Visualization

[ZotC]

I have no visualization ability. Not a very weak ability, not a fleeting ability. None. My hypnagogic visuals are extraordinarily vivd and detailed, as are my dreams; but I have no ability to close my eyes while in a waking state of consciousness and visualize ANYTHING: not myself on a mountain top, not the face of friends I haven't seen in years (or even hours), not my long lost cat (), not even a shape or color or light against the black of my eyelids. How does someone who's so visually-impaired (I have 20/10 vision with my eyes open, but nothing but a void with eyes closed!) go about developing the ability to visualize? I'm sure it must be possible, but I don't know how to begin. I know that it comes naturally to many people, and I'd like to hear from you, but mainly I would like to hear from people who were in my position and how they learned to visualize.

[Brandon Heat]

I have no visualization ability. Not a very weak ability, not a fleeting ability. None. My hypnagogic visuals are extraordinarily vivd and detailed, as are my dreams; but I have no ability to close my eyes while in a waking state of consciousness and visualize ANYTHING: not myself on a mountain top, not the face of friends I haven't seen in years (or even hours), not my long lost cat (), not even a shape or color or light against the black of my eyelids. How does someone who's so visually-impaired (I have 20/10 vision with my eyes open, but nothing but a void with eyes closed!) go about developing the ability to visualize? I'm sure it must be possible, but I don't know how to begin. I know that it comes naturally to many people, and I'd like to hear from you, but mainly I would like to hear from people who were in my position and how they learned to visualize. You do know that not everyone is able to produce hypnagogic imagery right? And even still there are those who seriously lack any ability to produce an image with their eyes closed. If you are in this boat I would suggest using other methods to induce your lucid dreams that do not require hypnagogic imagery. Sadly this is just the luck of the draw.

[ZotC]

Well my HH are INTENSE! No problem hynagogically... but simply closing my eyes to visualize something on the back of eyelids seems impossible. It's not so much for dreaming purposes that I want to learn this (though it'd certainly help) but for meditation purposes.

[Brandon Heat]

Ah I see what you are saying now you experience hypnagioic imagery you just can't create anything visually on the back of your eyelids like a mountain scenery or something of the sorts. Well I can only speak for myself when I say this, but when I see myself on a mountain top it does not necessarily mean that you will see it on the back of your eyelids it's more of like you can see it in your mind not necessarily, but you can imagine it if you catch my drift. Once again I can only speak from my personal experience. But if this proves to be the case from other people it may be that what you are asking is impossible without the use of some form of legal or illegal substances if you catch my drift.

[ZotC]

Yep, now you got it. I hear what you're saying. I can easily imagine things, as you say, easily. I was always under the impression, however, that when people said they visualize things, it's more of a visual-thang than an imaginary-thang. Maybe I'm mistaken, though, but I was expecting "visualization" to mean the kind of things you see against the void after eating a couple of those special sugar cubes...

[Brandon Heat]

No, the causes of such things are the effects that said things have your brains such as S4 receptors and the likes. Whilst sober such things cannot occur. >_> Maybe some meditators would say it's possible, but I would know nothing about that seeing as how I do not medtate.

[ZotC]

Thanks, Benny... you've certainly eased my mind... I thought I was lacking something here, but it turns out I was just having unreal expectations.

[magical mike]

When ever you WILD you HH right?

[ZotC]

HH is the transition phase, so yes. You go from awake, to the hypnagogic state, into a full-blown LD, so HH seems to be an essential part of WILD. I mean, I suppose that if you were really REALLY good at falling asleep, and you did a WBTB, you could fall right into a dream and bypass the HH, but I personally have a tough time getting to sleep, even if I'm drowsy, so HH is always the intermediary stage between waking life and dreams when it comes to WILD.

[Captain Sleepalot]

I was always under the impression, however, that when people said they visualize things, it's more of a visual-thang than an imaginary-thang. The term does confuse people and set unrealistic expectations, as basically what most people are referring to when they say "visualize" is "imagine". Some people do have the ability to see actual images; when I was a child I was able to actually see images pretty clearly and easily, but as I went through school that ability atrophied. I still think that if anyone practices consistently enough, they can get themselves to a skill level that is a lot closer to actual "visualization" rather than vague imagination.

[ZotC]

Then practice I must! I've no desire to fry my brain with any more acid and DMT for visuals that last 12 hours or 12 seconds. I'd like to be able to go at it au natural. Any recommendations for specific techniques?

[Shift]

Can you practice with real objects? For example, get two identical glasses, of milk and water or anything that has two liquids with different appearances. Put one in a spot in front of you. Just stare at it, try to take in all the details, then close your eyes and remember where everything was? If you have trouble, open your eyes for a split second and try to do it again. Then, swap out the glasses, do it again with the other liquid. Then, imagine it again with the original liquid, and just keep messing around? I do this when I'm bored... Imagine things moving around

[Captain Sleepalot]

Shift has the right idea; I do the same thing, just looking around the room when I am bored, taking in the details then closing my eyes to try to "see" as much as I can remember. I will also try to imagine the object floating in front of me with eyes open, or in some other part of the room. I'm not sure how helpful that is in developing closed eye visuals, but I read it as a visualization exercise in some obscure occult manual. I also just go through a series of faces of people I know or have seen, including friends, family members, celebrities, etc. I just kind of verbally name them and when I "see" their face pop up in my imagination, I focus on details, try to make the image bigger, etc., then move on to a new face after a minute or so.

[Brandon Heat]

Can you practice with real objects? For example, get two identical glasses, of milk and water or anything that has two liquids with different appearances. Put one in a spot in front of you. Just stare at it, try to take in all the details, then close your eyes and remember where everything was? If you have trouble, open your eyes for a split second and try to do it again. Then, swap out the glasses, do it again with the other liquid. Then, imagine it again with the original liquid, and just keep messing around? I do this when I'm bored... Imagine things moving around Yes, but when you are visualizing the objects on the back of your eyelids it's not really a full blown vision per say it's more of the outline of shapes on your eyelids sort of thing. They are not going to be vivid. I am correct in saying this right?

[Shift]

Yes, but when you are visualizing the objects on the back of your eyelids it's not really a full blown vision per say it's more of the outline of shapes on your eyelids sort of thing. They are not going to be vivid. I am correct in saying this right? Clearly, that's why I am saying that the OP should practice by first looking at very simple, very basic ordinary objects and learning to visualize them by retaining the image even without visual input, but by working with memory, and then to build that ability up until he is able to visualize anything he wants. Obviously these baby steps aren't a full blown vision, because he's stated that he has no visualization ability. You don't tell someone to learn physics by building a nuclear bomb. I wouldn't tell someone who can't visualize at all to just sit down and have hallucinations. I've suggested some very very basic steps that may help him out if he practices them.

[Brandon Heat]

Clearly, that's why I am saying that the OP should practice by first looking at very simple, very basic ordinary objects and learning to visualize them by retaining the image even without visual input, but by working with memory, and then to build that ability up until he is able to visualize anything he wants. Obviously these baby steps aren't a full blown vision, because he's stated that he has no visualization ability. You don't tell someone to learn physics by building a nuclear bomb. I wouldn't tell someone who can't visualize at all to just sit down and have hallucinations. I've suggested some very very basic steps that may help him out if he practices them. Yes I know this I was just making sure I was understanding what you were saying correctly that is all. However Kudos shift you have made some helpful posts around the forums.

[ZotC]

Very helpful indeed! I have noticed immediate improvement in my visualization... maybe I was just going about it all wrong! I'll be practicing again today using this method, and I'll keep this thread update if I have any significant breakthroughs. Thanks!

[Shift]

Thanks to both of you, I'm glad to hear all my thinking actually does help... usually I give advice, people say "Oh I'll try that, thanks!" and I never hear if they got results And Benny... I just realized how snooty my response sounds!! Sorry! I didn't mean it to sound like that, but I am soooooooo not my best at the asscrack of dawn