Thread: How to be reasonably certain you are having an OBE rather than a lucid dream?

Originally Posted by VinceField

It sounds to me like you are the one being fooled! Why? Because you are completely ruling out the possibility of these experiences being genuine without sufficient evidence to do so. The truely intellectually honest approach would be to accept the possibility that they are genuine, as there is absolutely no proof that they are not, and there is enough subjective corroborative evidence to suggest that OBEs are different in some way than LDs, therefore placing an acceptible level of doubt on the notion that OBEs and LDs are the same exact phenomenon. You are essentially guilty of the very same wishful thinking as those you are speaking out against.

The question pointed out in this thread is "How to be reasonably certain you are having an OBE rather than a lucid dream?" , not "is there a chance that it could be possible".

my answer to the second question would be yes, maybe.
My answer the the question of this thread is that I don't think the subjective certitudes are something you can trust with any doubt as the brain is absolutely able to produce these dreamlike experiences called OBE or LD, as well as it can also produce a scary and real like Sleep Paralysis scenarios.
It's really not an issue for the brain to make you live a fucking real like experience and making you persuaded that what you are living is the real shit.

yes, you can say that " there is absolutely no proof that they are not (legit)", as you can say that there is absolutely no proof that there is not an enormous alien spaceship behind the hidden side of the sun, but this kind of argument has no real value.
That's the kind of tricky argument you can use when you want to defend a belief, presenting it as a fact but without the beginning of a proof that it is a fact.
So you attack the opposed position telling them that they can not prove that the magical thing you believe in is not legit.

OBE and LD have a lot more in common that what you suggest.
One of the differences you pointed out is the impossibility of changing environment.
I had OBEs where I could change the environment, and I had a LD where I couldn't change anything.
So this is not big difference between both.

When You try a WILD, sometimes it starts like a classical LD, but if you are too focused on your body sensations for example(real body or dream body), you have chances to live an OBE, but a part from the scenario, the context, the expectation, I don't see a serious reason to be certain that OBE are something else than a Dream scenario, except this tricky certitude you have when you live it, which could be an hallucinated feeling.

What I wanted to add is that some people think that if they can bring back some checkable objective data from their OBE, then this is the evidence that OBE is a real out of body travel of the self.
But if you accept the existence of ESP, like telepathy, remote viewing (let's be opened mind) then you can not pretend anymore that the OBE must be real if such data are reported, cause you still can see the OBE as a special dream where checkable Data from the real world are projected in the dream scenario.

So, to be certain that OBE/AP are something else than some special kind of dream/LD, you can think it, you can be persuaded of it, but for me this is far from being an objective fact.

Originally Posted by Kaan

The question pointed out in this thread is "How to be reasonably certain you are having an OBE rather than a lucid dream?" , not "is there a chance that it could be possible".

my answer to the second question would be yes, maybe.

In your original response you seemed quite certain that OBEs are nothing but convincing dreams.

My answer the the question of this thread is that I don't think the subjective certitudes are something you can trust with any doubt as the brain is absolutely able to produce these dreamlike experiences called OBE or LD, as well as it can also produce a scary and real like Sleep Paralysis scenarios.
It's really not an issue for the brain to make you live a fucking real like experience and making you persuaded that what you are living is the real shit.

Haha such strong language! I agree for the most part. The differences between the experiences are not something to be ignored, however, and suggest that perhaps they shouldn't be so easily lumped into the same category of experience.

yes, you can say that " there is absolutely no proof that they are not (legit)", as you can say that there is absolutely no proof that there is not an enormous alien spaceship behind the hidden side of the sun, but this kind of argument has no real value.

It has value to those who value having an open mind, although it is equally important to evaluate the likelihood of any given possibility. The possibility we are speaking of here may be more likely than the one you compared it to based on the experiences of many.

OBE and LD have a lot more in common that what you suggest.
One of the differences you pointed out is the impossibility of changing environment.
I had OBEs where I could change the environment, and I had a LD where I couldn't change anything.
So this is not big difference between both.

They do have a lot in common, more in common than not. I simply stated that there are differences that may hold some significance. I didn't say it was impossible to change the environment during an OBE. I said it can be nearly impossible to change the environment during some OBEs. Not all of these experiences are cut from the same cloth, there is a seemingly wide array of dimensions with their own unique characteristics which affect one's consciousness and one's abilities during the experience.

When You try a WILD, sometimes it starts like a classical LD, but if you are too focused on your body sensations for example(real body or dream body), you have chances to live an OBE, but a part from the scenario, the context, the expectation, I don't see a serious reason to be certain that OBE are something else than a Dream scenario, except this tricky certitude you have when you live it, which could be an hallucinated feeling.

Yes, perhaps claiming to have 100% epistemic certainty is a bit foolish when dealing with this realm of experience. Psychological certainty is another story.

So, to be certain that OBE/AP are something else than some special kind of dream/LD, you can think it, you can be persuaded of it, but for me this is far to be an objective fact.

For me as well.

Take care

Originally Posted by VinceField

They do have a lot in common, more in common than not. I simply stated that there are differences that may hold some significance. I didn't say it was impossible to change the environment during an OBE. I said it can be nearly impossible to change the environment during some OBEs.

Really? Wouldn't changing the environment during an OBE literally change the physical environment? That seems fairly impressive, and to me would be impossible without the presence of some (currently) supernatural ability or energy. After all, an OBE'er would somehow be using his nonphysical form to influence physical reality... from where is he drawing the energy to change the environment? Also, I've never heard of this being done (and have certainly tried, myself, many times); wouldn't reports of changing the environment through OBE's have emerged by now?

I think that, given what we currently know, it probably is impossible to change the environment during an OBE. You could probably feel comfortable sticking to your guns on your original comparison here Vince, as it seems valid.

And Snoop: I can't help thinking that if you switched "OBE" with "LD" throughout this thread, the same questions would be raised. When we are basing the existence of an entire genre of personal experience on nothing more than how we remember it, and memory can be remarkably unreliable, I think we are on some pretty soft ground for proving it as real at all, even to ourselves, much less differentiating an OBE from a LD. [I feel like I just said all this on another thread...] I think an OBE'er (or dreamer, for that matter) would need to first master their own memory before even thinking about differentiating an LD from an OBE.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Really? Wouldn't changing the environment during an OBE literally change the physical environment? That seems fairly impressive, and to me would be impossible without the presence of some (currently) supernatural ability or energy. After all, an OBE'er would somehow be using his nonphysical form to influence physical reality... from where is he drawing the energy to change the environment? Also, I've never heard of this being done (and have certainly tried, myself, many times); wouldn't reports of changing the environment through OBE's have emerged by now?

You are assuming here that the environment experienced during an OBE is the physical environment. Even when the environment closely resembles the physical world, it is probably not the case that the projector is actually operating within the physical dimension. It is actually a rather common experience for the OBE environment (one appearing as a nearly exact replica of the physical world) to change seemingly on its own accord. Considering the plethora of dimensions possible to experience beyond the physical world during an OBE (call it astral projection if you may, I am using these words synonymously), I think it's safe to say that alterations of these nonphysical environments have absolutely nothing to do with the physical dimension.

Kaan
It could be:
Dream is when you are in astral(OBE) but you don't know it, you are surrounded and blinded in the theatre of your imagination
Lucid dream starts, when you know that you are in that theatre...
OBE is when you start to see beyond imagination...

But this would be possible if our brains are only the antennas of our soul. One can get entangled into philosophic aspects of possibilities...

Wow, I'm glad this thread has gotten so much discussion so far, nice.

Originally Posted by VinceField

You are assuming here that the environment experienced during an OBE is the physical environment. Even when the environment closely resembles the physical world, it is probably not the case that the projector is actually operating within the physical dimension. It is actually a rather common experience for the OBE environment (one appearing as a nearly exact replica of the physical world) to change seemingly on its own accord. Considering the plethora of dimensions possible to experience beyond the physical world during an OBE (call it astral projection if you may, I am using these words synonymously), I think it's safe to say that alterations of these nonphysical environments have absolutely nothing to do with the physical dimension.

I definitely have to say, in this case, that you are arguing something entirely different here. I never even considered the fact that an OBE could take place in a dimension separate from the physical plane. That being said, it makes little sense to me for this experience to be called an OBE. I have to ask a question at this point. During OBEs, do you still have some kind of "astral body" or are you merely an observer? If the former, how is this any different from a dream, if it doesn't take place in our physical "dimension"? If the latter, is the absence of a body the sole criterion for an experience to be labeled as one such as out-of-body? If that's the case, I've had plenty of dreams that were OBEs. If that doesn't quite meet the criteria for an OBE, then what additional conditions must be met?

The thing that just left me the most confused was why you would call an experience that doesn't take place in our physical dimension an OBE. An overwhelming majority of OBErs claim that OBE is real, and the only proof they can provide is to observe something that they could never observe given they are lying down in another room. If they go somewhere else, you move into completely unfalsifiable territory, like shared dreaming. We cannot, with our current technology and understanding of the reality we inhabit, possibly hope to prove or disprove a totally subjective experience. There really isn't too much reason trying to argue what something is and isn't at that point.

The thread was created initially to typify that point, but it was also to get those who believe they are indeed having OBEs explaining how they are so certain it is actually and why they believe that to be true. Given the fact you only have your own senses to rely on in such an experience, with no third party to verify what you think you know, then how can you know? And I don't mean to say it is impossible to have an OBE with this statement, it shouldn't be taken that way. It is simply a question of how it is you can actually know what is going on without any technology or tools backing up what you are experiencing. The obvious answer should really be that you can't, but since people are still convinced, I wanted to know why they believed that. So far I have yet to see any answer that shows how you can truly know what you think you know is happening.