Thread: What Every Lucid Dreamer Should Know About Sleep Paralysis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqlhkPkpNMM

Link to extract form SALTCUBE video on Sleep Paralysis.

So, what you're trying to say is that most of the members are lieing!

Originally Posted by Sanquis

So, what you're trying to say is that most of the members are lieing!

Not lying, just misinformed. There is a sleep disorder, then there are some common hallucinations that most people experience while falling asleep.

It's like calling schizophrenia artistic inspiration. You may get inspired by the hallucinations and paranoia you get from the disorder, and you may just get inspiration all on your own, but being inspired in and of itself doesn't give you schizophrenia. Not just that, but its stupid for people to wander around claiming to have a disorder when all they can do is paint canvasses. It gets much more complicated because, say, you can only be inspired at 3 in the morning while you tend to experience schizophrenic 'attacks' of hallucinations at 7 in the morning that may or may not inspire you.

I don't know that's a bad analogy. I was going somewhere with it and then I got bored

Originally Posted by moonshine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqlhkPkpNMM

Link to extract form SALTCUBE video on Sleep Paralysis.

Strange that they would claim that you need SP to have an OBE, because a study based on 400 cases of OBE found that this was only rarely the case:

"Most of Green's cases occurred to people whose physical body was lying down at the time (75%). A further 18% were sitting and the rest were walking, standing or were 'indeterminate.' In fact it seemed that muscular relaxation was an essential part of many people's experience. Just a few found that their body was paralyzed. A feeling of paralysis was found to be only rarely a prelude to an OBE."

Out of Body Experience FAQ discussing
Green, C., Out-of-the-body Experiences, London: Hamish Hamilton, 1968.

PS: I've had that "lead blanket" feeling many times, but always when I try to move I find that I'm able to, so this does not mean that you're paralyzed.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Strange that you would claim I said you "need" SP to have an OBE/Lucid Dream.
Given that I didn't.

I never said you claimed that, but the video you referred to pretty much implied it.

As to the lead blankey feeling, the saltcube video describes this as "partial sleep paralysis".

There ain't no such thing as "partial sleep paralysis", neither in the sense of the disorder or REM atonia, because that would be self-contradictory; if you can move you are in no way paralyzed. As I wrote in my article this is simply reduced muscle tone, and it happens naturally when you fall asleep.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Thats pretty clear. SP=Where REM Atonia takes place in the waking state.

So far so good.

On that basis, I'm going we have to conclude that Sleep Paralysis is exactly the right term to use to describe the stage which can be reached during a WILD.

No, that does not make much sense, because then you would have to be saying that WILDs are taking place in the awake state.

Originally Posted by moonshine

See.

Moonshine, when I'm talking to you I don't address you in the third person plural. The word "they" clearly refers to the people who made the Saltcube video.

This is a very common phenomenon (even experienced by yourself also it seems).

But I've never had any problems moving when I get the lead blanket feeling.

Originally Posted by moonshine

So you now agree that Sleep Paralysis can legitimately be used to describe Rem Atonia whilst the mind is awake.
Phew!

I now agree? Isn't this exactly what it says in note 3 in the article I wrote?

LOL. No. Read my statement.

Ok, let's look at it again: "On that basis, it seems conclusive that Sleep Paralysis is exactly the right term to use to describe the stage which can be reached during a WILD."

So your own statements say:

• SP is REM atonia experienced while awake
• SP describes a stage reached during a WILD

From these statements I draw the conclusion that you you think it's possible to be awake during a WILD.

Originally Posted by Thor

Moonshine, when I'm talking to you I don't address you in the third person plural. The word "they" clearly refers to the people who made the Saltcube video.

Fair nuff. My bad.

Originally Posted by Thor

But I've never had any problems moving when I get the lead blanket feeling.

Hence, the "partial" no?

Originally Posted by Thor

I now agree? Isn't this exactly what it says in note 3 in the article I wrote?

Ah right. Sorry about the misunderstanding, given some of the other comments I thought we were still discussing whether or not
Sleep Paralysis was acceptable terminology. Something which you originally disputed.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67632

Again my bad. Glad we're singing from the same hymn sheet.
You might want to bring Shift up to speed though.

Originally Posted by Thor

I now agree? Isn't this exactly
Ok, let's look at it again: "On that basis, it seems conclusive that Sleep Paralysis is exactly the right term to use to describe the stage which can be reached during a WILD."

So your own statements say:

• SP is REM atonia experienced while awake
• SP describes a stage reached during a WILD

From these statements I draw the conclusion that you you think it's possible to be awake during a WILD.

How about we call it a wild attempt then?

Originally Posted by moonshine

Hence, the "partial" no?

No. After the lead blanket feeling sets in, when I try to move I can do it just as easily as when I'm fully awake. Apparently this was also the experience of xxstimpzxx in this thread that you may recall. He says: "a few times ive felt as if i was coverd by a metal blanket, and thought i had made it but when i tried to move my arm it instantly felt normal". That's exactly what it's like.

Originally Posted by moonshine

How about we call it a wild attempt then?

Ok, but then you're back to things that I already wrote about in my article. I already said that you can use SP (the disorder) to initiate WILDs.

I think the problem with your write up is you are referring to sleep paralysis as it occurs in the general population. It is abnormal, and therefore considered a sleep disorder. It is experienced differently when you are actively seeking it in a WILD attempt.

I just don't see how this all applies to lucid dreaming. Seeking sleep paralysis is possible, and obviously helpful when learning to WILD. Why would you even try to argue otherwise?

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

I think the problem with your write up is you are referring to sleep paralysis as it occurs in the general population. It is abnormal, and therefore considered a sleep disorder. It is experienced differently when you are actively seeking it in a WILD attempt.

How do you know that what people are experiencing in a WILD attempt is actually REM atonia occuring outside of REM? It could be some other sensation that people interpret as "sleep paralysis" because they have been told that they would get it. First year medical students are often convinced that they have all the symptoms they read about in textbooks.

I just don't see how this all applies to lucid dreaming. Seeking sleep paralysis is possible, and obviously helpful when learning to WILD. Why would you even try to argue otherwise?

Well, certainly people could desire SP (even though it would be pointless), but I don't see how that in itself would increase the likelihood of it actually happening. I haven't come across any documentation that could support this. And since you are making this particular claim, it is up to you to find that documentation. But even the existence of a "sleep paralysis induced by wishing for it" effect wouldn't mean that this route to a WILD would be more efficient than any other route.

Originally Posted by Thor

How do you know that what people are experiencing in a WILD attempt is actually REM atonia occuring outside of REM? It could be some other sensation that people interpret as "sleep paralysis" because they have been told that they would get it.

Why would you assume it is not? It feels like SP to the person experiencing it, happens at the same time SP happens, and has all the symptoms of SP. I can tell you from experience, it is sleep paralysis. It is so obvious, I can't see why you would hypothesize it is not.

Originally Posted by Thor

Well, certainly people could desire SP (even though it would be pointless), but I don't see how that in itself would increase the likelihood of it actually happening. I haven't come across any documentation that could support this. And since you are making this particular claim, it is up to you to find that documentation. But even the existence of a "sleep paralysis induced by wishing for it" effect wouldn't mean that this route to a WILD would be more efficient than any other route.

How can you say there is not documentation of people consciously inducing sleep paralysis? Are you discounting every WILD and OOBE experience that has ever included SP? You are pretty much calling everyone who posts on this forum about their SP experiences liars. That is just ridiculous.

Originally Posted by moonshine

How about: Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming. Dr Stephen Laberge. PhD. 1st edition 1990. Chapter 4: Falling Asleep Consciously. Page 108. Attention on body or self.

It is abundantly clear from the discussion on pages 108-109 that he's talking about sleep paralysis as a disorder, and how you can turn it into an advantage by initiating WILDs from it. I already covered this in my article.

Though really Thor, as your the one going railing against the common understanding and masses of anecdotal experiences, the onus does seem to be on you to prove the same before you start posting threads telling everyone else they are wrong.

No, the burden of proof is always on the person making the positive claim. Thus, if you say that people who do not suffer from sleep paralysis may be able to induce atonia in wakefulness, it is up to you to provide the evidence to support this.

Originally Posted by Thor

Ok, but then you're back to things that I already wrote about in my article. I already said that you can use SP (the disorder) to initiate WILDs.

SP doesn't have to be a disorder though.

I realise I'm arguing over nothing here.
But when in rome.

Originally Posted by Thor

No. After the lead blanket feeling sets in, when I try to move I can do it just as easily as when I'm fully awake. Apparently this was also the experience of xxstimpzxx in this thread that you may recall. He says: "a few times ive felt as if i was coverd by a metal blanket, and thought i had made it but when i tried to move my arm it instantly felt normal". That's exactly what it's like.

Well I guess this isn't the same as my experience, or that described by the salt cube video, where you can move but its hard work and sluggish.

Great post, although I haven't read it all, it appears to be very imformative and literate. Also, there are various negatives that may occur throughout ones life that can increase the odds of sleeping paralysis, not that any of them are wishful enough; for any of them to be valuable enough to be induced in order to achieve sleeping paralysis and then a lucid dream, depression can influence it effectively. Sleeping paralysis still occurs a lot to me, not most recently, but throughout this year, it has occurred a lot of times in contrast to previous years; sleeping paralysis had started back in February 2006 for myself. My initial speculation over the experience was to be the fact that it was something of which was spiritual, perhaps a ghost hauting me or something as such. However, my perception changed when I understood more of sleep psychology. Also, I've noticed for one thing to occur whilst in a sleeping paralysis, or mostly upon, is the lack of memory - more recently, I would find it difficult to remember the sleep paralysis, as well as the lack of lucidity. Although I'd know it wasn't real, I still wouldn't be able to eliminate any auditory, sensory or visual hallucinations.