Strange way to attain lucidity

Hello everyone, I wanted to tell you people about the weird way a friend of mine gets lucid and ask for your opinions. First off, he's a natural lucid dreamer and hasn't ever really read a thing about the topic, reason why I find it a little bit difficult to communicate effectively with him.
Everything he does in order to attain lucidity is the result of observation, he noticed he sometimes had these weird dreams in which he knew he was dreaming and started looking for a way to induce them. Also, he told me that when he wakes up naturally he feels like if his ears unplugged (change from internal input to external :huh2:?).

So over the course of a few days he studied the way he felt asleep and tried to induce the lucid dream by thinking about what he wanted to dream before falling asleep (incubation). One of those days, he noticed the usual sensation in his ears, thought the other way around: They felt like if they were plugged and everything he heard faded off, and then he doze off. This sensation was accompanied by his eyes rolling up in his sockets :roll:, reason why he thought there was a relationship between these two things and falling asleep, thus he tried to replicate one sensation so as the other to take place. He found that, by rolling his eyes up when fully awake, his ears plugged slightly (compared to when he fell asleep).

After this discovery he came up with a way to induce a lucid dream from cold (no prior sleep): He laid on bed and relaxed for a while, usually no more than ten minutes, until he felt like he was ready to fall asleep (I cannot give more details on this “feeling” as he couldn’t either :P) and then he rolled his eyes like he had naturally and involuntarily done that other night. There were two possible outcomes, either his ears plugged immediately and he felt asleep (like you would in a WILD, but starting dreaming shortly after going to bed) or he failed to feel the plugs and started the process all over (relax --> feel sleepy --> roll eyes), normally succeeding in the second or third attempt.

I haven’t heard of anything quite like this before, is the eye rolling one of the so called “sleep commands”? Is his sleep cycle messed up and so he is able to REM dream from cold?

I really need some help with this :P. I’ll be talking to him again tomorrow, any ideas on what should I ask him in order to clarify this and how should I phrase the questions for someone who does not know the theory, but seems masters the practice? Any thoughts concerning the ear plugging, the eye roll and the technique?

Heyy Eddydpyl!

Can't give you a lot of info based on the things you said here you should wait for the "experts" from the forum to look at your post :D

Now for the ears thing. He might be feeling sleep paralysis or just some of tha fases of it. I dont know a lot about natural lucid dreamers only that they are rare. The "plug" sound was maybe because of his mind shifting to the dream. Like a shift of some sort. Like the sound in "Inception" or "The Matrix".

As you said when he starts feeling that he just starts lucid dreaming or goes in the dream it self. Its his way of entering the dream and its a good thing he discovered it .

I don't sugest you go and do the things step by step like him. You have to keep in mind that everyone is different. As your friend he is a natural and so he found that signall, but you maybe arent a natural and you might not expirience it like him.

What I sugest is try to find your way "in the dream". Try doing some of the techniques here on the forum. Do them your way. The way they suit you.

Umm I am kind a freaked out about the eye roll thing. Now do you mean his eyes roll up all the way up like he literly doesnt see or like his eyes are twitching. If you get some more information on that I would be glad to read it. :)

Anyway I wish you good luck in your next lucid expirience my friend! ;-)

Thanks for the reply chance7hope, I know the info is not a lot but as I wrote I couldn't manage to get any more out of him, hope the experts here at dreamviews check this post and leave their thoughts.

I don't really think the plugging is related to SP (directly that is), as I said, he feels this sensation as soon as fifteen minutes after goint to bed. Maybe his sleep cycles are mesed up?

I know everyone is different and all of that but him being a natural and them being so rare I couldn't miss the oportunity to try and get some kind information about how he does what he does. By eye rolling I meant like looking to the ceiling with your eyes clossed.

Very interesting. Well, it's hard to tell what the ears effect is. I probably would say it may be his personal type of HH/wilding noise. It may be a physical thing. Only he can tell after becoming acquainted with the terminology.

Now, the eye movement, I've read about this before:

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Originally Posted by Dreamhighlander

One thing i noticed and i never read it on what we feel when we WILD is the awareness of REM, or so i think it is. With this, i mean, noticing your eyes moving rapidly.
When my WILD is on the right track, i feel the usual vibrations, buzz sound, etc. But right before those feelings, i notice my eyes going left to right very quickly without my control. This is for only a few seconds. Then, it stops when imagery becomes to take from.

Do you guys notice your REM's also?

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So we have at least another account related to eye movement while wilding. I don't think I've paid enough attention when trying to fall asleep about that. It would be interesting if we can do more experiments while wilding to see if more eye movements are more conductive to calling up a dream. Could eye movements be determing whether we enter REM or NREM?

I also just recently met someone who has had lucids for many years and hasn't read anything about it either. He too does a kind of WILD right in and thinks about what he's going to dream about before going to bed. I thought it was quite weird, the methods that are normally taught to lucid dream have little to do with his, but I see he's not the only one who does it, so maybe it's more common than we think.

NyxCC, I would agree the ear plugging could be his personal HH/WILD noise if it wasn't for the fact he says he's able to replicate it while awake. Maybe he has related these two (plugged ears and eye rolling) at a subconscious level or something? It seems to him that it's something physical, but again he doesn't know about HH or pretty much anything else, though he did recognize having felt it after I explained to him what it was.

I think I didn't express myself clearly with the eye rolling thing. It’s not anything like the typical REM eyeballs dance inside your eye sockets, he just looks up with his eyes closed and like looks for something far away, widening his field of vision. I didn’t give these details before because he didn’t himself explain them to me that clearly and I might have misunderstood him.

That’s basically what I wanted to ask about, whether we are onto something here, studying the methods of a natural, like the eye movements determining the sleep phase as you suggest.

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Originally Posted by martakartus

I also just recently met someone who has had lucids for many years and hasn't read anything about it either. He too does a kind of WILD right in and thinks about what he's going to dream about before going to bed. I thought it was quite weird, the methods that are normally taught to lucid dream have little to do with his, but I see he's not the only one who does it, so maybe it's more common than we think.

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That's something I too noticed, methods taught here and elsewhere don’t relate too much to what my friend does in his strange WILD. Probably thinking about what you want to dream, as if you incubated one, is the first instinct for someone who knows nothing about the theory taught to non-naturals. Maybe you could ask him about the ear plugging thing?

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I think I didn't express myself clearly with the eye rolling thing. It’s not anything like the typical REM eyeballs dance inside your eye sockets, he just looks up with his eyes closed and like looks for something far away, widening his field of vision. I didn’t give these details before because he didn’t himself explain them to me that clearly and I might have misunderstood him.

That’s basically what I wanted to ask about, whether we are onto something here, studying the methods of a natural, like the eye movements determining the sleep phase as you suggest.

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We might really be onto something. Now if we are able to replicate this...With what you've written above about the eyes it now seems close to certain third eye visualizations that may be used for wilding. It also sounds close to the vision/visualization tutorials here. Again, I am left wondering if the movement and position of the eyes plays a role.

It's really great that you guys have come across natural dreamers that have no knowledge of current techniques so we can read what works for them. There are many paths to lucidity. :)

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

We might really be onto something. Now if we are able to replicate this...With what you've written above about the eyes it now seems close to certain third eye visualizations that may be used for wilding. It also sounds close to the vision/visualization tutorials here. Again, I am left wondering if the movement and position of the eyes plays a role.

It's really great that you guys have come across natural dreamers that have no knowledge of current techniques so we can read what works for them. There are many paths to lucidity. :)

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Yep, hopefully we´ll get somewhere, like find a new induction technique (that'd be cool) or learn something about how the naturals do. I've been thinking, the key here might be the eyes movement but he told me he first thought of this method when one night he felt asleep consciously and felt as if his ears plugged (and eyes rolled), external sounds faded away and a (unstable) dream took place, in which he was lucid. This was the first time he felt the plugging, but he had felt the unplugging many times when waking up naturally. Thing is, I have never felt this unplugging of the senses when waking up, it seems like if his consciousness wakes up before his body does. Have you ever felt this sensation or know someone that has?

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

We might really be onto something. Now if we are able to replicate this...With what you've written above about the eyes it now seems close to certain third eye visualizations that may be used for wilding. It also sounds close to the vision/visualization tutorials here. Again, I am left wondering if the movement and position of the eyes plays a role.

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This is quite interesting. When I was getting started with all this, during several weeks I used a sleep hypnosis audio to improve dream recall. At the very beginning, along with relaxation exercises, you were asked to look at the back of your eyelids, then roll your eyes up as far as you could and hold them that way until it hurt slightly, then relax them, and then repeat it twice or so. Back then I assumed it was part of the relaxation process, a way of relaxing your eye muscles, but maybe there's more to it than just that.

I think I've experienced exactly the same once during a WILD attempt, suddenly I lost all 'feeling' of my body and my inner-ears swelled like when you ascend or descent a mountain. The swollen feeling also caused a bit of tinnitus after which it turned into a vivid auditory hallucination of a bee flying over my head. Oh yeah, almost forgot to say my eyes turned right instead of upwards like you said.

:woohoo: We seem to be getting somewhere! :woohoo: Shall we try to replicate this somehow, as NyxCC suggested? I'm still in contact with the natural dreamer, any idea of something I could ask him to try and clarify things?

@ Marta

Thanks for bringing this up. :) I recall now reading something about rolling the eyes and hypnosis. Must definitely re-visit this subject!


@ Eddydpyl

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Have you ever felt this sensation or know someone that has?

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The process of wilding by its nature enables you to be more aware of the plugging/unplugging of senses. Perhaps it depends where you place your focus. I prefer to focus on the feel of my body and the lightness that follows. Regarding the ear plugging sensation, I don't think I have noticed something like this, but I did find another similar account:

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Originally Posted by Gawain

When I had a problem WILDing the other day, I felt that the WILDs were like a change in pressure in my ear canals, like when I yawned, or when my ears popped ascending/descending a mountain.

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Originally Posted by Eddydpyl

We seem to be getting somewhere! Shall we try to replicate this somehow, as NyxCC suggested? I'm still in contact with the natural dreamer, any idea of something I could ask him to try and clarify things?

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All right, so how would we proceed? The usual wbtb and then step 1 relaxing step 2 moving the eyes? The movement should be up (ok), is it directed towards the inside (as in head and forehead) or the outside - more like you are watching the upper part of the room and more in depth? Does he move the eyes continuously or just once and keeps them at that point? I suppose we should avoid straining too. :P

We can also try it pre bed to see if it affects the cycles.

I would suggest both approaches, wbtb (just in case the NREM skip is something not everyone can archive) and WILD from cold. The eye thing he does is still a bit of a mystery for me, though he showed me how he does it but with his eyes open. As far as I can tell the movement is looking up towards the inside, though I might be wrong. He moves the eyes just once and keeps them there for a few seconds; if the plugging takes place he knows he's asleep and if it doesn't he repeats the process. He also punctuated that it wouldn't work unless he got the feeling I mentioned in the first post.

I'll try different approaches for a few days and inform if I discover anything interesting.

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Originally Posted by Eddydpyl

I would suggest both approaches, wbtb (just in case the NREM skip is something not everyone can archive) and WILD from cold. The eye thing he does is still a bit of a mystery for me, though he showed me how he does it but with his eyes open. As far as I can tell the movement is looking up towards the inside, though I might be wrong. He moves the eyes just once and keeps them there for a few seconds; if the plugging takes place he knows he's asleep and if it doesn't he repeats the process. He also punctuated that it wouldn't work unless he got the feeling I mentioned in the first post.

I'll try different approaches for a few days and inform if I discover anything interesting.

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Now that sounds like something similar to FILD but without the finger stuff and the RC being the plug in the ears after looking up. I just don't know why he knows he's asleep when he does it cause when I look up my ears pop every time, does he mean his ears stay plugged or pop open?
Also I've been able to pop my ears whenever I want without the aid of the eyes just by using a small muscle located inside my ear, I discovered this after a nasty cold I had which blocked my nose and throat with thick mucus.

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Originally Posted by LDman

Now that sounds like something similar to FILD but without the finger stuff and the RC being the plug in the ears after looking up. I just don't know why he knows he's asleep when he does it cause when I look up my ears pop every time, does he mean his ears stay plugged or pop open?
Also I've been able to pop my ears whenever I want without the aid of the eyes just by using a small muscle located inside my ear, I discovered this after a nasty cold I had which blocked my nose and throat with thick mucus.

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This! Could you please specify how do you make your ears pop when looking up? I mean, I'm not able to do so. He knows he is asleep because the ears stay plugged, everything he hears from then on sounds muffled. When doing it when awake he feels something similar, less exaggerated.

Edit: Ok so I just found out I'm able to do so, though for me it doesn't seem to be related to the eyes rolling. Is it like a pop that seems to go from the inside to the outside? What you feel when blowing with your nose held closed, when you want to unplugg your ears after a change of altitude?

Edit 2: It doesn't neccesarely result in a pop, it feels like a built up pressure inside your ears. Is it me or maintaining the pressure causes an urge to yawn? Maybe it's just that I'm sleepy as hell.

This might sound strange but I need to know if for you it also sounds kind off like the sound of the wind in your ears.

I've been able to pop my ears for several years now without my eyes doing anything, it was just after I read this thread that I tried it with the eyes looking upwards and I noticed the same feeling in my ears.
Yeah it ain't a pop really, more a like a bit of air just escaping your inner ear-channel or something and yes it's actually the same as when you yawn, however I'm currently trying to 'maintain the pressure' like you said cause I've not been able to hold the air in my ears.

EDIT: I've just found a stable point where I can keep the air inside my ears and it caused the yawn-reflex.
First I felt my inner nose-channels getting humid I think after which my jaw is forced open by the reflex resulting in a very deep yawn actually. It also made me feel sleepy so I could possibly use this as some sort of relaxation for future WILDs or DEILDs.

I just thought if we could use this as an RC, keeping air inside your ears and testing if it causes a yawn-reflex or not, who knows it behaves differently in a dream...

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Originally Posted by Eddydpyl

Thing is, I have never felt this unplugging of the senses when waking up, it seems like if his consciousness wakes up before his body does. Have you ever felt this sensation or know someone that has?

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It is most noticeable for me when I get an urge to roll over when I *think* I am having trouble getting back to sleep. When I do move or roll over, regular audio senses become more obvious and I can feel that my muscles are waking back up. I occasionally notice something similar when waking up after a lucid or normal dream. I think it was more prevalent when I was really concentrating on remembering to try to DEILD, RC or recall right at any awakening...thinking that my awareness of the process of waking up was heightened.

Earlier, when I read the OP, I tried rolling my eyes back while obviously wide awake and I did feel more drowsy, it seemed. I may try to experiment with this as a way to doze off quicker as well as how he uses it...though I am guessing I will need WBTB and may not want to skip natural NREM, even if that is possible for the average person on the average night (some people do have different sleep abnormalities). As I got through to the later posts it sounded more like he was using this as a way to realize that he is asleep. It can be confusing many times. I have been laying in bed thinking I was still trying to get to sleep only to do a motionless RC before realizing I was already asleep, basically dreaming that I am in bed trying to get to sleep much like my rollover example. It either doesn't happen to me very often or I am not catching it very often. This friend's method may be similar to my clenched eyes method of guessing how asleep I am. When fully asleep I am guessing the clenched eyes "action" is happening completely with my dream eyes and it brings on stronger vibrations for me. When I get lighter vibrations I am guessing that I am just in the earlier stages of sleep and not quite to REM, but that is just my current hypothesis. I am definitely far from a master of WILDing, so I am hopeful that something comes of the method in the OP!

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Originally Posted by LDman

I've been able to pop my ears for several years now without my eyes doing anything, it was just after I read this thread that I tried it with the eyes looking upwards and I noticed the same feeling in my ears.
Yeah it ain't a pop really, more a like a bit of air just escaping your inner ear-channel or something and yes it's actually the same as when you yawn, however I'm currently trying to 'maintain the pressure' like you said cause I've not been able to hold the air in my ears.

EDIT: I've just found a stable point where I can keep the air inside my ears and it caused the yawn-reflex.
First I felt my inner nose-channels getting humid I think after which my jaw is forced open by the reflex resulting in a very deep yawn actually. It also made me feel sleepy so I could possibly use this as some sort of relaxation for future WILDs or DEILDs.

I just thought if we could use this as an RC, keeping air inside your ears and testing if it causes a yawn-reflex or not, who knows it behaves differently in a dream...

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So this seems to be what my friend does to fall asleep or RC or whatever it might be, the fact that it causes yawning and sleepiness gives me hope.

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It is most noticeable for me when I get an urge to roll over when I *think* I am having trouble getting back to sleep. When I do move or roll over, regular audio senses become more obvious and I can feel that my muscles are waking back up. I occasionally notice something similar when waking up after a lucid or normal dream. I think it was more prevalent when I was really concentrating on remembering to try to DEILD, RC or recall right at any awakening...thinking that my awareness of the process of waking up was heightened.

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Maybe awareness is all there is to notice this change. He describes it as an obvious unplugging of his senses and told me that, when falling asleep by rolling his eyes (which might not be necessary) and feeling the ear pop (which we seem to have discovered), all his senses faded. From there either he would start creating the scenario for his dream, as it was usually pitch black, or focus again on the exterior sounds (they were muffled, but still there) and consequently wake up.

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Earlier, when I read the OP, I tried rolling my eyes back while obviously wide awake and I did feel more drowsy, it seemed. I may try to experiment with this as a way to doze off quicker as well as how he uses it...though I am guessing I will need WBTB and may not want to skip natural NREM, even if that is possible for the average person on the average night (some people do have different sleep abnormalities).

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A sleep abnormality was my first thought, but when I asked him for the most common diseases, narcolepsy for example (not that I'm a medic), he told me he didn't think he suffered from any of them. Though he might be wrong.

He told me something else which I didn't thought relevant but might now be: He had to stop LD because he lost control of his dreams which turned into nightmares and, each time he woke up intentionally trying to escape the nightmare, he woke up to a terrible headache.

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This friend's method may be similar to my clenched eyes method of guessing how asleep I am. When fully asleep I am guessing the clenched eyes "action" is happening completely with my dream eyes and it brings on stronger vibrations for me. When I get lighter vibrations I am guessing that I am just in the earlier stages of sleep and not quite to REM, but that is just my current hypothesis. I am definitely far from a master of WILDing, so I am hopeful that something comes of the method in the OP!

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Could you explain what do you mean by clenched eyes "action"? I'm not native and had to look up the word, do you mean closed eyes?

Idk if it this is important to this thread but if you close your eyes and roll them up you feel a little bit of relaxation. Ann Wise discovered that it produced a short lived alpha wave increase but enough to allow a quick relaxation response. Now may this give rise to a different outcome in a pre sleep state?

Edit: Anna Wise, not Ann, in case one wants to google

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

Idk if it this is important to this thread but if you close your eyes and roll them up you feel a little bit of relaxation. Ann Wise discovered that it produced a short lived alpha wave increase but enough to allow a quick relaxation response. Now may this give rise to a different outcome in a pre sleep state?

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I do think its relevant, maybe a posible explanation for it acting as a trigger of some sort.

Concerning the ear thing, I've done some research and it seems there is no such muscle in the ears, but in the neck area, which has an effect on a little tube that joins these two and that makes that sound when the walls of the tube are close together and separated when making use of that muscle.

^^ Well done with the research. I tried doing this ear plugging thing that kind of sounds like wind into your ears and observing in the mirror. Slight movement in the neck area and interestingly my eyelids lower as if about to blink as I initiate it. You may indeed feel like yawning if done longer.

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

^^ Well done with the research. I tried doing this ear plugging thing that kind of sounds like wind into your ears and observing in the mirror. Slight movement in the neck area and interestingly my eyelids lower as if about to blink as I initiate it. You may indeed feel like yawning if done longer.

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Thanks! It's called the eustachian tube and connects the middle ear with a few other things, tough it doesn't seem to have any relation with sleep other than its blockage being more common on people with sleep apnea. It is known to cause auditory problems when blocked but mainly due to the accumulation of fluids. Its function is to regulate the difference of pressure between the air outside the ear and inside, so as to avoid a negative difference in pressure.

"Swallowing or yawning opens the eustachian tube and allows air to flow into or out of the middle ear, keeping the air pressure on both sides of the eardrum equal. If the eustachian tube is blocked, the air pressure in the middle ear is different than the pressure on the outside of the eardrum."

I would say that what we do is open the passage wide and actually "hear" the air flow. So we now know what it is, but what does it have to do with LD? Maybe we should focus more on the eye thing?

Edit: Yep, mistery solved, he seems to open his tubes wide and then LD or someting - "Tilt your head back and thrust your jaw forward. Looking to the sky will put your eustachian tubes into the proper position. Thrusting your jaw forward may help promote a yawn, and may open your Eustachian tubes and relieve the pressure."

I guess now experimentation is the way to go? I did try and WILD this way yesterday but fell asleep.

I am curious to know more about his relaxation approach...that may play a role, as different relaxation techniques can have different brain signatures, despite the same background of the hypometabolic relaxation response

I had an LD this morning and I decided to test out the ear-popping and see if it behaves differently in a dream than IRL.
Here's the dream straight out of the Dream-journal:

"I'm walking around in a city with my family, there are very wide plaza's everywhere and the sky is grey probably raining soon. We seem to be the only people her and decide to leave, then I remember we forgot a small dark bag at the place we just came from. As I tell them to go back I snap lucid and try Climbing up a small tower we just walked by. When I got up the tower/building I wanted my family to leave so they wouldn't distract me, I noticed the dream getting weaker so I shout "CLARITY!"which boosted the vividness of the dream. As I stood on the roof I thought of the thread on DV in which I discussed a possible new RC/inducer. Basicly opening or closing your ear-channels in the same way as when you yawn. I tried it several times but I didn't feel any change of pressure in my ears nor did I hear any pop or air. After probably 10 attempts I noticed a small yet sharp sting in my right ear so I decided to stop. I got back on the ground where suddenly my bed was, the dream was slowly falling apart and I tried stabilizing by hugging the side of the bed but it was too late and resulted in the following FA."

As you can see there was a difference, this means this could be used as a quick and very discreet RC though it might not be as reliable as the nose-plug RC. I will probably make more tests in the future, just before I fell asleep this morning I looked up with my eyes several times and if 'VagalTone' is right with the alpha wave thing caused by the eye movement then we might have a possible alternative for the SSILD technique here.

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Originally Posted by Eddydpyl

I would say that what we do is open the passage wide and actually "hear" the air flow. So we now know what it is, but what does it have to do with LD? Maybe we should focus more on the eye thing?

I guess now experimentation is the way to go? I did try and WILD this way yesterday but fell asleep.

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Yes, maybe it is better to focus on the eyes and use the ears in two ways: 1. Be mindful if any changes at onset of sleep or after wake 2. Possibly as a RC

With regards to number one: I did give this technique some thought before bedtime but was taking too long to fall asleep so decided to drop wilding at that point. Interestingly, and perhaps it was a coincidence or maybe due to me playing with my ears a while before that, as I was drifting off, there was a single little pop/pressure change in my ear, which I found most peculiar. No ld though.

About the use for RC, LDman's test look quite promising and perhaps this can indeed be used unless you start replicating it perfectly. My blow through nose RC was actually trying to pop my ears like you would after altitude change and I thought I had it nailed until couple of lds it started feeling exactly the same way...

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

I am curious to know more about his relaxation approach...that may play a role, as different relaxation techniques can have different brain signatures, despite the same background of the hypometabolic relaxation response

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I'll ask him right away, though he's taking some time to answer my emails.

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Originally Posted by LDman

As you can see there was a difference, this means this could be used as a quick and very discreet RC though it might not be as reliable as the nose-plug RC. I will probably make more tests in the future, just before I fell asleep this morning I looked up with my eyes several times and if 'VagalTone' is right with the alpha wave thing caused by the eye movement then we might have a possible alternative for the SSILD technique here.

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Cool, I'll to experiment with this, thought I'll focus on replicating exactly what he does and hope for results.

Thanks Eddy! Btw, a reference for my first post

Go Ahead…Roll Your Eyes | The Best Brain Possible

Just an interesting preview

Alpha waves are present in the relaxed awareness of a day dreaming mind. An alpha state is the intermediate ground between waking and sleeping and provides a bridge to the subconscious mind. Alpha brain waves allow for vivid, lucid imagery and can assist in creativity and insight.

Eye rolling has long been used as a meditation technique because it more quickly leads to an altered state of consciousness and to the theta brain waves desired in deep meditation.

For some creative inspiration, a brief break in your day or during meditation, you can kick start your brain’s alpha waves by doing this simple but profound exercise which Anna Wise details in her book Awakening the Mind: A Guide to Harnessing the Power of Your Brainwaves:

^^ Bookmarked, will read throught later, the website seems interesting by the way.

@VagalTone

That sounds very interesting, I'll probably start reading the book very soon!

I tried the eye roll back and looking for any sensation in my ears last night during an awakening. I didn't try to do anything with my ears, only observe and didn't notice anything. I may have been in the early stages of sleep. I only tried it once when I was feeling relaxed and at a time when I was also getting some light vibrations via my eye clinch thing. I didn't WILD but I did have a DILD later, but I don't think it was related unfortunately...but who knows for sure.

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Originally Posted by Eddydpyl

Could you explain what do you mean by clenched eyes "action"? I'm not native and had to look up the word, do you mean closed eyes?

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I gently squeeze my eyes closed, a little more tightly than simply closing them. When I am awake I am actually doing it with my physical eyes and when asleep I am only doing this "action" with my dream eyes I assume. It is less clear when I am in between awake and fully asleep. It seems as if when I am between wake and sleep I am able to get the reaction of lighter vibrations, whereas I get strong vibrations when I am fully...or more fully asleep.

^^ Interesting, and as for the experimentation, I haven't had any luck either and my friend does not seem answer to my emails anymore.

Hi Eddydpyl- hope you don't mind if I join your interesting thread - interesting discussion! I had 2 thoughts
1. LaBerges original verson on MILD is different from the more commonly cited technique as described in EWOL. In the original tech developed by La Berge (c.1980) the 'mantra' is the same but the 'subject visualises his body lying asleep in bed, with rapid eye movements indicating he is dreaming. At the same time, he sees himself being in the dream just rehearsed' (my bold). The eye movement bit is interesting - I can't find the research immediately to hand but from what I remember la berge initially thought he could induce dreaming by mimicing REM's - he later ruled this out, hence its not in the EWOL book. Perhaps your friend has stumbled upon a similar finding.
2. Maybe of more interest (but along the same lines) is the possibility your friend is inducing mechanical phosphenes. Phosphenes are illusionary spots of lights as perceived by the brain. I often get people coming to see me complaining of these. Basically if you push your eye into an extreme direction of gaze (like looking straight and inward as you saw your friend) this deforms the globe of the eye (through the eye muscles yanking on it) which puts pressure on the retinal cells, stimulating them sending a message to the brain that its seeing light (sparkles, ovals) if you've got your eyes closed or its pitch black. You can get a similar effect if you rub your closed eyes for a while (sparkles/shapes - I used to do this as a kid with my eyes pushed into a pillow). The link here is that you also get (non mechanical) phosphenes when people are dropping into hypnagogic sleep - the geometric patterns that people see that then form imagery prior to WILD'ing are the same think ultimately occuring in the same place (the brain) but just of a different origin. I don't know but maybe your friend is accelerating/controlling the sleep stage by mechanically inducing the onset of these - rather than having to wait their natural onset.

I did a similar thing with my eyes around 6 nights ago (though this was the middle of the night) , I'd been trying to WILD (I'm still pretty new to LD'ing as NyxCC my excellent dream guide can vouch for! :) ), anyways I'd been waiting for about 40mins and started to get some thrumming vibrations throughout my body, I knew I should be getting close to WILDing but also knew my alarm clock was about to go off to tell me to go to work, so I squeezed my eyes looking in and up and this produced more vivid geometric patterns (like expanding snow flakes) - but I couldn't 'get into' any visualisations and after a min or two gave up. But the eye position def seemed to increase and accelerate the visual patterns (phosphenes).

Anyway - these ideas could be completely unrelated to your friends success (sorry in advance!) - but thought it might be useful to share as the phosphene connection might be another way of suggesting why your friends eye positioning helps induce lucidity.

^^ Cool! We have already figured out the ear popping thing (while awake that is) but the eyes part is still a bit of a mystery, though some have suggested possible explanations. He did recognize HH when I explained it to him but didn't give it too much importance, which doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't, as I said I had some difficulties communicating with him about this. Anyway, I didn't know about this so much appreciated :)

Great info Tlaloc! The part about more vivid phosphene stimulation with the eyes movement adds another piece to our puzzle. :goodjob2:

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Originally Posted by Eddydpyl

^^ Interesting, and as for the experimentation, I haven't had any luck either and my friend does not seem answer to my emails anymore.

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Perhaps he is just busy. I tried it again last night and did have some success with inducing more sleepiness than before. I previously bookmarked and finally now read VagalTone's link: Go Ahead…Roll Your Eyes | The Best Brain Possible and it seems to have a lot of correlation with what you are looking into here. Interesting!

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Originally Posted by fogelbise

Perhaps he is just busy. I tried it again last night and did have some success with inducing more sleepiness than before. I previously bookmarked and finally now read VagalTone's link: Go Ahead…Roll Your Eyes | The Best Brain Possible and it seems to have a lot of correlation with what you are looking into here. Interesting!

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Just read it, I remember having seen someting similar elsewhere but can't tell where. We could then say that the NREM skip (if possible) may be explained by the stimulation of the brain waves that appear in REM?

Edit: Remembered, NLP, it's mentioned in the comments section in the article.

That's weird my eyes tend to role up and my eyelids flutter by them self's when i've been lying for a long time trying to wild. Not sure if that's the same thing, it happens naturally to me and can feel quite intense and prefer it when it doesn't happen.

Just out of self curiosity I did the 'eyes up and in' thing this morning a couple of times after very brief wakings early in the mornings (so this was different from the original method in that that one was done at the start of the night). It didn't trigger any sort of WILD but it did send me back off to sleep very quickly, quicker than normal I would guess - in that I wasn't aware of drifting off rather I just dropped back to sleep - I did it once I felt sleepy (like the tech suggested), so it more or less just speed the process up. It almost seemed like an extension of a SSILD routine - focusing on sight (slight phosphenes) and sensation (eyes pulling up). I did get lucid after doing this after the 2nd attempt (second microawakening) but this was a DILD noticing an abnormality in the dream, so I don't think the eye rolling thing directly caused it. I also couldn't get the popping thing, but I was quite impressed by how it helped me return to sleep so I see no harm in incorporating it into my routine. If I notice anything new I'll let you all know. Cheers - T :)

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Originally Posted by flight

That's weird my eyes tend to role up and my eyelids flutter by them self's when i've been lying for a long time trying to wild. Not sure if that's the same thing, it happens naturally to me and can feel quite intense and prefer it when it doesn't happen.

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Humm, maybe it's just part of the transition for some people? Have you ever noticed the "plugging"?

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Originally Posted by Tlaloc

Just out of self curiosity I did the 'eyes up and in' thing this morning a couple of times after very brief wakings early in the mornings (so this was different from the original method in that that one was done at the start of the night). It didn't trigger any sort of WILD but it did send me back off to sleep very quickly, quicker than normal I would guess - in that I wasn't aware of drifting off rather I just dropped back to sleep - I did it once I felt sleepy (like the tech suggested), so it more or less just speed the process up. It almost seemed like an extension of a SSILD routine - focusing on sight (slight phosphenes) and sensation (eyes pulling up). I did get lucid after doing this after the 2nd attempt (second microawakening) but this was a DILD noticing an abnormality in the dream, so I don't think the eye rolling thing directly caused it. I also couldn't get the popping thing, but I was quite impressed by how it helped me return to sleep so I see no harm in incorporating it into my routine. If I notice anything new I'll let you all know. Cheers - T :)

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Looking forward to it :) I myself can't seem to be able to get anywhere with this method, though WILD was never one of my strong points so...

Yes if plugging is the outside sounds get plugged out and i start hearing my own internal sounds? Not sure totally what is meant by plugging. I would think that would be the same for most people though when they are around the hypnogogic or hypnopompic states.
I would hate to be seen as a expert at WILD or natural lucid dreamer like your friend, I have to work hard like most people but enjoy it and have more DILD's than anything else.
I guess the spontaneous eye movements would be an indication that my brain is starting the generating process. Many people may not get the eye movements as with the usual buzzing, spinning, humming and vibrations, i don't know. As for inducing a LD by eye movements i'm not sure it would work. But its always fun to play around and give things a try.

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Originally Posted by flight

Yes if plugging is the outside sounds get plugged out and i start hearing my own internal sounds? Not sure totally what is meant by plugging. I would think that would be the same for most people though when they are around the hypnogogic or hypnopompic states.
I would hate to be seen as a expert at WILD or natural lucid dreamer like your friend, I have to work hard like most people but enjoy it and have more DILD's than anything else.
I guess the spontaneous eye movements would be an indication that my brain is starting the generating process. Many people may not get the eye movements as with the usual buzzing, spinning, humming and vibrations, i don't know. As for inducing a LD by eye movements i'm not sure it would work. But its always fun to play around and give things a try.

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It definitely is :)

Not even the OP is entirely sure about what exactly the plugging refers to :tongue:, my friend described it as follows: A gradual but fast transition from hearing outside sounds as we normally do to hearing them but muffled, half as loud. When this happened, if he focused too much on external sounds the "plugs" will go away and the sound come back. He could possibly be referring to his attention drifting to the HH, if that's what you mean by internal sounds.

The relationship between the plugging and the eyes is still unclear though, as well as how one triggers the other. :uhm:

I hope you guys don't mind if I chime in with a little less enthusiasm:

[Initially I read the OP and kind of rolled my own eyes, and decided I would heed my mother's advice and stay silent if I had nothing nice to say. But then I followed the thread with growing interest and a little chagrin, and, finally after a nudge from Eddy, I figured I should add my 2 cents.]

First, I think Eddy's friend might be a little confused about his "technique." You guys already covered most of what was really going on -- that this was just a version of SSILD/WILD. Aside from wondering why a "natural" would need a technique at all, I also must emphasize that rolling your eyes up in your head and plugging your ears will not make you lucid all by itself. If it could, I would have been saying so myself many years ago.

Why? Well, funny coincidence here, but very often (not always -- I'm a bit lazy) I myself turn my eyes upward during WILD dives. I do this because -- as has been known by the meditation crowd for centuries -- for some reason turning your (closed) eyes upward seems to help you with visualizing; probably because your eyes are not looking forward and trying to "see" through your closed eyelids what you are visualizing and adding a blank image to your visualization (sorry third-eye guys; the effect is probably that simple). So, if you can manage it, turning your eyes up can help, but doing so won't make you lucid, it'll only assist in the process.

Regarding the ear thing: I'm not real sure what Eddy's friend was talking about, though it sounds like he was recognizing a bit of HI as he fell asleep. I highly doubt that plugging your ears would make absolutely any difference at all, and no, there is no muscle meant to close ears off from sound. This ear-plugging thing is very obvious, and would have been common by now, if it were significant. Again, given that I personally have worn ear plugs many, many times without noticing any difference in my WILD process (even when I had my eyes rolled up at the same time), I must add anecdotally that there really is no relation between plugging your ears/rolling your eyes and lucidity.

I really think Eddy's friend was making the wrong connections, perhaps is enjoying an extremely unusual ability, or (though I hope not) might just be either pulling Eddy's leg or making stuff up to impress him.

That said, given the excitement and depth of the conversation that ensued here, I think it's a great idea that you guys are pursuing this. Though at best you might get better at visualization and maybe have a few placebo WILD's, at least the conversation is moving forward, and we're learning more about the things that happen while we're falling asleep.

So I hope you don't mind my interjection, and be assured I do so with the best of intentions, no matter how negative I may appear.

tl;dr: Rolling your eyes up and plugging your ears will not make you instantly lucid, at least not after the placebo effect wears off.

Just thought I'd add - I tried this again this morning and did get lucid ( :) ), but much as my prev post I think this was not due to the eye rolling thing per se. Firstly again this was a DILD preceded by NLD'ing, and it followed 6hrs of sleep (and I didn't get any ear pop thing at all).
BUT I think it did help me return to sleep quicker (as I mentioned before) so I am happy to add it onto my routine. It almost felt a bit like doing that relaxation technique where you clench various muscles and relax them - jamming up eyes up and in took some effort to maintain, and then I slowly relaxed from it into sleep, the added advantage was that it had an added visualization effect, some of this seemed to be the soft phosphenes (light show) from the retinal stimulation (subtle but there) and part might be what sageous and others have mentioned as a sort of soft psychological link to the eye and brain thing (we often look up when we day dream).

anyway - no harm came from it, I got to sleep quick and lucid so I am happily adding it my routine! Thanks for mentioning it again :)

Thank you Sageous. :) I definitely always lean in when you are chiming in to a thread I am following. I see you also updated your LD count at some point, nice!

I think it likely just coincidence, but yesterday at the onset of a 15 minute nap I did the eye roll and did get muted audio senses...it never did this during WBTB or daytime tests for me so far. I tried the eye roll again last night during WBTB, primarily for the relaxing effect but also experimenting to see if anything else was noticed and did not note the muted audio senses. I got lucid again last night, but like Tlaloc I don't think it had anything to do with the eye roll but much to do with my refocus on the RRC (thank you again Sageous!). It was also a DILD. An exhilarating one that has me a little more active on DV than I have been in a while!

Thanks for coming by Sageous! I wouldn't think my friend told me anything wanting to impress or lie to me, he did seem at a loss for words trying to describe his method though. So we probably miscommunicated. Either that or he's a marvelous liar. We have at least learnt lots (I for sure have), so thanks everyone :)

I'll keep on investigating anyways, and inform if I learn anything new.

Hi guys, I forgot to mention this in all of my previous posts but I have this weird feeling where I lay down with my eyes closed and I feel like I'm spinning around floating very fast. This always happens when I tried to look at something very close to my eyes, the only difference is that there is nothing near me to look at and instead I focus on my eyelids. This same thing has happened during some of my WILDs where I didn't do the eye thing.

Sounds like HH to me, ¿you feel this when looking at something when awake or asleep?

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Originally Posted by Eddydpyl

Sounds like HH to me, ¿you feel this when looking at something when awake or asleep?

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I can do this whenever I want, I just close my eyes and focus on the eyelids. I don't do it very often cause it often causes me to stay awake for several hours.

Well I've felt exactly that but as HH, mening I can't trigger it at will.