Thread: What Every Lucid Dreamer Should Know About Sleep Paralysis

Originally Posted by Shift

I mean noobs are excited to be "in SP" which means they've made it to REM stages, but that's not the case if all they're experiencing is hypnagogia... the tip of the iceberg when it comes to falling asleep.

But, as discussed its quite possible to be in SP with out being in REM sleep.
SP is indeed part of Hypnagogia.

Don't see why noobs shouldn't get excited. Its a big step in the right direction.

Originally Posted by moonshine

But, as discussed its quite possible to be in SP with out being in REM sleep.
SP is indeed part of Hypnagogia.

Don't see why noobs shouldn't get excited. Its a big step in the right direction.

Obviously, since by definition sleep paralysis is REM atonia outside of REM sleep...

SP is not hypnagogia. It can be experienced at the same times but the majority of the time all you are getting are tactile hallucinations. Just because you are hallucinating doesn't mean that you are paralyzed. Just because you are paralyzed doesn't mean you will hallucinate. This is exactly what the problem is.

Originally Posted by Shift

Obviously, since by definition sleep paralysis is REM atonia outside of REM sleep...

Can't be that obvious, since at the top of this page you stated:

You are so badly confusing the natural REM atonia and the disorder Sleep Paralysis, no wonder we're having this discussion. Semantics indeed. That's like calling cancer a stubbed toe and dreaming schizophrenia.

Originally Posted by Shift

SP is not hypnagogia. It can be experienced at the same times but the majority of the time all you are getting are tactile hallucinations. Just because you are hallucinating doesn't mean that you are paralyzed. Just because you are paralyzed doesn't mean you will hallucinate. This is exactly what the problem is.

Aren't you mixing Hypnagogia with hypnogogic imagery/hallucinations?
Hypnagogia as a general term used to describe physiological processes of falling asleep.
SP is indeed one of those general processes.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Can't be that obvious, since at the top of this page you stated:




Aren't you mixing Hypnagogia with hypnogogic imagery/hallucinations?
Hypnagogia as a general term used to describe physiological processes of falling asleep.
SP is indeed one of those general processes.

Ah you're right, I did misread that as hypnagogic hallucinations.

And you know that's another thing I'm going to get anal about. Because yea, people use "hypnagogia" to refer to HH. Dammit. Ughhh who started all this confusion in the first place?!

It seems that we are arguing the same points over and over. I don't really see this going anywhere.

Just to reiterate, since thor seems to keep ignoring the fact that:

1) You can experience sleep paralysis outside of REM sleep
2) You can remain conscious during REM sleep
3) You can actively seek sleep paralysis.

What, exactly do you think WILD is, thor? It is maintaining consciousness through all hypnagogia, into a dream. This makes moot all studies that try to pin down when sleep paralysis does and not happen. You can make it happen. If you focus on your body during a WILD, you will be aware of the changes in your body. If you move your focus away from your body during WILD, you can avoid being aware of these changes.

Maybe you should sum up your write-up by saying people can chose to use SP as a tool during WILD if they find it helpful, or can chose to avoid it if they find it unpleasant.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

It seems that we are arguing the same points over and over. I don't really see this going anywhere.

Just to reiterate, since thor seems to keep ignoring the fact that:

1) You can experience sleep paralysis outside of REM sleep
2) You can remain conscious during REM sleep
3) You can actively seek sleep paralysis.

What, exactly do you think WILD is, thor? It is maintaining consciousness through all hypnagogia, into a dream. This makes moot all studies that try to pin down when sleep paralysis does and not happen. You can make it happen. If you focus on your body during a WILD, you will be aware of the changes in your body. If you move your focus away from your body during WILD, you can avoid being aware of these changes.

Maybe you should sum up your write-up by saying people can chose to use SP as a tool during WILD if they find it helpful, or can chose to avoid it if they find it unpleasant.

I guess the real question is if, while WILDing, you lucid dream during REM sleep or not. It seems easier to say no, that you are experiencing a WILD during an NREM dream. But if you do enter REM atonia because you are in REM sleep, and because you are still conscious, you are in REM atonia versus SP. Is that what people mean when they say they achieved sleep paralysis? Or did paralysis kick in out of REM, and it really was sleep paralysis?
I dunno didn't LaBerge research this? Everyone is always debating the ease with which you can dream during NREM stages. Blah blah blah I don't know what I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

Just to reiterate, since thor seems to keep ignoring the fact that:

1) You can experience sleep paralysis outside of REM sleep

It is implied by the very definition of sleep paralysis that it occurs outside of REM sleep (ref. note 3), so I can't see how I can be ignoring it.

2) You can remain conscious during REM sleep

Obviously. What makes you think I'm ignoring it.

3) You can actively seek sleep paralysis.

This depends a lot on how you define "seek" and "sleep paralysis". If you define sleep paralysis as REM atonia, there is no point in seeking it because you'll get it unless there is something seriously wrong with you. If you define sleep paralysis as the disorder where REM atonia is activated when you are awake, there is no evidence to suggest that seeking it can affect the chances of actually getting it. The incidence of people that frequently experience sleep paralysis is rather low. For lucid dreamers that incidence is likely to be only marginally higher (since some people discover lucid dreaming because of sleep paralysis). Obviously these people will be just as likely to experience sleep paralysis in a WILD attempt as when going to sleep normally. The unsupported claim is that the majority of people who do not suffer from sleep paralysis would somehow be able to induce it just because they are trying to WILD.

What, exactly do you think WILD is, thor? It is maintaining consciousness through all hypnagogia, into a dream.

Exactly. And if you have a normal physiology your sensory input is suppressed concomitantly with REM atonia, so there is no experience of paralysis. Your kinesthetic sense is switched from your real body to your dream body.

You can make it happen.

No, if you don't ususally get sleep paralysis when going to sleep, you won't get it just by WILDing. At least I haven't seen any evidence that could support this. And besides you don't need it.

Maybe you should sum up your write-up by saying people can chose to use SP as a tool during WILD if they find it helpful, or can chose to avoid it if they find it unpleasant.

Well, I actually did say that if you get sleep paralysis you can use it as a tool to initiate WILDs from.

So my position on this subject can be summed up as follows:

1. Sleep paralysis is neither necessary nor sufficient for WILDing.
2. The chances of getting sleep paralysis are determined by your natural predisposition to get it.
3. The chances of getting sleep paralysis are not affected by WILDing.

But I'd be willing to be convinced otherwise if someone could come up with credible evidence to support it.

Oh you'd be willing to consider it would you
Big of you.

No one is arguing with you on point 1.
Points 2 and 3 are your opinion basically.

The whole point of using SP to LD is by deliberately inducing it. You suggest this is unsupported - although you have decided that tons on anecdotal evidence, common experiences, as well as Laberges guidance itself, doesn't count.

At the moment your argument is simply that you don't believe it. Which, when you get down to it, is no argument at all.

BTW The trick to inducing SP is not to "seek" it. This is common in all of the tutorials.

Originally Posted by Thor

So my position on this subject can be summed up as follows:

1. Sleep paralysis is neither necessary nor sufficient for WILDing.
2. The chances of getting sleep paralysis are determined by your natural predisposition to get it.
3. The chances of getting sleep paralysis are not affected by WILDing.

1. Sleep paralysis can be a helpful tool when learning to WILD.
2. The chances of experiencing sleep paralysis are influenced by your sleeping behavior, which can be altered at will.
3. You can learn to achieve sleep paralysis at will through any of the techniques frequently discussed on this forum and others like it.

I don't know why you are even arguing these points. They are well accepted and easily experienced first hand. There is no need to hypothesize or theorize about something that is so easily experienced. You are really just pulling this bizarre disbelief straight out of your ass.