I really want to test my knowledge on this stuff. questions always help me formulate thoughts. ask away!
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I really want to test my knowledge on this stuff. questions always help me formulate thoughts. ask away!
Is it scientifically proven?
no, it's not. That's a terrible question! lol. i mean, it is mathematically proven that a bumble bee CAN'T fly. and yet it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallian
NLP is just a system of behavioral procedures designed to get specific outcomes of behavior. That's a lie!
BTW i will be Lying consistently throughout this thread. The only difference from me and other people is that i know it's a lie. Any generalization is a lie. Science can be applied, and yet it has generalizations.
the lies that I will be talking about can and will be verified in your own experience if you apply it.
*cough*Quote:
Originally Posted by ranma187
So anyway, is NLP still just the 'art of picking up chicks'? Or has it moved on from there.
How long would it take to be able to adequently self-administrate NLP?Quote:
Originally posted by ranma187
I really want to test my knowledge on this stuff. questions always help me formulate thoughts. ask away!
The book I ordered from Amazon didn't come (yet?) so can you outline it for us?
NO!!! lol NLP was "invented" By Richard Bandler and John Grinder. They Came up with it by modeling one of the most effective therapists of their time. His name was "Milton Erickson". Another one was Virginia Satir.Quote:
Originally Posted by spoon
Richard Bandler broke down step by step what these therapists did down to Their Non verbal communication. They found it effective in curing phobias, Changing unwanted behavior, and hypnotising people without doing a formal induction.
They came up with a theory that if the term "Hypnosis" can be defined as altering someones state of conciousness, then all effective communication is essentially Hypnosis. OR, there is no such thing as hypnosis, it is just a word. we always get trivked by words and their meanings.
an example: It is a commonality in many peoples lives, is to have had their parents read to them while they fall asleep when they were young. Some of the most effective hypnotists, i notice, use the same kind of voice tones. Parents, in a manner of speaking, are using hypnosis in this manner. only if they knew what they were doing, when the child is already asleep, they could go "...and you feel compelled to help Mommy in the kitchen!"
Ross Jeffries invented Speed Seduction based on their tactics. His stuff is lame and pretty sneaky. and in my opinion a mis-interpretation. i can see where some of it might work, that is if the girl has half a brain. I've used NLP on women, but only after it was Obvious something was gonna happen. I don't like the feeling of manipulating someone at all.
Depends how you administer it. you can read it and systematically practice it. Over a period of time it would become just as easy as walking without thinking about it. BTW there's a good outline on how to systematically practice it in the Bandler book "frogs into princes".Quote:
Originally Posted by spoon
and by self administration. do you mean using it on yourself???
Quote:
Originally Posted by spoon
What book did you order?
Introducing Neuro-Linguistic Programming: Psychological Skills for Understanding and Influencing People by Joseph O'Connor; I just checked and it is supposed to ship March 14.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranma187
I also got NLP- The New TEchnology of Achievement by Steve Andreas and Charles Faulkner. This book had a good rating on Amazon but didn't seem to be the one that people on DV were recommending. I started it but put it aside in favor of "Hypnotize yourself with Your Eyes Open" which is quite easy to do but hasn't worked for me yet.
I guess I'll go back to the one I have, maybe get the Bandler and Grinder one?
I guess you definitely think this is worth the time and trouble, or you wouldn't be recommending it. I've heard good things from other people too...guess now that I've done the easy one (eyes-open hypnotizing) I'll move on to this.
yeah, they are definately worth it! they can be expensive tho. I got Trance-Formations for around $80 canadian. and Frogs into Princes for $40 canadian. They are good reads. They read like a seminar which is a lot easy than a 300 page dissertation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll be sure to check it out as soon as possible.Quote:
Originally posted by ranma187
Depends how you administer it. you can read it and systematically practice it. Over a period of time it would become just as easy as walking without thinking about it. BTW there's a good outline on how to systematically practice it in the Bandler book "frogs into princes".
and by self administration. do you mean using it on yourself???
By self-administration, I was referring just to be able to administer it, but is it possible to use it on yourself?
I found a "Very Good" used copy for $43.00. I guess its out of print. They (amazon) had several vendors selling it for about that price. Hope it's worth it!Quote:
Originally Posted by ranma187
What is NLP (in newb-terms please)?
Yes, i use a number of techniques on myself, such as reframing, and new behavior generating. I'm actually suprised at some of the results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elixer
Frogs into Princes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Elixer
Basically it's just using language in a sophisticated manner to alter someones state of conciousness. Language being both verbal and non-verbal. words only make up 7% of all communication, the rest is body language and voice tone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elixer
Yes. The reviews are very positive.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranma187
I see, alter it into what? Got an example? This sounds quite cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranma187
well, for example. if i describe to you a beach...and being at the beach...you can look up at the sky...and see the peaceful blueness of the sky...and you can feel...the feeling of you feet...on the beach...while you listen to the sound of the waves...rolling in...and it can be relaxing...to come here...from time to time...Quote:
Originally Posted by TweaK
now already I've given you a visual, and audio and a kinesthetic example of what might happen as you go to the beach. and if already you've imagined any of those things. i've successfully altered your state somewhat.
that's a small example. but people do this all the time in every interaction. the importance of realising this, can heighten the experience of knowing how to communicate with someone. if that makes sense???
and moonbeam: that's a wonderful book! i also recommend TRANCE-Formations, it shows you step by step how to do an induction.
I used to do that in bed, with the exact same beach you described, except I'm in a huge glass box slowly filling with hot water.. and I can really feel the water. But I guess you saying it and altering my mind state is the NLP. But yeah, that's great.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranma187
Tell me more about this stuff if you can :P
Edit
What are good recommended books for beginners (so they don't use like super advanced NLP-geek terms)? I think I might download an eBook or two.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweaK
I'd go with Trance-formations. that really Spelled it out for me. It reads like a seminar so they have excercises and anylizations of excercises.
There are so many ways to alter someone's state it's not funny. a few simple things you can begin to practice is non-verbal pacing and leading. next time your on a bus and sitting next to someone. try to notice what pace they breathe at. you then match your pace with theirs. to get rapport. Rapport is basically a comfortable feeling you might have with someone, like family or a good friend. Don't mirror anything TOO exact as it might intrude on their concious mind. you'll know when you have rapport when they begin to mirror you in some sort of way.
Indications of Rapport (IOR): they cross their legs the other way towards you. you scratch you nose and they scratch their nose right after. you sigh and then they sigh right after. there are countless other IOR's
when you have rapport. you can lead them anywhere you want to go. you can slow down your breathing or speed it up.
you can also pace and lead by speaking at the same rate they do, or at the same pace of their breathing.. also, other people think in more terms of visual, audio, or kinesthetic. eg "when i go outside i can really feel the warmth of the sun on my face" - kinesthetic. "when i go outside i can hear the wind blowing in the streets"-audio "when i go outside i can see the cars drive by. so you can also use the same kind of predicates they do when you find out what representational system they are operating out of.
you can also really piss someone off by mis matching predicates. an example from one of my MSN convo's
I'm going visual and audio, while he's all in the feeling.Quote:
Through the fire and flames! says:
well then it was a pointless thing to say
Through the fire and flames! says:
see
Dokujin: Gearhead 5th Class says:
do i care what people think?
[/b]
I'll do more on inductions later.
Funnily enough I just did a simplified version of this for a science fair project, I probably got a bad grade too. :oops: In anycase I tried using rapport on my spanish teacher and it worked perfectly, it was like a game of monkey-see monkey-do
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguis...lture_and_mediaQuote:
Despite its popularity[1][2] NLP continues to be controversial, particularly for use in therapy, and after three decades of existence remains scientifically unvalidated.[3] NLP has been criticized for lacking a defining and regulating body to impose standards and a professional ethical code.[4][/b]
Nlp is nothing but a cult. Also it based on science from about 20 years ago and most off the claims are unvalidated.
http://skepdic.com/neurolin.htmlQuote:
in conclusion
It seems that NLP develops models which can't be verified, from which it develops techniques which may have nothing to do with either the models or the sources of the models. NLP makes claims about thinking and perception which do not seem to be supported by neuroscience. This is not to say that the techniques won't work. They may work and work quite well, but there is no way to know whether the claims behind their origin are valid. Perhaps it doesn't matter. NLP itself proclaims that it is pragmatic in its approach: what matters is whether it works. However, how do you measure the claim "NLP works"? I don't know and I don't think NLPers know, either. Anecdotes and testimonials seem to be the main measuring devices. Unfortunately, such a measurement may reveal only how well the trainers teach their clients to persuade others to enroll in more training sessions.[/b]
Well I would have to agree with Richard Feyman and say that all Nlp techniques are placebo effect plus self delusion. A good comparison would be with hypnosis or with people who think humans and animals have aura's. Although Nlp is not the worst psudeo science, however it is up their with scientiology and intelligent design(creationism).
I guess Nlp is not that bad, however it needs to be updated. Also the claims tested under scientific conditions.
yes, it's like you can have an entire conversation with someone and they'd never know!Quote:
Originally Posted by Osimero
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osimero
Like i said before, It's all lies. Any system of learning has it's own assets and limitations. there isn't any One system that will be valid with anything lol.
i found this on one of the NLP seduction forums: Entitled: scientific proof of NLP
Quote:
The other day I was listening to the Blink audiobook by Malcolm Gladwell (btw the book is about how our mind (ie. subconscious) makes quick assessments and judgments, for good or bad, outside of your conscious realization – this is basically your intuition at work) and the author mentioned an interesting university study.
A professor had a number of students walk into his office a read out loud a series of word groupings, some were phrases others were just random words put together. He then compared the speed at which the students walked into and out of his office. In almost all the cases the students walked more slowly on the way out of his office.
In each word grouping he added a word from a specific theme; grey, Florida, wrinkle, bingo…basically old age. The student’s subconscious mind made the association between the these words, without the student having conscious awareness that the theme of old age was there, and caused the observed change in behavior – walking slower.
The first thing that came to mind was that this was direct scientific proof that NLP based patterns work. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah….. I know I’m just stating the obvious to anyone who’s experienced in Speed Seduction and pointing out my ignorance on the topic. But I then realized something more important afterwards and that was the extent to which were all subtly and readily influenced by our surroundings, tv, media, friends…., without any conscious realization that it’s occurring.[/b]
he makes an interesting point.
It seems that there are several different versions of NLP (I read the Wikipedia article.) That's why there are so many different authors of different books with different methods. I was reading the one book that I already have (Andreas and someone else) before bed last night, and trying some of the exercises. One was to visualize yourself doing something, not visualize the thing itself, but like watch a movie of yourself doing it successfully, but I didn't know how to do that with lucid dreaming. So I practiced some other things that I would like to do.
Guess what? I had tons of recall, and a lucid, into an FA in which I again became lucid.
I have no idea if it was connected to reading about NLP and doing weird mental exercises or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
I noticed the mood of my dreams completely changed after reading NLP. it's strange! I've given myself commands to dream of interacting with women, without my usual anti social habits. and i will dream that i'm being more persistent, more friendly, etc. it's cool. I've been more relaxed in social situations as well!
That's why I'm not worried if it is pseudo-science or not. If it helps, it helps--who cares why? I'm not a very "psychological" person and I have trouble doing the exercises, but I've never even tried to "visualize" before. I think any sort of trick to keep myself focused on something instead of all the millions of distractions that usually take my attention away may be beneficial. And, since really I wanted to use it for getting lucid, somehow it worked (I think!) even tho I "thought" I was trying to use it for something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranma187
(That was mumbo-jumbo!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
That sounds like me! I'm always distracted by stuff! it takes time to build concentration for me.
if you want a real cool Trance induction check out www.hypnotica.org go to the download section and get the double induction. It's cool, one guy speaks in your right ear, and the other in your left. they finish eachothers sentences and sometimes combine commands. you try to listen to what they are saying but you can't pay attention, then you drift off.
no worries about mumbo jumbo. i do that a lot.
How did you place a percentage on communication? (ie. language being 7% of it)
~
How did you place a percentage on communication? (ie. language being 7% of it)
~
http://youtube.com/watch?v=befugtgikMg
Is that really NLP?
kage thanks for that link - I watched virtually all of derren brown's videos on youtube and now I'm really interested in NLP.
no prob...derren brown is freakin' incredible. although i'm not actually sure if that clip really is NLP, or if it's some sort of proper magic illusion masked as NLP to throw people off the real way it's done.Quote:
Originally Posted by ataraxis
the only way is to try lol.
he did use NLP patterns. i spotted quite a few
Thanks a lot. Now I've seen every Derren Brown youtube video!. and yes, Derren is a master at NLP, and unconcious suggestion, that's how most of his stuff works. I've learned a lot from watching those vids. From my previous NLP readings i was able to guess some of his tricks before-hand.
Can you do that stuff yet? Why don't you hypnotize me to lucid dream? Thanks!
i have an induction for Lucid dreaming in the Inductions section. Some people have wrote in saying It's beena great tool. When i was using it before, sometimes afterwards i would get Vivid HI, and try to WILD that way. check it out, It would be nice to have a female opinion.
OK I'll check it out. Need something new right now.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ichard+bandler
the handshake induction
Is their anything in the NLP thing to get rid off addiction, I play computer games too much and I think I'm addicted to it. Also, getting rid off pain(headaches) and tiredness would also help. I read about NLP used to cure smoking and use to block out pain e.t.c.
just find a different hobby.
I guess the only way to change something is to replace it.Quote:
just find a different hobby.
I found a good article on pain control from NLP. I heard breathing deeply gets rid off headaches.
Umm you got the derren brown book right???
His excercise with picures (sub-modalities). is worth a shot. make the picture of your video games habit far away. and put a new hobby in the picture that's more close up.