Thread: What Sleep Paralysis Is, and Why You Don't 'Need' It to WILD

Originally Posted by moonshine

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/...rticlekey=9811

You missed the most important part:

Sleep paralysis strikes as a person is moving into or out of REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, the deepest part of sleep. During REM sleep the body is largely disconnected from the brain leaving the body paralyzed.[this is atonia...] Sleep paralysis is the result of premature (or persistent) mind-body disconnection as one is about to enter into (or exit from) REM sleep.

Although it does say that all the hallucinations and terrors are symptoms of SP, it does say that you have find yourself unable to move- so the criteria being that you tried to move, found you couldn't, and then experienced all the other stuff, I guess. I don't like that site, just the way it starts out makes it seem illegitimate.

This one does it better, nice and clear:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O87-REMatonia.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O87...paralysis.html

And here is a great and easy read that I found linked on that site that is informative about REM in general:

http://www.ajpe.org/legacy/pdfs/aj620216.pdf

Best part:

"Generally, REM dreams are longer, more visual, more bizarre, and not as related to actual life events. Those dreams in which Elvis is skateboarding with your mother but it's not really your mother, it's really your cat, and suddenly Elvis has turned into Bullwinkle, although he still sings very well, is probably a REM sleep dream. Or incipient mental illness."

ahahaha

Wasn't thor banging on about him the only way you can know your in sleep paralysis is by trying to move and being unable to.

Is in not equally possible to be in sleep paralysis (or REM atonia or whatever), and, by willing yourself to move, break out of it.

Numerous posters have described this. Being able to move but being sluggish and slow initially.

yes you can break out of it. what basically happens is your mind wakes your body up. Thats why it doesnt go on forever, any time you "break" out of sleep paralysis, it is because your mind "willed" it to happen through its own means.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Wasn't thor banging on about him the only way you can know your in sleep paralysis is by trying to move and being unable to.

Unless we want to hopelessly confuse the discussion, let's first distinguish between REM atonia and sleep paralysis, the former being natural and the latter being a sleep disorder.

If you are in sleep paralysis, you cannot possibly know that you have it before you have tried to move and failed. If you don't report the symptom, you don't have the disorder. It would be analogous to saying "I had a horrible headache; I didn't feel any pain at all, but I just know I had it."

If you're in REM atonia the experience is maximally internal, so you feel and control your dream body instead of your real body, hence no experience of REM atonia.

Is in not equally possible to be in sleep paralysis (or REM atonia or whatever), and, by willing yourself to move, break out of it.

Numerous posters have described this.

They haven't really described it. They have described their interpretation of an experience in which they assume they know when they are in REM atonia, when it is in fact highly unlikely that they can know this. Most likely they were not in REM at all, hence they were able to move just fine.

I've seen many people here on DV say things like: "be careful not to move, or you'll break SP." What kind of paralysis "breaks" when you try to move? None; it's a contradiction.

Being able to move but being sluggish and slow initially.

When you fall asleep there is loss of muscle tone. Yet you are fully able to move even though your movements will be sluggish. People turn and toss in their sleep all through the night, except of course when they are in REM sleep.

Originally Posted by Thor

Unless we want to hopelessly confuse the discussion, let's first distinguish between REM atonia and sleep paralysis, the former being natural and the latter being a sleep disorder.

If you are in sleep paralysis, you cannot possibly know that you have it before you have tried to move and failed. If you don't report the symptom, you don't have the disorder. It would be analogous to saying "I had a horrible headache; I didn't feel any pain at all, but I just know I had it."

A conclusions which is based on the definition you've decided is correct.
Not particularly useful though in a community where the definition of "sleep paralysis" is collectively understood as what we experience
as we enter the dream state.

I'm not having a go. Just saying that semantic squabbles may be a bit of a waste of time.

I would say that the commonly understood definition of "sleep paralysis" on this forum is when you body goes into a mode which prevents actions in dreams from being acted out in the waking body.

Yes, there is a condition in which people can wake and not be able to move and experience fear and visions. But this is rare and, as you say, a medical condition.

But it seems to me that the insistance that "if you can move you weren't in sleep paralysis" is a false one (again based on the lucid dreaming communitys largely agreed definition). It seems perfectly reasonable to me that you can be in SP mode, and get out of it if and when you decide to do so. I would like to test this theory with the experiences of the community.

Though of course, as this interupts WILD attempts, most would choose not to.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Not particularly useful though in a community where the definition of "sleep paralysis" is collectively understood as what we experience as we enter the dream state.

Well, I would argue that the more types of experiences and phenomena you include in the definition, the more confusing it is, and the harder it becomes to have any fruitful conversation about it.

But it seems to me that the insistance that "if you can move you weren't in sleep paralysis" is a false one (again based on the lucid dreaming communitys largely agreed definition). It seems perfectly reasonable to me that you can be in SP mode, and get out of it if and when you decide to do so.

This argument rests on your assumption that you can know when you are in REM sleep, but as far as I can see you still haven't explained how you can know this. What if you actually were in NREM sleep and only assumed you were in REM? And why would the difference matter to you at all?

You're still in semantic squabble mode.
I thought we'd already determined that it is possible to be in SP without being asleep and dreaming.


(That is SP as the community commonly knows it. Rem Atonia if you prefer)

A frightening form of paralysis that occurs when a person suddenly finds himself or herself unable to move for a few minutes, most often upon falling asleep or waking up. Commonly called sleep paralysis, the condition is due to an ill-timed disconnection between the brain and the body.

Commonly called "sleep paralysis".
They're not wrong are they? Regardless of the strict medical terms.

Originally Posted by moonshine

You're still in semantic squabble mode.
I thought we'd already determined that it is possible to be in SP without being asleep and dreaming.

(That is SP as the community commonly knows it. Rem Atonia if you prefer)

Of course. The prevalent theory is that sleep paralysis (the sleep disorder) is caused by REM atonia occurring outside of REM sleep. And your point was?

Originally Posted by Thor

If you are in sleep paralysis, you cannot possibly know that you have it before you have tried to move and failed. If you don't report the symptom, you don't have the disorder. It would be analogous to saying "I had a horrible headache; I didn't feel any pain at all, but I just know I had it."

first off when you are asleep, that is SP. so, if you know you are dreaming, then do you know that you can't move? and do you figure this out without really trying to move? serious tho, i'm not sure what will make you feel SP (like a hag) or if you even have control over that, but there is more than just trying to move.

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

first off when you are asleep, that is SP. so, if you know you are dreaming, then do you know that you can't move? and do you figure this out without really trying to move? serious tho, i'm not sure what will make you feel SP (like a hag) or if you even have control over that, but there is more than just trying to move.

No, that is REM atonia. You are confusing the two.

Also, hallucinations =/= sleep paralysis.

Originally Posted by Shift

No, that is REM atonia. You are confusing the two.

Also, hallucinations =/= sleep paralysis.

But as noted, we're simply using the term in the way laberge does.

The exact precise scientific term may be REM atonia (though given recent evidence the REM part may be not be technically accurate either).
But that doesn't mean the simple term "sleep paralysis" is incorrect.

I realise this is a bug bear of yours (and mine) but really, whats in a name.

When I look at the sky I see clouds, not "A visible body of very fine water droplets or ice particles suspended in the atmosphere".

Its simply a case of semantics. REM atonia may be the strict technical medical description of the same.
But "Sleep paralysis" is a perfectly acceptable description for the same.

I think most DVers understand the difference between whats meant by Sleep paralysis as a normal biological function in Rem sleep and "Sleep paralysis" the condition. In which case telling every one who uses the term sleep paralysis that they're wrong
may simply add to confusion rather than clear things up.

I have to say, even if you, Thor and I all eventually agree on acceptable terminology (assuming we have the right),
the chances of encouraging the rest of the lucid community to adopt the same is remote at best.

I'm also not convinced there is truly a need to do so.

If it works for you and gets you lucid, do it.

Originally Posted by Shift

This one does it better, nice and clear:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O87-REMatonia.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O87...paralysis.html

Thanks for digging up these nice references, Shift.

And here is a great and easy read that I found linked on that site that is informative about REM in general:

http://www.ajpe.org/legacy/pdfs/aj620216.pdf

Best part:

"Generally, REM dreams are longer, more visual, more bizarre, and not as related to actual life events. Those dreams in which Elvis is skateboarding with your mother but it's not really your mother, it's really your cat, and suddenly Elvis has turned into Bullwinkle, although he still sings very well, is probably a REM sleep dream. Or incipient mental illness."

Yes, this is generally the case. If you read a description of a vivid, clearly recalled dream it's most likely an REM dream. But in a certain percentage of cases it will be an NREM dream. Studies disagree on how big this percentage is, but the suggested numbers are in the range 5-30%.