^^ "Save the big one" here meant "except for the big one," That "big one" being your self-awareness or the dream itself. Sorry for the confusion -- I seem to do that a lot!
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^^ "Save the big one" here meant "except for the big one," That "big one" being your self-awareness or the dream itself. Sorry for the confusion -- I seem to do that a lot!
no problem. thanks for clearing upQuote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Last night, I think I got really close.
I woke up after 5 hours and 45 minutes because of an alarm, and went to the restroom, etc. I then wrote down my dreams. In all this took about 10 - 12 minutes.
I got back in bed, pretty aware of my surroundings, unlike previous nights.
I did my relaxation method (flex-freeze) and then repeated my mantra after each breath. Sometimes, I would lose myself in thought, but bring myself back, which I then noticed I would be more and more relaxed. After about 20 minutes, I felt this weird tingling sensation in my left shoulder. It was very slight, but it felt like my shoulder was falling asleep or someone was tickling it. Then, my whole body started to feel heavy. I just kept repeating my mantra, trying not to focus too hard on it. For some reason after a couple minutes, I got up. I have no idea why. I think I might have fallen asleep, I just don't remember it.
I was close! :P But I still got that "bored" feeling - even with those slight sensations. That's probably why I moved. :/
Been failing these last 3 days, not quite sure what's going on with my natural WBTB but I seem to be failing at waking up in time, and when I do wake up it's too late to do a WBTB + a WILD attempt. Might use an alarm for a day or two and sacrifice dream recall just to get back into schedule.
Or you succeeded and thought you were still awake. That could be why you dont remember it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydney
Your anticipation might be screwing you up. An alarm might be just the thing to get your body back in line...hopefully you won't need to use it for too long.Quote:
Originally Posted by RareCola
Quote:
Last night, I think I got really close.
I woke up after 5 hours and 45 minutes because of an alarm, and went to the restroom, etc. I then wrote down my dreams. In all this took about 10 - 12 minutes.
I got back in bed, pretty aware of my surroundings, unlike previous nights.
I did my relaxation method (flex-freeze) and then repeated my mantra after each breath. Sometimes, I would lose myself in thought, but bring myself back, which I then noticed I would be more and more relaxed. After about 20 minutes, I felt this weird tingling sensation in my left shoulder. It was very slight, but it felt like my shoulder was falling asleep or someone was tickling it. Then, my whole body started to feel heavy. I just kept repeating my mantra, trying not to focus too hard on it. For some reason after a couple minutes, I got up. I have no idea why. I think I might have fallen asleep, I just don't remember it.
I was close! But I still got that "bored" feeling - even with those slight sensations. That's probably why I moved. :/
That actually could be the case, Sydney... it sounds bizarre, but you might have been in that blank NREM place when you got up. You're doing great -- everything seems to be in place, but you must resist the urge to get up, just in case the door to your dream is still open...Quote:
Originally Posted by ThAtaInTmE
Also, even if you fall asleep, you still might have a LD, because of your set intentions and expectations. It won't be a WILD, but you'll still be lucid, so who cares? So try to stay in bed; even if the WILD fails, there could be a DILD waiting in the wings!
Right, first go.
I realise I'm awake, 'ah, WILD time', I think. It's 4:40 and starting to get light, right then. I sit up in bed in a dazed sort of manner and record 3 dreams. I sit with the light off thinking dreamy thoughts, not a great deal of focus. 20 minutes later I lie back down on my side and think my 'maya' mantra on exhales and count from 1-10 repeatedly on the inhale, visualising each number. I'm really not sure if I did my mandala visualisation idea but I fell asleep after some light auditory hypnagogia.
I'm not sure if I woke myself satisfactorily during the WBTB for a WILD attempt.
I agree... you were likely never quite awake. Seems like you might have been a mite too groggy to focus properly, or even to gather up enough self-awareness for the dive. Next time maybe sit with the light on, perhaps do a RRC, and remember who you are and what exactly you're about to try to do...and of course do all that without "waking up" too much, which is also a challenge!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ctharlhie
When do you stop the mantra? At all thoughtout the attempt?
And how long should we expect it to take? An hour ir more?
Thanks
In essence you never stop the mantra -- it will stop itself once the dream starts. The mantra is a vehicle for navigation and focus, and you should make it the backdrop of your entire WILD. When the dream starts, you'll know the mantra is no longer necessary, and will likely have already stopped before you realize that you stopped reciting it ... I hope that made sense!Quote:
Originally Posted by ThAtaInTmE
How long should it take, max? That depends, of course, on the dreamer, but I would say that if your attempt lasts more than 1.5 hours, it might be time to give up... if you're awake that long, on top of the WBTB period, you're likely awake for the day, and there's no way back. There are exceptions to this rule, of course, and if you have the patience to last two hours or more, then go for it -- you might be rewarded with a LD, or at least a very long meditation session that will certainly have relaxed you!
...Just make sure it actually was 1,5 hours, and wasn't 25 minutes that seemed like 1,5 hours!
This morning I woke up naturally after 5 hours of sleep. I decided to give WILDing a go, so I stayed up for less than an hour. I recorded my dreams and went back to bed. I lay there very still, mentally doing my mantra while imagining lying on the beach, waves slowly moving up my body with every breath. I noticed soon enough that my breathing really slowed down, and it was quite nice because I've never done that relaxation technique before. I also noticed that my hands or feet would suddenly twitch, and I'm not quite sure if they really did or I was just imagining it. I continued doing my mantra for I don't know how long...
...then I fell asleep. I'm not quite sure how -- one moment I was focusing on staying awake, then the next, I can't remember.
So my first WILD attempt failed. I did, however have two lucids later on, the first one was a DILD and the second a DEILD.
I know you must get this a lot, but any techniques on how to avoid drifting off? I usually am awake until the HI starts. I don't really pay attention to them, but somehow I drift off very quickly when they start.
Set an alarm last night but I guess setting it was enough to fix my WBTB schedule, I naturally woke up 8 minutes before it went off and stayed up for about 20-25 before going back to bed and attempting a WILD.
I laid there for a while, eventually I started feeling a numb warmness coming up my body, starting at my toes. I tried my best to ignore it and just focus on my mantra etc, but soon I was really noticing the dryness of my throat and how uncomfortable my neck was, it was like my neck was being broken or something. I ignored it for as long as I can, saying to myself that if I got through it I would WILD, but the uncomfortableness became unbearable after a while so I had to break laying still to move. I looked at the time and despite feeling like 2 hours it had only been about a 45 minute attempt, I guess if I continued I would have WILDed.
Any tips on how to get over the really uncomfortable sensations?
Last night was even worse, I woke myself too much this time. Woke again through autosuggestion at 4:10, stayed up 30 minutes reading. Didn't feel like falling asleep and quickly gave up.
More fine tuning required :/
I think DEILD may be more my thing when we get round to that. I feel like WILD is this insurmountable obstacle to overcome, I'm sure my difficulties are psychological.
I've realised that 'maya' is not an effective mantra. I'd thought that stating my surroundings are an illusion would cue awareness but the mantra projects meaning externally rather than emphasising my own awareness.
Yep, I get that a lot -- including from myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by paigeyemps
I'm not sure there is a specific technique that defeats nature every time and lets you consistently stay awake straight into sleep. No, wait ... I am sure that there is no specific technique that defeats nature every time and lets you consistently "stay awake" straight into sleep without adhering to eons-old programming and drifting off naturally. Human beings are simply not meant to do that!
I think that may be the main purpose of this class: to present you with the collection of pieces I feel are necessary to open the door to more frequently successful WILD's; I suppose that makes it a technique itself, though I consider it more a state of mind.
Some of you have noted that these pieces -- self-awareness thru RRC's; working intentions, expectation and schemas; ignoring the noise; meaningful mantras -- are very difficult on their own, and very difficult to conduct as a group. I guess I was hoping that if I could give you the pieces necessary for a proper state of mind, the WILD might occur more easily -- but not every time; I still can't dot that myself.
So I suggest you be patient, keep trying to develop and coordinate all this stuff, with special attention to self-awareness, and remember always that WILD is far and away the most difficult technique with far and away the lowest success rate of the "big three (WILD, DILD,and MILD)." This is not easy stuff, and the bit you point out -- drifting off to sleep -- is the highest hurdle of them all...but it isn't impossibly high!
Sounds like your body had no interest in taking you to dreamland today, RareCola! I have a feeling that if you had toughed it out, you would have just gotten up, fallen asleep, or rolled over. Sometimes nature wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by RareCola
When "symptoms" start piling up like this, and you are truly uncomfortable, it is usually best to abandon the attempt: Get up, maybe stretch a bit, and then try again if you have time or inclination, or put off the attempt for another day. You also might take note of what might have made your neck hurt and your throat so dry, and try to prevent them in your next attempt (like changing pillows and keeping your mouth shut).
Also, a terribly unscientific note: I notice that you do an excellent job of tracking details. Though that is great for the notebooks and, yes, possibly a handy reference for what went wrong, it is easy to get caught up them, and WILD -- being a "big picture" event, consciously -- tends to be defeated by details. Try to file the details with the noise, if you can.
I have a feeling that this class might just evolve into a DEILD class on it's own, Ctharlhie. The mental tools are the same (DEILD really is WILD), and there is so much less work involved! So if we've got all those tools down, DEILD should be much more accessable -- with the same sort of dreams resulting, I think. I was going to open session one of this class saying that WILD is very, very hard -- almost insurmountable -- as I have in so many of my posts about it, but I decided not to be so negative at the start. I figured that would occur to you guys soon enough! However, by learning the hard version first -- classic WILD -- you might find the simpler version -- DEILD -- more accessible ... at least that was the plan!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ctharlhie
Interesting discovery -- I promise I won't say "I told you so!" :cheeky:Quote:
I've realised that 'maya' is not an effective mantra. I'd thought that stating my surroundings are an illusion would cue awareness but the mantra projects meaning externally rather than emphasising my own awareness.
Well today I tried to lengthen my WBTB ,but I didn't wake up so with an attitude of "like hell I am going to give up now!" I WBTB at probably 13:00-14:00 (no I don't think it is a great Idea ,but I thought that I can at least try to fall asleep aware). So I was lying in my bed for some time and then slowly I started to hear a wind like sound which resembled the sound of a flute playing in my ear like it was whispering to me. I then felt like a bobble of invisible water forming in my hand and then it got heavy and my hand became numb. Now my sister suddenly decided she must scream at her friend in her phone so I couldn't really continue from there . So I shacked my right hand which was numb and 'woke up'. Now I am not sure if I was even asleep because my hand could be numb because it was supporting my head (even though my left hand was also supporting my head and didn't become numb) and maybe I did actually hear the air conditioner (even though it was a little different). The thing is that I don't know if I was asleep and I am not sure how does it feels exactly so I can't really tell the difference even though some strange things happened like I for a moment I felt that my hand my hand is beside my body even though I was 100% it is under my head. So Sageous is there a chance I was sleeping durning that time?
Is it possible to WILD without REM? My mind starts to wander a lot and I often get mini dreams on my way to falling asleep, which is how I know I'm close to falling asleep. However I'm always unconsciousness during them and they usually only happen when I'm first going to sleep, before hitting the REM stage. Also, what exactly is the "Rollover Signal"? The only time I really want to roll over is when my back starts getting uncomfortable, but I've stayed still for over half an hour like that and still didn't hit SP.
Also @Beefer, I've been through that a few times, where you're not sure if it was sleep or not. Sounds like you might have been, but it's possible you weren't, it's hard to tell. The whole heavy bubble around your head thing sounds like a SP kind of effect to me, from what I've experienced.
Bah, it seems so obvious now :lol: And it is exactly what you were saying from the beginning. But I suppose I needed to find it out for myself and I can work towards a better mantra now :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Those mini dreams are hypnagogia that accompany the onset of Non-REM stage 1 sleep. However, lying for over half an hour means you are not falling asleep. You might have read that WILDing is lying still and resisting the mysterious 'rollover signal' until you're magically sucked into sleep paralysis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triforce
The 'rollover signal' is controversial. Personally I don't put any stock in it. (I prefer to call it by the old-fashioned term 'discomfort' ;)). But really I see it as something coined by Nick Newport of Lucidology 101 to lend his pseudo-science marketing shtick credibility so he sell you his misinformed 'OBE tricks'. If you're unfamiliar with the videos don't seek them out, they're practically the opposite of what's being taught here, it's a shame his cynical brand of misinformation seems to have had so much mileage.
You likely weren't quite sleeping yet, but keep in mind that whether you were sleeping or not doesn't really matter, if you still possessed waking awareness (which you did). However, you asked an interesting question about which I'd never before given much thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefer
I think that in a very real sense you cannot tell whether you are sleeping; you can only tell that you are awake, or dreaming. The actual physical "sleep" is occurring throughout your WILD dive, and -- if the WILD is successful -- you are going to be asleep during it, and just before your dream starts. But actually "knowing" you are asleep is not very important -- don't let curiosity about that distract you; when you're in the dream, it'll be obvious that you're asleep. Your specific condition before that does not matter.
I guess the right thing to do here is rephrase the question: whether you are asleep or not is not the question, whether you lose waking awareness or not while falling asleep is the question...or at least all that matters in WILD!
I hope that made sense
First, listen to Chtarlhie, Triforce; his answer is spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triforce
Now:
Yes, it is possible to WILD in NREM, or delta sleep, but it isn't easy, involves a different sort of timing, and the fabric of the NREM dream is much different than Hypnagogic Imagery or normal dreams ... in other words, if you do some NREM WILDing, you'll likely know you're doing it, and will have made a special preplanned effort to get there. So, as Ctharlhie said, those mini dreams are likely HI , which is quite normal.
As far as I know, there is no "rollover signal." In fact, today is the first time I've heard, or noticed, the term. Yes, your body gets uncomfortable being in the same position for a long time, and you'll have an urge to shift position -- thus opening the door to easier natural sleep, which is why you shouldn't do it. But I really don't think there is an official "rollover signal." So if you never get one, you aren't missing anything!
I was really bored, at about 2:50 PM, so I decided to give WILD a go, even thought it wasn't the optimal time for it. You can do WILD during a nap, right? Anyway, I laid there for about 20 minutes, but there were too many noises and distractions in my house to concentrate, so I gave up. I'm going to try legitimately tonight, though, with a WBTB.
I think I almost succeeded at a DEILD this morning. I had a DILD which ended after 2 seconds of realising it was a dream, so I laid there and tried re-entry with DEILD. I think I came close because I had that same "numbing" feeling sweep over me, and I had ridiculously vivid HI of a tiger for some reason. I think the noise in my house combined with my excitement of almost entering a dream from the waking state made me fail though, because I quickly lost it.