How to be reasonably certain you are having an OBE rather than a lucid dream?

Other than a few coincidences and an overall pervading feeling of the nature of reality during the time that an OBE is experienced, how can you tell, during that experience, that you are not simply dreaming? It has often been my experience that what you experience can be profoundly convincing, but in reality be an illusion. In the past I went overboard and experimented with all kinds of hallucinogenic drugs. Dissociatives, psychedelics, deliriants, and even all different combinations of those groups. I came to realize just how much you can be fooled into becoming deluded. If I had simply tried one group of the drugs, I would find myself believing what I see enthusiasts of those specific drug types believe about reality, but when comparing the experiences of the combinations and individual experiences of these drugs, it became very easy to view things more objectively. I found myself believing similar things about the nature of reality when I was going through various phases of trying more of certain types of these drugs.

To name a few of what I have tried in the past, here is a list: DXM, 3-MeO-PCP, 4-MeO-PCP, MXE, MDMA, 5-APB, Psilocybin mushrooms, LSD, Escaline, Dipropyltryptamine (DPT), Diphenhydramine, Chlorpheniramine, and Doxylamine.

As I said, comparing all the (many many) individual experiences at all ranges of doses (from microdoses to megadoses) and combinations, I was able to see where the realizations I had profoundly come to understand, the "enlightenment" I thought I was receiving, etc. was mostly if not all completely in my head and reflecting various amounts of psychosis mixed with very delusional beliefs and even delirious mindstates. I knew better to trust what was happening or what I was feeling (such as being God, being everybody, being the entity fabricating reality, life going in endless cycles, being connected with God and even communicating through feelings concepts and thoughts, and contact with various entities) or experiencing because these altered/distorted perceptions of reality were the result of normal functioning of the brain being altered to the point that interpreting what we know as objective reality begins to completely crumble as various electrical signaling is either stopping nearly completely, running out of control, and changing the nature of how we interpret reality, but not reality itself.

As a result, I began to understand through experience how the brain appeared to function in many ways. The way we see and predict movement, how we view the shading and lighting of objects, and even the proportion, depth, and size of the objects we are viewing. Dissociatives are known to cause what are known as Lilliputian Hallucinations. Having experienced these (many times now) has been one of the most revealing things about how the brain works. Each object I saw was simultaneously changing it's height, width, and length all the time. If I were to look at my hand, I would have a stick thin arm with a huge beefy fat palm, and then my arm would be massive and really wide, and my palm would be absolutely tiny and my fingers like long alien fingers. They would constantly be changing. Any object I was looking at, including roads, people, TVs, computer monitors, phones, literally anything would be doing this independent of each other. Distances of miles looked like inches away, and a few inches could span the length of three American football fields. A room could look like a massive dome structure or an infinitesimally cramped space. Navigating through the world was highly disorienting. Objects could even look tiny but be understood as being massive, and vice versa. To think that under the right conditions, you can't even begin to tell the size of an object, how far away things are, what things even look like in some cases, based on a change in neurotransmission was mind boggling.

So, given the mind can be so convincing with these delusions (even false memories, ever had those in a dream before? I've experienced them in dreams and on deliriants) and hallucinations, how can one be reasonably certain that what they are experiencing during an OBE--without the aid of outside sources at your disposal, with nothing other than what your brain is telling you is going on--that you are not simply dreaming or hallucinating instead? How can you be certain of it after the experience, either, without rigorous and controlled conditions designed to prove the experience's validity?

There are many seeming differences between the two types of experiences, some more apparent than others. The differing methods and processes of shifting into these altered states (for example, shifting from a fully awakened state with strong sensations of energy and separating from the body are associated with OBEs, whereas becoming conscious during a dream or entering a dream reality from the waking state lacking the sensations associated with OBEs are associated with lucid dreams) usually lead to differing characteristics of one's consciousness and the mechanics of the experience that correspond to the method and process of entering the altered state time and time again. The fact that there are differences that correspond with each method is not so much debatable as is what these differences actually mean.

One test that is common to tell the difference is to attempt to change one's environment. This is usually done with ease during lucid dreams, whereas it can be nearly impossible during some OBEs, particularly those in lower dimensions (those immediately above the physical plane). Higher planes seem to be more responsive to thought than the lower ones. It is actually theorized that lucid dreams take place in the astral, a high level of the astral that is completely molded by subconscious and conscious thought. Who is to say that this isn't the case?

Even higher level of astral and also mental dimension are very hard to change. Yes, if you are not disciplined enough, your subconscious mind can slip a bits of imagination into your OBE. Generally, lucid dream is just dream with added lucidity. Your consciousness, your senses... everything is from less clear to as normal as in real life. But when you do OBE... The higher dimension(or level of particular dimension) you experience the stronger consciousness seems to be. When I was in budhic dimension, then everything seemed to be uncontrollable. I wasn't even able to move in my surrounding at the start. It was so very different in comparison to mental dimension which is again more difficult than astral one.
I'm not sure about drug induced experiences... In my opinion they have not the quality of common OBE. You do something to your consciousness but your consciousness is not ready for going out.

IMO, OBE believers are fooled by their brain and are just experiencing a very very convincing dream, something between the FA (where we are convinced to be awoken in our real bedroom) and the LD (where we have a great potential to think, observe, being aware).
I experienced OBE/AS as well as LDs, and it reminds me when I experienced Salvia Divinorium.

In both experiences (OBE/AS and Salvia trip) I was convinced, during the experience, that what I was living was deeply real, authentic, more authentic that reality, while I was just fooled by my brain (I understood that when I came back).

Imagine living such OBEs hundreds if not thousands of times ... you'll never be able to come back from this strong belief that you are really leaving your body or really traveling in a parallel non physical dimension called Astral plan. Only few OBEs/AP are enough to be certain that you are living an authentic paranormal experiences if you enter in this belief.
It's even more real if you were believing that before living your first OBE/AP (by reading books about it).

Thing is that even our perception of reality is 100% produced by our brain from the electric stimulus arriving in the brain from our sensitive organs, so we are fooled by our brain all the time, thinking that when we see something or touch something, the sensation comes from the outside whereas it is built and felt by and in our brain. (even if the real world exists outside of our body).

Believers will have a high skill in finding arguments that seam to show that OBE/AP are real, but it is only because they want to believe it so hard that they can't do anything but being 110% sure that this is real.
You'll notice that all their evidences will be subjective or coming from a man who knows a man who is able to move something in the real world, and so on.

One argument that Wagonner uses in his book Gateway to the Inner Self. Which is about Lucid Dreaming by the the way and it's potential for exploring mystical states and learning about the 'inner self'. He postulates the idea that the Creative power of the unconscious self in dreams seems to surpass the capacity that the Human Subconscious can logically have. I.e. Lucid Dreams can produce worlds and states of mind such as ego-death. That have zero relationship with the content of memory/experience that a human mind has in waking life. Thus, what mechanism but a higher mind of sorts is capable of producing such mystical experiences.

-I personally am reasonably convinced of a reality in OBEs due to various coincidences. And a trust in other people's reports. One guy reports meditating on low dose of LSD and feeling his consciousness expand out into the street like a bubble. He noticed an absurd scene of a horse walking through the street, like it was the middle ages. Then later he went to that exact spot outside and noticed horse poo. ??

Then in my own experience there have been several occasions where I felt my own consciousness expand like a bubble. This hands me a clue that this is something that we can all do. Hence this is a coincidence. Then able to sense smells/textures of clothings and environments that are not in the proximity of my nose or my tongue. Hence, my brain seems to be able to atleast construe a valid picture of something not in range of my 5 sense organs.

I have had a period in which I was quite sensitive to ESP. Two experiences stand out for me, one of seeing my friend walk to my appartment and having him knock on the door 2 seconds later. Another one was getting a text message from my dad while lying in bed , in trance, and him calling me a second later.

I liken Entity Contact experiences such as those of Machine-Elves, Jesters, snakes etc. as interesting ways to unveil truths about the nature of the universe. One such thing are Jesters explaining in a shamanic experience of a book that I am reading that they say our universe is created by them as mere Toys. Then someone else with no connection to this experience says that An entity in the DMt-trance , known as our "mother' has created our reality as a toy so that we do not get bored. Terence Mckenna goes out to explain that Machine-elves are teaching him to sing Uneffable objects/toys of universal proportions with the use of Intent out of his voice. Do you see the insane coincidence?

There's a lot more where this came from. While not ur typical OBE experiences. There are instances where my friend was able to see my bones through my skin during a mushroom trip. And in another instance I have seen a person through my wall during a mushroom experience. Who wasn't supposed to be there. Where later someone verified for me that this person actually was there in the exact spot that I have seen him. In a sober instance I traveled with my mind to the room of my friend and saw her lying in bed. It looked very real. I did not get to verify this experience but since i have been right in the past, this at least opens up the ability that I actually saw her where she was at that moment.

Kaan you are quite right. I know what I'm experiencing, I feel differences between the experiences, but there is always possibility we are fooled by our brain. I keep that in my mind, and till I have good proof that I really move out of body... to that time I never can be sure.

Be little more cautious to tell that something is 100% sure, even 110% :D When you give such numbers it is often sure that you are wrong... at least partially.

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Originally Posted by Kaan

IMO, OBE believers are fooled by their brain and are just experiencing a very very convincing dream, something between the FA (where we are convinced to be awoken in our real bedroom) and the LD (where we have a great potential to think, observe, being aware).
I experienced OBE/AS as well as LDs, and it reminds me when I experienced Salvia Divinorium.

In both experiences (OBE/AS and Salvia trip) I was convinced, during the experience, that what I was living was deeply real, authentic, more authentic that reality, while I was just fooled by my brain (I understood that when I came back).

Imagine living such OBEs hundreds if not thousands of times ... you'll never be able to come back from this strong belief that you are really leaving your body or really traveling in a parallel non physical dimension called Astral plan. Only few OBEs/AP are enough to be certain that you are living an authentic paranormal experiences if you enter in this belief.
It's even more real if you were believing that before living your first OBE/AP (by reading books about it).

Thing is that even our perception of reality is 100% produced by our brain from the electric stimulus arriving in the brain from our sensitive organs, so we are fooled by our brain all the time, thinking that when we see something or touch something, the sensation comes from the outside whereas it is built and felt by and in our brain. (even if the real world exists outside of our body).

Believers will have a high skill in finding arguments that seam to show that OBE/AP are real, but it is only because they want to believe it so hard that they can't do anything but being 110% sure that this is real.
You'll notice that all their evidences will be subjective or coming from a man who knows a man who is able to move something in the real world, and so on.

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It sounds to me like you are the one being fooled! Why? Because you are completely ruling out the possibility of these experiences being genuine without sufficient evidence to do so. The truely intellectually honest approach would be to accept the possibility that they are genuine, as there is absolutely no proof that they are not, and there is enough subjective corroborative evidence to suggest that OBEs are different in some way than LDs, therefore placing an acceptible level of doubt on the notion that OBEs and LDs are the same exact phenomenon. You are essentially guilty of the very same wishful thinking as those you are speaking out against.

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Originally Posted by VinceField

It sounds to me like you are the one being fooled! Why? Because you are completely ruling out the possibility of these experiences being genuine without sufficient evidence to do so. The truely intellectually honest approach would be to accept the possibility that they are genuine, as there is absolutely no proof that they are not, and there is enough subjective corroborative evidence to suggest that OBEs are different in some way than LDs, therefore placing an acceptible level of doubt on the notion that OBEs and LDs are the same exact phenomenon. You are essentially guilty of the very same wishful thinking as those you are speaking out against.

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The question pointed out in this thread is "How to be reasonably certain you are having an OBE rather than a lucid dream?" , not "is there a chance that it could be possible".

my answer to the second question would be yes, maybe.
My answer the the question of this thread is that I don't think the subjective certitudes are something you can trust with any doubt as the brain is absolutely able to produce these dreamlike experiences called OBE or LD, as well as it can also produce a scary and real like Sleep Paralysis scenarios.
It's really not an issue for the brain to make you live a fucking real like experience and making you persuaded that what you are living is the real shit.

yes, you can say that " there is absolutely no proof that they are not (legit)", as you can say that there is absolutely no proof that there is not an enormous alien spaceship behind the hidden side of the sun, but this kind of argument has no real value.
That's the kind of tricky argument you can use when you want to defend a belief, presenting it as a fact but without the beginning of a proof that it is a fact.
So you attack the opposed position telling them that they can not prove that the magical thing you believe in is not legit.

OBE and LD have a lot more in common that what you suggest.
One of the differences you pointed out is the impossibility of changing environment.
I had OBEs where I could change the environment, and I had a LD where I couldn't change anything.
So this is not big difference between both.

When You try a WILD, sometimes it starts like a classical LD, but if you are too focused on your body sensations for example(real body or dream body), you have chances to live an OBE, but a part from the scenario, the context, the expectation, I don't see a serious reason to be certain that OBE are something else than a Dream scenario, except this tricky certitude you have when you live it, which could be an hallucinated feeling.

What I wanted to add is that some people think that if they can bring back some checkable objective data from their OBE, then this is the evidence that OBE is a real out of body travel of the self.
But if you accept the existence of ESP, like telepathy, remote viewing (let's be opened mind) then you can not pretend anymore that the OBE must be real if such data are reported, cause you still can see the OBE as a special dream where checkable Data from the real world are projected in the dream scenario.

So, to be certain that OBE/AP are something else than some special kind of dream/LD, you can think it, you can be persuaded of it, but for me this is far from being an objective fact.

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Originally Posted by Kaan

The question pointed out in this thread is "How to be reasonably certain you are having an OBE rather than a lucid dream?" , not "is there a chance that it could be possible".

my answer to the second question would be yes, maybe.

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In your original response you seemed quite certain that OBEs are nothing but convincing dreams.

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My answer the the question of this thread is that I don't think the subjective certitudes are something you can trust with any doubt as the brain is absolutely able to produce these dreamlike experiences called OBE or LD, as well as it can also produce a scary and real like Sleep Paralysis scenarios.
It's really not an issue for the brain to make you live a fucking real like experience and making you persuaded that what you are living is the real shit.

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Haha such strong language! I agree for the most part. The differences between the experiences are not something to be ignored, however, and suggest that perhaps they shouldn't be so easily lumped into the same category of experience.

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yes, you can say that " there is absolutely no proof that they are not (legit)", as you can say that there is absolutely no proof that there is not an enormous alien spaceship behind the hidden side of the sun, but this kind of argument has no real value.

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It has value to those who value having an open mind, although it is equally important to evaluate the likelihood of any given possibility. The possibility we are speaking of here may be more likely than the one you compared it to based on the experiences of many.

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OBE and LD have a lot more in common that what you suggest.
One of the differences you pointed out is the impossibility of changing environment.
I had OBEs where I could change the environment, and I had a LD where I couldn't change anything.
So this is not big difference between both.

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They do have a lot in common, more in common than not. I simply stated that there are differences that may hold some significance. I didn't say it was impossible to change the environment during an OBE. I said it can be nearly impossible to change the environment during some OBEs. Not all of these experiences are cut from the same cloth, there is a seemingly wide array of dimensions with their own unique characteristics which affect one's consciousness and one's abilities during the experience.

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When You try a WILD, sometimes it starts like a classical LD, but if you are too focused on your body sensations for example(real body or dream body), you have chances to live an OBE, but a part from the scenario, the context, the expectation, I don't see a serious reason to be certain that OBE are something else than a Dream scenario, except this tricky certitude you have when you live it, which could be an hallucinated feeling.

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Yes, perhaps claiming to have 100% epistemic certainty is a bit foolish when dealing with this realm of experience. Psychological certainty is another story.

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So, to be certain that OBE/AP are something else than some special kind of dream/LD, you can think it, you can be persuaded of it, but for me this is far to be an objective fact.

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For me as well.

Take care :)

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Originally Posted by VinceField

They do have a lot in common, more in common than not. I simply stated that there are differences that may hold some significance. I didn't say it was impossible to change the environment during an OBE. I said it can be nearly impossible to change the environment during some OBEs.

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Really? Wouldn't changing the environment during an OBE literally change the physical environment? That seems fairly impressive, and to me would be impossible without the presence of some (currently) supernatural ability or energy. After all, an OBE'er would somehow be using his nonphysical form to influence physical reality... from where is he drawing the energy to change the environment? Also, I've never heard of this being done (and have certainly tried, myself, many times); wouldn't reports of changing the environment through OBE's have emerged by now?

I think that, given what we currently know, it probably is impossible to change the environment during an OBE. You could probably feel comfortable sticking to your guns on your original comparison here Vince, as it seems valid.

And Snoop: I can't help thinking that if you switched "OBE" with "LD" throughout this thread, the same questions would be raised. When we are basing the existence of an entire genre of personal experience on nothing more than how we remember it, and memory can be remarkably unreliable, I think we are on some pretty soft ground for proving it as real at all, even to ourselves, much less differentiating an OBE from a LD. [I feel like I just said all this on another thread...] I think an OBE'er (or dreamer, for that matter) would need to first master their own memory before even thinking about differentiating an LD from an OBE.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Really? Wouldn't changing the environment during an OBE literally change the physical environment? That seems fairly impressive, and to me would be impossible without the presence of some (currently) supernatural ability or energy. After all, an OBE'er would somehow be using his nonphysical form to influence physical reality... from where is he drawing the energy to change the environment? Also, I've never heard of this being done (and have certainly tried, myself, many times); wouldn't reports of changing the environment through OBE's have emerged by now?

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You are assuming here that the environment experienced during an OBE is the physical environment. Even when the environment closely resembles the physical world, it is probably not the case that the projector is actually operating within the physical dimension. It is actually a rather common experience for the OBE environment (one appearing as a nearly exact replica of the physical world) to change seemingly on its own accord. Considering the plethora of dimensions possible to experience beyond the physical world during an OBE (call it astral projection if you may, I am using these words synonymously), I think it's safe to say that alterations of these nonphysical environments have absolutely nothing to do with the physical dimension.

^^ You are correct. I naively assumed that an OBE would mean that you have exited your physical body and moved your essence into your waking-life's physical environment... hence the whole "OBE" thing. I had also assumed that travel to other dimensions beyond the physical world was the role of AP, so clearly I've been out of the loop of the developing OBE/AP lexicon...hmm; this does sort of explain why I've always considered OBE'ing a potentially dull exercise (i.e., why would I want to make the effort to leave my body just to powerlessly float around my own home or neighborhood?).

Still, wouldn't the same issues exist for making changes in other dimensions, regardless of how nonphysical they may be? After all, they are still places separate from your own mind/dreamscape, so there would still need to be some unusual force necessary to make changes -- arguably even more unusual than your original physical dimension, given their possibly extreme alien nature.

So, Vince, I stand by what I said earlier: in my opinion, based on both my apparently antiquated view of OBE and my equal reluctance to believe we innately have the power to change the environments of new dimensions well beyond the range of our dreaming minds, you were still correct in the first place! ;)

But none of this has anything to do with knowing you are definitely OBE'ing, does it?

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ You are correct. I naively assume that an OBE would mean that you have exited your physical body and moved your essence into your waking-life's physical environment... hence the whole "OBE" thing. I had also assumed that travel to other dimensions beyond the physical world was the role of AP, so clearly I've been out of the loop of the developing OBE/AP lexicon...hmm; this does sort of explain why I've always considered OBE'ing a potentially dull exercise (i.e., why would I want to make the effort to leave my body just to powerlessly float around my own home or neighborhood?).

Still, wouldn't the same issues exist for making changes in other dimensions, regardless of how nonphysical they may be? After all, they are still places separate from your own mind/dreamscape, so there would still need to be some unusual force necessary to make changes -- arguably even more unusual than your original physical dimension, given their possibly extreme alien nature.

So, Vince, I stand by what I said earlier: in my opinion, based on both my apparently antiquated view of OBE and my equal reluctance to believe we innately have the power to change the environments of new dimensions well beyond the range of our dreaming minds, you were still correct in the first place! ;)

But none of this has anything to do with knowing you are definitely OBE'ing, does it?

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Regarding unusual force needed to change nonphysical dimensions, apparently certain dimensions respond to conscious and subconscious thought and energy as an almost natural function of the substance that makes up the environment. I wouldn't assume that nonphysical reality takes on the same characteristics as the physical plane, especially given the extremely limited nature of our physical world compared to the inner/nonphysical realms experienced during LDs and OBEs. It has also been found that certain dimensions eventually revert back to their original state when consciously altered, the changes only lasting temporarily. The way I understand the nature of nonphysical reality, it is essentially a multidimensional universe constructed by the energy of the mind (actually a co-creation of every individual mind in existence, or in other words, The One Mind or Source as a whole), so it wouldn't be too far-fetched to assume that this mind-created universe can be changed with the same material that helped to build it.

But yes, none of this actually addresses the OP directly, it is merely a side note addressing concepts that arose along the way.

Kilindi Iyi speaks of going to similar places with his partners across the globe during mushroom travels. He speaks of leaving a marker in the non-physical dimension. (a crude example is something like a Flag) . This is an alteration of the dimension and quite good evidence that this is not just in the mind.

There's an entity described by someone on the internet. I noticed an entity that looked exactly as described. We had a chat and we discussed this other person briefly. I could devise a strategy in which I ask an entity to reveal information to someone else and see if that can bring evidence of a mutual contact. I also seem to be able to find another person's energy. This is subjective and requires total honesty to find real confirmation.

Okay, I'll go around one more time, but just with a couple of quick thoughts:

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Originally Posted by VinceField

Regarding unusual force needed to change nonphysical dimensions, apparently certain dimensions respond to conscious and subconscious thought and energy as an almost natural function of the substance that makes up the environment.

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Really? You worded that with some authority; other than your own experience, is there any evidence, anywhere, of these certain dimensions and their characteristics? If so, please share; I would love to check them out.

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I wouldn't assume that nonphysical reality takes on the same characteristics as the physical plane, especially given the extremely limited nature of our physical world compared to the inner/nonphysical realms experienced during LDs and OBEs.

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I didn't assume that. On the contrary, I assumed the opposite. When I said that I was figuring that other dimensions might take on characteristics that are so far removed from anything in our universe that everything would be completely alien to us, including the ability for our mind or its energies to function there... it seems much less likely to me that other dimensions would cooperate with us at all, so my assumption was actually the opposite of what you assumed; sorry for the confusion.

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It has also been found that certain dimensions eventually revert back to their original state when consciously altered, the changes only lasting temporarily.

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It has? Again, by whom?

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The way I understand the nature of nonphysical reality, it is essentially a multidimensional universe constructed by the energy of the mind (actually a co-creation of every individual mind in existence, or in other words, The One Mind or Source as a whole), so it wouldn't be too far-fetched to assume that this mind-created universe can be changed with the same material that helped to build it.

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That's the way you understand it, which is fine. But we don't all understand it that way, nor should we, given what any of us actually know. It also wouldn't be too far-fetched to assume that the universe was constructed of its own accord over the course of billions of years, with no help of the energy of some sort of consciousness groupmind. There really are other ways of seeing these things, and I think seeing the universe as a product of itself that exists with or without the presence of Mind is just as valid, if not a bit more sensible (especially considering that, as far as we know, the universe existed long before any minds did).

[Full disclosure: I did actually write a book some time ago that (playfully) implies the opposite of what I just said, so I may be more open to your viewpoint than you might think; I just felt another viewpoint was necessary, especially on this thread.]

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But yes, none of this actually addresses the OP directly, it is merely a side note addressing concepts that arose along the way.

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Actually, now I think it might just address the OP directly, because you are speaking of these other dimensions as though they are real places (which you may fully believe and that, again, is just fine), and the only evidence you have to support that, and that you have been there, is your memory of your OBE travels.

I am not of course saying they were, but what if those memories are indeed memories of particularly unusual dreams? Again, I'm not arguing, and have no interest in reading about all your experience; I'm just pointing out that everything we have for proof of our own experiences is the memory of those experiences -- no pictures, no recordings, no returned objects, no physical objects changed or moved during OBE's (and yes, I do admire the convenience of OBE's happening in other dimensions, so they cannot be easily tested by simply identifying or moving stuff in your own waking-life house), no corroborating witnesses*, not even written notes -- and memory can be a very fallible tool, especially in the realm of dreams.

Snoop poses an excellent question in his OP, and its answer I think lies in memory; so I guess I was more on-topic than I originally thought.


* Speaking of corroborating witnesses:

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Originally Posted by Dthoughts

Kilindi Iyi speaks of going to similar places with his partners across the globe during mushroom travels. He speaks of leaving a marker in the non-physical dimension. (a crude example is something like a Flag) . This is an alteration of the dimension and quite good evidence that this is not just in the mind.

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Does it count as evidence if a person and his friends simply say it is? I'm not sure. Those trippers may all believe their markers were placed in other dimensions, but they are still basing the existence of those flags on their memories, and nothing else. Yes, their memories may be similar, but there could be other more mundane reasons for that similarity.

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I have met an entity described by someone on the internet. We discussed this other person briefly. I could devise a strategy in which I ask an entity to reveal information to someone else and see if that can bring evidence of a mutual contact.

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That would be a fine strategy to devise, I think, and would certainly help you define where you've been at least for yourself; though it seems it would prove dream-sharing rather than OBE's. Regardless, good luck with it!



Again, just sayin,' and not picking a fight.

:cheers:

Sageous

Look into the work of Jurgen Ziewe and Robert Bruce to find reports that corroborate the ideas I've shared that you've questioned. Ziewe's website multidimensionalman.com is full of quality information.

The times that I speak of dimensions and such things like they are real is simply for convenience. I am fully aware that it all may be an illusion and/or delusion.

Kaan
It could be:
Dream is when you are in astral(OBE) but you don't know it, you are surrounded and blinded in the theatre of your imagination
Lucid dream starts, when you know that you are in that theatre...
OBE is when you start to see beyond imagination...

But this would be possible if our brains are only the antennas of our soul. One can get entangled into philosophic aspects of possibilities...

Wow, I'm glad this thread has gotten so much discussion so far, nice.

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Originally Posted by VinceField

You are assuming here that the environment experienced during an OBE is the physical environment. Even when the environment closely resembles the physical world, it is probably not the case that the projector is actually operating within the physical dimension. It is actually a rather common experience for the OBE environment (one appearing as a nearly exact replica of the physical world) to change seemingly on its own accord. Considering the plethora of dimensions possible to experience beyond the physical world during an OBE (call it astral projection if you may, I am using these words synonymously), I think it's safe to say that alterations of these nonphysical environments have absolutely nothing to do with the physical dimension.

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I definitely have to say, in this case, that you are arguing something entirely different here. I never even considered the fact that an OBE could take place in a dimension separate from the physical plane. That being said, it makes little sense to me for this experience to be called an OBE. I have to ask a question at this point. During OBEs, do you still have some kind of "astral body" or are you merely an observer? If the former, how is this any different from a dream, if it doesn't take place in our physical "dimension"? If the latter, is the absence of a body the sole criterion for an experience to be labeled as one such as out-of-body? If that's the case, I've had plenty of dreams that were OBEs. If that doesn't quite meet the criteria for an OBE, then what additional conditions must be met?

The thing that just left me the most confused was why you would call an experience that doesn't take place in our physical dimension an OBE. An overwhelming majority of OBErs claim that OBE is real, and the only proof they can provide is to observe something that they could never observe given they are lying down in another room. If they go somewhere else, you move into completely unfalsifiable territory, like shared dreaming. We cannot, with our current technology and understanding of the reality we inhabit, possibly hope to prove or disprove a totally subjective experience. There really isn't too much reason trying to argue what something is and isn't at that point.

The thread was created initially to typify that point, but it was also to get those who believe they are indeed having OBEs explaining how they are so certain it is actually and why they believe that to be true. Given the fact you only have your own senses to rely on in such an experience, with no third party to verify what you think you know, then how can you know? And I don't mean to say it is impossible to have an OBE with this statement, it shouldn't be taken that way. It is simply a question of how it is you can actually know what is going on without any technology or tools backing up what you are experiencing. The obvious answer should really be that you can't, but since people are still convinced, I wanted to know why they believed that. So far I have yet to see any answer that shows how you can truly know what you think you know is happening.

I think I addressed the OP's question in my initial post- if you can't willingly change your environment, then you might just be in the OBE state, that is, in a nonphysical dimension not created by the subconscious mind (as lucid dreams seem to be), a consensus nonphysical reality that exists independent of your own mind. I've never had a lucid dream in which I wasn't able to execute change or manifestation at will, although I am sure there are those who have encountered mental blocks or limiting beliefs that have prevented this, so the test I suggested may not serve as definite proof as to the nature of one's reality.

As far as the definition of OBE relating to the physical dimension, there is nothing inherent about the words "out of body experience" that necessitate the physical dimension. The majority of those experienced in OBEs or astral projection (that I have read or spoken to) understand that these experiences do not take place in the physical dimension, even when the environment looks just like it. Consciousness is leaving the body which is located in the physical dimension and exploring higher dimensions of reality. Consciousness usually inhabits an energy body during OBEs, although sometimes I've just been a point of consciousness in what seems to be "mental projections." Perhaps there isn't much difference between these and lucid dreams, although again, there are small differences in the state of consciousness experienced and the abilities that one has over one's experience and the environment that indicated they are not exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by VinceField

I think I addressed the OP's question in my initial post- if you can't willingly change your environment, then you might just be in the OBE state, that is, in a nonphysical dimension not created by the subconscious mind (as lucid dreams seem to be), a consensus nonphysical reality that exists independent of your own mind. I've never had a lucid dream in which I wasn't able to execute change or manifestation at will, although I am sure there are those who have encountered mental blocks or limiting beliefs that have prevented this, so the test I suggested may not serve as definite proof as to the nature of one's reality.

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Okay, it's possible, but what makes it any more likely than being out of your body on the physical plane? It seems like you are favoring your understanding, but honestly you keep positing more and more information--or at the very least, your explanation relies on highly specific criteria. Normally specificity is a good thing, if used correctly. However, you are being specific about requirements that have virtually no evidence supporting their existence at all. Saying you can OBE is one thing, but going further to explain which dimension you are in? The only reason right now I can see for even postulating something like that is to circumvent the possibility of ever proving OBEs wrong, and you are doing so by purposefully obscuring the definition and requirements for OBEs. Instead of OBEs actually being dreams, now they are things very like dreams but have a tiny difference. Why wouldn't we include the word dream in such an ability? You normally aren't lucid when you dream, and your lucidity makes your dream slightly different, much like how you are defining OBEs. Yet, we still call them lucid dreams. We know that lucidity is not just something you are or aren't, either. You can be partially lucid to varying degrees, altering your level of control and awareness of what is going on. Why wouldn't an OBE simply be a lucid dream in which you have little to no control over? I've had plenty of lucid dreams that I couldn't control, I don't feel like that is valid evidence for proving an OBE is truly an OBE.

We really need to be straight forward here, what definition of OBE are we going to go by? The term, in this discussion, can not be fluid in meaning. That's just confusing and futile to discuss. It already appears I am not alone in believing it means you are out of your body in the physical plane. So far, vince, you are the only one to talk about having OBEs in non physical realities that we have no way of knowing exist, and even if we invent a technology that allows us to experience what others are experiencing, we still couldn't know if they were simply in a dream or not.

There is possibility that OBE(astral and higher dimension contains lower dimensions inside....
Lets see...
1D object (line) contains infinite number of 0D objects(points)
2D object (plane) contains infinite number of 1D objects (line) and also infinite number of 0D objects(points)
3D object (volume(cube, sphere)) contains infinite number of 2D object (planes), infinite number of 1D objects (line) and also infinite number of 0D objects(points)
4D object (volume(cube, sphere)+time) contains infinite number of3D object (volume(cube, sphere)) in different time dimension which doesn't mean only past and future, but also parallel universes. Next it contains also infinite number of 2D object (planes), infinite number of 1D objects (line) and also infinite number of 0D objects(points) We are prisoners of the time, therefore we can't travel in 4D , therefore it was said we are living in 3D space only partially influenced by the time... Or how to say it. Simply, if the time is fully realized in the matter and energy it would be easy to travel trough time and visit alternative timelines...

Astral is said to be 5 dimensional. Therefore it has infinity of 4 dimensional spaces. Now, Imagine looking on physical world from the point of view from 5th dimension. We are used to perceive 3D space... and we can measure the time. Now, what if you can't distinguish which physical dimension (3D+time) is yours? What if you are seeing a few of them at once? Sometimes I see something like blurring around objects... the more easy movable object the larger blurring. I theorized that I see object probability of being at the particular place... And probability of existence also means possible parallel universes... If I see many 4 dimensional universes closest to ours at once, then I would see such blurring...
Mental dimension is said to be in 5D too... But Budhic dimension is said to be in 6D. The much more difficult existence in Budhic dimension is in my opinion based on lack of my mental discipline :) But it could be also because of problem of my mind to interpret what I perceive, and that could lead to problems with adjusting the state of my mind.

What did I written??? Sorry for my english. This is difficult to explain.

I differentiate between OBE and dreams by the state of mind. In LD where I manage to see beyond dream, I usually wake up my OBE "superconsciousness". Everything changes with that. Even environment. Sometimes I find myself closeby to my physical body, sometimes I find myself elsewhere. But there is that "superconsciousness". The higher level of dimension, or the higher dimension, the stronger consciousness is.

I appreciate that you responded, but you are guilty of what I already explained vince is guilty of.

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Originally Posted by Psionik

Astral is said to be 5 dimensional. Therefore it has infinity of 4 dimensional spaces.

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I respond with:

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Originally Posted by snoop

It seems like you are favoring your understanding, but honestly you keep positing more and more information--or at the very least, your explanation relies on highly specific criteria. Normally specificity is a good thing, if used correctly. However, you are being specific about requirements that have virtually no evidence supporting their existence at all. Saying you can OBE is one thing, but going further to explain which dimension you are in? The only reason right now I can see for even postulating something like that is to circumvent the possibility of ever proving OBEs wrong, and you are doing so by purposefully obscuring the definition and requirements for OBEs.

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I like that you are posting your ideas, but they simply suffer from the same fate as the ideas that vince presented.

Snoop... If I could produce myself as apparition, or poltergeist while in OBE, then I would have more than deductions from my experiences... My visions of the future are not very reliable, and they are far in between. My visions of present time is even less frequent. I can't do them on will. Therefore I don't have proof to be 100% sure.
Everything is too personal and subjective. What more could we have other than hypotheses? Physically speaking, we can't prove 5 and higher dimensional space even if for example string theory needs for its functioning 11 dimensions. It functions in mathematics of string theory, but experiments don't show that to us. The same is the dark matter. 21% of the universe... Mathematics and astronomic observations are telling us that there needs to be matter and energy which we don't see. Scientists are talking about dark matter, but nobody has observed it... Ok, I can live with existence of something miniscule unobservable... maybe similar to neutrinos but even more elusive. Or something massive, but not interacting with matter. But what more, more than 74% of the universe is in the form of the dark energy!!! What is the dark energy? How can be energy dark? Photons are photons. Electromagnetic rays.

Perhaps, Snoop, you could simply set the definition yourself, just for the sake of keeping the conversation focused on your OP? It is your thread, after all.

The definition could be the "classic" understanding that an OBE is an event where your consciousness leaves your body but remains in the physical world. This is not only because I agree with it, but because it is simple, and it tends to be what people generally see first as an OBE (they tend to see AP as the inter-dimensional travel vehicle). Also, the feeling that we are out of our body and in the physical realm (like, say, our bedroom) is probably one most experienced LDers have encountered at least once, so the chances would improve that we are all talking about the same thing. Again, the main rationale might just be that this definition is simple, familiar, and requires no discussion of things like other dimensions.

I think that even people who disagree with that definition could probably still be able to discuss how they prove to themselves where they have been... this might be worth a shot, just to move this interesting conversation past its definition stage...

I've actually never had much interest in "proving" where these experiences take place, nor in proving that they are real as opposed to hallucinations. Rather, I focus on how I can use the experiences to better improve myself in terms of spiritual growth and my understanding and knowledge of my self and reality. There is a state of knowing, I call it "higher knowing," that takes place during higher-level experiences, such as the ones when I have merged with my Higher Self and experienced oneness with God/the universe/all of creation (or at least had the apparent experience of doing so), in which there is absolutely no doubt of the reality of the experience and the truth of the insights that come with it. The doubts come only afterwards when the limited physically-attuned consciousness focal point is regained. So one potentially valid perspective may be to see and try to understand the experiences from the limited physical standpoint, but perhaps an even more valid perspective is to see these experiences and reality itself, including physical life, from this higher-level perspective, as it is made crystal clear during these experiences that these dimensions in which divinity is experienced are actually one's true home, one's natural state once shed of the limitations imposed in the physical world. But hey, maybe these are just temporary psychotic episodes.

Snoop, I think if you asked any distinguished or experienced out-of-body traveler, they will likewise tell you that these experiences don't take place in the physical dimension. In my experience, I've never actually found a truly identical version of the physical world during my OBEs. There has always been some slight variations in the very least, and at most grand distortions. This dimensional model comes from countless experiences and corroboration among travelers of all backgrounds and belief systems. Personally, I never say "I am in x dimension" because there are no signs out there saying "Welcome to x dimension!" It is more a matter of recognizing the unique properties of consciousness and reality and correspondence between these and previous experiences which helps to form some kind of general understanding of what level of reality one is in, although knowing this in a definite sense is not something that has been possible for me, nor very desirable. I honestly think the question in the OP may be a bit misguided. Focusing on proof is meaningless if true spiritual growth can be obtained from these experiences, regardless of what you label them or how they are induced.

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Originally Posted by VinceField

I've actually never had much interest in "proving" where these experiences take place, nor in proving that they are real as opposed to hallucinations. Rather, I focus on how I can use the experiences to better improve myself in terms of spiritual growth and my understanding and knowledge of my self and reality. There is a state of knowing, I call it "higher knowing," that takes place during higher-level experiences, such as the ones when I have merged with my Higher Self and experienced oneness with God/the universe/all of creation (or at least had the apparent experience of doing so), in which there is absolutely no doubt of the reality of the experience and the truth of the insights that come with it. The doubts come only afterwards when the limited physically-attuned consciousness focal point is regained. So one potentially valid perspective may be to see and try to understand the experiences from the limited physical standpoint, but perhaps an even more valid perspective is to see these experiences and reality itself, including physical life, from this higher-level perspective, as it is made crystal clear during these experiences that these dimensions in which divinity is experienced are actually one's true home, one's natural state once shed of the limitations imposed in the physical world. But hey, maybe these are just temporary psychotic episodes.

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Perhaps, then, Vince, this is not a thread for you?

Is true spiritual growth really obtained if you are allowing yourself to be deluded by experiences that may be something very different than what you assume they are upon waking? I'm not sure... not that you personally are deluding yourself, of course, but the allowance of delusion does seem the norm these days; it would be nice if we could at least have a taste of what is really going on in these events regardless of the cool explanations we and our corroborating friends attach to them.

I think Snoop's OP is central to one of the major philosophical difficulties that the LD/OBE/AP community -- especially the gurus, like Jurgen Ziewe and Robert Bruce -- have happily glossed over:

Instead of buckling down and struggling to learn to define what it is we experienced in the conscious adventures of our recent night's sleep, we instead happily take the low road and create all sorts of excellent worlds, dimensions, gods, or whatever else which best makes our lucid explorations as cool as possible.

I mean no offence, Vince; I am sure you are confident in the validity of your dimensional travels, and you may be correct in your descriptions of them. But what if you are not? What if, by accepting as truth the first and most interesting explanations you come upon (or that ersatz experts like Mr. Bruce cleverly present), you are actually missing out on something much greater, something that wonderfully transcends the current popular models, and something you can only appreciate by knowing, truly, what is going on? The latter might be impossible to achieve, but once achieved, I guarantee it would be better than just believing where you might have been without proving its existence to yourself.

There is no greater barrier to spiritual growth than self-deception, Vince, and Snoop is one of the rare people around here who chooses to place truth above belief; I think he ought to be given a chance.

Sageous, I have actually stated multiple times now that I am not entirely confident that my travels are what they appear to be and acknowledge the validity of all possibilities (although the likelihood of these possibilities is also factored in based on my experience, research and current understanding), so you are essentially preaching to the choir with the questions and suggestions you have raised.

Some people think that spiritual growth means adopting esoteric beliefs and practices. In my opinion, spiritual growth comes from purifying the mind of its defilements (harmful qualities) and cultivating wholesome qualities. I resonate greatly with Theravada Buddhist philosophy, which actually suggests that practices such as lucid dreaming and OBEs actually serve to clutter the mind and are a hinderance to the purification of the mind. I do believe there is benefit to these practices, however, if one holds the proper perspective and doesn't become attached to the experiences or form belief systems which lead to delusion. In the very least, these experiences can provide insight into deeper aspects of one's mind that may be purposefully or unknowingly hidden from one's normal awareness, as well as a medium for dealing with certain issues and overcoming obstacles in one's mind. I also see potential to discover insights regarding the self and reality that are beyond the range of the physically-attuned mind's ability to access. In my opinion, this applies to both OBEs and LDs (if they are in fact different) equally.

^^ That's all great, Vince, and most impressive! It doesn't seem to agree much with what you've been asserting here, but I guess I must have misunderstood.

Regardless, given this mindset, I'm surprised you are not interested in attempting to honestly understand -- for yourself, and not as proof to others -- where, upon waking, you really just were. It seems to me that assuming things like visits to multiple dimensions is simply another obstacle to overcome, and not a way to better purify your mind. Wouldn't learning to know where you've just been in your lucid exploration actually help you to more effectively gain insight into deeper aspects of your mind? What, after all, is the point of gaining this insight if you fail to (or don't care to) properly remember it upon waking?

I have a feeling that being true to your memory of events is a concept that would sit well in Buddhist practice as well...

Regardless, I still believe there is value in learning to avoid delusion or attaching conclusions about where you were after a suspected OBE based on expectation or what other people have told you... and it seems, based on what you just said, that you might be interested in that as well, right?

Yes, perhaps there's been a misunderstanding. My input on this thread is not what I believe to be absolutely true, but rather what is possible based on my experience and research. Any assumptions made by me are strictly theoretical/speculation and not something I incorporate into my personal worldview. I don't even assume that my waking life is as it seems, let alone my altered state experiences.

I do see some assumptions being made about me and what I believe, however, that do not reflect reality.

I have done tests to attempt to discern "where" I was and what the nature of my environment was like. One such test is requesting for all subconscious and dream elements be removed from my perception. Interestingly, sometimes when done in the out-of-body state, certain elements disappear while others remain, as if the reality is a mixture of both subconscious and independently existing elements. There have been other times when I received what seemed to be direct knowing of my current state and the reality I was in, and it was clear that attempting to assign a name or location to the experience was completely missing the point.

Regarding your last question, I think I've been pretty clear in answering it already.

I think I'm going to wrap things up here with a short conclusion of my thoughts on the matter: While there are indications that there may be different modes of lucid consciousness beyond the bounds of the physical world (lucid dreaming, astral projection, etc), physical proof will probably never be obtained to allow absolute epistemic certainty, so if this is what one considers necessary to be "reasonably certain," then one will never be certain. There are, however, tests that one can perform that can allow psychological certainty, particularly as one develops the discernment and experience to recognize the variations in the potentially different modes of experience. Regardless, certainty between OBE and LD is not needed for an individual to benefit from these experiences, and if one goes about their OBEs/LDs constantly seeking proof, they may miss out on some really powerful and potentially transformative experiences that may be squandered by doubt or by obsessing about satisfying the ego's need for proof rather than taking the opportunity to explore and learn. Keep in mind that it may be a false assumption to believe that OBEs and LDs are different things to begin with, or that dreams and LDs are solely the product of the brain or take place entirely in one's head. I could very well ask how you can be certain that LDs are not OBEs, and you will likely find the same challenges in doing so, as it's essentially the same thing but starting out with a different assumption.

I just think this was a great thread. :)

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Originally Posted by Dthoughts

I just think this was a great thread. :)

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Is it done?

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Is it done?

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I would hope not! It was a great thread. Wheter it continues to do so. Only time will tell. :D

A grammar nazi would have said, "This has been a great thread!"

Haha. For me it's probably done. Not sure I can add anything of value without repeating myself (not that what I've said thus far has necessarily been of value).

I really have to hand it to pretty much everyone who responded to this thread. This has been one of the first experiences I have ever had in beyond dreaming in which the party that is skeptical of what some believe to a fact of reality are able to effectively communicate with the believers of that fact meaningfully, and vice versa. There was almost no (if any) arrogant and condescending statements, except maybe a few that arose from simple misunderstandings that didn't persist much beyond their initial posts. I'm really glad to have been able to have this discussion, for once I feel like both sides have found out more about what they actually believe. Hopefully it isn't the end of the thread, anyone new to the discussion is more than welcome to join, but I can say (for once) that I am proud of the people that responded. This has been pleasant, it's really a rare occurrence.

^one word, mercury retrograde :P

Oh this again. Useless discussion. Nothing written will prove to anyone one way or another. Believe what you will based on YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, zero reason to prove to ANYONE else because it's just not gonna happen. There is no prophet, there is no master here other than yourself. If it satisfies your own conclusion then stop trying to argue everyone else's.

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Originally Posted by Runeword

Oh this again. Useless discussion. Nothing written will prove to anyone one way or another. Believe what you will based on YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, zero reason to prove to ANYONE else because it's just not gonna happen. There is no prophet, there is no master here other than yourself. If it satisfies your own conclusion then stop trying to argue everyone else's.

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I disagree about the "useless" part. There is always a chance to learn from the experiences and insight of others.

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Originally Posted by Runeword

Oh this again. Useless discussion. Nothing written will prove to anyone one way or another. Believe what you will based on YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, zero reason to prove to ANYONE else because it's just not gonna happen. There is no prophet, there is no master here other than yourself. If it satisfies your own conclusion then stop trying to argue everyone else's.

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I'm not sure you picked up on the main theme of this thread, Runeword.

We are not talking about proving anything to anybody here. We are talking about how to find a way to understand for yourself where you've been or what really happened after a suspected OBE. While discussing this we might have wandered of into the realm of definitions, but I don't think even then we were talking about proving anything to anyone else.

Among the difficulties discussed, though, was delusion, which can open the door to deciding you had experiences that never really happened, simply because you wish to believe that you did. This sounds like something that could easily happen if you were to base everything on personal experience only, as you said above -- especially if you choose to believe your conclusion about what happened immediately, without taking care to remember it as honestly and thoroughly as you can. I personally don't think that is the best way to go, especially if you want to grow in your experiences or learn to explore to deeper depths; maybe you could elaborate?

So it might not be time yet to dismiss this conversation as another useless "I'm right, you're wrong!"/"Yeah, well prove it!" argument; because it isn't. Given your post, I think you might have had some interesting things to add, because we are discussing the evaluation and (personal) validation of our personal experiences here, and not much else.

This conversation (as well as others on this site) make me more aware of the importance of this question. What else but memory can be used to assess the past?

Would it be a satisfactory answer to contemplate multiple possibilities? For example, if I were to experience an OBE, I could entertain the memory that I did indeed have an OBE, and then during a subsequent analysis of this experience, I could interpret it as if it was a dream. This could be done alternatively and with other interpretations. I don't think this helps to find for sure what truly happened but at least it seems practical.

I owe an apology here. The frustration of seeing this same thread written in so many forms got to me during a late night. Let me try to add something more sensible to this conversation. Did anyone else here watch the X-Files series? Remember that poster that agent Mulder had hanging in his office with the UFO that had in caption "I Want To Believe?" For me that statement ends all. This conversation is just too personal of a subject along the same lines as "I saw an alien UFO, I believe Jesus is God, etc etc etc." There is no proof to share that will make one person right or wrong enough to put this debate and conversation to rest. If someone "wants to believe" in something and it gives them something to be excited about and a desire to learn more and seek more knowledge GREAT! For me personally I am willing to let each person be happy with their own discoveries and beliefs (which WILL change with time and experience.)

Runeword: we all have our own small proofs, it is on us, the travellers, whether we start to believe blindly to those proofs, or we are trying to find something stronger, more certain. Some of us are believing strong and fanatically... others are more skeptic. I prefer more scientific approach(I'm researcher in the field of inorganic materials in this physical reality), therefore my proofs are not enough for me. I need something reliable and repeatable. I didn't manage that yet and I don't know if I would manage that ever. But that is not stopping me. I take my spiritual way as hobby.

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Originally Posted by Runeword

I owe an apology here. The frustration of seeing this same thread written in so many forms got to me during a late night. Let me try to add something more sensible to this conversation. Did anyone else here watch the X-Files series? Remember that poster that agent Mulder had hanging in his office with the UFO that had in caption "I Want To Believe?" For me that statement ends all. This conversation is just too personal of a subject along the same lines as "I saw an alien UFO, I believe Jesus is God, etc etc etc." There is no proof to share that will make one person right or wrong enough to put this debate and conversation to rest. If someone "wants to believe" in something and it gives them something to be excited about and a desire to learn more and seek more knowledge GREAT! For me personally I am willing to let each person be happy with their own discoveries and beliefs (which WILL change with time and experience.)

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There is a big difference between blind belief and belief born of experience and firsthand insight.

And yet, still, this thread is not about belief; at least I don't believe it was meant to be.

What we are discussing is how we go about understanding what just happened to us when we wake from an event that seemed like a OBE: how we establish what really happened, as opposed to what we immediately think might have happened.

Sure, attaching your personal belief to what happened, and deciding that you had an OBE because you "want to believe" that you had one, is one way of sorting out the nature of where you just were. However, I think there may be other ways to better confirm or define the nature of your experience, and those ways are very likely couched in memory.

For instance:

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Would it be a satisfactory answer to contemplate multiple possibilities? For example, if I were to experience an OBE, I could entertain the memory that I did indeed have an OBE, and then during a subsequent analysis of this experience, I could interpret it as if it was a dream. This could be done alternatively and with other interpretations. I don't think this helps to find for sure what truly happened but at least it seems practical.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

We are talking about how to find a way to understand for yourself where you've been or what really happened after a suspected OBE.

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What about visiting the same place twice? a place you have never been before that exists only in the astral? There's been a few of these places for me that I've encountered in dreams, I have good situational awareness so I can recall it if I've been there once before. I've read that you can encounter astral area's in your dreams where it's a consensus reality made up by other beings who exist there. So this means there are cities and other places where astral beings live that do not change, that also do not exist here in physical reality on earth. Either that or my mind is conjuring up a new city and I'm revisiting it later on.

But then that brings me to point number two. Astral beings. I've had a number of encounters with 'dream characters' that seem to have higher intelligence than regular DC's. They have their own agenda, sometimes their own powers and abilities, but generally they just stand out as being different or unique, like they have a mind of their own.

But it all comes full circle to the question "how do I know this isn't my mind playing tricks on me?" At the end of the day astral beings and astral cities could very well be figments of my imagination, without another person there to verify it makes it difficult to discern the truth. My only hope is that I find out when I die because if the astral is real then that's most likely where everyone ends up.

I'd like to point out that it's possible to be certain of something without the existence of the proof that would be required to convince another person that one's certainty is justifiable. Certainty is a subjective thing, a feeling. Whether one chooses to base this on objective and verifiable facts is up to the person. Again, the important thing is that a person uses these experiences in a way which brings benefit to their lives. Otherwise one is simply waisting their time.

^^ Once more: I don't think we're talking about -- or even considering -- proving anything to another person.

But that certainty you mention is certainly important, especially as you mention it. I think the real question here is how we gain that certainty.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Once more: I don't think we're talking about -- or even considering -- proving anything to another person.

But that certainty you mention is certainly important, especially as you mention it. I think the real question here is how we gain that certainty.

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Going by the many people I've spoken to who have had at least one "OBE," it seems that for most, the experience itself is proof enough on a personal level, and being certain of the "fact" that one is operating independent and beyond the confines of the physical body is no different from being certain that one is "in" the body during normal waking life, again, at least on an experiential level. For all we know, our OBEs are actually lucid dreams, and our waking reality is actually a virtual reality simulation. Being that what we generally label as "OBEs" occur directly from the waking state rather than from the dream state (like a normal lucid dream), and can and do occur when there should be no REM sleep in sight, it could be that assigning the label "lucid dream" to these experiences is just as much of a belief as is calling them an OBE.

The OP does mention applying the burden of proof, and I think that it is possible that he is either looking for someone to show him some or trying to make the point that there is none and may never be, as his idea of "reasonable certainty" is directly associated with this proof. It seems a common argument against certainty is, "how can you be certain when there is no proof?" I think that usually when one asks "how can you be certain," they are essentially looking for some kind of proof.

To those that don't believe, no proof is enough. To those that believe, no proof is necessary. :P

This being said, I think that OBE and AP are a type of dream (not lucid dream, because you think it is AP or OBE, not a dream, and a lucid dream is a dream that you think it is a dream). I think that something that helps me with this belief is the phenomenon of "seeing through your eyelids" I know that several on DV have had. Generally happens in a time similar to a WILD or an OBE would be good, but when you get up for your WBTB like I do, you notice that you can see perfectly with your eyes closed. It is quite trippy. It happens a lot when I am in a state of "high imagination" that happens during WBTBs, I can do things like... these are actually kinda strange examples, but here they are.
Imagine something in my head and it will be as solid as a dream, but generally with only a few senses. like sight, hearing, and smell. I have played chess games like this and the DC I was playing moved in very realistic ways and the chess board was stable. After about 5 minutes, I usually lose the ability, switch into a dream, or switch into a lucid dream.

I have had some fun doing things that are a little more awesome results like multiplying large numbers in my head very quickly. I mean to use a fake calculator sometime soon, but what I did before was just imagine the whole problem out and use two 4 digit numbers. Not an impossible thing for someone to do, but not easy for me. I was able to imagine the numbers and come back to them later because it was solid. When I got an answer I would immediately check the answer on a calculator and it was right. The problem here is that I lose the state when I check my calc usually and lose a chance to LD, so I stopped experimenting with that.

More fun is to talk to DCs in this state because it is easier to remember things that happen and have "100% waking awareness" In order to get more out of talking to DCs I even have gone to Skype and read long long messages that never happened.

At this stage I have been able to learn how to always see through my eyelids when there, but also to be able to move with "my imaginary body"

I don't know why I am off on such a tangent, but basically what I am saying is that I think that the mind holds more information than we know and is able to keep track of large amounts of things that we don't think of. So walking around your house with your eyes closed and not bumping into anything because you can see it doesn't mean that you can "sense it" but that your mind remembers. An OBE is basically the same thing only getting closer to a dream state and believing firmly that you are actually in your house will solidify that world and will give you an exact replica of what your mind last saw in your house. Some details may be off, but you will generally gloss over those because you are indeed in a different "state" and it might just be what the "astral world" looks like.

This also being said I once had an OBE that resulted in my body getting up and fighting me and threatening me like a maniac. I realized quickly that this was not an OBE, but a dream, but it had every OBE like thing that people mention except for one thing: I don't believe in OBEs, so it became more dreamlike (I believe that I tried to go to the moon that day and learned how to do dimensional warping).

"I don't believe in the same thing that you do."
"my belief does not require you to."

People say that we have proved lucid dreaming, but it could be "advanced incubation" if you think about all the tests that we have run. Nothing that is 100% proof. :P

This is how I have come to understand my experiences within the words many have used to define them.

A lucid dream: is normally for me a dream only, this is the conscious human mind and is more related to daily thoughts.

A astral projection: is within the higher mind and its ability to form whole matrices around single thoughts normally geared towards finding answers to things the mind cannot find. A astral projection can be lead and has the ability to take on any form created by the mind of the person. Astral projections can be forced through the minds of shadows drawing the person into another world within their minds. In a recent astral projection I was suspended several miles above the surface of this world sitting in a small space or pod looking down on a world. I felt like I was there, and I could see and sense all the things around me but it was still not real it had things missing. I then felt the pod release and started speeding towards the ground at a very high rate of acceleration. I spent 3 years in the 82nd airborne and made many jumps from aircraft during my time in. The feeling I got during this decent was very familiar to the feelings of flight and falling from high altitudes. I have had so many of these type experiences in my life to understand they are only astral projections. The higher mind is the place these experiences happen.

There are many levels of astral projections depending on the individual. The more real the experience the more aware you are of it. I have had astral experiences that mimic obes, in the feel and awareness but they are still astral projections. An example of this would be like. I exit my body and start to look around and notice things that are not really their in real life, a book shelf where the dresser goes or an old chair still here when you had thrown it many years ago. I have seen doorways were no doors have ever been and rooms painted colors they have never been. These are only astral projections.

An obe: An obe is that place just before astral projection, it is a fine point that has to be carefully entered. If you start to think to much about it you will fall into the astral and enter into the higher mind. People that suffer or experience sleep paralysis often get a feel for this. If you relax to much you will fall into the astral but if you just remain there and wait and hold you can pull out into the veil. an obe and astral projection are so far from the same thing that no one should ever get them confused or speculate on what experience you just had. in an obe if I leave my body I have to return to it to get back in, this is not so in an astral projection or Ld experience.

This is just my two cents worth and only from my experiences as I have come to understand them.

Powessy

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Originally Posted by VinceField

I'd like to point out that it's possible to be certain of something without the existence of the proof that would be required to convince another person that one's certainty is justifiable. Certainty is a subjective thing, a feeling. Whether one chooses to base this on objective and verifiable facts is up to the person. Again, the important thing is that a person uses these experiences in a way which brings benefit to their lives. Otherwise one is simply waisting their time.

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Wouldn't certainty be a very lofty concept to base one's beliefs on, then? It goes without saying that someone that is certain of something can be wrong. Nothing about what you've said here is untrue in anyway. However, when one becomes aware of other possibilities and dismisses them for reasons that aren't logical (or perhaps a better way of putting it is for reasons that are purposefully denying the existence of other possibilities for reasons such as personal comfort, because something is cool, because you want simply want to believe in it, etc.), I have to ask why? I guess it boils down to an individuals personality, but it is a mystery why someone would rather believe something they know may well likely be untrue for reasons of comfort, simplicity, or some other reason I can't fathom. Do some people really not care to try and know the "truth"? Even if the concept of truth itself is unattainable, does one ever stop desiring to actually understand what is going on around them?

The sad truth of the matter is that there are more people that would prefer to follow your line of thought, rather than mine. It isn't sad because it isn't "my" line of thought they follow in the self-centered sort of way, but merely that there are not equal parts those who wish to understand what is going on around them despite the answers that are readily presented to explain our experiences, and those who would rather experience life based on their concepts of contentedness and their baser desires. The two would balance each other out quite well, but there seem to be an astounding abundance of humans who would rather live complacently.

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Originally Posted by Sensei

To those that don't believe, no proof is enough. To those that believe, no proof is necessary.

This being said, I think that OBE and AP are a type of dream (not lucid dream, because you think it is AP or OBE, not a dream, and a lucid dream is a dream that you think it is a dream). I think that something that helps me with this belief is the phenomenon of "seeing through your eyelids" I know that several on DV have had. Generally happens in a time similar to a WILD or an OBE would be good, but when you get up for your WBTB like I do, you notice that you can see perfectly with your eyes closed. It is quite trippy. It happens a lot when I am in a state of "high imagination" that happens during WBTBs, I can do things like... these are actually kinda strange examples, but here they are.
Imagine something in my head and it will be as solid as a dream, but generally with only a few senses. like sight, hearing, and smell. I have played chess games like this and the DC I was playing moved in very realistic ways and the chess board was stable. After about 5 minutes, I usually lose the ability, switch into a dream, or switch into a lucid dream.

I have had some fun doing things that are a little more awesome results like multiplying large numbers in my head very quickly. I mean to use a fake calculator sometime soon, but what I did before was just imagine the whole problem out and use two 4 digit numbers. Not an impossible thing for someone to do, but not easy for me. I was able to imagine the numbers and come back to them later because it was solid. When I got an answer I would immediately check the answer on a calculator and it was right. The problem here is that I lose the state when I check my calc usually and lose a chance to LD, so I stopped experimenting with that.

More fun is to talk to DCs in this state because it is easier to remember things that happen and have "100% waking awareness" In order to get more out of talking to DCs I even have gone to Skype and read long long messages that never happened.

At this stage I have been able to learn how to always see through my eyelids when there, but also to be able to move with "my imaginary body"

I don't know why I am off on such a tangent, but basically what I am saying is that I think that the mind holds more information than we know and is able to keep track of large amounts of things that we don't think of. So walking around your house with your eyes closed and not bumping into anything because you can see it doesn't mean that you can "sense it" but that your mind remembers. An OBE is basically the same thing only getting closer to a dream state and believing firmly that you are actually in your house will solidify that world and will give you an exact replica of what your mind last saw in your house. Some details may be off, but you will generally gloss over those because you are indeed in a different "state" and it might just be what the "astral world" looks like.

This also being said I once had an OBE that resulted in my body getting up and fighting me and threatening me like a maniac. I realized quickly that this was not an OBE, but a dream, but it had every OBE like thing that people mention except for one thing: I don't believe in OBEs, so it became more dreamlike (I believe that I tried to go to the moon that day and learned how to do dimensional warping).

"I don't believe in the same thing that you do."
"my belief does not require you to."

People say that we have proved lucid dreaming, but it could be "advanced incubation" if you think about all the tests that we have run. Nothing that is 100% proof.

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Nice post. I have had very similar experiences, especially when just waking up after being in the middle of dreaming.

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Originally Posted by Eonnn

What about visiting the same place twice? a place you have never been before that exists only in the astral? There's been a few of these places for me that I've encountered in dreams, I have good situational awareness so I can recall it if I've been there once before. I've read that you can encounter astral area's in your dreams where it's a consensus reality made up by other beings who exist there. So this means there are cities and other places where astral beings live that do not change, that also do not exist here in physical reality on earth. Either that or my mind is conjuring up a new city and I'm revisiting it later on.

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How do you know it is really the same place? Could it be a very similar place that, through confirmation bias is then "remembered" as being the same? The place was more or less a "skeleton" of the same place with similar attributes projected onto it, and upon your remembrance the projected characteristics are reprojected as what you just saw? After all, it would be quicker for the mind to use a collection of the "images" you just saw to remember what you saw before. The striking similarity and the perceived impossibility thereof would be convincing enough to forget any real differences. Hell, it's difficult to spot the differences in still pictures half the time (ever seen two pictures and been asked to identify what is missing in them? It's surprisingly hard). Are you sure you have never seen or been to this place before? What if you've seen it in a magazine or movie and you simply don't remember it?

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Originally Posted by snoop

Wouldn't certainty be a very lofty concept to base one's beliefs on, then? It goes without saying that someone that is certain of something can be wrong. Nothing about what you've said here is untrue in anyway. However, when one becomes aware of other possibilities and dismisses them for reasons that aren't logical (or perhaps a better way of putting it is for reasons that are purposefully denying the existence of other possibilities for reasons such as personal comfort, because something is cool, because you want simply want to believe in it, etc.), I have to ask why? I guess it boils down to an individuals personality, but it is a mystery why someone would rather believe something they know may well likely be untrue for reasons of comfort, simplicity, or some other reason I can't fathom. Do some people really not care to try and know the "truth"? Even if the concept of truth itself is unattainable, does one ever stop desiring to actually understand what is going on around them?

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I feel most people who illogically cling to beliefs do so because they are either uncomfortable with the reality that the belief is masking, or they are simply uncomfortable with accepting what they do not know and would rather pretend to know the truth.

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he sad truth of the matter is that there are more people that would prefer to follow your line of thought, rather than mine. It isn't sad because it isn't "my" line of thought they follow in the self-centered sort of way, but merely that there are not equal parts those who wish to understand what is going on around them despite the answers that are readily presented to explain our experiences, and those who would rather experience life based on their concepts of contentedness and their baser desires. The two would balance each other out quite well, but there seem to be an astounding abundance of humans who would rather live complacently.

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Sure, some, perhaps even many, do not actively explore the nature of their "OBEs" and just take them at face value. There are others, however, who have good reason to distinguish OBEs from LDs, as countless experiences of both have made the differences between the two obvious. Of course, there are just as many assumptions made about aspects of the lucid dream experience that I see constantly going unquestioned, ones I can almost guarantee you yourself haven't explored despite claiming to be all about seeking the truth. It's very easy to take one's own beliefs for granted, especially when they are commonly accepted.

I raised essentially the same question as the OP on Robert Bruce's astral dynamics forum and got one interesting response:

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Flew to a party as a child and saw who was there and what some people were wearing. Told my mom, after she had an apoplectic fit (she thought I had somehow found a way to the party, sneaking there) she verified my observations.

My son and my husband went to a friends house- I stayed home, and took a 'nap'- flew to where they were going, and was amazed to see them playing on the roof of a very dangerous-looking treehouse. I was so upset it broke the trance. Later on, when they came home, they verified that his friend's dad had built him a new treehouse and he did indeed climb on the roof, for which he got an earful.

Another time my husband had gotten a new job, and I saw him in a white room with some weird looking pins and little round metal balls in what looked like a tackle box. I called him to 'say hi' and he verified that he had been changing the locks of his workplace, and the thing I had seen was a locksmith's box and the pins and 'balls' were differently-sized pins, that go on the inside of a lock. My husband is not a locksmith, but is a quick learner, and that's what he was doing.

A friend and I had the same dream, a somber thing, in which we were going up north to a funeral. A friend of us was driving. Even though we were not close, she did tell me about it, astounding me as I had the same dream, but had not especially thought it was anything more than a dream. Then a coworker of ours died and she had to be driven to her home state, and the driver in the dream was the driver in reality. We had the dream approximately a week before the event happened, but this one, although not a realtime RTZ projection, had some interesting elements in it. I only mention it because I am not precognitive, I believe what happened is that my friend might be, and for some reason I projected into her dream, making it a weird experience with various elements.

There are many many more, but I can't think of anything with such clear verifications.

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Of course, the possibility of these being ESP events rather than actual OBEs may exist, but I see no reason to assume this is the case.

By definition, if those people tell the truth, which is in now way guarantied no matter who and how many they are, what they are talking about IS ESP cause they didn't get those infos by some of the 5 body senses.

Now the question is : are those infos the result of a kind of remote viewing, (or telepathy or something like that), or is this because the ..what? soul? consciousness? - whatever, that can travel without being seen, able to capture some electro magnetic waves/photons without disturbing it (a visual observation is a capture of electro magnetic waves in the visible spectra) , able to hear things without any physical element that can capture any sound (sound is a acoustic wave, so it's mechanical) - so because their non physical "me" was here, observing the scene ?

I see some reasons (suggested in my last long sentence) to assume this is ESP.
But how ESP is supposed to work? I don't know.

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Originally Posted by VinceField

I feel most people who illogically cling to beliefs do so because they are either uncomfortable with the reality that the belief is masking, or they are simply uncomfortable with accepting what they do not know and would rather pretend to know the truth.

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I think you are right about that Vince. You hit the nail on the head, actually. My point here, though, is that it seems strange to me that when they become aware that what they believe may not be the case, that they don't even want to think about the possibility. Sometimes they even treat the notion that exploring that belief's factual validity as taboo. What's so strange about that is the inconsistency one has when it comes to this. There are some things people want to get to the bottom of, and there are somethings that people would rather live in blissful ignorance toward. Why is that? I've always figured it was because those bits of ignorance were something that some part of that person's identity hinged on. Something so crucial in affecting one's behavior, beliefs, and thoughts would be something one would be highly reluctant to believe isn't true. So many things you have been doing, saying, and thinking have all been based on what you thought you were so sure of all this time, and then you find out that in reality, you had been doing, saying, and thinking all those things based on essentially "nothing". I hesitate to say it was truly based on nothing, but that isn't my point. My point is that this is the reaction you would typically expect from really almost anybody. I have been guilty of this in the past, but once I was made aware that it was occurring, I decided to change my behavior. There is no reason that I shouldn't be able to admit that something that I believe in, no matter how strongly, could possibly be wrong.

To go a step further, to prevent my future inability to admit to wrong doing or mistakenly believing something and refusing to admit it and change my ideas, I have put an effort into not basing my sense of self on things that have the possibility of changing and then leaving my world and who I think I am fractured as a result. Not only does it keep me more honest and open minded, but it is healthier for me, in my opinion. There isn't anything that I know of right now that somebody could tell me about myself that would cause me to break down. My identity isn't composed of things that are temporary. If somehow it is, I am aware that it is temporary and embrace the fact that it will change and don't let that change what I think about who I am, unless of course I need to think about who I am and what I do, and it needs changing. They idea here is to provide the most flexibility to any situation as possible. Failure to adapt means I will slide down a slippery slope to complacency. What's wrong with being complacent? Well, if you get too comfortable with any one thing, you lose sight of things. You have to maintain a balance. Nature, your body, everything seems to function on the principles of never going too far in one direction at any given time without going, at some point, equally too far in the opposite direction. If you deviate too far to any one side of the poles on the invisible spectrum, you are going to suffer in one way or another. A very obvious example is death. If our body fails to maintain itself and operate within a set range of conditions, the result is death or something along the lines of illness. The point here is that when you get too far out of balance, bad things start to happen. Unless you can adapt to these things, you will keep suffering for it.

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Originally Posted by VinceField

Sure, some, perhaps even many, do not actively explore the nature of their "OBEs" and just take them at face value. There are others, however, who have good reason to distinguish OBEs from LDs, as countless experiences of both have made the differences between the two obvious. Of course, there are just as many assumptions made about aspects of the lucid dream experience that I see constantly going unquestioned, ones I can almost guarantee you yourself haven't explored despite claiming to be all about seeking the truth. It's very easy to take one's own beliefs for granted, especially when they are commonly accepted.

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You are right again. I haven't explored a lot of the aspects about lucid dreaming. To varying degrees I have, but for the most part it has been more or less limited to more PSI related phenomena or shared dreaming because they are more controversial and in a way more interesting and fun to explore. Now that you brought this interesting point up though, I'll probably be thinking about it more. See, that's why I love discussion! Now my awareness of something has been raised, and we all are going to win for it. How much we win is going to depend pretty heavily on a lot of factors, but let's say we had never had this discussion. The point you brought up here might never have been brought to my attention until much later on in life, or possibly never at all. Then, our ignorance on something as interesting as LDing might stay at relatively the same level for a much longer period of time, and that's a shame, ins't it?

The reason I'm asking these questions is because I'm afraid that enough people are simply satisfied with their beliefs and choose to use the fantasy they have created for themselves that we will, as species, be prolonging our ignorance on things. If everyone chose to play house all their lives rather than explore, experiment, or learn, we would be failing to adapt as a species. None of what we have now, none of what we've learned, developed, engineered, dreamed of, invented, or created if everyone wanted to just be comfortable their whole lives, to be simple and plain or boring and quiet. There is a time for that in life, we all need breaks and to stop and reflect on things and to relax, but life is too big to obsess over pleasure and comfort. All in all, you can never convince everyone of anything. That's just the way it is. The people that go too far in either direction to try and convince people to be one way or the other are a lot of the time (though not always) just trying to get things moving more in one direction, because any change that happens in a big population is going to happen fairly slowly. It is foolish to think everyone could try and be in the middle on pretty much everything, but if nobody tried one way or the other it'd all be for naught anyway. In a way I could say that this discussion here is useless, but I know that's simply not true. To do something almost always is better than to do nothing. Not always true, but just look at this thread. Have we gotten anywhere near "proving" OBEs are OBEs or LDs at all, or "proving" that they aren't? Not in any direct way, no. However, all of our minds have been opened in the process, and I have learned things and had new ideas as a result of the discussion, so by no means is this wasted time at all. Not to mention it's fun and my opinions on a lot of the people who have responded have changed.

Kaan

If one obtained this information in the way that psychics generally receive information- like a direct download of information into the mind- then I would assume it was esp. If one obtained this information in an experience in which one's consciousness seems to leave the body and travel to the place where the future situation takes place, witnessing those events as if one is actually there, then unless one has a preconceived bias against the possibility of OBEs, there is little reason to assume that the experience was not an OBE. Regarding the senses used to obtain this information, it is possible that ESP senses are the same as OBE and even LD senses, but this does not necessarily make them the same type of experience. Note that I am distinguishing ESP from the OBE experience, although you could technically classify OBEs as a type of ESP experience. It seems likely that there are different modes or types of ESP, and I am essentially referring to "psychic knowing" as ESP and an OBE as a projection of mind/consciousness into a genuine reality. Tough to say exactly how ESP (non-OBE) works though.

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Originally Posted by VinceField

I raised essentially the same question as the OP on Robert Bruce's astral dynamics forum and got one interesting response:

Flew to a party as a child and saw who was there and what some people were wearing. Told my mom, after she had an apoplectic fit (she thought I had somehow found a way to the party, sneaking there) she verified my observations.

My son and my husband went to a friends house- I stayed home, and took a 'nap'- flew to where they were going, and was amazed to see them playing on the roof of a very dangerous-looking treehouse. I was so upset it broke the trance. Later on, when they came home, they verified that his friend's dad had built him a new treehouse and he did indeed climb on the roof, for which he got an earful.

Another time my husband had gotten a new job, and I saw him in a white room with some weird looking pins and little round metal balls in what looked like a tackle box. I called him to 'say hi' and he verified that he had been changing the locks of his workplace, and the thing I had seen was a locksmith's box and the pins and 'balls' were differently-sized pins, that go on the inside of a lock. My husband is not a locksmith, but is a quick learner, and that's what he was doing.

A friend and I had the same dream, a somber thing, in which we were going up north to a funeral. A friend of us was driving. Even though we were not close, she did tell me about it, astounding me as I had the same dream, but had not especially thought it was anything more than a dream. Then a coworker of ours died and she had to be driven to her home state, and the driver in the dream was the driver in reality. We had the dream approximately a week before the event happened, but this one, although not a realtime RTZ projection, had some interesting elements in it. I only mention it because I am not precognitive, I believe what happened is that my friend might be, and for some reason I projected into her dream, making it a weird experience with various elements.

There are many many more, but I can't think of anything with such clear verifications.

Of course, the possibility of these being ESP events rather than actual OBEs may exist, but I see no reason to assume this is the case.

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I described a room of one of my friends as I saw it during my OBE... rough outline :) I was never there before... Well, I admit she was surprised too :) I agree that it may have other explanation than me being there... Also I must admit that what I saw wasn't exact thing. There were things in the room which weren't present at the time. Some of them were there in past. Also, one interesting thing was, that she moved her bed a few weeks before and I saw it at the new place. (maybe I saw that room in many different time periods at the same time?)

Why can't I say that OBE could have remote viewing qualities? When I go out of my body, everything looks very real. What if some parts of what I see is intersecting with physical reality- when I'm moving either as spirit, or if I have only illusion of moving but in reality I only imagine it and see it like 3D movie?

Just small edit- the place where I fought energetic vampires- I was able to visit it a few years later, because before that it was closed to public. There are two ponds since then- for recreational fishing, where the pit with their den(lair?) was in my OBE experience.