What happened? Post Your WILD Attempts, Good or Bad, Here

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ That's a pretty decent attempt, Buckey -- I can only add a couple of notes about time...

Three tries is not very many; give it a few more before you get concerned. Also, 20 minutes is not a long time; if you find yourself taking an hour and a half or more to fall asleep, then you should become concerned and maybe move look to DILD for your transition to LD.

But until then, stick to your WBTB pattern until you are sure you can't get back to sleep... 3 hrs is not a long time to sleep, so you might be too early in your sleep cycle if you WBTB then, inviting a return to extra NREM and other difficulties.

WILD is a game of patience, if nothing else. So be patient: give yourself a few (or many) more attempts before disappointment sets in, and be willing to hold still for up to 2hrs before giving up. Both of those things can be annoying, but they are worth the effort -- especially when you seem to be doing everything else correctly!

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Thanks for the reply! I just thought once you hit that 20 minute mark that not much would happen afterwards. That helps more. :)

Also, I feel like I will have more of a chance to LD with the WILD method. DILD, personally, seems like a much harder method because you're basically leaving it up to your brain whether you lucid. With WILD, it seems more like you are the one who gets to decide, "Hey, I am going to physically choose to put myself into a Lucid Dream."

If I have to wait two hours, then that's what I'll do. I just assumed after twenty minutes it's go big or go home. >.<

Hi Sageous! :sageous:

Thank you for all sorts of things - I'm posting here unfortunately not because I WILDed, but to tell you your pm store is full.
But maybe I will, I felt that staying at my parents in law did help me with LDing last time, maybe the different environment...
Giving it a few more tries is definitely on my menu.

I tried a new variation to the final phase of the dive. It worked like a charm!
I read it in a LDing supplementary book(the author is a passionate WILDer :D)
When I reached a deep point in the dive, where the dream sensations can start forming, I started walking. Not actual or imaginative walking, but rather feeling my legs moving without actually moving them; like FILD but with feet and walking. It started feeling more real and real, and I think I started feeling pressure from the ground like you would when regular walking, though this pressure part might be a memory I'm mixing with my meditation of walking on the beach I did the day before this WILD. Anyways, it started to become very real that I doubted that I might be actually moving my own feet to the extent that I was ready to stop and get up, thinking I ruined the WILD by actually moving, but luckily the dream formed before I did so!
For the actual dream, I can't remember much lol

Oh steph, you're here! Watch out, I'm gonna reach your level and beat your count!! It's 15- day vacation that starts tomorrow, so be ready to eat the dust!
I'm getting good at DEILD! Every time I attempt to LD(I'm actually starting to succeed almost every time, I thank especially the PM training, but I'm only in the mood like once a week cuz dream vividness is frustrating me, thou I'm working on that)..where was I? Oh yeah, I'm getting like 3-4 chains each time I have a LD! So you'd better be scared steph!!!!!! :mwahaha:

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Originally Posted by StephL

Thank you for all sorts of things - I'm posting here unfortunately not because I WILDed, but to tell you your pm store is full.
But maybe I will, I felt that staying at my parents in law did help me with LDing last time, maybe the different environment...
Giving it a few more tries is definitely on my menu.

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Thanks Steph! Yeah, I noticed my PM folders were full when it wouldn't let me send a message this morning -- had to do some cleaning.

Yes, a change of environment can sometimes get your head in the right place to LD -- especially if it's a place where you are not entirely comfortable and your unconscious is a bit more on edge, and maybe just a bit more receptive to "coaching" from its waking-life mind, leading to an openness to LD... if that makes any sense.

Good luck!

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Originally Posted by LouaiB

I tried a new variation to the final phase of the dive. It worked like a charm!
I read it in a LDing supplementary book(the author is a passionate WILDer :D)
When I reached a deep point in the dive, where the dream sensations can start forming, I started walking. Not actual or imaginative walking, but rather feeling my legs moving without actually moving them; like FILD but with feet and walking. It started feeling more real and real, and I think I started feeling pressure from the ground like you would when regular walking, though this pressure part might be a memory I'm mixing with my meditation of walking on the beach I did the day before this WILD. Anyways, it started to become very real that I doubted that I might be actually moving my own feet to the extent that I was ready to stop and get up, thinking I ruined the WILD by actually moving, but luckily the dream formed before I did so!

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Excellent bit of visualizing, Louai, thanks for sharing! If you try this again, be sure to also remember that your actual legs aren't moving, and your physical body is not walking anywhere -- just keep that thought in the back of your mind, and you might avoid that bit of confusion you ran into at the end of the transition... you also might avoid false awakenings or NLD's about walking on beaches, too.

Sageous,

This question may have already been asked but I really need your assistance. I have always had insomnia and I just have a quick question regarding the amount of sleep time someone like me would need before waking up and doing a WBTB.

Quick Background:

I can live on very little sleep and function just fine like this. I normally only get about 4-5 hours of sleep a day. I am a college professor, so I will sleep my usual 4-5 hours and wake up and go to work and teach 3-4 classes a day. Never once feeling exhausted...almost as if I have an adrenaline rush the entire day. By the time I get home, it takes a lot for me to wind down or as I say, 'decompress.' My mind is still going and finally by 12:00am or 1:00am, I will make myself go to sleep. On top of this I am a very light sleeper. The least little noise will wake me up and sometimes it takes me a long time to go back to sleep. So I usually sleep only 4-5 hours at the most. After that, I can't not stay in the bed any longer.

I am on prescription medication for my insomnia, but I don't like to take it when I am attempting lucid dreaming because the meds knock me straight out. The medication also causes me to have Amnesia and I don't remember anything I was doing before I even went to bed. I have taken this medication (Ambien) before and the next day people would call me and tell me that I had the most ridiculous converstation on the phone with them...and I don't even remember talking to them. One time my son caught me cooking in the kitchen after taking this medication and I almost burned down the house. When my son told me about it the next day, I couldn't even remember anything and I didn't believe him...until I saw the video he taped on his phone. I looked like a mad woman! In the video, my husband had to take me by the hand and lead me out of the kitchen and into the bed. He held my hand until I went to sleep because I kept trying to get up and do things. So as you can see, I play it safe and just deal with the insomnia.

My WBTB sessions can only be mere seconds or I will be up for the rest of the night. Usually, I run to the bathroom or take a sip of water and stumble back to bed with all of this being done in the dark. In the past, several of my WILD sessions have always been during naps. I have come to realize that I must be so sleepy that I can barely keep my eyes open for my WILD's to work and this is usually when I lay down for a nap. I can literally go 48 hours without sleeping :cantsleep:.

So here is my question: What is the least amount of time (for me to go through the necessary sleep cycles) that I should sleep before I do a WBTB?

Any other advise you have would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. I have worked in a hospital as a clinician all my life for the last 22 years before I started teaching. As you know, hospitals never close so you get use to being 'on-call,' drinking a lot of coffee, and working long hours with very little sleep.

:thanks:

^^ That's a tough question, Bemistaken! Given that getting (back) to sleep is the most important part of a WILD, you are indeed facing a bit of a hurdle.

If your sleep cycle consistently lasts 4-5 hours, then I would bet that a WBTB at the very tail end of that (maybe after 4 hrs) might be the same for you as would doing one after 5-6 hrs of a "normal" night's sleep. This is a total guess, of course, based on your saying that your night's sleep feels complete after 4-5 hrs. I personally do not recommend forcing yourself awake anytime before that (especially in your case, where you likely need every minute of sleep you're getting), but if you do attempt to get up, you should make sure that you get at least 3 hrs of sleep so that you're guaranteed some restorative NREM and at least one REM period of "normal" sleep. Okay, there's your answer, I guess... however:

Your description of your WBTB sounds more like a stretched-out DEILD than an actual classic WILD w/WBTB. This is just fine, of course, if it's getting you lucid; I do DEILD's like this quite often, BTW. But:

If you want to do a "real" WILD (though why you would I haven't a clue, if that DEILD is working for you), you ought to try staying up for a few minutes at least. Stay sleepy and keep your thoughts dreamy, but give your mind a chance to gather some waking-life self-awareness before heading back to bed (that's what WBTB is for, in my opinion).

With all that said, I had another thought: if you are able to get back to sleep after your normal 4-5 hours, you might consider attempting your WILD after you wake up normally (5+ hrs). Your body might still be interested in offering up some REM, even if it's done with sleep, and if it is, that REM would be hard to miss. But of course that "if" just above is a big one: if you definitely cannot get back to sleep, then trying this is not a good idea (you may have already gone this route, now that I think about it. You also could try a dose of melatonin to help you sleep, rather than the powerful stuff you described above. It won't do much, but it might be that small push you need to get back to sleep (take it the night before you attempt your WILD).

Also, don't forget that there is always DILD. Given your short sleep cycle, this might be just the thing for you, because you can do MILD right at bedtime, confident that your dreams are not far off. I'm guessing you already know this as well, but I figured I'd mention it.

tl;dr: Try a WBTB after waking up normally, and don't sleep less than 3 hrs if you know you won't go back to sleep after waking up normally.

I hope that helped, and that I didn't just tell you lots of things you already know.

Good luck!

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Your description of your WBTB sounds more like a stretched-out DEILD than an actual classic WILD w/WBTB. This is just fine, of course, if it's getting you lucid; I do DEILD's like this quite often, BTW. But:

If you want to do a "real" WILD (though why you would I haven't a clue, if that DEILD is working for you), you ought to try staying up for a few minutes at least. Stay sleepy and keep your thoughts dreamy, but give your mind a chance to gather some waking-life self-awareness before heading back to bed (that's what WBTB is for, in my opinion).

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Thanks :sageous:!
I am sure you are correct about the stretched out DEILD. I have been so worried about now getting back to sleep that I haven't even tried extending my WBTB. This may be the 'something different' that I need to try.

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With all that said, I had another thought: if you are able to get back to sleep after your normal 4-5 hours, you might consider attempting your WILD after you wake up normally (5+ hrs). Your body might still be interested in offering up some REM, even if it's done with sleep, and if it is, that REM would be hard to miss. But of course that "if" just above is a big one: if you definitely cannot get back to sleep, then trying this is not a good idea (you may have already gone this route, now that I think about it. You also could try a dose of melatonin to help you sleep, rather than the powerful stuff you described above. It won't do much, but it might be that small push you need to get back to sleep (take it the night before you attempt your WILD).

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I believe that I am going to practice relaxation techniques more in the hopes that this will allow me to stay sleep a little longer. My doctor did mention that relaxation exercises may help with my insomnia (I'm anxious by nature). If I can sleep a little longer, then maybe I will be able to take advantage REM...it is worth a try.

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Also, don't forget that there is always DILD. Given your short sleep cycle, this might be just the thing for you, because you can do MILD right at bedtime, confident that your dreams are not far off. I'm guessing you already know this as well, but I figured I'd mention it.

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Thanks for mentioning...at this point I will take any kind of technique to get lucid. I have not had much luck with DILD's, but I will continue to focus on my ADA in hopes that this will benefit me with DILD's.

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I hope that helped, and that I didn't just tell you lots of things you already know.

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You have helped me a great deal! I have been so afraid of not being able to sleep, after reading your advise I believe I have just jinked myself into believing that I won't go to sleep after a slightly longer WBTB. Now, I also believe that my pitiful 4-5 hours of sleep a day is just not enough. Even though I may feel like it is during the day, it isn't efficient enough for my brain to have adequate rest. I believe that is why I am not as sharp as I should be when it comes to maintaining awareness in my dreams. My goal now is to make sure I am getting enough sleep! Like you have said in the past, you can't WILD unless you go to sleep.

New Focus:
Sleep a little longer than 4 hours, but do not sleep less than 3 hours.
Extend WBTB by a few more minutes after waking up normally.
Don't give up on DILDs and MILDs.
and
RELAX!

I will keep you posted and :thanks:!

A MIRACLE ON MY STREET!

:sageous:, I did it! I don't know what technique I used (beside DEILD), but maybe you can tell me what I started off using.

Here is what happened:

Stayed up until 5am wrapping presents and cooking Christmas dinner. My kids woke me up at 8:00am (so yes, just like you told me not to do, I slept for only 3 hours). Thank GOD my kids and husband were going to a family members house where others were gathering for Christmas breakfast. I was using my ,"I had to stay up all night cooking and wrap presents by myself" as an excuse for them to leave me alone. It worked, because they all left by 11:00am. I thought to myself, "Could a WBTB even be possible? I have been up for 1 ½ hours for a so called WBTB and felt a little more alert than my usual WBTB." Even though I was up watching them open presents, I still felt that I could go back to sleep, but it would take an effort. So, I gave it a shot. I laid back down in the bed and continued to repeat a shorter mantra, "I am Lucid" and "I am aware." Kids next door was making noise riding their new bicycles, but I was determined to see if this super long WBTB would work. So, I moved to the back of the house in another bedroom and kept back at it with the mantra. I remember you said that something HAS to happen if you just stay aware on the edge of sleep and keep your anchor (or did you say mantra?). So, I was not giving up on this experiment. I kept at the mantra. Then, the magic happened...:dreaming:

It seems like I may have been napping, maybe 45min to 1 hour. I keep bobbing in and out of consciousness. But I held onto the mantra! I would say a mere 15-20 minutes in I 'free fell' into some strong vibrations! I knew this was IT because vibrations are my signature sign. I lay still until I felt myself float out :flyaway:. "Finally!" I thought. I came out into darkness, but I didn't even care...I was blind, happy, and out! Then of course you know what happened next...my excitement sucked me right back into my body. I DEILD my way back out by being still and this time when I came out I asked for sight. I got a little clarity and I remembered my rehearsed plan. I came out into my bedroom and I saw a pillow and focused on that and things got a little better with my sight. I hadn't been lucid in so long I was moving like a floppy rag doll. Got frustrated and lost focused and went back into my body (Damn it!). Third time has always been the charm for me to I lay still again and the vibrations came back, but they were weak. I thought to myself, calm down, be still, focus on your third eye. Vibes grew stronger and I was able to get out again! I focused on my exact rehearsed plan by the letter. Somehow, I ended up in my bedroom closet (probably because I just got out the hidden Christmas present that night and took them out in the wee hours of this morning). I was thinking to myself, "Keep cool and follow your rehearsed plan...and hurry up!" When all else seems to fail me, my back-up plan is to always just practice moving or flying around and/or touching things in close proximity. I stuck out my arm and started flying around like a drunk superman :superman:. I went through my bedroom wall and flew into what looked like my yard (not sure). I don't know how, but I ended up back in my bedroom...I tried to focus on my bed but my lucid eyes slowly became my physical eyes and I was back in my body. Not willing to push my luck, I got up and grabbed my journal on my bedside table and thanked GOD and THE WIZARD...:sageous:!

A few questions Sageous:

1. What technique did I start off with (I know I was using MILD, but when I first became Lucid, was it a DEILD or WILD), I know I continued to link the lucids with DEILDS.
2. What information can you give me regarding the extended WBTB? Was this just luck? Did I take advantage of sleeping a little longer and gain the benefit of the Lucid?
3. What could I have done better? It seems that I am always coming out blind or in darkness...what should I have done different?

Sorry this was so long, but I know someone out there is frustrated just like I was and I don't want them to give up! Keep practicing, keep asking questions to the facilitators, moderators, guides, and members, and most important KEEP BELIEVING...no matter how long it takes, it will happen!

Again, thank you for your knowledge and thorough advise. :kiss:

One Love.
Bemis taken

^^ Nice work...Sounds like an exciting time, and way to take the initiative!

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Originally Posted by bemistaken

A few questions:

1. What technique did I start off with (I know I was using MILD, but when I first became Lucid, was it a DEILD or WILD), I know I continued to link the lucids with DEILDS.
2. What information can you give me regarding the extended WBTB? Was this just luck? Did I take advantage of sleeping a little longer and gain the benefit of the Lucid?
3. What could I have done better? It seems that I am always coming out blind or in darkness...what should I have done different?

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1. It seemed that the technique you used was one meant to induce a WILD (remember that WILD/DEILD and DILD are not techniques, but descriptors for the actual transitions to lucidity), given that you seemed to be laying down with the full intention of holding onto your self-awareness until you were asleep and dreaming. Much of MILD works nicely in a WILD attempt, so you certainly could have been doing some of that on your way to a WILD. Regarding your initial moment of lucidity, I was initially thinking it was a DILD (nothing wrong w/ that, BTW) due to that lapse into napping, but you did hang onto your mantra, and now I'm confident that you simply resumed your WILD attempt when you drifted back from your doze. So WILD it was, and well done!

2. I have a feeling that the length of your WBTB, not to mention the waking-life distractions of Christmas morning, was completely negated by your overriding desire to have a LD. In other words. even if your sleep cycle had completely ended, and you were laying down at 11 just for a nap, your intentions and expectations were more than strong enough to keep your dreaming mind in the game, and your body was still very much in the mood for more sleep. So not so much "just luck," I think. [A quick aside: I got a little confused about the actual length of your WBTB: if it was 3 hrs long (8 to 11) as my math concluded from your report, then that is quite extended and you probably left WBTB territory and were actually settling down for a nap; but if your WBTB was 1.5 hrs as you wrote, that is still a reasonable length of "up" time for a WBTB.]

3. You could perhaps have relaxed a bit more, inviting a confident calm that might have minimized your excitement and kept you from losing lucidity or waking up. Also, I should insert here my usual note to try to avoid making the noise too important; those vibrations might be an excellent signpost for your upcoming dream, but don't forget about the dream itself! Which brings me to the important bit:

If you wind up back in your room (or closet, I suppose) come dreamtime, or have some trouble gathering your goals, try this: close your dream-body eyes, relax, and just try to visualize the place you really want to be in your dream. Then open your eyes and just know that you will no longer be in your room. Emerging from a WILD in your room tends to imply that your dreaming mind did not have enough opportunity to spool up a desired or more interesting dream schema; taking that thoughtful pause might give it time to adjust. There is an excellent chance that you were not quite in REM yet as well, s that spooling might take a bit longer -- give it a chance, and try not to let that bedroom scene become the dream schema.

Also, if the eyes closed thing does not work, then try again, this time turning around before opening them ...and if it doesn't work again, try just leaving the room, as you ultimately did anyway. All you really need to do is remember where you want to be, and then calmly and confidently allow your dreaming mind to bring you to that place... and, if your dreaming mind is totally recalcitrant (which happens at naptime occasionally), your instinct to try something else and just leave is a good one -- bit do so with an expectation of arriving somewhere new when you fly out of your room.

What you do not want to do is get anxious or feel hurried, as that only increases a tendency to lose lucidity and even wake up. Plant yourself firmly in the Here&Now, and enjoy your lucid adventure without concern for its inevitable conclusion; anxiety about losing lucidity only tends to hasten its exit. Now, being in the moment does not mean you should not remember things (like where your waking-life body is, or what your dream goals are), so don't abandon everything; indeed, you might just try remembering your goals, rather than concern yourself with achieving them before time runs out.

I hope all this helped, of course, but keep in mind that what really will help is the confidence you gain from experience -- and this one seemed an excellent confidence-builder!

Hi Sageous!

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So WILD it was, and well done!

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:boogie: Yeah! For you to say it was an actual WILD means a lot to me. I want to make sure that I am actually using the correct descriptions and I gain experience from those events.

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[A quick aside: I got a little confused about the actual length of your WBTB: if it was 3 hrs long (8 to 11) as my math concluded from your report, then that is quite extended and you probably left WBTB territory and were actually settling down for a nap; but if your WBTB was 1.5 hrs as you wrote, that is still a reasonable length of "up" time for a WBTB.]

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Yes, I see how that can be confusing. I believe that while they were actually opening presents, I kept dozing off closing my eyes because I was really still sleepy. I feel like that I was actually truly coherent for only 1 ½ of those 3 hours. While they were opening presents I believe I would doze off until they said, "Look what I got Mom!" And then as sleepy parents do on Christmas morning, I snapped out of my doze like I was paying attention the whole time and said, "Oh, great!" and faded back out until they opened the next one. So, I believe I was truly awake for only 1 ½ of those 3 hours. By the time they left around 11:00am, I thought maybe I was 'up' too long for a WBTB, but I was still a little sleepy, so I said, what the hell...just try.

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If you wind up back in your room (or closet, I suppose) come dreamtime, or have some trouble gathering your goals, try this: close your dream-body eyes, relax, and just try to visualize the place you really want to be in your dream. Then open your eyes and just know that you will no longer be in your room. Emerging from a WILD in your room tends to imply that your dreaming mind did not have enough opportunity to spool up a desired or more interesting dream schema; taking that thoughtful pause might give it time to adjust. There is an excellent chance that you were not quite in REM yet as well, s that spooling might take a bit longer -- give it a chance, and try not to let that bedroom scene become the dream schema.

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Sageous, you hit my weakness on the nose! I don't know what to do when I end up in my room (btw, this happens ALL THE TIME). I have only been able to visualize me being somewhere once. That is when :canislucidus: taught me how to go to Egypt by closing my eyes and imagining when I open them, I will be in Egypt. You are correct, my bedroom scene seems to through me off into thinking something is not working and then after this thought I lose my confidence...everything seems to go downhill from there. I feel like I have to get out of my waking life environment (my basic bedroom or closet) for my lucid mind to be strong enough to maintain the lucidity. Next time, I will try taking that pause as you suggested and visualize.

I almost always seem to come out blind or in total darkness. One time when I ended up 'in the black/void' I remember reading that someone said to just fall backwards (Baptism style with my arms folded across my chest) and I did...and I still ended up in my bedroom, however; everything was much clearer and I actually saw myself laying in the bed. I believe I am constantly ending up in my bedroom is because this is where I spend the majority of my time. My bedroom is my office, my den, my library...now that I think about it, it is everything but a bedroom! I may need to make some changes and perform work activities outside my bedroom and use my bedroom for what is was meant for.

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What you do not want to do is get anxious or feel hurried, as that only increases a tendency to lose lucidity and even wake up. Plant yourself firmly in the Here&Now, and enjoy your lucid adventure without concern for its inevitable conclusion; anxiety about losing lucidity only tends to hasten its exit.

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This statement has 'me' written all over it. Before I am lucid, I practice, rehearse, and tell myself constantly what I plan on doing. Then when I am lucid, this is what happens...:bliss:.

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keep in mind that what really will help is the confidence you gain from experience

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I will! I am grateful for everything...my failures and successes. Really, there are no failures, just opportunities to learn! I will keep you posted and again, thank you Sageous.

Hi Sageous! It's been a long time since I posted here. ^^

I've recently gotten back into WILDing seriously. Yesterday, I would have said that I had a problem falling asleep too quickly after WBTB, not even being able to start focusing on my anchor.
However, during last night's attempt, I got farther than I have gotten in a while.

Since I fall asleep way to quickly after WBTB (and I move way to darn much), I stayed up for around 12 minutes (I was trying to stay up for 20, but got bored). (My WBTB time is after 5 hours and 30 minutes) I then layed down and focused on the noise of the loud fan in my room.

After about 15 minutes, letting my mind wander and passively focusing on the noise of the fan, I found my body to be in a completely relaxed state. I was totally numb; I hadn't moved once. This is the first time in a long time I have gotten that far.

But then, I didn't know what to do next. I'm not sure how long I stayed "numb", because I must have lost consciousness. I don't remember getting past the numbness. (And yes, I do remember not to aim for the "noise" of SP/HH/HI, but I see it as a sort of milestone; since I hadn't really ever reached it before)

I woke up around 2 hours later (I checked the clock afterwards), still completely numb, in the same position. (I don't remember coming out of a dream, though) I tried to just keep relaxing, not really sure what to do. I kept focusing on the fan noise. I tried to look at the back of my eyelids for HI patterns or anything, but I didn't really see anything except black "swirlies". After about a minute, I knew that it was probably almost time to get up for the day. So I rolled over to my left side very gently. I was still very much relaxed. Suddenly, something I've never really experienced before happened. Instead of just the back of my eyelids being dark, it almost looked like a very very very dim grey light was flickering on and off, in random patterns in my vision.

I then lost consciousness.

So.. I guess my question is this:

What do I do when I feel completely numb and nothing is really happening? Should I just keep still and wait?
And, do you think that "flickering light" was the very early onset of HI?

Thanks!

I have piece of advice that may appear completely counterintuitive: rollover! Next time you find yourself feeling as though nothing is happening, make a deliberate movement and newly resolve to observe your anchor. Sleep may only be a few minutes away and your impatience will keep you from transitioning. Falling asleep with awareness is hard when you're focussing on milestones.

Hi Sydney! Nice to see that you're still in the game!

I really do not need to add anything to Ctharlhie's advice, but I'm here, so:

You might want to try occupying your WBTB time with some dreamy thoughts or activities, just so you don't get bored; just stay away from distractions like TV's phones, and intense conversation, and keep your mind as peaceful and focused on your upcoming WILD as you can.

From your description it sounds like you were moving along just fine, and merely left your dive a bit early -- your body may have only needed to fall fully asleep, and that might have been pretty close. WILD can require a lot of patience, so it's a good idea to have plenty available when you start your dive. Also, you should always have your upcoming dream in mind, both so you have something to think about when the minutes start to stretch, and so you can more easily form your dream when the time comes.

Finally, it's best to do your WILD attempts on days when you don't have to be concerned about when it's time to get up.

Anyway, nice to see you're still trying, and are progressing; I hope you'll share when you finally complete your WILD dive!

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Hi Sydney! Nice to see that you're still in the game!

I really do not need to add anything to Ctharlhie's advice, but I'm here, so:

You might want to try occupying your WBTB time with some dreamy thoughts or activities, just so you don't get bored; just stay away from distractions like TV's phones, and intense conversation, and keep your mind as peaceful and focused on your upcoming WILD as you can.

From your description it sounds like you were moving along just fine, and merely left your dive a bit early -- your body may have only needed to fall fully asleep, and that might have been pretty close. WILD can require a lot of patience, so it's a good idea to have plenty available when you start your dive. Also, you should always have your upcoming dream in mind, both so you have something to think about when the minutes start to stretch, and so you can more easily form your dream when the time comes.

Finally, it's best to do your WILD attempts on days when you don't have to be concerned about when it's time to get up.

Anyway, nice to see you're still trying, and are progressing; I hope you'll share when you finally complete your WILD dive!

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Alright, so; If I encounter that completely numb feeling again, the best thing I can do is just roll over? Because I'm supposed to be focused on falling asleep?
And ok, I'll be sure to occupy my WBTB time!

Thanks for the advice, Sageous and Ctharlhie! ^^

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Originally Posted by Sydney

Alright, so; If I encounter that completely numb feeling again, the best thing I can do is just roll over? Because I'm supposed to be focused on falling asleep?

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Sure; mostly.

Yes, try rolling over, but also be sure to keep your focus on your upcoming dream, using your mantra/anchor, and simply allow, patiently, your body to fall asleep around you. In other words, stay focused on your WILD, and try not to focus on falling asleep. Focusing on falling asleep can be a distraction and, ironically, might cause you to stay awake even longer.

Good luck with your next dive!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Sure; mostly.

Yes, try rolling over, but also be sure to keep your focus on your upcoming dream, using your mantra/anchor, and simply allow, patiently, your body to fall asleep around you. In other words, stay focused on your WILD, and try not to focus on falling asleep. Focusing on falling asleep can be a distraction and, ironically, might cause you to stay awake even longer.

Good luck with your next dive!

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Okay, thanks for the advice! ^^

That's true... I usually focus on "falling asleep" too much; instead of the actual WILD. I also don't tend to start my mantra until I "feel" like I should, and by that time I've usually lost too much awareness (but if I had started my mantra/anchor, I would have been aware XD).

Last night's attempt I didn't have as much awareness, probably because I still had the sort of groggy/foggy feeling upon returning to bed.

Oh; I've been meaning to ask this. Is 2 anchors too much? My main one is focusing on noise (fan noise), but if I add in a mantra; do you think that would keep me too awake?

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Originally Posted by Sydney

Oh; I've been meaning to ask this. Is 2 anchors too much? My main one is focusing on noise (fan noise), but if I add in a mantra; do you think that would keep me too awake?

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Normally 2 anchors is one too many, but in this case, where one of your anchors -- the fan -- is nonverbal and fairly subtle, using a mantra on top of remembering the fan seems okay. Also, I think the result of too many anchors, or trying to keep too many things in your head at the same time, would not be staying awake but falling asleep. This is because by doing so you might get confused or disinterested in continuing the thought-juggling act, and simply drift off to sleep.

Okay, so last night's attempt was a little different.

I finally stayed up for 20 minutes during my WBTB. I wasn't groggy up on returning to sleep (which actually didn't help much; I had to use reverse blinking in order for my eyes to be tired enough). I started to use my mantra and passively focus on the fan noise. The attempt was going great, I was passively focusing on both of those while letting my mind wander; even after 10 minutes or so I was still remembering my mantra. I was still in the same position as I had been in, and I was almost fully numb. However, a very uncomfortable, aching feeling came over me. Like, I just really wanted to roll over. So I did. Even when I started out in a sleeping position as comfortable as I could get it, after around 5 minutes or so, the very uncomfortable, aching feeling would come back, and I would have to move/roll over again. This happened maybe 5 times;on my back, roll over to my right side, to my stomach, to my left side... eventually I must have lost focus and fell asleep.

What was that uncomfortable feeling? It was like a full body ache, strange. Should I just have stuck through it, even though it kept happening? At that rate, I felt like I wouldn't lay still long enough for my body to fall asleep.

I need someone to help me out here.
So I attempted a WILD (I rarely attempt WILDs by the way, in case that makes a difference?) after sleeping for about 6-7 hours, I did a WBTB for about 12 mins. As soon as I lay back down, I don't really feel anything. I occasionally have to swallow a lot as it's really hard for me not to. If I don't swallow, I do start choking. After 10 mins, I start counting myself to lucidity by saying "one I'm dreaming, two I'm dreaming, etc". However, everytime I do end up almost dozing off, I immediately remember that I'm trying to become lucid and snap out of the doze state. Unfortunately, this continues on for 30-40 min. Yes, I actually tried lying still that long. I sometimes feel like I'm falling down. But that sensation ends abruptly and re-occurs every so often. After a few more minutes, I get a strange non-voluntary muscle movement coming from my neck (the swallowing muscles....?) where it feels like 3 pumps or 3 dry swallows. This sensation surprises and I end up opening my eyes and ruining my WILD and resulting in insomnia the rest of the night :facepalm:

Any thoughts on what I can do to improve it? Also, I did experience very little hypnagogic imagery. How helpful is hypnagogic imagery? And do you think I at least have somewhat of a right idea on how I might need to attempt WILD? Thanks! :sheepishgrin:

to sydny:

there are several reason for it....(force to roll over)

first reason: i just echo it from a Tibetan Lama:

when we are close to any phase phenomena (like LD, OBE, Astral projection), the energy pathway inside our chakras is aligning to a new form and much energy is flooding...if we have any energy blocks, there might be huge interaction in that area which will lead to uncomfortable feelings there...we should give it a while to pass...but, by rolling over, we just disturb the alignment of energy in our body while the problem is still there (the energy blocks) and we just suppress this interaction....

another reason:

also there might be some brain signals to check if our mind is sleep or not before it allows our body to paralyses...

LOL....i know it is a bit complex but that is as far as we know, sister!

Sydney & Dreambeard, as I read your posts I heard those lines the Grinch said in How the Grinch Stole Christmas: "And the noise, the noise, the noise!"

Seriously, guys, you really should try very hard to stop paying so much attention to the physical things that are going on during your WILD attempt, and try even harder to pay attention to your upcoming dream. Too much focus on the noise (i.e., HI, "SP," physical events like discomfort or swallowing) is almost a guarantee that you will not WILD. So try to avoid the distraction of what's going on around you, and make your desired LD the focus of your attention.

Now, more specifically:

Sydney:

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Originally Posted by Sydney

I finally stayed up for 20 minutes during my WBTB. I wasn't groggy up on returning to sleep (which actually didn't help much; I had to use reverse blinking in order for my eyes to be tired enough). I started to use my mantra and passively focus on the fan noise. The attempt was going great, I was passively focusing on both of those while letting my mind wander; even after 10 minutes or so I was still remembering my mantra.

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You started out in great shape, and things seemed to be going quite well for you -- good decisions all around, and great job staying up a bit longer and holding your focus. But then this happened:

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I was still in the same position as I had been in, and I was almost fully numb. However, a very uncomfortable, aching feeling came over me. Like, I just really wanted to roll over. So I did. Even when I started out in a sleeping position as comfortable as I could get it, after around 5 minutes or so, the very uncomfortable, aching feeling would come back, and I would have to move/roll over again. This happened maybe 5 times;on my back, roll over to my right side, to my stomach, to my left side... eventually I must have lost focus and fell asleep.

What was that uncomfortable feeling? It was like a full body ache, strange. Should I just have stuck through it, even though it kept happening? At that rate, I felt like I wouldn't lay still long enough for my body to fall asleep.

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Though Ctharlhie's advice is still sound, this may have been an occasion not to roll over, because it caused you to become irretrievably focused on your discomfort (aka, all that tossing and turning). By quickly rolling over because of that discomfort, you made the discomfort -- and not the dream -- the object of your focus, and all those good things you had done in the beginning of your attempt were wiped away by this new distraction. It may have been better, this time, if you had tried to work through the initial discomfort by staying in your original position for a while longer, and focusing more heavily on your mantra/anchors.

I have no idea what that uncomfortable feeling was (it could have been anything, really), and I strongly suggest that you try not to concern yourself with it as well, because that only invites it to occur during your next attempt. And yes, you should have stuck with your WILD attempt.

You are very close to success, Sydney, but you will only get there if you learn to be patient, confident, and focused on your dream rather than all the other stuff.


DreamBeard:

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Originally Posted by DreamBeard

I need someone to help me out here.
So I attempted a WILD (I rarely attempt WILDs by the way, in case that makes a difference?) after sleeping for about 6-7 hours, I did a WBTB for about 12 mins. As soon as I lay back down, I don't really feel anything. I occasionally have to swallow a lot as it's really hard for me not to. If I don't swallow, I do start choking. After 10 mins, I start counting myself to lucidity by saying "one I'm dreaming, two I'm dreaming, etc". However, everytime I do end up almost dozing off, I immediately remember that I'm trying to become lucid and snap out of the doze state. Unfortunately, this continues on for 30-40 min. Yes, I actually tried lying still that long. I sometimes feel like I'm falling down. But that sensation ends abruptly and re-occurs every so often. After a few more minutes, I get a strange non-voluntary muscle movement coming from my neck (the swallowing muscles....?) where it feels like 3 pumps or 3 dry swallows. This sensation surprises and I end up opening my eyes and ruining my WILD and resulting in insomnia the rest of the night

Any thoughts on what I can do to improve it? Also, I did experience very little hypnagogic imagery. How helpful is hypnagogic imagery? And do you think I at least have somewhat of a right idea on how I might need to attempt WILD? Thanks!

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First and foremost, DreamBeard, if you have to swallow, then go ahead and swallow. It really makes no sense to torture yourself during your WILD; if your body as a need to swallow, let it do so -- if the swallowing is rhythmic or constant, you might even be able to use it as an anchor, as we do with breath. But don't fight it, because then all that happens is that swallowing becomes a distraction, which it did. But it also looks like you got past that distraction, and moved onto another:

If you remember that you are trying to become lucid as you doze that is actually a good thing, and not something that ought to wake you up. My guess as to why this happened is that you feel a need to stay awake in order to succeed at WILD, so every time you start falling asleep your body obligingly jerks you back awake because, well, that is what you desired. You certainly already know it intellectually, but I suggest you add a moment's thought to your day work about the fact that you must be asleep in order to LD, so there is nothing wrong with falling asleep. Now to the next distraction:

If you are not surprised by, or even interested in, "strange" physical sensations, then they will not interrupt your WILD dive; it is that simple. Just let them happen, and move on. For instance, had you not worried about swallowing, and not jerked awake for fear of falling asleep, you probably would have already been asleep and dreaming by the time this muscle movement happened and would not have noticed it (it probably happens all the time, but you are usually asleep and don't notice it). Ignoring the noise is critical, because focusing on it will almost always distract you and reduce your chances of reaching your dream to nil.

Some other small things:

30 minutes is actually not a long time to spend attempting a WILD. If you find yourself still awake after 90 minutes, then you can be concerned that your attempt is taking too long, and might not happen.

I noticed that you did your WBTB after 7 hours. This is may have been a bit late, because your sleep cycle may have already concluded, making REM a bit harder to catch, and sleep a bit harder to achieve (that insomnia. BTW, may have had less to do with your muscle movement than it did with your body saying, "Hey! It's time to get up!"). You might try doing your WBTB after 4-5 hours of sleep next time.

Hypnagogic imagery (HI) can be helpful as a roadmark to lucidity (i.e., you know you are falling asleep when it occurs), and even to help you form your dreams. Beyond that, they are just so much background noise as you make your way to sleep and your dream. It doesn't matter at all if you rarely experience HI (I almost never do, myself), and it doesn't need to matter if you do experience it. Above all, you should not look for HI, as doing so is yet another distraction.

You seem to be on the right track for success, DreamBeard. If you haven't done so yet, I do suggest that you take the WILD Class to which this thread is attached; it might help.

tl;dr: You both made a fine effort, but you must try to make the noise less important to your dive!

^Wow, that was a very detailed and excellent response! I'll try to keep those in mind tonight (or day-after tomorrow).

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Originally Posted by yaya

to sydny:

there are several reason for it....(force to roll over)

first reason: i just echo it from a Tibetan Lama:

when we are close to any phase phenomena (like LD, OBE, Astral projection), the energy pathway inside our chakras is aligning to a new form and much energy is flooding...if we have any energy blocks, there might be huge interaction in that area which will lead to uncomfortable feelings there...we should give it a while to pass...but, by rolling over, we just disturb the alignment of energy in our body while the problem is still there (the energy blocks) and we just suppress this interaction....

another reason:

also there might be some brain signals to check if our mind is sleep or not before it allows our body to paralyses...

LOL....i know it is a bit complex but that is as far as we know, sister!

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That actually does make a good bit of sense!
And yes, I guess my brain could have been checking if I was sleeping or not!!

Thanks yaya! ^^


Sageous:

Yep, definitely one of my problems. I have to quite focusing on the noise; for me (at least right now), it's mainly distractions, like being uncomfortable.
However, when I do reach HI, I'll simply acknowledge it and increase focus on my mantra/anchor even further, so as not to be distracted by it. (I'll also increase focus when I'm feeling uncomfortable as well)

Thanks for the advice Sageous!

Sageous, you should really consider writing a book all about WILD (especially based on all these experiences). I'd buy it in a heart-beat :cool:

I will buy it too!:rolllaugh: