So, what you're trying to say is that most of the members are lieing!
:eek:
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So, what you're trying to say is that most of the members are lieing!
:eek:
Not lying, just misinformed. There is a sleep disorder, then there are some common hallucinations that most people experience while falling asleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanquis
It's like calling schizophrenia artistic inspiration. You may get inspired by the hallucinations and paranoia you get from the disorder, and you may just get inspiration all on your own, but being inspired in and of itself doesn't give you schizophrenia. Not just that, but its stupid for people to wander around claiming to have a disorder when all they can do is paint canvasses. It gets much more complicated because, say, you can only be inspired at 3 in the morning while you tend to experience schizophrenic 'attacks' of hallucinations at 7 in the morning that may or may not inspire you.
I don't know that's a bad analogy. I was going somewhere with it and then I got bored :(
Strange that they would claim that you need SP to have an OBE, because a study based on 400 cases of OBE found that this was only rarely the case:Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
"Most of Green's cases occurred to people whose physical body was lying down at the time (75%). A further 18% were sitting and the rest were walking, standing or were 'indeterminate.' In fact it seemed that muscular relaxation was an essential part of many people's experience. Just a few found that their body was paralyzed. A feeling of paralysis was found to be only rarely a prelude to an OBE."
Out of Body Experience FAQ discussing
Green, C., Out-of-the-body Experiences, London: Hamish Hamilton, 1968.
PS: I've had that "lead blanket" feeling many times, but always when I try to move I find that I'm able to, so this does not mean that you're paralyzed.
I never said you claimed that, but the video you referred to pretty much implied it.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
There ain't no such thing as "partial sleep paralysis", neither in the sense of the disorder or REM atonia, because that would be self-contradictory; if you can move you are in no way paralyzed. As I wrote in my article this is simply reduced muscle tone, and it happens naturally when you fall asleep.Quote:
As to the lead blankey feeling, the saltcube video describes this as "partial sleep paralysis".
So far so good.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
No, that does not make much sense, because then you would have to be saying that WILDs are taking place in the awake state.Quote:
On that basis, I'm going we have to conclude that Sleep Paralysis is exactly the right term to use to describe the stage which can be reached during a WILD.
Moonshine, when I'm talking to you I don't address you in the third person plural. The word "they" clearly refers to the people who made the Saltcube video.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
But I've never had any problems moving when I get the lead blanket feeling.Quote:
This is a very common phenomenon (even experienced by yourself also it seems).
I now agree? Isn't this exactly what it says in note 3 in the article I wrote?Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
Ok, let's look at it again: "On that basis, it seems conclusive that Sleep Paralysis is exactly the right term to use to describe the stage which can be reached during a WILD."Quote:
LOL. No. Read my statement.
So your own statements say:
- SP is REM atonia experienced while awake
- SP describes a stage reached during a WILD
From these statements I draw the conclusion that you you think it's possible to be awake during a WILD.
Fair nuff. My bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
Hence, the "partial" no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
Ah right. Sorry about the misunderstanding, given some of the other comments I thought we were still discussing whether or notQuote:
Originally Posted by Thor
Sleep Paralysis was acceptable terminology. Something which you originally disputed.
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67632
Again my bad. Glad we're singing from the same hymn sheet.
You might want to bring Shift up to speed though.
How about we call it a wild attempt then? :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
No. After the lead blanket feeling sets in, when I try to move I can do it just as easily as when I'm fully awake. Apparently this was also the experience of xxstimpzxx in this thread that you may recall. He says: "a few times ive felt as if i was coverd by a metal blanket, and thought i had made it but when i tried to move my arm it instantly felt normal". That's exactly what it's like.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
Ok, but then you're back to things that I already wrote about in my article. I already said that you can use SP (the disorder) to initiate WILDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
SP doesn't have to be a disorder though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
I realise I'm arguing over nothing here.
But when in rome. :P
Well I guess this isn't the same as my experience, or that described by the salt cube video, where you can move but its hard work and sluggish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
I think the problem with your write up is you are referring to sleep paralysis as it occurs in the general population. It is abnormal, and therefore considered a sleep disorder. It is experienced differently when you are actively seeking it in a WILD attempt.
I just don't see how this all applies to lucid dreaming. Seeking sleep paralysis is possible, and obviously helpful when learning to WILD. Why would you even try to argue otherwise?
How do you know that what people are experiencing in a WILD attempt is actually REM atonia occuring outside of REM? It could be some other sensation that people interpret as "sleep paralysis" because they have been told that they would get it. First year medical students are often convinced that they have all the symptoms they read about in textbooks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot_Butler
Well, certainly people could desire SP (even though it would be pointless), but I don't see how that in itself would increase the likelihood of it actually happening. I haven't come across any documentation that could support this. And since you are making this particular claim, it is up to you to find that documentation. But even the existence of a "sleep paralysis induced by wishing for it" effect wouldn't mean that this route to a WILD would be more efficient than any other route.Quote:
I just don't see how this all applies to lucid dreaming. Seeking sleep paralysis is possible, and obviously helpful when learning to WILD. Why would you even try to argue otherwise?
Why would you assume it is not? It feels like SP to the person experiencing it, happens at the same time SP happens, and has all the symptoms of SP. I can tell you from experience, it is sleep paralysis. It is so obvious, I can't see why you would hypothesize it is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
How can you say there is not documentation of people consciously inducing sleep paralysis? Are you discounting every WILD and OOBE experience that has ever included SP? You are pretty much calling everyone who posts on this forum about their SP experiences liars. That is just ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
I have to agree with RB.
Thors thesis is that it can't be "paralysis" of you can move. This is a rather constrained semantic argument. Almost a word game.
I don't see any reason why your body can't be in sleep paralysis when you're not moving, and can come out of sleep paralysis when you decide you consciously want to move. After all sleep paralysis is designed to occur when you are asleep not wake. When your body/brain twigs your actually awake, the right thing for it to do would be to shut SP down no?
Heres my proof. I felt the "wave" during wild attempts.
I've also felt it when waking up. I can only assume that this was SP switching off as I wake. This is after all what is supposed to happen.
How about: Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming. Dr Stephen Laberge. PhD. 1st edition 1990. Chapter 4: Falling Asleep Consciously. Page 108. Attention on body or self.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
Though really Thor, as your the one going railing against the common understanding and masses of anecdotal experiences, the onus does seem to be on you to prove the same before you start posting threads telling everyone else they are wrong.
And?.....This is an argument no one is actually having with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
Oh, and generally, you don't get SP by wishing for it. "Passive" is the key word here.
You are so badly confusing the natural REM atonia and the disorder Sleep Paralysis, no wonder we're having this discussion. Semantics indeed. That's like calling cancer a stubbed toe and dreaming schizophrenia.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
Not really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shift
REM Atonia = Paralysis whilst in REM sleep.
Sleep Paralysis = REM Atonia whilst conscious.
The sleeping disorder is differentiated with the tag "isolated" sleep paralysis.
I'm not sure it can be any clearer.
I finally see what you are saying about sleep paralysis as the disorder. But if that was the case, then we wouldn't even know about it. So then no one should be running around talking about sleep paralysis because most of them wouldn't even be aware that it's happening. Since most of us lack an EEG and all of that, then the only times we can know we are in sleep paralysis is when we have attempted to move and found that we were paralyzed. I have to admit that I have pretty much stopped reading the responses to this though. So if I'm a bit off that's why, I'm getting kind of bored with the discussion. Sleep paralysis is a disorder. Lucid dreamers are crazy. REM atonia happens during REM stages. Hypnagogia happens early in the sleep cycle. My eyes hurt because I'm so tired.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
So when I'm in a lucid dream during a REM stage, and I'm conscious, and my body is paralyzed, I'm in sleep paralysis?... how did we go from debating hypnagogia to also debating the use of 'sleep paralysis' to mean 'paralysis during sleep' (ie synonymous to REM atonia) anyway?
Lucid dreamers blur the boundaries between conscious and unconscious, awake and asleep. That's part of the problem, I think. We are conscious when we shouldn't be. We can hallucinate and experience things that aren't happening. We can try to break out of something we are experiencing because we were conscious enough to do so.
Anyway my main qualm is the use of 'sleep paralysis' to refer to hypnagogia. I think it is misleading and confusing for people who are trying to learn lucid dreaming. If we can all be responsible and realize that the terms are misused and leading a lot of people astray in ignorance, then maybe we as a whole community of lucid dreamers can progress. Maybe not. I don't really care. It just annoys me when, as a DG, I have to continuously correct people. I mean noobs are excited to be "in SP" which means they've made it to REM stages, but that's not the case if all they're experiencing is hypnagogia... the tip of the iceberg when it comes to falling asleep.
And I still think the name for the disorder was stupid to begin with and should be something more clear like "Persistent REM atonia" or something along those lines. "Abnormal Atonia or NREM atonia" probably since it can be experienced prior to REM sleep as well as after. :doh: bahhhhhhh
I think you've hit it on the head here, Shift. There really are no hard boundaries when it comes to consciousness and the onset of sleep. It is easy to classify different "stages" as a limited model to describe the typical experience, but it is dangerous to give too much importance to this model. That is why semantics are dangerous in a situation like this. They begin to limit our understanding of something instead of expanding it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shift
But, as discussed its quite possible to be in SP with out being in REM sleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shift
SP is indeed part of Hypnagogia.
Don't see why noobs shouldn't get excited. Its a big step in the right direction.
Obviously, since by definition sleep paralysis is REM atonia outside of REM sleep...Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
SP is not hypnagogia. It can be experienced at the same times but the majority of the time all you are getting are tactile hallucinations. Just because you are hallucinating doesn't mean that you are paralyzed. Just because you are paralyzed doesn't mean you will hallucinate. This is exactly what the problem is.
I never said no one gets sleep paralysis; some people do. The problem is when some of those people generalize their experience, and say that this is what WILDing should be like and tell newbies that this is how you induce WILDs. It is simply not the case: a feeling of being paralyzed is unnecessary for WILDing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot_Butler
A study based on 400 cases of OBE found that a feeling of being paralyzed was rare:
"Most of Green's cases occurred to people whose physical body was lying down at the time (75%). A further 18% were sitting and the rest were walking, standing or were 'indeterminate.' In fact it seemed that muscular relaxation was an essential part of many people's experience. Just a few found that their body was paralyzed. A feeling of paralysis was found to be only rarely a prelude to an OBE."
Out of Body Experience FAQ discussing
Green, C., Out-of-the-body Experiences, London: Hamish Hamilton, 1968.
I have never dismissed anyone's personal experience, but based on the available evidence I'd say that it is highly likely that many of those who have reported sleep paralysis are misinterpreting other sensations as sleep paralysis because they have heard that this is what they should expect. I've seen lots of people say that they have induced sleep paralysis, but I have never seen the evidence to support it.Quote:
How can you say there is not documentation of people consciously inducing sleep paralysis? Are you discounting every WILD and OOBE experience that has ever included SP? You are pretty much calling everyone who posts on this forum about their SP experiences liars. That is just ridiculous.
Can't be that obvious, since at the top of this page you stated:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shift
Quote:
You are so badly confusing the natural REM atonia and the disorder Sleep Paralysis, no wonder we're having this discussion. Semantics indeed. That's like calling cancer a stubbed toe and dreaming schizophrenia.
Aren't you mixing Hypnagogia with hypnogogic imagery/hallucinations?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shift
Hypnagogia as a general term used to describe physiological processes of falling asleep.
SP is indeed one of those general processes.
It's not a word game. Atonia is produced by mechanisms in the pons and medulla oblongata that gate the motor neural signals from the cortex. So how would these mechanisms distinguish between signals generated by dreamed versus non-dreamed motor behavior in the cortex? In other words, if atonia was turned on in wakefulness as you are assuming, then why would it be turned off just because you wanted it to? And how could it happen instantly the very moment you decide to move?Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
When people find themselves in sleep paralysis (the real thing), they are not able to come out of it instantly, despite desperately wanting to. Otherwise sleep paralysis could not have been detected, and hence would not have been a disorder.
I think everyone has agreed with this already though Thor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
That there are multiple ways of WILD is pretty clear.
All you need to do is check out the tutorial section.
You were pretty dismissive when you stated that there is no such thing as partial sleep paralysis. And when you stated that if you can move its not paralysis. I've already made my point on these issues so won't reitterate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
As you don't appear think anecdotal evidence counts, then I guess you will never "see" any "real" evidence.
However, in my book, as Sleep paralysis does indeed occour outside of REM Sleep, can be induced with practice, is described in several key texts, and supported by a significant amount of anecdotal evidence to suggest common experiences I'm inclinded to accept it.
It is abundantly clear from the discussion on pages 108-109 that he's talking about sleep paralysis as a disorder, and how you can turn it into an advantage by initiating WILDs from it. I already covered this in my article.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
No, the burden of proof is always on the person making the positive claim. Thus, if you say that people who do not suffer from sleep paralysis may be able to induce atonia in wakefulness, it is up to you to provide the evidence to support this.Quote:
Though really Thor, as your the one going railing against the common understanding and masses of anecdotal experiences, the onus does seem to be on you to prove the same before you start posting threads telling everyone else they are wrong.
I'm really not sure what your getting at, as you appear to be condradicting points you have already accepted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
REM attonia can and does occour outside of Rem Sleep. Hence "Sleep Paralysis". The disorder Sleep paralysis is very scary for people, but generally only lasts a minute or so. And they do break out of it. It just seems like a long time. But this is a disorder. It seems to me that it takes longer to break out of because of the state of mind. Whats to say that it can't be easier for a non-distressed mind hmmm? And who's to say its a on/off switch. Might it not be a progressive thing?
By the way, why shouldn't it turn off just because you want it too. Doesn't that just mean its doing its job as its supposed to?
I do however agree with one point, in that some may mistake partial sleep paralysis (which you do not accept) for full sleep paralysis. It is then up to others to advise them accordingly. But simply dismissing their very real physiological experiences isn't very helpful. Not saying this is you, but its something I've seen time and time again on threads.
Of He's talking about Sleep Paralysis (whether its the disorder or not). This isn't a surprise. You asked for the evidence that SP is a legitimate way of inducing a WILD. This chapter clearly shows that it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
Are we not just going over old ground here?
I'd simply refer you to the same chapter. Which describes the induction of Sleep Paralysis whilst conscious (Sleep Paralysis being REM atonia in wakefulness). You are therefore the one contradicting the evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
Its certainly not an on/off switch with which you can consciously will SP to happen. But then no one has ever claimed as much.
It is crucial to distinguish between experience and interpretation. Suppose you said: "I've got a runny nose. It must be the flu." The first sentence is your experience, the second is your interpretation of that experience. Those are two very different things. And if your doctor says: "No, I think it's most likely an allergy," it does not mean he's calling you a liar.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
I don't think it would be very hard to investigate this. Let a large number of subjects WILD under EEG and H-reflex monitoring. Then correlate self-reports of "sleep paralysis" with registered atonia and REM sleep. I'm sure the results would be interesting.Quote:
As you don't appear think anecdotal evidence counts, then I guess you will never "see" any "real" evidence.
Ah you're right, I did misread that as hypnagogic hallucinations.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
And you know that's another thing I'm going to get anal about. Because yea, people use "hypnagogia" to refer to HH. Dammit. Ughhh who started all this confusion in the first place?! :?
It seems that we are arguing the same points over and over. I don't really see this going anywhere.
Just to reiterate, since thor seems to keep ignoring the fact that:
1) You can experience sleep paralysis outside of REM sleep
2) You can remain conscious during REM sleep
3) You can actively seek sleep paralysis.
What, exactly do you think WILD is, thor? It is maintaining consciousness through all hypnagogia, into a dream. This makes moot all studies that try to pin down when sleep paralysis does and not happen. You can make it happen. If you focus on your body during a WILD, you will be aware of the changes in your body. If you move your focus away from your body during WILD, you can avoid being aware of these changes.
Maybe you should sum up your write-up by saying people can chose to use SP as a tool during WILD if they find it helpful, or can chose to avoid it if they find it unpleasant.