your subconscious something to bind your daytime work with the dream state.
So by having all these things in place, you would actually be fulfilling all the requirements of the fundamentals? If so it really makes sense how DILD is not a technique; it’s most probably the result of daytime work (in fact I’m sure it is ;)), the only exception would be MILD.
So I’m thinking that if you wanted to increase your LD frequency, you would have to work on increasing each aspect of the fundamentals in their own right? Perhaps by increasing the frequency or intensity of RC’s or RRC’s, and having a stronger intention to become lucid. So basically just trying to boost these three things, aside from anything else?
Sorry if anything here sounds similar to some of my previous questions on the thread :roll:, but I’m just trying to understand fully how the fundamentals ‘combine’ to cause lucid dreams, or to understand them as a ‘practice’ as techniques are not that important.
Thanks! :)
^^ Well, Eamo, you seem to have a clear understanding of what I'm going for here; you probably summed it all up better than I could!
I ought to just thank you and shut up, but of course I can't leave well enough alone, so here are a couple more thoughts:
Yes, pretty much.
I think however that the mindset you will develop is a bit more fluid. There will be less opportunity to switch on self-awareness and memory to cause lucidity as there will be a greater tendency on your part to simply be self-aware, and for that tendency to both welcome lucidity and to better work with your presence in the dream, particularly in the memory department.
So, in effect, all this extra paying attention will indeed help you to be better able to pay attention in a dream -- just like you said, only with less mechanical switching (remember that this whole fundamentals concept is more of a mindset establishment than a specific technique).
Yes.Quote:
So by doing things like RRC’s and RC’s throughout the day, this is catering for the self-awareness and memory points of the triangle. Expectation/intention then is simply intending to become lucid and thinking about your lucid goals (the final point). This probably gives your subconscious something to bind your daytime work with the dream state.
There's probably a lot more expectation-building going on unconsciously as you do all the day work, but you certainly have the idea.
Yes.Quote:
So by having all these things in place, you would actually be fulfilling all the requirements of the fundamentals? If so it really makes sense how DILD is not a technique; it’s most probably the result of daytime work (in fact I’m sure it is ;)), the only exception would be MILD.
And yes, DILD, like WILD, is not a technique, but a term for the transition of daytime consciousness into a dream. MILD is indeed the only "classic" ILD that is actually a technique. This I think is a foundational point to the general difficulty people have with WILD and DILD: They've been led to believe they are techniques, so if you "do" a WILD you'll be lucid... but by the time the WILD or DILD happens, they've already needed to have "done" the work, and confusion ensues.
Yes, but:Quote:
So I’m thinking that if you wanted to increase your LD frequency, you would have to work on increasing each aspect of the fundamentals in their own right? Perhaps by increasing the frequency or intensity of RC’s or RRC’s, and having a stronger intention to become lucid. So basically just trying to boost these three things, aside from anything else?
I would say, again, that you should be looking for a more fluid development of these three things to a point where they exist comfortably in your psyche rather than "increasing aspects" or boosting them individually. But this could just be semantics or the nature of your point of view, so how you put it, and understand it, is probably fine.
Thanks again for the post and the summary, Eamo. I can be quite confusing, conflicting, and downright hazy sometimes, and it is most gratifying to know that someone is actually getting it!
:cheers:
I'd be interested, Sageous :sageous:, in your take on this dream scenario I had the other night.
In short, some guy in a car practically side-swipes me, a pedestrian, I get angry and slap his car as it goes by.
The driver gets mad at me, stops, gets out of his car, and pursues me (I think to fight).
I get scared, evade him, and run away.
So on the surface, I was "affecting" my "local reality", and by my reaction I caused a reaction in a DC, "affecting" him.
The angry DC then came at me, and "affected me" by my becoming scared and running away.
Since it was a non-lucid dream I thought this situation was "real."
The RRC, to build self-awareness, is founded on this consideration of affecting one's "local reality." But in a dream, it seems to be "reality" and DCs can react just like a waking person would, and you to them!
So, where in there would a heightened self-awareness kick in to result in lucidity? I mean, on the surface, I was "affecting others" and those others were in turn responding to me and "affecting me."
But obviously, since it was a dream, there was only me, but it didn't feel like only me, it felt like a waking life scenario with independent actors.
Would a heightened self-awareness result in me questioning my motives in hitting the car, and instead of running away, attempting to either apologize or engage with the angry DC? And would I judge by his reaction to my own reaction whether or not this would be a dream?
Or would it be a more subtle/elusive less intellectual "feeling" that this seems to be a dream?
I realize that the RRC is not meant to be an "in dream" state check. But I started thinking about this action/reaction/reaction sequence and got confused since it seems that this happens in dreams as well as in waking life, and wondered about the implications, if any, on the RRC.
Would the difference be that a developed self-awareness would bring mental attention to the action/reaction sequence, while undeveloped self-awareness just lets it occur without reflection? I can see that.
But what I'm less clear about is just how the self-awareness reaches the conclusion that "this is all from me" (the dream) vs. "this is from outside of me" (waking).
^^ Hmm...
I guess that is correct logically, but you are omitting the point that the entire dream is your local reality, while at the same time it is all a representation of you. So no, during a NLD, you are not affecting your local reality, nor it, you; it is all happening at once, in a single schema. Thinking it was real is a symptom of NLD's, and there is no reality going on at all (of course, that doesn't mean it won't sure seem real).
The RRC is meant to give you a vehicle for understanding that, in a dream there is no interaction with an outside reality; it is all you. The wondering you are doing during a RRC in waking life will translate to realization in a dream that there really is no interaction, nothing existed a few minutes ago in this reality, and what you do in the next five minutes is infinitely variable and dependent only on your imagination and not on any given reality -- because you know that all of this is you, here & now. Now, this realization can only come after you know you are dreaming (aka, you are lucid), so the RRC really is not meant to be a technique for inducing lucidity from a NLD. I suppose, though, that, like the RC, it could have the mechanical side-effect of inducing LD's because it is causing you to look around and perhaps to remember, but that, just like the original RC, was not its purpose.Quote:
The RRC, to build self-awareness, is founded on this consideration of affecting one's "local reality." But in a dream, it seems to be "reality" and DCs can react just like a waking person would, and you to them!
Be reminded also that I introduced the RRC as part a tool for WILD, and WILD by its nature means that you never lose lucidity throughout the dive; why would you need it (the RRC) to induce anything?
Nowhere. As I just said, with WILD lucidity is "kicked in" from the get-go. The RRC simply helps you to keep that lucidity strong by helping you to understand the nature of the dream as it forms around you, no matter how real, complex, or "not of you" it appears to be. It is not meant to create lucidity; only to refine and maintain it.Quote:
So, where in there would a heightened self-awareness kick in to result in lucidity? I mean, on the surface, I was "affecting others" and those others were in turn responding to me and "affecting me."
As it would. But if you were doing a successful WILD, you would not be in a NLD, so you would have a conscious foundation for understanding that this is not a waking-life scenario with independent actors. The difference is significant, and may be the reason we all attempt WILD's in the first place.Quote:
But obviously, since it was a dream, there was only me, but it didn't feel like only me, it felt like a waking life scenario with independent actors.
It sure would, in waking-life as well!Quote:
Would a heightened self-awareness result in me questioning my motives in hitting the car, and instead of running away, attempting to either apologize or engage with the angry DC?
Probably not, because any reaction DC-you or he makes during a NLD will seem just fine, but (again) I suppose that if you did a RRC during a NLD, there is a chance that you might find enough inconsistencies (i.e., a few minutes ago you were in bed, and not on this street) to become lucid, but you can also count on your dreaming mind to provide a full complement of non-lucid answers to your questions.Quote:
And would I judge by his reaction to my own reaction whether or not this would be a dream?
Yes, that sounds good, though I would use emotional or visceral in place of intellectual.Quote:
Or would it be a more subtle/elusive less intellectual "feeling" that this seems to be a dream?
It has no implication on the RRC, because the whole point of the RRC was to allow you a moment to step away from the action and wonder about it. and its implications. When you do this during a dream, lucidly, the implications are very different than they are in waking life.Quote:
I realize that the RRC is not meant to be an "in dream" state check. But I started thinking about this action/reaction/reaction sequence and got confused since it seems that this happens in dreams as well as in waking life, and wondered about the implications, if any, on the RRC.
Sure.Quote:
Would the difference be that a developed self-awareness would bring mental attention to the action/reaction sequence, while undeveloped self-awareness just lets it occur without reflection? I can see that.
Well, again, that is the point of the RRC, and the point of doing it when you are already lucid. When you are self-aware in a dream, the conclusion that "this is all from me" is self-evident, just as "I am but a participant in a greater reality" is self-evident during an RRC in waking-life.Quote:
But what I'm less clear about is just how the self-awareness reaches the conclusion that "this is all from me" (the dream) vs. "this is from outside of me" (waking).
tl;dr: The RRC was meant to be a self-awareness enhancing exercise, and not a self-awareness inducing exercise. Hence its introduction in a WILD class, because with WILD you theoretically never lose self-awareness. And though a RRC done non-lucidly during a NLD might induce lucidity just through expectation or accident, that is not its purpose.
I hope this made some sense, FryingMan, and advance apologies for the massive parsing!
I'm much less happy with my post several hours after writing it, I think it's pretty confused, so sorry about that. Thanks for trying to make sense of it.
I guess I'm trying to figure out DILDs (not WILDs) brought about specifically through a powerful self-awareness built from waking life RRCs. Are they experienced as that sudden "flash" of understanding that this is a dream, or a more conscious process involving the events of the dream?~
^^ Is there something I'm missing here, FryingMan?
From my perspective, RRC's would be a pretty lousy tool for inducing DILD's. I suppose if you included them in your day work and were practicing MILD, the added sense of self they offer during that "RRC moment" might make them helpful. You could do what's been done to RC's and hope that constant repetition of RRC's might cause you to do one by rote during a NLD; after all, though that was not its intent, that asking about where you were a few minutes ago could remind you that you were really asleep in bed (did I already say that up above?)... of course, as with RC's, doing a RRC when not lucid could result in a false lucid about completing a RRC and becoming lucid. You might as well just do MILD, and save the RRC for after you know you're dreaming, just to soldify things.
If you are using RRC's to build a powerful, consistent sense of self during waking life then, perhaps ironically, you will not need a RRC during a NLD, as the seeds of lucidity were already sewn, because you may have already dragged enough self-awareness (and expectation) into the dream with you to allow you to be open to the idea that this might be a dream.... no flashes, no stimulus/response, just knowledge. You could certainly do a RRC after you become lucid in a DILD, which I highly recommend, because doing so will help solidify your presense in the dream. So, to me, RRC's are neither about a flash of lucidity or a conscious process involving the events of a dream, but a conscious pause after lucidity is established to better understand your state.
So, once again, in my mind RRC's are a lousy technique for inducing LD's; however, should you devise a way to make them work as a technique, then Let me know -- or, better yet, post a new tutorial on the technique. Perhaps I misunderstood you, FryingMan, but I really never intended RRC's to be a LD induction technique -- they are not a shortcut around the fundamentals.
I'm poorly communicating here -- I'm not talking about doing RRCs in dream to produce DILDs, and never have been (despite the confusing post to start this off with). I'm talking about how you say that with a highly developed self awareness, created through doing (for example) RRCs in waking life, lucidity, including DILDs, will come easily, naturally, in dreams, because you will *just know* that you're dreaming. "The key will become strong enough to move the lock" sort of thing. And I was wondering what that experience felt like in a dream.
My SC may have answered my own question: I had a fabulous vivid DILD just now, where my SC created a false memory backstory that I was looking at a photograph, and I found then that I turned around and I had somehow entered 'inside' the photograph, looking at my former home from across the street, and while not knowing how I got there, I just knew I was dreaming. Didn't even do a nose plug to confirm, I just *knew*, it was so obvious. I don't know how I knew: an instantaneous understanding coming from memory (I know I didn't live there any more [real memory], and the details were not quite right [real memory], and I 'knew' I had been looking at a photograph just the moment before ['false memory'], and entering live into a photograph is impossible [real memory]) and self-awareness?
Then yes, you were communicating poorly! :sageous:
Yes, if you have highly developed -- or even fairly well-developed -- your self-awareness, I believe that you will indeed have very little trouble with LD'ing. Lucidity will come much easier, regardless of how you get there (DILD or WILD). It won't be natural, though, and can never be; you will always need to make some conscious effort to recognize you are dreaming -- LD'ing is not a natural event. If anything, being awake while asleep is anathema to nature, and that is what makes it so difficult (that term, "natural," seems to be getting thrown about quite a bit these days, and it is getting a bit disturbing).
Now that I understand what you're asking, and that we are actually speaking from the same page: The "feeling that you are dreaming, if you are strongly self-aware, is for me one of simple understanding; a mild shift, really, because, just like waking life, you really are still using the same consciousness you were just using during the NLD. It's just that now your self-aware consciousness has a clearer reference point from which to work. It's sort of an "Oh, duh. This is a dream" moment than it is an "Ah -ha!" moment, I think, which is not a bad thing at all, because it guarantees you will remain calm as you set about the work of imagination and remembering.
So, the more self-aware you are, the less exciting the moment of lucidity becomes...but that is only the first moment; the excitement that follows is up to you, and your strong self-awareness will only amplify that!
See? All that work can pay off!Quote:
My SC may have answered my own question: I had a fabulous vivid DILD just now, where my SC created a false memory backstory that I was looking at a photograph, and I found then that I turned around and I had somehow entered 'inside' the photograph, looking at my former home from across the street, and while not knowing how I got there, I just knew I was dreaming. Didn't even do a nose plug to confirm, I just *knew*, it was so obvious. I don't know how I knew: an instantaneous understanding coming from memory (I know I didn't live there any more [real memory], and the details were not quite right [real memory], and I 'knew' I had been looking at a photograph just the moment before ['false memory'], and entering live into a photograph is impossible [real memory]) and self-awareness?
Yes, of course the RRC is a technique for developing self-awareness, and that self-awareness is certainly critical in successful LD'ing, be it WILD or DILD. For that matter, it helps with memory and, to a much smaller extent, expectation/intention as well. In my opinion it is a fine technique, and ought to be part of everybody's daytime practice, whether they are focused on WILD or DILD.
But it was never meant to be a rote routine that, if you repeat enough times in waking life, you might repeat it in a dream an "become" lucid, all without any input of self-awareness, memory, or expectation/intention. There really are no such techniques, and I had not meant to leave that impression.
So: RRC's are a self-awareness technique; RRC's are not a freestanding LD-induction technique. Again, I hope during my zeal to communicate the idea that I was not misleading or too hyperbolic. If I was, I apologize, but am relieved that the void created by that dying a little might now be filled in with the understanding of the real purpose and value of RRC's!
Hi Sageous :)
I was wondering that since self awareness is lucidity itself in lucid dreaming, and self awareness can be heightened, then the enhancement of lucidity via experience (getting better at staying lucid inside a LD for example) is enhancing self awareness itself. So, since the common LDer enhances his self awareness via LD experience only, adding self awareness exercises to the daily routine will enhance LD lucidity quicker.
If this is true, can we use this to reference how exactly to train our self awareness during daily life? In other words, can we see what actually improves in LDs with more experience, and focus on those during daily self awareness training? For example how we become better at understanding that we have full influence in LDs(and so in waking life get used to the idea that we have a level of influence on our local reality)?
It's just that if this is true, we would have a large store of solid examples to guide us in training our self awareness during waking life, this store being our own LDs.
^^ Sure.
That is all true and, I think, will become self-evident with continued LD'ing experience.
Not only will your LD'ing experience enable you to fine-tune your daytime work, not only by enhancing your comprehension of why you are doing the day work at all, but also perhaps to help you tweak your work by pointing out where your efforts are lacking (i.e., your LD's might lack, say, clarity, because your daytime work omits a moment of real reflection about your current position in local reality).
There is no substitute for experience, and no shortcut or technique that can equal its value. The trick, of course, is gaining that experience. Daytime work, especially work that empowers self-awareness, memory, and expectation/intention, is a helpful bridge to the actual LD's that will form the real basis for training.
So yes, once you start racking up the miles in LucidLand, you will find that your knowledge of the territory will certainly help you to redefine the map (aka, daytime work).
I'm very glad to hear that!
In fact, one of the things I'm struggling with is to last more than a few minutes inside a LD. I'm pretty sure that, ironically, fear of losing lucidity or premature awakening are responsible for this.
Mainly I use reflection intention to treat this, as I practice during it to stay calm once lucid and to take a moment to stabilize and go over through the fact that this is a dream before starting my goal persuit. This is an integration I add to the R-I ( the part were I pretend, or visualize, that I am dreaming right now).
Is this right, or would you recommend a different, or extra, daytime practice for this case?
Ok so last night I was WILDing, and I did everything right until I got into the dream transition part. I laid there, my body fell asleep and I started seeing my dreams forming. Now heres the problem, every time I get to that transition of entering the dream, I get really excited and wake up. Is there any way I can stop this? Or will only mere focus and persistence fix this one?
^^ Well, you can always stop getting excited! ;)
That's not as snarky an answer as it sounds: the excitement that you feel now is unavoidable, and yes, it will likely inspire your reticular system to wake you up; but it is not a permanent condition. With practice, you will become more accustomed to the moment of transition as it occurs, and you very likely will become less excited and more able to see yourself through the transition.
In the meantime, you might spend some time thinking about transitions during the day; run through how you felt, and why. Try to make the concept, if not the feeling, of the transition something with which you are very familiar. Try to get your mind in a place that welcomes the transition, but is not impressed by it. Additionally, you can remind yourself -- during the day and throughout your WILD dive-- that this transition is something your brain and body do every night, and you only happen to be witnessing it. And, above all, always keep as your number one priority the coming dream itself. Stay focused on the dream, and the transition might become less important.
So yeah, mere focus and persistence -- and patience -- will indeed fix this. With enough sincere attempts, the transition will become famliar enough to you that there will be no call for excitement.
I think I got a grip on the concept of memory, intention and self awareness.
So, becoming lucid is:
1) Using intentions with DSs.
2) Using the time based Prospective memory.
3) We cultivate the idea that we might be dreaming at any given time, and this allows us next time we fall in doubt after seeing a weird thing to recognize that the explanation is that we are dreaming, and even if we didn't realize this, the gained self awareness from this doubt increases our prospective memory activity (because prefrontal cortex activity would have increased) thus allowing a bigger chance for a MILD.
4) Strong emotions, that might also be used as DSs, cause us to become more self aware inside the dream, increasing prefrontal cortex activity, and thus increasing the prospective memory activity allowing for a bigger chance for MILD.
4) Mere incubation due to thinking about LDing during the day can grant one.
5) Doing RCs during the day hoping that one would get incubated inside a dream tonight.
6) WILD
Hope I got it right this time :)
^^ Well, I suppose becoming lucid could, and often does, incorporate those things. Funny thing is, aside maybe from the second #4, and of course WILD, which is more a result of all these things than it is a function of becoming lucid in itself, not one of the things you mentioned are things I talked about on this thread. Are you testing me?
For instance:
1. I'm pretty sure that, aside perhaps from as part as a specific answer, I never mention dream signs here. My reason for that is personal, in that a dream sign has never, even once, made me lucid. Aside from that, I think that counting on something to recur, and then hoping that you wil recognize it, remember that it is a dream sign, and then become lucid is a lot to ask. Cultivating dream signs are a fine vehicle for some, I think, and if your dream signs recur enough that you can attach intention to them that's great; go for it. But in general I tend to shy away from handy triggers like this; I'd rather stick to the fundamentals!.
2. That's just fine as well, but you might have noticed that I rarely talk about techniques here (except I suppose to question them), and, unless perhaps I was answering a question, I'm pretty sure I've never mentioned prospective memory here, much less using time-based prospective memory. I would never mention that, by the way, because it is both difficult to do an tends to cloud your mind with schedules and arcane targets. Prospective memory is a great tool for LD'ing, especially with MILD, but trying to "time-base" it is a tall order because most of our minds make lousy alarm clocks. Better to allow your prospective memory to trigger awareness based on intentions, day residue, or as a result perhaps of mantra-based recall. Again, if you can succeed with time-based prospective memory cues, that's great, but it is not something I would recommend.
3. I think you will find that I have never recommended ever cultivating the " the idea that we might be dreaming at any given time," and likely never will. I have never thought it a good idea to assume, while awake, that this might be a dream. This is mainly because, unless you've got a screw loose, you will always know during the day that you are awake and that this is not a dream, regardless of what you might tell yourself. Keep in mind that, when done properly, a state test (RC) is done with the assumption that you are awake, and you are asking if this is a dream, and not the other way around; the actual physical test (i.e., checking a clock) is also done with the assumption that you are awake, and that the test likely will not fail.
You don't need to think that you are dreaming to do a RC when you see something odd. The point of RC'ing when you see something odd is to confirm that your are not dreaming, not that you are -- the difference is significant. Also, I'm sure that this doubt does very little to help you gain self-awareness. Self-awareness is a cognitive activity -- a decision -- that really cannot be gained from spotting something odd (conversely, of course, if you have developed a strong sense of self-awareness, you might stand a better chance of actually spotting something odd in a dream, and acting upon it).
And, given that I know and care very little about the specifics of prefrontal cortex activity as it relates to prospective memory and MILD, I really cannot comment on whether you got that bit right.
1st 4. Keep in mind that dreams, lucid or not, are often bathed in strong emotion, and emotion is one of those things that is both difficult to control (especially in a dream) and difficult to recognize until after it has had its effect on you (in waking life as well, BTW). Because of this, I think they do very little to inspire self-awareness (though they can be instrumental in helping or hindering lucidity after you are lucid). And again, I care little about prefrontal cortex activity or, here at least, anything as specific as spurring it to increase chances of your MILD technique working for you. If you've mastered the fundamentals, MILD will work for you without explanation or concern for emotion.
2nd 4. Well, yeah. But you'd best have those other fundamentals -- self-awareness and memory -- in place as well, or all that incubation will result in nothing, or, worse, result in a NLD about being lucid.
5. This may be true, and is certainly a popular sentiment (i.e., LaBerge still feeds it to his customers at his Hawaii dream retreats) that I confess I may have repeated myself once or twice, but I've never held much faith in it. For me RC's are tools for daytime work, to help build self-awareness, and really don't come into play until after you sense you might be dreaming. In other words, you might certainly incubate doing an RC during a dream, but you'll be dreaming that you are RC'ing and very likely will find that your test confirms that you are not dreaming.
6. WILD is one of the ways we find ourselves lucid, and nothing more, or less. Aside from needing the fundamentals in place to successfully WILD, it is actually unrelated to them.
I hope these responses made some sense, and did not come off as rude or snarky (that was not intended). If you were presenting something other than what I've been talking about on this thread and elsewhere, that's fine. Also, I'm not trying to argue with you; if you are sure all these things you listed are spot-on correct, that's fine -- I'm just pointing out that much of this has little to do with the fundamentals.
Also, if I misunderstood, please let me know and, after apologizing for my misstatements, I will kick myself for wasting another hour of my life!
:sageous:
Actually your response is very helpful, I'm just trying to connect the dots about why MILD works, sorry it's a little off topic.
If there is something that confuses me about MILD is that we say we want to remember to become lucid NEXT TIME WE ARE DREAMING. Since when do we have a little light in our brain saying that we are dreaming?! Like, this must be a very bad cue. Does our prospective memory know when we are dreaming? because surely we don't while in a dream. I think this might be a thing that just works, and we don't know why yet, but it does and I shouldn't worry about it. Got any answer? Lol I'm really desperate, sorry to throw at you an impossible question.
Anyways I'm doing the self awareness practice. Amazingly, I stayed calm very nicely during my last LD, and had quite astonishing dream control, thnx to my daytime training and preparation, especially the self aware mindset I'm practicing to have inside the LD. I even had sex, twice!! So exciting and I didn't wake up!! I did eventually, but because I ran out of REM time, I'm pretty sure.
^^ You might be giving all this too much thought, Louai...
Actually, you sort of do have a little light in there saying you are dreaming: you.
In a sense there is no such thing, literally, as prospective memory; you're simply remembering to do something, using the same tools of cognition and memory that you use for "standard" memory. The term is simply something the psychologists came up with to describe one way we access memory (or a behavior, I guess). The cues that trigger prospective memory can be anything, including, yes, events in dreams (like dream signs, or "odd" things). There is no mental subroutine that says, "Hey, Louai is dreaming now, so I'd better tell him so," but rather by doing MILD you're building a scenario that helps you become more likely to notice (remember) that you are dreaming during the dream. To try to build a technical framework around that scenario might possibly be counterproductive, because in the end you're grabbing at air. And no, I do not believe you can set a prospective memory "alarm clock" to go off during the dream; it just doesn't work that way.
The interesting thing about MILD, to me, is that it isn't so much creating some prospective memory cue as it is planting a seed of self-awareness into your dream -- a little memory, or subtle undercurrent, of "you," as it were. This is my opinion, and I could certainly be wrong, but all this technical talk about things like time-based prospective memory are just that: talk. Do your MILD, be confident you will LD, and you will remember to remember.
So yeah, you might find yourself ahead of the game if you just "think this might be a thing that just works, and we don't know why yet, but it does," and don't worry about it.
That's excellent -- and more reason to not give too much attention to the technical minutiae/bullshit about what makes this stuff work!Quote:
Anyways I'm doing the self awareness practice. Amazingly, I stayed calm very nicely during my last LD, and had quite astonishing dream control, thnx to my daytime training and preparation, especially the self aware mindset I'm practicing to have inside the LD. I even had sex, twice!! So exciting and I didn't wake up!! I did eventually, but because I ran out of REM time, I'm pretty sure.
Thank you Sageous :)
This has really eased my mind, this has been worrying me for so long.
I will definitely stop worrying about it too much. I now know that whatever my understanding about how it works, it will still work, I just need to practice!
Indeed, giving to much thought about the technicalities is counterproductive. I should just accept that it's a very vague subject and ease my mind.
Thnx again Sageous, it's always beneficial when seeking your help :D
Why wouldn't you want to catch a FA? Catch a FA = lucid dream, Miss a FA = non-lucid dream. Presumably the goal in just about every discussion on this forum is how to get lucid, so when faced with a FA, pretty much everyone's goal is to catch it and become lucid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Catching a FA has nothing to do with "seeking one out." I don't seek out FAs, but I experience them during periods of frequent lucidity and would prefer to catch them and continue on lucid.
On the rest of it, chalk it up again to crossed wires again I suppose. If I thought the essence of my question had been addressed, I wouldn't have kept on saying I thought it hadn't been. :horse:
^^ I wasn't going to respond to this because we seem to be having difficulty communicating recently, but, since I respect your wisdom and ineterest (and you are correct):
Yes, if you find yourself in a FA, it would be most excellent to have tools on hand for converting that FA to a lucid dream. One tool is doing RC's whenever you "know" you are awake, just to be sure.
I think I was referring more to actually targeting or looking forward to FA's, as though they are an integral part of becoming lucid. Clearly you did no mean that.
Perhaps it's just a matter of semantics: "catch" implies, to me, anticipation and expectation, and perhaps a real desire to encounter a FA. Perhaps "capitalize" might be a better word. But, given that it's just semantics and who really cares, yes, you are correct and I agree: If FA's are a regular facet of your dreaming life, then learning to recognize them/test for them would indeed be a good thing to do.
:cheers:
Hey Sageous, I just wanted to ask a rather general question.
How long have you been practicing self awareness?
How long did it take you to start seeing your self awareness consistently in your dreams?
I'm just curious because I've been practicing self awareness for almost 2 months and Im pretty sure it should be coming over into my dreams consistently by now. Is 2 months too short to start seeing results like that? Or do I need to step up my self awareness game to a higher degree of it? Or do I need to stick with what I've got right now, and not change anything, and just wait a little longer? I know that with Hukif and his Gravity RC, it took him a few months to really start seeing results consistently. The reason I mention Hukif and his method is because I feel it is a type of self awareness, just changed a bit to fit him. Would it be correct to just keep practicing and wait it out as he did?
Before I respond, OneUpBoy, let me preface by saying that self-awareness is not a technique. It is a state of mind.
I guess I've been "practicing" self-awareness for as long as I've been LD'ing, which is something close to 40 years now. I've been seriously pursuing, or trying to understand the nature of self-awareness, for about a decade now. And I guess I've been doing physical techniques like RRC's for maybe 5 years. So I guess the practice can be measured in many ways... the key one for me is that it has just begun.
You do not see your self-awareness in dreams; you are simply self-aware. Self-awareness is not a thing you see or acquire, it is you. Try not to see it as something you acquire; rather, see it as a function of your mind that you do all the time, but to which you simply pay no attention.Quote:
How long did it take you to start seeing your self awareness consistently in your dreams?
To answer your question, though: to this day I rarely achieve the levels of self-awareness I desire in dreams; consistency is still a goal. That said, a low-level self-awareness seems present in most of my dreams, but that, I think, is a result of experiencing many thousands of LD's over many years, and did not come quickly or as a result of any particular technique.
So I guess the short answer is that it took decades to experience any level of consistent self-awareness in my dreams, and I am likely years away consistently reaching the levels of elf-awareness I desire.
But even if I misunderstood you and we're just talking semantics:
Two months is not a long time, when you are trying to develop a consistent sense of self-awareness. Some can spend their entire lives trying to be self-aware more than occasionally, much less consistently. Also, after you develop a decent sense of self-awareness in waking-life you have an opportunity to incorporate it into your dreams... it is not an external force that comes into your dreams for you.Quote:
I'm just curious because I've been practicing self awareness for almost 2 months and Im pretty sure it should be coming over into my dreams consistently by now. Is 2 months too short to start seeing results like that?
Keep your self-awareness "game" within the limits of your abilities, patience, and interest. Don't try to force more work onto yourself, and don't get disappointed in a lack of results, ever. Just do your best to remember, as often as you can, that you exist, that you have an influence on your local reality, and it has one on you.Quote:
Or do I need to step up my self awareness game to a higher degree of it? Or do I need to stick with what I've got right now, and not change anything, and just wait a little longer?
So if you're comfortable with your current practice, leave it be. And try to remember that self-awareness work is a long-term practice, and not a zero-sum deal.
Yup!Quote:
I know that with Hukif and his Gravity RC, it took him a few months to really start seeing results consistently. The reason I mention Hukif and his method is because I feel it is a type of self awareness, just changed a bit to fit him. Would it be correct to just keep practicing and wait it out as he did?
Wow, I really appreciate it Sageous, that you took the time to answer all of my questions. Thanks for correcting me that Self Awareness is a mindset and not a technique- my mistake. Not only has your reply helped me come to a greater understanding of Self Awareness, but it has also helped me to see what it really is. I remember reading an article about Paul Tholey not too long ago and how he incorporated his version of self awareness into his life. For him he saw results within a month- but it didn't specify those results.
After the first month of practicing my awareness and getting my state of mind right for it, I almost became lucid at least twice every night. I guess you could say I still do, now all I need to do is pay more attention because every time I almost become lucid, the only thing that stops me is the fact that I tell myself, "Is this a dream? Nah its way too vivid to be a dream." Now I have worked my way around it and I am becoming almost lucid at least once every night still.
However, the state I am looking to achieve right now is that of becoming Lucid in all of my dreams, every night. I know that I have a while now, but at least I have a target, and a set amount of time to know when it should come to me. Once again, thanks Sageous. It seems in every one of your posts, I always learn something new.
^^ Happy that I could help, OneUpBoy, though it sounds like you're well on your way anyway!
Good luck in the rest of your journey!
Hi Sageous,
There’s something I’ve been wondering about:
You said before that “self-aware” and “unconscious” are contradictory terms, and LD'ing requires you to keep up your self-awareness to some extent (be it through RC’s, RRC’s etc.), but:
I’m going to refer to the “all-day RC”, like gravity, transitions, breathing etc. With this type of approach, you take a constant attention to something in reality which you know is different in a dream (critical awareness) and after a long time of doing this, the constant critical question just sinks into the back of your mind and requires no further conscious input, and your mind internalizes it to such an extent that it just ‘knows’ always when things are such that it is either a dream or reality. But the thing is, when you get to this stage, you don’t need to “pay attention” to it anymore during the day. So it does indeed become an unconscious process, yet yields constant lucidity in dreams. I’m just wondering what your opinion is on this. Thanks.
^^ I guess the easiest response to this question is this: The unconscious and self-awareness are indeed contradictory terms, and without self-awareness there will be no lucid dreaming, regardless of whatever math, techniques, habits, or rationale you might be using. Lucidity is literally self-awareness, and all the techniques in the world cannot unravel this bit of reality. But easy is never easy, so:
There are no "all day" RC's, as they only last as long as you are aware they are lasting (the attention bit), which is pretty much never all day -- RC'ing all day would either become monumentally confusing or simply so much meaningless rote exercise. My opinion of ADA has been well documented here, so I don't think I need to go there today. But in terms of all those rote processes you listed, keep in mind that, when they become rote processes, or vehicles of habit, then they become fairly useless tools for lucidity. It isn't that your mind internalized these repetitious functions, but that those repetitious functions lost their power to affect your self-awareness. In other words, if you do ADA exercises to the point where your unconscious understands what they are and expects them to occur, you run the the risk of your unconscious, your dreaming mind, to include the fruit of those exercises in your NLD's, just like you apparently wanted. In other words, you will dream about the fruition of all those things you were practicing and very likely dream that you are lucid, without a breath of self-awareness.
So if you train your mind to complete self-awareness exercises without you, it will complete self-awareness exercises without you, and it (your mind) will certainly come to determine, to know, what is a dream and what is reality. The trouble is, it will be your unconscious defining what is reality, with no referee to judge the difference. From that stance you will have plenty of false lucids in which you dream you are aware, because you've trained your mind to create these schemata. Of course, if there is still a "You" paying attention to all these functional unconscious antics, you will notice that your dreaming mind is presenting you with versions of lucidity, and -- because you were paying attention -- you can take that presentation and raise it to the next level, which would be a lucid dream rich with your own conscious input, and not just the thing that you spent the last few months training your unconscious to present.
So: yes, critical awareness is, well, critical, but it must always be critical; you cannot let your unconscious go on autopilot, based on training you've provided. In order for your self-awareness to be present, you must pay attention to your mind's activities -- even when it is doing just what you expected it it do. Attention must always be present, period. If it is not, then neither are You, and your unconscious will present you with the dream you want to have, with no regard for your conscious, here & now desires or plans.
I hope that made sense, because this was an excellent question. If it didn't, then ask again, and I'll have another go.
^^Excellent points!
But when I mentioned the “all-day RC”, I was mostly referring to the ones which people like Hukif and Mylynes made popular. The best example is probably Hukif’s gravity RC. I actually spoke to Hukif not too long ago about this type of RC in a thread I started; he explains it very well. Here’s the link anyway:
http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...lly-aware.html
RC’s like this one are done in a different way to traditional RC’s. They work on the basis that you become familiar to one thing which you know is different in dreams than in reality -- it is kept in the back of your mind at all times. Just like learning something new, after a long time of practicing, it doesn’t require much conscious input because it’s mostly internalized and works in an ‘autonomous’ fashion -- it just becomes easy. Except what your mind finds “easy” in the case of this RC is the ability to differentiate between dreams and reality, because with months, perhaps years of practice, your mind eventually learns that normal gravity = reality, and abnormal gravity = dream, or something similar.
This is more along the lines of what I meant. I was confused as to how self-awareness fits into this particular approach, as once something like this becomes second nature, it doesn’t require much self-awareness anymore by the practitioner, because the difference between waking and dreaming has already been 'learned' and exists instinctively. Hope this makes sense.
^^ I think Hukif and I have very different opinions of the nature of a state test (RC), or perhaps we are on the same page, only reading from different directions. I also think that Hukif either humbly diminishes or perhaps does not understand the very high presence of self-awareness he exercises when doing this practice.
Yes, you could do that sort of practice, and, say, recognizing that "abnormal gravity = dream" could become an autonomous interpretation of your moment in reality. But you would still need to be able to interpret your autonomic observations, and that interpretation -- hell, just the acknowledgement of the automatic signal -- requires your attention, your self-awareness. In other words, that automatic observation is meaningless unless you pay attention to it. I think Hukif left that bit out, or, more likely, assumed that bit to be understood.
For example, let's say you're in a dream and that signal fires, but "You" are not there to acknowledge it: you might then have a dream about recognizing the difference in gravity, then dream that you are lucid, and all without a bit of self-awareness. Or that signal might be firing away in a dream, but if you are not "there" to hear it, your DC "You" will simply dismiss the signal, because it is sure (because the current dream schema says so) that you are supposed to be floating two feet above the ground, that that matches the nature of gravity exactly.
You must be able to sort out these signals in a self-aware manner wherever they occur, and this can only be done by being self-aware, by paying attention, at the moment of the signal. I think Hukif underestimates his own powerful skills when he assumes that you will always be ready to spot that signal, that your sense of self will always be en guard.
Which brings me back around to what I originally said, above: The actual RC is the moment you pay attention to that automatic signal you've been grooming for (probably) years. The moment is a short one, and only happens when your trained mind tells you something is different, or wrong. Again, I still think it would be impossible, if not a bit dangerous, to maintain the moment of attending to that signal all day. But that doesn't mean your mind can't be monitoring, say, gravity, all day. This is the same as teaching yourself to watch for the "odd," and then do a RC when you spot something. Yes, you are always ready to spot the odd (or a change in gravity), but it is the moment of acknowledging that oddness, and confirming your state, that is the actual RC, because that is the moment you attach self-awareness to it.
I feel like I'm repeating myself, so let me do a tl;dr to summarize: Yes you can train your mind to work quietly all day in a vigil to spot imagery or sensations that imply a dream state, and yes, you can train yourself to unconsciously signal when these things are spotted. But you must be able to recognize and attend to those signals when they occur, and this can only be done with self-awareness (and memory as well, but that is another story). So, though Hukif does underplay its necessity (probably because of the very high level of self-awareness he must enjoy), even this "automatic" all day RC will only work when self-awareness can be accessed, and attention can be paid to it.
Interesting question, Eamo; I hope my answer made sense, and doesn't sound like an argument... I think Hukif's "gravity plan" is brilliant and well worth mastering, and do not mean to belittle it, or him.
That's an excellent answer, Sageous; thanks for clarifying things. :)
Hi, I've read through a fair bit of this epic thread and your advice and experience seems to really stand-up so I decided to create randomised alarms that go off at a random interval between 20 to 60 minutes (using a bit of Ruby script).
Every time an alarm goes off, I try to test my awareness by first focusing on the details of my sensations, ala ADA and then doing a short RC that is usually context sensitive to the sensation I was focusing on (hopefully this detail will avoid the pitfall you talked about with overly habitual checks). Then I ask myself what I was just doing and where I am going to be followed by some quick contemplation of the current chain of events I am a part of. Finally, if this is the first alarm, I try to quickly recap the events that happened since I woke up that morning and if it is a later alarm, just until the last alarm went off.
As a quick example, say an alarm goes off sometime in dusk and there is red-orange sunlight streaming from my window, casting distinct silhouettes of window sill accessories. After a moment of drinking in this sight with all the fidelity my visual cortex can muster, I would hover my hand into the stream and closely examine the shadow cast for any suspicious distortions. That would serve as the reality check. Then I would think about the lesson in CSS code I am currently doing and what I hope to accomplish from this. How would this influence me and how would I possibly influence the online world (if I can indulge at least some delusions of grandeur there).
My reasoning is that this should serve as both a continual memory and self-awareness exercise. However, I am aware that the "self" part of the awareness might still be sketchy at the moment in my details so I hope to expand on that part of the exercise after a few days of seeing if I can sustain this level of introspection first.
Am I thinking in the right direction or have I read you all wrong?
Yes, you are definitely thinking in the right direction, DeviantThinker (kind of makes your name a bit ironic, huh?).
I particularly like your "alarm system" for RC's, and your choice to make them context sensitive, and not the same action every time. Including memory in the moment is an excellent plan as well.
There were only a couple of small things I found to comment on:
First, if all your RC's carry this sort of imagery and appreciation for the moment, you are well along on your way indeed; that was a truly beautiful moment you created for yourself, I think!Quote:
As a quick example, say an alarm goes off sometime in dusk and there is red-orange sunlight streaming from my window, casting distinct silhouettes of window sill accessories. After a moment of drinking in this sight with all the fidelity my visual cortex can muster, I would hover my hand into the stream and closely examine the shadow cast for any suspicious distortions. That would serve as the reality check.
But...
I think you might consider avoiding these sorts of thoughts, as they might be a bit too globally intellectual to help hold you in the place you need to be for properly appreciating your RC (and, later, your dream). Instead of clearing your mind, and really soaking up the moment to fully determine both that it does not represent a dream, but also your direct presence in that moment, adding that CSS bit might run the risk of opening a floodgate of abstract thoughts regarding a subject that occupies much of your mind. Your already successful goal of a simple sense of interaction with your local reality might be obscured in a cloud of short and long-term waking-life plans, aspirations, and intellectual ruminations that is lined with an aura of possibly welcome distraction. Maybe just stick to actions like that RC at the windowsill, and thinking about your place in your immediate reality -- what you just affected/effected, where you are right now.Quote:
Then I would think about the lesson in CSS code I am currently doing and what I hope to accomplish from this. How would this influence me and how would I possibly influence the online world (if I can indulge at least some delusions of grandeur there).
You seem well on your way already, but, as I just said, giving the presence and participation of your Self a higher priority than, say, the things on which you are working, should take you closer to a more successful "continual memory and self-awareness exercise" that includes the most vital element of lucidity, self-awareness.Quote:
My reasoning is that this should serve as both a continual memory and self-awareness exercise. However, I am aware that the "self" part of the awareness might still be sketchy at the moment in my details so I hope to expand on that part of the exercise after a few days of seeing if I can sustain this level of introspection first.
Yeah, I had a feeling that I was being too wound up in goal orientated thinking and details in my introspection.
Thanks for confirming my suspicion!
Hi Sageous,
I finally managed to read trough whole the thread, it took me weeks (not always have much time to read on this forum). And wow, it really opened my eyes on many levels. I really like the style where you, with so much patience, keep trying to explain yourself throughoutly.
I have some opinions that may or may not differ with yours, and probably will check those with you later, but first I still have some questions.
1. If I practise what you say, or better: what I think you say, it reminds me a lot off mindfullness. Do you see any similarities? And can you also point out the differences?
Maybe not a very good definition, found it on wiki:
Mindfulness is "the intentional, accepting and non-judgmental focus of one's attention on the emotions, thoughts and sensations occurring in the present moment",[1] which can be trained by meditational practices[1] derived from Buddhist anapanasati.[2]
For me mindfullness is more getting into the here and know, concious about yourself and your surroundings and trying to stay there as long as possible.
2. What happened with the "you are not the most important" part of your technique? I read it in the beginning of your treath and really liked it, it seems important for me overall, not specifically for LD, but for a healthy attitude. But it disappeared in the questions you mentioned again and again later in the thread. Do you have a reason for this or is it coincidence? And how exactly can this relate to the lucid dreaming state, where to me you actually are the most important and only one.
3. Could you please try to describe what exactly happens with you when you ask these questions to yourself, in terms of perception, clarity, sudden changes or gradual, how deep this strikes you and how long the effect of it stays, or in other terms that suite you more off course. I ask this to be able to compare if what happens to me is in the right direction. I ask it and not describe what is happening to me because it is so diverse, I try slight variations on your description and they sometimes give other effects, so I wonder what is the direction you tend to show us.
4. Afther all these years do you still ask yourself these questions or do you manage to create an at once mind setting of wonder?
If you have time please be welcome to give some of your ideas, if not I will try to figure out myself. Anyway thanks for your sharing in this thread, it has been and still is very inspiring.
The whole thread? Damn, that's impressive -- and perhaps humbling for me, given the number of times I must have contradicted myself, or wandered off to unexpected places ... thanks for your attention and patience!
Now:
Yes, self-awareness is essentially mindfulness -- it is difficult to separate the two, except maybe for my opinion that self-awareness is more involved in acknowledging your own interaction with reality than mindfulness might be. I guess I was avoiding the term "mindfulness" in an effort to avoid having the thread follow a religious path..
That is pretty much my definition of self-awareness, so again, yes, we are on the same page here.Quote:
For me mindfulness is more getting into the here and know, conscious about yourself and your surroundings and trying to stay there as long as possible.
Hmm. I don't remember ever saying -- or thinking -- "'you are not the most important' part of your technique," and am far too lazy to find the context of such a statement in the thread. But I'll take your word for it, because I say lots of things when following a particular cadence of a Q & A, and will answer as though I did:Quote:
2. What happened with the "you are not the most important" part of your technique? I read it in the beginning of your treath and really liked it, it seems important for me overall, not specifically for LD, but for a healthy attitude. But it disappeared in the questions you mentioned again and again later in the thread. Do you have a reason for this or is it coincidence? And how exactly can this relate to the lucid dreaming state, where to me you actually are the most important and only one.
My best guess here is that I must have gotten into a conversation about dual and non-dual perspective, with non-dual being the target for successful LD'ing. In a non-dual perspective, you are intertwined with reality, and there is no separate "you" that observes from a distance or independent viewpoint (duality). And in a dream, there is no such thing as duality, because everything is "You," so pursuing a non-dual stance in a dream is counterproductive. So in a sense a standalone "you" does not exist, especially in a dream, where the entire universe is You; attempting to establish a separate "you" in a dream (i.e., lending relevance to your DC dream body by assuming it is real and separate from the rest of the dream) moves you a step away from lucidity, rather than a step closer.
Or something like that. I would probably have attempted to say all that without using the terms "duality" or "non-duality (monism)," because, as with the "mindfulness" omission, I wanted to avoid a lapse into the philosophical or religious discussion that terms like this seem to invite. Perhaps I should have used the terms?
All that aside, if I truly did say that "'You are not the most important part" of my technique, and the statement held when pulled out of context, then I was wrong: You -- as in the Self -- are most definitely the most important part of lucid dreaming, because lucid dreaming is essentially a conscious acknowledgement of you, and nothing else.
But you bring up something else, even more important: I am not presenting a technique on this thread!
If anything, the fundamentals are the anti-technique technique: master them and you will never need a technique to enjoy LD'ing (and much more). Yes, I'm sure I often discussed techniques (i.e., WBTB, MILD, RC's, and, of course, RRC's), as it can't be helped here, but self-awareness, memory, and expectation/intention are not among them: they are basic aspects of mind, aspects that must be present to make all those techniques work, sure, but not techniques. Again: this thread is not a technique tutorial -- assume that it is, and you will miss its entire point.
I assume by the "questions" you mean the RRC... correct me if I misunderstood.Quote:
3. Could you please try to describe what exactly happens with you when you ask these questions to yourself, in terms of perception, clarity, sudden changes or gradual, how deep this strikes you and how long the effect of it stays, or in other terms that suite you more off course. I ask this to be able to compare if what happens to me is in the right direction. I ask it and not describe what is happening to me because it is so diverse, I try slight variations on your description and they sometimes give other effects, so I wonder what is the direction you tend to show us.
I think that what happens to me during a RRC is a moment of memory. For me -- a person with little interest in things like ADA -- physical perception is fairly unimportant, so I'm not really looking around during a RRC (though that can certainly be the case for others). The clarity is one of remembering who I am, where I am, and that I am involved with my immediate reality (sort of exactly as I describe it in my WILD class).
This moment varies according to where I happen to be when I stop to wonder, but it always serves to help me pay attention, to wonder, and become self-aware.... I guess we'd call that a moment of clarity, huh? When a RRC goes well, the shift to clarity is fairly immediate, and its effect lasts for as long as I am paying attention (usually a few seconds to a few minutes in waking life, far longer during dreams).
So no, I guess I cannot describe exactly what happens to me... this is a very "general" event, and it will be different every time, because it is driven by the moment, and by my current interaction with my local reality. The general theme is one of remembering to remember, to wonder, and of paying attention to where I am right now. Sorry it's so hazy.
If you'd care to go through an even longer Q & A thread, you might browse the Q & A thread in my WILD class, as it has many questions -- and answers -- about RRC's. Maybe one or two of them, or several combined, will tell you what you really want to know. Fair warning, though: this may be the first time I ever called it a "moment of memory," so don't call me out for changing my mind, again!
Usually it's an "at once" sort of event, with the questions already being answered before I can phrase them. If the sense of wonder fails to arrive, though -- perhaps because I'm being a bit too habitual about things -- I will pause and actually run through all three questions, slowly and thoughtfully, just to verbally remind myself what I'm supposed to be wondering about.Quote:
4. After all these years do you still ask yourself these questions or do you manage to create an at once mind setting of wonder?
So yes, after all these years I do occasionally ask myself the questions!
If any of this was unclear or simply incomplete, please feel free to ask once more, and I will try again.
Many thanks, DreamyStivi, for taking the time to read through this thread; I truly hope that your time spent here will make a difference.
:sageous:
I am to lazy myself to look it up, but I understand now it is/was a hint to non-duality, probably that's why I liked it and missed it in your later posts.
No, no, it is just nice to know. Nice to know that it is a form of mind-fullness (btw these days it is more a clinical term then a religious one) adjusted slightly to fit more in the LD sfere: interaction, memory (where was I before this). And nice to know that you have a non-dual way of thinking.
Well, I guess I understand what you say anyhow, but I think we have some other concepts about technique here. I was definitely not referring to a technique to LD, and of course self awareness is not a technique for me. But to me the method you use to get there, is not self awareness itself, but is and stays a method, a technique, whatever you call it, to get into a self-aware mindset, and here I am referring to the questions (yes, RRC) you ask, sometimes even with the help of a device. This sounds technique to me. But I think I understand your point, and I think it doesn't yet differ from my way of looking at it. Don't worry, I will never see self awareness as a technique, it is a state of mind to me.
Yes I tend to call that clarity. Before I wonder I see my surroundings but I don't notice that I see it, the moment the wonder comes in, I notice that I am seeing, and this makes everything more clear, present, lucid.
That assures me not to worry that it can feel sometimes so different, I was worried it was because of my slight variations, but see now that it indeed depends on the moment, what is happening or not and how deeply I was sunk in my automatic pilot or not.
But I often have a feeling op openness. Feeling more open to my surroundings, being able to notice things that I didn't notice before, you think is this ok?
I started this already, but I am going to take my time, more then weeks I guess, just as a now and then source of inspiration: not to forget to practise it.
But maybe one question: I have a busy life and have a small family, I would love to practise more on Wild, but it takes to much of my sleep, I have not much spare in my sleep time, do you have any advice on this?
Cool, that's same like me. Sometimes asking these questions seem more like a hindrance, because being already rather alert (after some meditation for example), other times I really need the questions, to wake me up. Thanks for sharing your experience.
I think I differ here a bit on your opinion on meditation. Although I follow you that meditation on itself will have no or very little effect on lucid dreams, I will never agree that it has a negative effect on it, especially not with meditations that aim to augment your self awareness, and that is fundamental to my definition of meditation and of many others I guess as wel. I experience that after meditation or during days when I meditate, this wonder comes very easily, as I explained above (without need of questions). What new to me is, and that I learned from you, that this is not sufficient. You need to know about LD, to set your intentions and create expectations for it, to have an effect on your dreams. I am very grateful that you pointed this out. Now I can use what I already did: developing my self awareness by meditation and wonder (this not so frequent until I stumbled on this thread), to improve my so beloved , but not so frequent and not often so high lucid dreams. Thanks. You inspire me to add some techniques (sorry, here I go again, you know what I mean, I hope) aimed specific at lucid dreaming to enhance the side effect of self awareness on my dreams. I don't know if it works, I will have to give it some more time first, but it seams logical.
Thanks, and there will probably come more questions after some time.
This is a very good thing ... as long as you don't let those surroundings take on too much importance, and diminish your sense of participation in your local reality. Allow yourself to become a humble spectator only, and the same will happen in your dreams.
Not really. Setting up timing for WILD's can be difficult when your waking-life schedule is full. I can suggest two thoughts, though: You could organize your sleep schedule so that your WILD attempts occur, say, very early in the morning when the family is sleeping and your busy day hasn't yet started, or you could reserve a few hours of your day off (I know; when do those happen, right?) as personal time, and do your WILD's then.Quote:
But maybe one question: I have a busy life and have a small family, I would love to practise more on Wild, but it takes to much of my sleep, I have not much spare in my sleep time, do you have any advice on this?
One upside to scheduling specific WILD time, though, is that it makes your dive attempts more important, perhaps something that you look forward to doing all week. This builds up expectation and might help you focus better during the attempt, given its importance. So perhaps a busy life might wind up working in your favor, if you let it.
Fortunately, that is not my opinion of meditation. If I ever said that meditation has a negative effect on LD'ing, I was woefully wrong. Techniques like MILD and the those that we do to WILD are essentially versions of meditation, after all.Quote:
I think I differ here a bit on your opinion on meditation. Although I follow you that meditation on itself will have no or very little effect on lucid dreams, I will never agree that it has a negative effect on it, especially not with meditations that aim to augment your self awareness, and that is fundamental to my definition of meditation and of many others I guess as well.
Yes, meditation alone will not induce a LD (for most), but it is certainly an excellent tool to add to the mix. Perhaps you misinterpreted posts I must have made that described how bad I am personally at meditation, and because of that have not included it in my LD'ing routines and priorities? I usually try to include a note saying that's "just me," but I might have left it out.
So rest assured that I may have an occasional problem with communication, but not with meditation. It can be a fine practice, and, given that so many versions of meditation (Vipassana comes to mind) are meant to increase mindfulness/self-awareness, and help develop a sense of non-duality, how could I disagree with its efficacy?
Sageous I was wondering what ways do you know of that increase self awareness aside from ADA\dream yoga\mindfulness or RR'C and normal RC's(are there even more? not quite sure myself...).
Personally I thinks devloping self awareness is great for LDing, but I think success in lucid dreaming can also come from non-awareness based techniques, such as MILD.
your thoughts?
Hey Sageous, just wanted to tell you that I had my first lucid in a long time this morning and I can safely attribute this directly to your self awareness and memory advice. It took me a while to figure out how to practice self awareness but I decided to try lidybug's Clear Light Perspective.
Unfortunately I made the mistake of blinking in the dream and I woke up but promising results regardless!
First, I never really considered ADA a good way to increase self-awareness, because it tends to diminish your presence in reality rather than elevate it. Aside from that, I think what you've listed pretty much covers the gamut of solidifying your self-awareness for me. There is also meditation, of course (as I mentioned above, much of what I do is similar to Vipassana), but ultimately self-awareness boils down to simply paying attention, so, for me, the number of techniques for developing it extremely limited.
I would also imagine that most techniques for developing self-awareness will likely fall into a RRC sort of category, but I'm sure others have come up with clever ways to mindfully dip into the Here & Now, and really think about your interaction with reality. Unfortunately, I can only imagine, because I've never looked that hard at the work of others about this; I suppose I should have! However, Deviant thinker does remind me that Lidybug's Clear Light Perspective is an excellent technique/point of view to look into. I am sure there are many more, but they will all come down to the same set of simple yet-oh-so-difficult activities that tempt you to consider that you exist, and are integral to reality.
Also, I really do not consider RC's a tool for improving self-awareness, since you can successfully complete them without ever drawing your Self into the exercise.
So: except for meditation, I have no other ways. Self-awareness is that simple.
Mostly agreed.Quote:
Personally I thinks developing self awareness is great for LDing, but I think success in lucid dreaming can also come from non-awareness based techniques, such as MILD.
Though self-awareness is critical to LD'ing, remember that there are two other fundamentals to LD'ing. MILD is an excellent technique for developing memory, for instance, and getting it involved in the process of getting lucid. Time must also be spent on expectation/intention as well. However, you can use MILD to bring you to a moment of lucidity, but you still must have some sens of self-awareness on hand for that moment to continue and blossom.
Also, keep in mind that if you truly master self-awareness, memory as a tool for lucidity is much more accessible as well, and expectation suddenly becomes much less important...
That clear light perspective sure looks hard, i'm definately gonna try that one day...
Also, maybe it's just me but what does memory mean when you talk about it in the OP and how do I improve it. Never really understood that one.
And speaking of memory, is it ok to 2 mantras at once (like"I know i'm dreaming, i'm lucid)?
You know, I must have started a thread about memory (as one of the fundamentals) a half dozen times now, and I have yet to be satisfied with the results. I think that is because I was consistently trying to complicate a very simple subject enough to justify an extensive OP and discussion, when memory pretty much defines itself, if reflexively, with one word: memory.
As I reread it now, I notice that I made one small error in the OP when I discussed memory: I said memory was shut off during non-lucid dreams. Though that is effectively true, and makes it point as is I suppose, memory is never actually shut off during NLD's; it is simply inaccessible. But I digress.
The memory I'm talking about here is not a technique or skill like dream recall, prospective memory as used in MILD, or some trick for remembering to remember, but memory itself -- the big-picture database in your brain that contains all the information that defines you; all the moments, details, facts, and experiences that comprise your personal history and shape your personality.. In a very real sense you are your memories, and when you lose access to memory in a dream, you lose access, literally, to You.
It is that simple, for better of for worse. Memory as a Lucid Dreaming Fundamental is memory itself, and not some technique or operation. As I think I noted in the thread somewhere, improving access to memory is certainly possible, and there are innumerable techniques and guidebooks available to help you do so, any of which would be just as useful as what I would have to say. In other words, just keep in mind that successful lucidity depends on your ability to access your memory and, thus, access the foundations of your Self. This access can result from strong self-awareness, though, and often can be triggered by techniques such as MILD or RC's.
I know that was brief and possibly not what you wiched to hear, but it's the best answer, initially, to your question; I hope I made some sense. If not, then ask again and I'll give it another go, because this memory is an important subject that rarely fets its due attention.
Sure.Quote:
And speaking of memory, is it ok to 2 mantras at once (like"I know i'm dreaming, i'm lucid)?
Sageous, you wouldn't believe what happened to me just now but long story short, I used your reverse RC for one day and that same night I got a lucid!!!!!
Now the long version :p
So during the day I was practicing my SAT\ADA methods, but I wanted to throw your method into the mix, i started questioning really intensely where will I go and where was I and does being where I am make sense, and thats really it.
Also, I incorprated more of the SAT awareness after realizing I should emphsize that and not RC mindlessly(or do it without the awareness is more accurate) I also said my mantras during the day with the RC's and awareness and I did a ADA session close to my sleeping time.
So I went to bed quite early because I need to get up early too, then I remember asking myself: "Hmmmm" as I grin and make a small laugh "I don't know whether i'm actually awake in bed or dreaming".
AND THEN IT HIT ME, I'M LUCID!!!!! now this is where things get crazy. I didn't really expect to be lucid you see, at least not this fast!!! so I wasted my LD trying to get to sleep. during this time I felt really stressed and scared because I was afraid of not getting early enough for my job(and because I thought about creepypastas at the time)
.
Then I decided to just try and get along with the lucid and do stuff, but then an invisible force(maybe my subconsious I think) pushed me forcefully into the bed with great strength.
I struggled with it for a short amount of time and then I gave up, fell to the bed and asleep only to wake up after my lucid. :(
So yeah I guess your method works really well for me! maybe this is the method I was looking for!(although it's soon to say since I only got 1 lucid so far).
I've pretty much put this method in hiatus since my sleep has been so screwed for the past couple of weeks. I'm just working solely on fixing my sleep at the moment.
Sageous, do have any good tips for good sleep? I know that you don't really need to sleep as much now but what were effective practices for a sonorous snooze back when you were a mere whippersnapper like us?
HeWhoShapes: Interesting experience -- and an experience that was likely unavoidable, given the amount of day work you put in!
I'm not sure why you were still trying to go to sleep after you knew you were dreaming (and thus also knew you were asleep); you might want to incorporate a plan to avoid that sort of activity next time you're lucid. Thanks for sharing!
Well, I guess I must remember something about a good nights sleep, even though it was so long ago that I cared... :sageous::
I think the best thing to guarantee a good night's sleep is the atmosphere of the place in which you are sleeping. A cool, comfortable bedroom, a cozy bed, closed curtains, and no distractions like TV's or computers, is all you really need to go to sleep peacefully and stay there once you are asleep. If possible, try to keep other distractions (like siblings or parents) out of your room (or earshot) for a while.
Also, try not to think about anything other than your dreams, or other good thoughts. Bedtime is not the time to fret about the day you just finished, or the one you have to deal with tomorrow; just let it all slide.
And don't go to sleep with you TV or computer on; that never helps!
Finally, and of course, give yourself enough time to sleep. If you must get up early, then go bed early as well!
I don't think I added anything new or original here, so I'm not sure if I helped -- but I hope so!
Good luck and good night!
Well the reason is because I think that having LD's harms your sleep cycle and thus your sleep(not completly sure it's true though, is it?).
I guess also because it took me 2 hours just to get back to sleep that night!(even though i went to sleep at 3:26!) ,I was really exited so that may have caused it, plus a desire to try to WILD that night.
No, I don't believe it is.
Generally, lucid dreaming has no real effect on your entire sleep cycle. Your body still goes about its restorative process regardless of your occasional conscious presence during that process.
As an exception, about the only "harm" I've encountered is waking up mentally exhausted after very high-level LD's that go on for hours (through DEILD dream-chaining); I've heard of headaches as well after this, but I don't get them. For me, the trade-off has always been worth it!
I think this has been researched as well (though I cannot remember by whom), and it has been found that "normal" LD'ing has no effect on your overall sleep cycle... it might even help, because LD's can be used to deal with your daytime problems, fend off nightmares, or just relax in a perfectly calm place. So try not to worry about it!
Sageous I was wondering if it's a good idea to incorprate RC'S into my RR'C (like questioning where I am and doing an RC to confirm whether i'm dreaming) or should I just keep them seperate?
^^ Sure, go ahead and combine them. An RC after an RRC is a nice way to conclude the moment, and might come in handy should you be doing a RRC during a dream.
Hi again Sage!
So I really got to learning about how to preform RC's properly and I read that you must have a "critical question" followed but other questions to check your reality(things like who\what are you, where have you been, how did yiu get to where you are,what are you doing and why etc.)
So my question is all of this questioning really necessary in every single RC attempt????? isn't just enough to ask the critical question and inspect your sorundings and do a simple nose-plug RC without all of this questioning????
I guess it sounds like i'm being lazy, which I admit I kinda am, and yet I do think all of this questioning and a bit overwhelming wouldn't you say?
This comes up frequently, and not that long ago recently. I will attempt a brief answer and Sageous will I'm sure fill in what I get wrong or missed.
An RC is a quick simple check to determine whether or not you're dreaming. That's it, no more, no less. For example: nose pinch: can you breathe? Yes->dream, no->awake. Pretty simple. Now, yes while doing the RC you should do it not while distracted, you should for that brief time give it your full attention, to avoid the undesirable habit of doing an RC in a dream and then just ignoring the result and moving on non-lucidly.
A practice of performing RCs while awake typically does not build self-awareness. It's the other way around: elevated self-awareness causes you to do the RC in the first place. Some people say that doing RCs habitually/frequently during the day will causes the habit to transfer over into dreams, but for myself personally, I do not see that. If you're in "zombie mode," briefly tune in long enough to perform an RC, then immediately zone out again, you're not really working towards becoming lucid in dreams.
But then how does one build self-awareness? That's where developing a critical faculty comes in. Other ways of devleoping awareness include: Sageous's RRC; mindfulness/vigilance, meditation, and so forth.
In short, learning to pay attention to yourself and your mindset/interactions with your environment. Being lucid while awake is the best way to be lucid in dreams.
Going through a series of questions is not harmful I think but just sort of unnecessary, at least once you get into the swing of being tuned in: once you're familiar enough with the feel of a dream, when you pay attention (are mindful, etc.), you just "know" that you're dreaming. While RCs can be very helpful to confirm the dream state, it's the awareness that gets you to doing the RC "heyyyyy, something's odd about this".
[I wrote the following before reading FringMan's post above, which really is a much better answer!]
Nope. All of that questioning is by no means necessary, and is probably a distraction from the primary purpose of an RC, which is simply testing your state. That critical question can, and perhaps ought to be, nothing more than "Is this a dream?" Any other questions are, I think, part of something else (like my RRC, for instance), and are best asked separately from that simple critical inquiry.
I have a feeling that all those other, deeper questions were added over time by well-meaning people who wanted to make the occasion of an RC as deep and meaningful as possible. Unfortunately, in the process they may have left behind the singular purpose of RC's, which is to get your mind prepared for the moment when the simple answer to the question becomes, "Yes, this is a dream." To add complication, meaning, or deeper introspection to a RC might feel like the right thing to do, but it really isn't. Ask those other questions some other time, sure, but adding them to the moment of an RC both dilutes the impact of the RC, especially when its answer is positive, and reduces the importance of the other questions as well.
So cater to your laziness, HeWhoShapes, or perhaps your excellent intellectual instincts, and avoid those overwhelming examinations and just keep those RC's simple!
Well fryingman i do know the RC's don't make you lucid, it is the questioning and mindfulness you put into the questions(or so i read) yet I assume we both agree on that right?
I don't know sageous i'm kinda seeing a bit of a contradiction from what you told me in my earlier question:
"Sure, go ahead and combine them. An RC after an RRC is a nice way to conclude the moment, and might come in handy should you be doing a RRC during a dream."
I mean, if they should be seprate, then why combine them at all in the end?!
Well i guess i should tell you guys why i came up with that question: so i have been reading these guides lately (some of them from the site ld4all, so i don't know if i can show them):
Puffin's DILD Guide - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
"The Importance of Awareness"
and
"The Secret of Frequent Lucid Dreamers"
both of them are on LD4all
I also read and saw these:
Physical And Mental Reality Checks For Lucid Dreaming - How To Lucid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Abf8vo44w
if you read those guides(and i reccomend you do) you will have noticed that especially in the former 2, questioning your reality is greatly emphisized, so I figured i should do the same with RC's.
I think the only logical thing for me to do now is to just seprate the 2 types of questions like sageous suggested.
Also thanks guys for your valuable inupt(again :chuckle: )
^^ If you already had your answer, then why did you ask the question?
This is not a thread for arguing, HeWhoShapes; I'm here to answer questions based on what I know, and what I've presented here and in my WILD class. If you have found more agreeable answers to your questions from someone else, that's just fine. But there is no need to present those answers here as an argument against the answer I offered, as I have no inclination to defend myself. I have not maintained my presence on this thread to be tested or trolled, either, and really do not appreciate being asked loaded questions just so you can show me how I'm wrong or mistaken; that is not helping anyone.
But, as long as I'm here:
I see no contradiction here, because I clearly said to do a RC after a RRC, and not directly combine the questioning. I was suggesting to do a RC in addition to the RRC in the same general time frame. There is a difference between doing two different exercises sequentially, as I said in that quote, and making a RC a moment of complex questioning. Though I did use the word "combine," I think I was pretty clear that you would still be ding an RC on its own, before or after your RRC. I do not feel I contradicted myself here.
Again, HeWhoShapes, if you find someone else's take on this stuff more agreeable, that's fine; but please don't list them here as if to indicate that my suggestions were wrong, simply because those tutorials -- and other opinions -- exist. That said:Quote:
Well i guess i should tell you guys why i came up with that question: so i have been reading these guides lately (some of them from the site ld4all, so i don't know if i can show them) ... if you read those guides(and i reccomend you do) you will have noticed that especially in the former 2, questioning your reality is greatly emphisized, so I figured i should do the same with RC's.
Though I am sure that material you've presented has merit (and I am familiar with some of it), I really do not think that presenting me with some links to opinions and experience that vary from mine shows that I am wrong, or perhaps ignorant of some common knowledge -- honestly, I wasn't sure what you were going for here.
I obviously do not agree that questioning reality in a RC or RRC is needed. For me, questioning reality is a little silly in any case, because you always instinctively know the answer to that question -- that, yeah, this is reality -- so the question itself is a bit disingenuous.
Plus, during a NLD the dream is reality, so even questioning reality there does not make sense for gaining lucidity, because all you are doing is confirming that what you had non-lucidly assumed as real is real. Also, I've never been in favor of assuming that everything is a dream, because I personally cannot do so without knowing that it is not (and I highly doubt that anyone being honest with themselves could envision their environment as a dream). And of course, people who have trouble with reality in the first place should never question reality, but that isn't relevant here, I think.
State tests are meant to confirm reality; that is how they work. If you start assuming that the baseline for the state test -- reality -- is not real, then you are simply muddling the RC, not to mention kidding yourself.
So then you never had to ask the question, and you also were never confused by my apparent contradiction above. I really do not appreciate having my time wasted, HeWhoShapes, I hope you'll avoid doing so in the future.Quote:
I think the only logical thing for me to do now is to just seprate the 2 types of questions like sageous suggested.
Well I guess it's kinda my fault for not being clear then, I asked these questions and put those links up not really to argue with you, my intent was just to show you how I got to that conclusion about questioning reality.
I think that since your input is so helpful I don't think you are wrong at all and you are right, this isn't a place for argueing anyways.
I should have put more thought into it(wrote it when I came very tired home from work you see).
So I think that I finally understand what I should have a long time ago, the role of RC's (and RR'C?) is just to confirm reality rather than questioning it correct?
Sorry if I wasted your time, next time I shouldn't write when tired! :\
^^ Fair enough. I am very glad I misunderstood!
That's pretty much it, from my perspective. The RRC is a bit more involved, because you are acknowledging your presence and participation in your local reality as well, but the existence of reality, in either case, is better left understood, and not questioned. And, of course, by assuming that reality is real (aka not questioning it), when a RC fails in a dream and you find that reality is not real, everything slides much more smoothly toward full lucidity.
One other quick, and ironic, RC note that I thought of this morning: you really cannot do a RC in a dream -- and have it fail, proving you are dreaming -- unless you are already at least slightly lucid. If you RC while not lucid in a dream, it will work just like it does in reality, and not fail. I don't know why I thought that was relevant to this conversation, but I thought I'd throw it in...
I feel like it was much less wasted now; thanks for the clarifications! And take a nap before you post next time! ;)Quote:
Sorry if I wasted your time, next time I shouldn't write when tired! :\
:sageous:
Yes, it's sort of a "chicken and the egg" scenario, "what came first, the RC or the lucidity?" Looking anecdotally at my LDs, I agree it's always lucidity that comes first. The RC is an extremely useful tool -- in more than a few dreams it has greatly assisted in solidifying lucidity, amplifying it from a tiny back-of-the-mind notion to full-fledged conscious realization. But lucidity begins with the (sometimes tiny seed of) awareness ("hey, that's weird/surprising", or "this feels like a dream").