Read http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67632 , Reply here to stay on topic ;)
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Read http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67632 , Reply here to stay on topic ;)
Your right, you don't "need" SP to WILD. But it usually occurs in a WILD attempt. So is that the purpose of this thread, or is it supposed to be a continuation of the other one?
All the argueing in that other thread seems to be over words and what, in this case, sleep paralysis actually means. My definition of sleep paralysis is simple, your body is paralyzed when IT (meaning your body) is asleep.
I don't think you can really avoid SP in attempting a WILD. Which is why I stick to DILD, because I hate SP - of course you don't need it but it's there, for the torment :P
The underlying problem in the thread appears to be disagreement over what "sleep paralysis" refers to.
Some in the thread think of sleep paralysis as being just that, paralyzed while asleep. This is what happens basically every night when you fall asleep.
Others refer to sleep paralysis as being the HI, sounds, and sensations you sometimes experience on your way to sleep. There is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence on the forums that these sensations are in no way required to WILD successfully.
We need clarification on the term. What exactly does "SP" refer to?
Precisely :) LaBerge used SP as a general term to refer to REM atonia, as well as the occurrence of muscle paralysis outside of REM sleep, the strange sensations of buzzing, vibrating, etc... but sleep paralysis (the Hag Phenomenon) is the paralysis of your body when you wake up from or just before sleep... it's called isolated sleep paralysis, it's considered a disorder! So it's got quite a misleading name to begin with, seeing as you are no longer asleep when you experience it (as opposed to REM atonia). Then there are the hallucinations that your partially-dreaming mind uses to explain the sensations, etc... sort of a byproduct, if you will, but most importantly, the experience of isolated sleep paralysis is considered a disorder; clearly if we are finding ways to 'induce' this it isn't really a strict disorder, I guess hence the dropping of "isolated" and the retention of "sleep paralysis" even in the absence of sleep. But sleep paralysis, by definition, is the experience of REM atonia. So unless you are trying to move your body and you try to get out of bed and you are paralyzed, you aren't experiencing sleep paralysis. If you experience the 'derivative symptoms' (*shrug*), you still aren't actually experiencing sleep paralysis. You're experiencing some weird buzzing and shit. Even when you hallucinate that there are witches and evil shit and your body is buzzing or falling out the wazoo, you still aren't experiencing sleep paralysis, you're just buzzing and hallucinating. I guess the big problem is that these SP derived symptoms don't have a name of their own, so SP is used to cover REM atonia (normally and naturally), sleep paralysis as a disorder, sleep paralysis as an induced state by keeping your mind awake intentionally while drifting asleep and then finding that you can't move your body (which requires that you try to move your body), as well as all the hallucinations and weird perceptions you get as you fall asleep and experience REM atonia setting in early. And, most notably, the onset of REM atonia is not something that you experience unless you are trying to physically move your body and finding yourself paralyzed. So unless during a WILD attempt you decide to get out of bed and dance but find that you can't, no one is actually experiencing sleep paralysis while WILDing. The atonia related perceptions may or may not be experienced during a WILD, but if you aren't finding your body to be paralyzed, you aren't experiencing SP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Licity
I have a paper due in like 6 hours that I haven't started, so that's that for now. I have no idea what I said, please pick it apart!
can someone give me an estimate of how long it would take for sp to come about? like.. tried counting in your sleep? then how long it takes?
.. or is it bad to count at all?
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/...rticlekey=9811
Quote:
Definition of Atonia, REM sleep
Atonia, REM sleep : A frightening form of paralysis that occurs when a person suddenly finds himself or herself unable to move for a few minutes, most often upon falling asleep or waking up. Commonly called sleep paralysis, the condition is due to an ill-timed disconnection between the brain and the body.
The symptoms of sleep paralysis include sensations of noises, smells, levitation, paralysis, terror, and images of frightening intruders. Once considered very rare, about half of all people are now believed to experience sleep paralysis sometime during their life.
Sleep paralysis strikes as a person is moving into or out of REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, the deepest part of sleep. During REM sleep the body is largely disconnected from the brain leaving the body paralyzed. Sleep paralysis is the result of premature (or persistent) mind-body disconnection as one is about to enter into (or exit from) REM sleep.
You missed the most important part:Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
Although it does say that all the hallucinations and terrors are symptoms of SP, it does say that you have find yourself unable to move- so the criteria being that you tried to move, found you couldn't, and then experienced all the other stuff, I guess. I don't like that site, just the way it starts out makes it seem illegitimate.Quote:
Sleep paralysis strikes as a person is moving into or out of REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, the deepest part of sleep. During REM sleep the body is largely disconnected from the brain leaving the body paralyzed.[this is atonia...] Sleep paralysis is the result of premature (or persistent) mind-body disconnection as one is about to enter into (or exit from) REM sleep.
This one does it better, nice and clear:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O87-REMatonia.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O87...paralysis.html
And here is a great and easy read that I found linked on that site that is informative about REM in general:
http://www.ajpe.org/legacy/pdfs/aj620216.pdf
Best part:
ahahahaQuote:
"Generally, REM dreams are longer, more visual, more bizarre, and not as related to actual life events. Those dreams in which Elvis is skateboarding with your mother but it's not really your mother, it's really your cat, and suddenly Elvis has turned into Bullwinkle, although he still sings very well, is probably a REM sleep dream. Or incipient mental illness."
Wasn't thor banging on about him the only way you can know your in sleep paralysis is by trying to move and being unable to.
Is in not equally possible to be in sleep paralysis (or REM atonia or whatever), and, by willing yourself to move, break out of it.
Numerous posters have described this. Being able to move but being sluggish and slow initially.
yes you can break out of it. what basically happens is your mind wakes your body up. Thats why it doesnt go on forever, any time you "break" out of sleep paralysis, it is because your mind "willed" it to happen through its own means.
I guess I can only speak for myself here, but still - when reading the word "sleep paralyzis", the only thing I think about is not being able to move "while in bed" (I use the words "while in bed" on purpose, because I do not want to imply any specific situation or time I want to associate it with).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionsroar
As to answer your question - or at least telling you about my personal experiences - it's not a specific stage that happens after some time, it just happens when your mind enters your dream, and stops when you wake up.
Try the "first grab" method - the following things have happened to me when trying it:
-) I actually moved my body, and the dream scene disappeared -> I was too awake
-) The dream scene faded while I moved my dream body, and my physical body only moved a few inches
-) As the dream scene faded away I moved around in it for a short time, and my physical body wasn't moving *at all* until the scene had faded away completely.
-) I was in a lucid dream
My guess is that it's different for everybody. Our understanding of the brain is too limited to know exactly how things work. Maybe for some people it actually is a "stage" while falling asleep, where first the mind disconnects from the physical body, and only *then* starts creating the dream scene, which then also creates the possibility of being "stuck" in this stage... Clearly not the most comfortable thing to wish for ;)
Unless we want to hopelessly confuse the discussion, let's first distinguish between REM atonia and sleep paralysis, the former being natural and the latter being a sleep disorder.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
If you are in sleep paralysis, you cannot possibly know that you have it before you have tried to move and failed. If you don't report the symptom, you don't have the disorder. It would be analogous to saying "I had a horrible headache; I didn't feel any pain at all, but I just know I had it."
If you're in REM atonia the experience is maximally internal, so you feel and control your dream body instead of your real body, hence no experience of REM atonia.
They haven't really described it. They have described their interpretation of an experience in which they assume they know when they are in REM atonia, when it is in fact highly unlikely that they can know this. Most likely they were not in REM at all, hence they were able to move just fine.Quote:
Is in not equally possible to be in sleep paralysis (or REM atonia or whatever), and, by willing yourself to move, break out of it.
Numerous posters have described this.
I've seen many people here on DV say things like: "be careful not to move, or you'll break SP." What kind of paralysis "breaks" when you try to move? None; it's a contradiction.
When you fall asleep there is loss of muscle tone. Yet you are fully able to move even though your movements will be sluggish. People turn and toss in their sleep all through the night, except of course when they are in REM sleep.Quote:
Being able to move but being sluggish and slow initially.
Thanks for digging up these nice references, Shift.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shift
Yes, this is generally the case. If you read a description of a vivid, clearly recalled dream it's most likely an REM dream. But in a certain percentage of cases it will be an NREM dream. Studies disagree on how big this percentage is, but the suggested numbers are in the range 5-30%.Quote:
And here is a great and easy read that I found linked on that site that is informative about REM in general:
http://www.ajpe.org/legacy/pdfs/aj620216.pdf
Best part:
"Generally, REM dreams are longer, more visual, more bizarre, and not as related to actual life events. Those dreams in which Elvis is skateboarding with your mother but it's not really your mother, it's really your cat, and suddenly Elvis has turned into Bullwinkle, although he still sings very well, is probably a REM sleep dream. Or incipient mental illness."
I think you are on to something here, Shift. This is probably close to the source of all the confusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shift
There are two kinds of sleep paralysis (in the sense of a disorder):
- Common sleep paralysis (CSP). This is the most common kind of SP. It means that you are in the awake state, you find you can't move, and you typically get scared. It lasts for a short time, and it usually occurs when waking up and rarely when falling asleep.
- Hallucinatory sleep paralysis (HSP), also known as hypnagogic sleep paralysis. This is rare and seems to be geographically episodic. The main difference between this and CSP is that it is also accompanied by hallucinations and can last for several minutes.
So maybe what happened was that some people started interpreting their perfectly normal hypnagogic hallucinations as symptoms of HSP, even though they hadn't experienced any kind of paralysis.
A conclusions which is based on the definition you've decided is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
Not particularly useful though in a community where the definition of "sleep paralysis" is collectively understood as what we experience
as we enter the dream state.
I'm not having a go. Just saying that semantic squabbles may be a bit of a waste of time.
I would say that the commonly understood definition of "sleep paralysis" on this forum is when you body goes into a mode which prevents actions in dreams from being acted out in the waking body.
Yes, there is a condition in which people can wake and not be able to move and experience fear and visions. But this is rare and, as you say, a medical condition.
But it seems to me that the insistance that "if you can move you weren't in sleep paralysis" is a false one (again based on the lucid dreaming communitys largely agreed definition). It seems perfectly reasonable to me that you can be in SP mode, and get out of it if and when you decide to do so. I would like to test this theory with the experiences of the community.
Though of course, as this interupts WILD attempts, most would choose not to.
Well, I would argue that the more types of experiences and phenomena you include in the definition, the more confusing it is, and the harder it becomes to have any fruitful conversation about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
This argument rests on your assumption that you can know when you are in REM sleep, but as far as I can see you still haven't explained how you can know this. What if you actually were in NREM sleep and only assumed you were in REM? And why would the difference matter to you at all?Quote:
But it seems to me that the insistance that "if you can move you weren't in sleep paralysis" is a false one (again based on the lucid dreaming communitys largely agreed definition). It seems perfectly reasonable to me that you can be in SP mode, and get out of it if and when you decide to do so.
You're still in semantic squabble mode.
I thought we'd already determined that it is possible to be in SP without being asleep and dreaming.
(That is SP as the community commonly knows it. Rem Atonia if you prefer)
Commonly called "sleep paralysis".Quote:
A frightening form of paralysis that occurs when a person suddenly finds himself or herself unable to move for a few minutes, most often upon falling asleep or waking up. Commonly called sleep paralysis, the condition is due to an ill-timed disconnection between the brain and the body.
They're not wrong are they? Regardless of the strict medical terms.
Of course. The prevalent theory is that sleep paralysis (the sleep disorder) is caused by REM atonia occurring outside of REM sleep. And your point was?Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
Actually I think it's really important that we do argue over semantics and set all of this straight. The more and more I read on DV, the more and more I realize that most of the people on here who talk about 'SP' have no idea what it is that they are talking about and as a result are having trouble lucid dreaming. Besides the desire for my own knowledge, and the desire for people to know what they are talking about (especially when they are writing tutorials or giving advice to others), as a DG I'm really realizing how this umbrella "SP" term is causing a lot of confusion and trouble and undue stress. The whole point of this site is to educate about what LDing is and how it can be achieved, and I'm starting to realize how critical it is that we all understand all the different stages of sleep and what and when we should be expecting things to occur.
I mean for starters, all the people trying to WILD when they first go to bed at night, and trying to get 'into SP'. :? Technically speaking, with what SP actually is, that is not gonna happen for at least an hour and a half, and it's only going to be a possibility for about ten minutes. Even though it's pretty common knowledge with people who pay attention to sleep cycles, I think the majority of people trying to WILD by using SP aren't understanding REM atonia, when it can occur, when SP can occur (with the literal definition of SP), blah blah blah.
Shift, I agree with you, the SP-term is confusing.
I havn't been reading all of the post in this thread or the other in which u guys were dicussing the use of this term - SP. Although, I come to the conclusion that this thread will ultimatly be rather useless unless the conclusions of this thread, including the nature of the term of SP, is saved somehow.
I loved the initiative taken by the DG's to clean up the tutorials section, and I couldn't help thinking that maybe you guys (DG's)could make some kind of list or list of threads explaining commonly used terms, like u did with the tutorials . This would be benificial as there would be established a kind of concensus or authority on the use of the terms. Discussions on dreams, techs and so on would be much easier if we all talked about the same thing! The first thread in which you guys talked about the nature of SP is a good example of the problem.
Explaniations on basic and more advanced terms used frequently on this forum would be appriciated by many I think. And for n00bs it would be much easier to get in to ld's if there was more info avalibe on the site to begin with.
i'm sorry if my english seem sloppy, it is a second language for me and im reeeealy tierd :)
please answer (especiallt you Shift as you're a DG :)) /Olof
No problem, your english was perfect :) Something like this is actually in the works, and another reason I think it's important to establish what all of these things that people commonly attribute to SP are!!Quote:
Originally Posted by ollei
Glad to hear you guys are working on this! Good luck! :)
Maybe you can get Laberge to change the terminology in the next edition of
Exploring the World Of Lucid Dreaming.
Oh man.... If I were ever able to talk to him... I'm not sure I'd waste my words on sleep paralysis...! hahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by moonshine