opening the third eye or other chakras

This thread is in response to Sageous and his statement that the third eye is a metaphor.

Hi Sageous.

I don't know much about the third eye, partially because I've never thought about it. But in my experience some of the other chakras are a lot more than metaphors. They have specific locations in the body and they do stuff, and I'm not getting this from reading about them anywhere. Ironically, now that I read through the list on wikipedia, the third eye is the only one that I don't experience. So now I'm interested in thinking about that one.

Various 'beyond dreaming' experiences such as we've discussed here are for me connected to the partial opening of some of these centers. The dream experiences started at the same time I started experiencing those more. With retrospect it seems a little strange I never mentioned that here, but I guess it was because it happened gradually, without me paying much attention, and like I said I was never into that kind of 'spirituality'.

Upon further reflection, I should slightly relax my assertion that the centers open by themselves without any help. I guess its natural for efforts or events to precipitate 'opening' when the time is close. But I still think that its not something to yearn for. 'Opening' them doesn't seem to me like an unambiguously good thing. And they don't 'close' again, at least not quickly and without some degree of psychological injury.

I also think that 'opening' and 'closing' isn't a binary thing. They are never more than very partially opened or developed. If any of them were fully developed and open, nobody would be able to handle that. We have enough trouble with the power and sensitivity we have already.

Regards.

I've read that each of the main chakras - the seven ranged up the centerline of the body - turn out to be dense centers of nerve ganglia, such as the now well-known 'heart brain" and "gut brain". So essentially they're sort of inline microprocessors on the nervous system linked to the brain. Also,it sounds like you guys are talking about something different when you say opening and closing them than what I hear about in relation to chakra meditation, or else I just didn't understand well enough (which is likely). From what I understand, you're supposed to open them at the beginning of meditation and close them when you're finishing up. Possibly that's just sort of a visualization technique and really opening and closing them is a very different thing.

mispost. nevermind

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StrbppmsZJw

Well, the way it's presented there, it's the Jungian Individuation process, with a slightly different emphasis. Each chakra deals with eating a different part of your shadow. I remember Jung said it's dangerous for Westerners to practice Yoga (and by Yoga he was referring to Kundalini - the unfurling of the energy snake up the spine along the path of the chakras). I'm not sure why he said that, but I suspect it's because westerners weren't brought up in a deeply spiritual environment and taught this stuff from birth. Also I've heard that in yogic practices they only give half the information to students, and half of it remains hidden until they become initiates and get in deeper.

EDIT - oh, he might also have meant that the complete ego death which is the goal of pure Yoga/Buddhism is not healthy for westerners. I seem to recall he said something along that line, and it makes sense to me. In fact it always seemed to me that that absolute negation is something that's only really for monks and acolytes, not for normal people. I believe the things Jesus intended only for his own apostles were not the same as his advice to normal people who had to live in the worldly world so to speak, and Jesus had a good dose of Buddhism/Yoga in his background. I notice the ancient philosophers also lived like monks, with no possessions aside from a threadbare robe of homespun and a bowl, and Diogenes the Cynic even gave away his bowl when he saw a child drinking water from a stream in his cupped hand. And of course they didn't tell ordinary citizens to throw away all their possessions - that's only for if you wanted to become a philosopher yourself. Sorry I'm all over the place here - the thoughts are coalescing little by little and this is where they're going.

I think that all the 'energy centers' are interrelated, and how a person would experience or describe them could be related to degrees of development connected to the different ones. I think the 'physical' aspect that a person feels or works with during meditation is superficial by itself, and the more important aspect is more emotional or moral. In that sense I agree that they are metaphors, if by metaphor one is trying to refer more to the qualities that aren't felt or located in the body.

I also think that there aren't 7 completely distinct locations or principles, to some degree it is a continuum. Its sort of like how your head can be thought of as being distinct from your neck, but there isn't a perfect line that separates the two.

By 'open' I mean being in contact or communication with nature through that center. By 'nature' I mean something like the mechanisms of karma, which are like the higher worlds or finer states of matter of New Agers. But my experience of that is of course strongly limited by my own lack of development.

In yoga, there is the half of the information that is shared with students, then the 'hidden' part is hidden largely to preserve the dependency between guru and disciple, and to obscure the fact that the yogis don't entirely know what they are talking about. Some westerners imagine that older, foreign religions are pure at the core, and not deeply corrupt like our own cults such as Christian Science or Scientology. But get close enough to anything, with a sincere desire to understand the truth about it, and it starts to look different than it did from afar.

Holy smokes... it's alligned! hahaha.:D:

In my post above, what I had originally posted was the exact avatar video you posted. But I hadn't seen it in years, and didn't have time to rewatch. So I decided I shouldn't risk wasting anybody's time in case I remembered the video different than it actually was.

Interesting video.I saw Avatar as a kid but I didn’t really pay much attention to the chakra parts. I like the lessons from it though. I find myself trying to be at peace with myself, nature , people and the universe around me as well. Of course at times it’s not easy and you sort of wanna flip out but we’re living for a reason and I want to go the path that helps me understand why the things are the way they are and the path of peace. Heh, it’s almost like how Buddha...or I forgot his name, but he was a king/emperor and decided to go on a meditative state or journey to find out why things were the way they are. Also, the video does remind me of the stuff you mentioned about Jung before too. I find it cool cause it helps show that we’re not alone in dealing with the complex situations that we come across and that we can build on each other’s wisdom as well.

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Originally Posted by LighrkVader

Holy smokes... it's alligned! hahaha.:D:

In my post above, what I had originally posted was the exact avatar video you posted. But I hadn't seen it in years, and didn't have time to rewatch. So I decided I shouldn't risk wasting anybody's time in case I remembered the video different than it actually was.

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I reposted it so my reply would make sense :lol: I actually thinks it's quite well done, but I don't know how accurate it is. Though I am not craving onion and banana juice!

Double post. Why does this happen?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

I reposted it so my reply would make sense :lol: I actually thinks it's quite well done, but I don't know how accurate it is. Though I am not craving onion and banana juice!

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Not as fun, but I guess there has to be a natural explanation every once in a while... haha.

As for the accuracy, I don't know much about chakras but I think it's pretty good though of course there are bound to be oversimplifications in a crash course on this kind of topic. The writers were very into and inspired by these topics. And they paid a lot of attention to detail and getting things right I think.. A fun example I remember is that there are specific ways of holding your hands when working on each chakras. These are all shown in the meditation scenes in the clip :)

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Originally Posted by DawnEye11

Interesting video.I saw Avatar as a kid but I didn’t really pay much attention to the chakra parts. I like the lessons from it though. I find myself trying to be at peace with myself, nature , people and the universe around me as well. Of course at times it’s not easy and you sort of wanna flip out but we’re living for a reason and I want to go the path that helps me understand why the things are the way they are and the path of peace. Heh, it’s almost like how Buddha...or I forgot his name, but he was a king/emperor and decided to go on a meditative state or journey to find out why things were the way they are. Also, the video does remind me of the stuff you mentioned about Jung before too. I find it cool cause it helps show that we’re not alone in dealing with the complex situations that we come across and that we can build on each other’s wisdom as well.

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I was about 20 when I saw avatar the first time. And I have seen it two more times since then :oops: I am a sucker for stories with good magic systems. Avatar, HunterXHunter, Mistborn...

For the the rest of what you wrote.. It made me thing about a song. We are what we are, and thats as natural as it gets. Nature doesn't always seem peaceful. Every part of it flips out and goes crazy. But it's ok, because if you zoom out it's all peaceful harmony from a distance. I can't say it better than Bette Midler did in her impressively cheezy 80's pop ballad "from a distance". I'm not gonna force you to listen to that one. But here is a beautiful norwegian folk cover I wish I could force you to listen to(damn near makes me cry). I added the Enligsh Lyrics though I guess hearing it without understanding the words is a very good example of what Bette Midler ment by watching from a distance. :cheeky:
( I have made plans to sneak my way into her concert in a couple of weeks)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQGz0pQrvOk


From a distance the world looks blue and green,
And the snow-capped mountains white.
From a distance the ocean meets the stream,
And the eagle takes to flight.

From a distance, there is harmony,
And it echoes through the land.
It's the voice of hope, it's the voice of peace,
It's the voice of every man.

From a distance we all have enough,
And no one is in need.
And there are no guns, no bombs, and no disease,
No hungry mouths to feed.

From a distance we are instruments
Marching in a common band.
Playing songs of hope, playing songs of peace.
They're the songs of every man.
God is watching us. God is watching us.
God is watching us from a distance.

From a distance you look like my friend,
Even though we are at war.
From a distance I just cannot comprehend
What all this fighting is for.

From a distance there is harmony,
And it echoes through the land.
And it's the hope of hopes, it's the love of loves,
It's the heart of every man.

It's the hope of hopes, it's the love of loves.
This is the song of every man.
And God is watching us, God is watching us,
God is watching us from a distance.
Oh, God is watching us, God is watching.
God is watching us from a distance.

Wow, nice~ I saw avatar reruns but I never ended up rewatching the whole thing. I like how organized it is too. Especially Hunter X Hunter. I wanted to watch it again but knowing what happens next sometimes ruins the excitement for me.^w^ Awww,That does sound similar to what I was saying. The song sounds so beautiful too~ It kind of sounds like something Celine Dion would make.

Oh and the double post problem is supposed be fixed but I do notice at times it doesn’t delete after a few mins. Idk why.

Interesting how this thread left the Third Eye behind pretty quickly...

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

This thread is in response to Sageous and his statement that the third eye is a metaphor.

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I don't know; it seems this is a thread about chakras, about which I said absolutely nothing oin that other thread. To me, the Third Eye and chakras are very different things, with the former being about awareness, and the latter being about energy. Also, again to me, chakra meditation could very well have a foundation in "real things," like exciting specific nerve ganglia, for all the reasons you guys said. So chakras may indeed have a non-metaphoric place in our experience (in addition to a metaphoric one, of course).

In my defense, my caveat on that other thread was not about the mysticism that formed the foundation of Third Eye perspectives; as you know, Shadowofwind, I'm all for mysticism and magical thinking (most of what I've published to date is solidly embedded in magical realism), but not to the point of delusion. If you're going to be mystical, at least focus your attention on the true foundations of a subject, and not the crap that is generated so vigorously on the internet by people who have no idea what they are talking about... aside from some theosophical nonsense created a century ago, most of the stuff about there being an actual third eye locked in our foreheads is pretty recent, and based on some amazingly sparse interpretations of the philosophy backing it mixed with some bizarre enlistment of the pineal gland into the mix -- all of which sounds quite sensible in our current cultural environment of "anything goes" magical thinking.

I guess my point was that there is a great amount of value in opening your Third Eye, but only if that opening is an elevation of perspective described with the third eye metaphor, and not an actual opening or activation of a physical organ in our foreheads, and to pursue the latter instead of the former will lead at least to disappointment, and certainly to the practitioner completely missing the true value of actually opening that metaphoric Third Eye.

Finally, on the other thread, Vagaltone made my point for me far better than I did, so I feel obliged to post his thoughts here:

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

Yep, Sageous is correct. I believe you can understand it Yaya.

The third eye is the perspective of wisdom and intuition, something that sees beyond the veils of beliefs, concepts and indoctrination
It is seeing and being from a more selfless perspective, a new level of mind or consciousness (like being in flow for instance)
This level of mind allows you to see with your eyes, heart and mind - and it can even seem like you are not watching from your physical eyes ( maybe that's why it is called a third eye, but some people referred to it as the single eye too and i prefer this one)

It is not a real eye, but is commonly represent on a physical level for some (perhaps deluded) reason

I am sure you can finds lot of mature spiritual articles corroborating this opinion (besides the deluded and closeminded ones contradicting it)

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The 'third eye' that yaya started the other thread about is one of the chakras. You said that the 'third eye' is actually a metaphor, or 'a perspective of wisdom and intuition'. I'm saying that it is in fact also a chakra. By clarifying that to you 'the third eye and chakras are very different things', you seem to be saying that you're interested in a different, more important subject, also called the third eye. I'm in agreement with you that your other subject is more interesting than the chakra. However, I'm also aware that the chakras have a reality that isn't 'deluded' or 'closeminded'. If you want to discuss or learn more about that, this is what this thread is for. The third eye chakra is interesting to me now, since, as I indicated, its the only one of the seven that I have no awareness of, so maybe I can become more aware of it by exploring in that direction. One way to do that might be exploring the ways in which the third eye chakra is related to the third eye 'perspective of wisdom and intuition' that you know something about. That's a bridge from the chakra to your deeper, more valued subject, as well as a potential way for you to learn more about something that you're not directly aware of presently.

Sorry about the derailing. Though it's not as bad as it seems. I realize now that I should have specified it, but the association that led me to post that song came largely from the same view on the third eye that VagalTone explained.

The third eye watches from a distance with the perspective of wisdom and intuition, something that sees beyond the veils of beliefs, concepts and indoctrination... (I don't see it as being closed in some and open in others though.. )

Or something along those lines is how I interprate the song anyway. But how each person would describe something like the "third eye's view"(bleh..) depends entirely on their relationship to different concepts, indoctrinations, beliefs etc. So we say it can't be put into words and instead use the sound of a gong to describe it... or the smell of a fart... or a mural in a mosque... or a song in a language you don't understand...

This is why the best thing to bring back home from your spritual journey is the mastery of an artform. If you want to make someone "see with their third eye", don't try and tell them about it, share your soul with them through art. (Note that mastering the art of words is an option, in which case talking about it makes sense)

LightrkVader,

My last post was entirely in response to Sageous, in case that wasn't clear.

As I see it, different people all bring different things to the table. If your thing is art, I think that's great. I disagree though that mastery of an artform is in general the "best thing" to bring back home from a spiritual journey. It may be the best thing for you. If we respect that other people have different strengths or callings, then we can learn some and change some because of each other. But if we start thinking that only our way is the only way that has much value, then we get bogged down once we've taken that as far as it can go by itself. One sees this with forum discussions, where people just talk past each other, and no longer grow through that medium at all.

Double post, and I know I only clicked once.

Edit: And now its gone again.

:uhm: Man how do I...

Consider the post with the song and my previous one a failed attempt at a quick shoutout to the power of art as a means of sharing the metaphorical "third eye view" that kept being brought up. That was the intention... but since I am no master of words I tricked myself into a frustrating position. By attempting to clear up what I meant and bring the thread I derailed back to chakras, I instead end up keeping it on the very topic I don't see any value in me talking about.

I've left a lot of room open for misunderstanding. It was lazy. And so I can see why you would underestimate me.

I don't always clarify the humility of my statements because it is completely obvious to me that I don't know shit. So I forget that I can come off as a blowhard, especially when I try to explain something complex in a few sentences. But yeah... I absolutely try to avoid pride in understandings. Spiritual pride leads to delusion, limits, trouble and poor decisions.............. imo....

I would most off all like to return to chakras, because mastery of an art/discipline it is needed to effectively share with others the thing that we metaphorically call "third eye view" in this thread. It's not something we can understand.

Before I saw your last comment I realized that I had forgotten to state my relationship to the chakra part and added an edit to my previous comment. But I'll put it down here in stead:

Edit: Based on personal experience I am absolutely down with the the third eye not only being a metaphor but also a center of relevance in meditation. I have had very special experiences, but I know quite very little because so far it has not been my style to spend much time practicing and studying the more conceptual, symbolic and dissective sides of spirituality. I like it simple. So as far as I'm concerned the brain is a symbol.

Not saying my way is the right way. It's just what I like right now. And I am sure there are treasures to be found for those who go the other way :)


Actual Edit: for double posting. I suspect the trick is to leave both comments alone, wait for a while and refresh the page. Seems like the site removes identical comments. But if you edit one of them both stay.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

The 'third eye' that yaya started the other thread about is one of the chakras. You said that the 'third eye' is actually a metaphor, or 'a perspective of wisdom and intuition'. I'm saying that it is in fact also a chakra. By clarifying that to you 'the third eye and chakras are very different things', you seem to be saying that you're interested in a different, more important subject, also called the third eye. I'm in agreement with you that your other subject is more interesting than the chakra. However, I'm also aware that the chakras have a reality that isn't 'deluded' or 'closeminded'. If you want to discuss or learn more about that, this is what this thread is for. The third eye chakra is interesting to me now, since, as I indicated, its the only one of the seven that I have no awareness of, so maybe I can become more aware of it by exploring in that direction. One way to do that might be exploring the ways in which the third eye chakra is related to the third eye 'perspective of wisdom and intuition' that you know something about. That's a bridge from the chakra to your deeper, more valued subject, as well as a potential way for you to learn more about something that you're not directly aware of presently.

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That was a solid summary of my thoughts and, hopefully not unfortunately, the parting of our ways on this subject. But still:

I don't remember if there is a name for it, but a forehead chakra (I think there's also a top of the head chakra; not sure if that matters here) that perhaps yields a gateway to a third eye perspective is indeed a fascinating idea. I don't see opening such a a chakra as a shortcut to opening a Third Eye in terms of perspective, experience, presence in the moment/world, and sense of Self, but I can see it as a valid tool in the process, once your head is in a place to process such a process (now there's a sentence I'll never get back). So, though chakras and Third Eye to me are very different subjects, perhaps there is a connection after all!

In defense of what I was saying earlier, though, you might ask yourself why a third eye chakra is the only one of the seven that of which you have no awareness; given your knowledge of such things, this ignorance could carry some significance in itself: you may have been unaware of a third eye chakra because such a chakra fails conceptually to fit in with the general nature of chakras (a nature, in my opinion, centered in energy and not in awareness)... your experience with chakras might be correct, with a third eye chakra being an appendix of sorts that never was included in the original lexicon of chakras.

All this said, I really have no problem with considering a third eye chakra as a tool for (eventually, in concert with many other things) opening a Third Eye perspective. So I'll definitely follow (and contribute, if possible) this thread in the hope that such a correlation is described or discovered.

:idea2:Lighrk, I don't think it was a failed attempt. We were taking the topic to a somewhat different direction I guess, sorry about that, but it was connected to the main topic.

So here's something of my experience of chakras, using the names from the picture on the wikipedia page, which I haven't read. I expect this to be all rather subjective and thin on intellectual substance, since I'm just thinking about what I feel, and only have a few minutes to reflect.

1. Crown: If I think about this one,the feeling in the back of my head and spine sort of lines up and flows up and down. There's also a feeling of levity, as if by willing it I could float, though I am not actually floating. What principles this is related to or what function it has I don't know off hand.

2. 3rd Eye: I feel nothing here, maybe because there are no 'touch' kind of nerves in that area, so I can't feel it like the others. I'll come back to this.

3. Throat: Related to expression or communication. This is an important one for me, maybe a problem for me. If I don't attempt to express my thought, things don't really flow in relation to my intellectual muse, and I don't really feel alive, or connected to my identity. How that is connected to my throat I don't know, but feeling is heightened at that location when I think about this, and my sense of who I am becomes stronger.

4. Heart: I guess everyone feels this one, and what its related to. In a sense its the center of a person, and the most important part of a person.

5. Solar: This one I feel, but I don't know how to describe what it means. For me it has to do with relationships with others, but not expression or communication. Its like a feminine counterpart of the heart, more receptive and closer to nature.

5 1/2. I would have expected there to be another chakra about halfway between the naval and the sex organs, but there isn't one in the picture. This unnamed chakra has to do with desire, somewhat at the level of instinct. If there was any 'opening' of chakras in me, this might have been the first one. So I'm already off the rails in relation to chakras, I have '7' but they're not in the right places.

6. Sacral: This would have to do with physical expression of desire in relation to the earth. All of the other chakras are about that also, in the sense that they're 'physical' or in the body, but this is symbolically the center as far as physical interaction goes. Its as if the whole body is a metaphor for many layers of being or expressing, and a person can get intuitions about different subjects related to identity in part by thinking about corresponding parts of the body.

7. Root: This seems to be like the sacral one, but has more to do with feeling or receptivity and less to do with expression of desire. In that sense its relation to the sacral center is analogous to the relation of the solar center to the heart. I feel the earth pull on me through this center, as if the earth wants stuff to happen. This is very much like how creation pulls on our spirits and makes karma, it is as if I can feel that happening. In that sense its like the opposite end of the crown chakra, which is what connects me to heaven. But we're also connected to both heaven and earth through all of these principles and centers, in somewhat different ways. I think without the root chakra I wouldn't be able to feel any of the others.

One thing I feel about myself, rightly or wrongly, is like an opening between myself and an underworld. Its as if I'm a deep well, and I can feel or express what the spirits in that subterranean world would express. I guess everyone is like this, but that most people wouldn't experience it in quite this way. All of these 'energy centers' are like that, they connect me to nature in various ways, but also to an unseen spiritual world.

So going back to the 'third eye' again, this is different from the rest because there's no feeling there. I think with feeling, but metaphorically that feeling is all connected with other parts of the body, and I don't seem to feel at that level. I can feel the weight of my personality on my face, and in a different way on my chest. But its as if there is no feeling in the principle of thought, even though feeling is the principal way I think.

Maybe what I'm getting at is there's feeling in thought, but there's no sensation in that feeling. Its like its there but there's nothing lighting it up. Everything else is on the outside, or connects me to something else.

OK, if I make associations with this 'third eye' area, fear is something I feel that's connected to that and not to any of the others. Violence is connected to many of the others in different ways, but fear would be at this other level, or the kind of fear I experience anyway. This area would also be connected to my experience of my 'muse', which is like fate or my angel of destiny. I guess to the extent that there's a design or a plan and I'm aware of it, that would be connected most directly to this area. My awareness of evil would be closest to this area. There's a lot that's screwed up about all the other areas, but the rest of it is more like a collection of injuries or an animal condition. Anger for example seems to be more downstream from the evil, not at the root of it.

That was all quite incoherent, but I guess I'll stop there.

Sorry I didn't answer you LighrkVader, I'll get back to you, these other thoughts were already in the queue and I haven't had time to process what you said. This next week is quite busy for me, but I'll get back to it later.

LighrkVader - man, how I stumble over that name!! I had no clue how to pronounce it, and without a name that can be pronounced a person on a forum like this is almost a non-entity. So I'm pronouncing it LurkVader. And the way I see it, we did take the thread on a slight detour, but that was before Sageous showed up, and that ran its course before he even found the thread, so when he did he was free to direct it in whatever way he wanted, as he has.

shadowofwind - Thanks for providing that summary of your experiences of the chakras. Very similar to mine but I have trouble with the heart, solar plexus and sacral chakras - meaning as you say about the third eye, that I don't really get any (or much) sensation there. I find I can get sensation in the heart chakra but usually I need to provide some kind of external stimulation or impetus. For instance, the first time I did feel something there was because suddenly birds started singing just outside my window and it kick-started the sensation in the heart area. I also find that sometimes I'm concentrating too much on the physical heart itself rather than the energy center on the centerline of the body, and if I try too hard - I suppose trying to 'force it' - I can instead cause something like an adrenaline surge but in the heart. Some kind of hormone or physical reaction that is unpleasant and unwanted. Then I remind myself it's not the physical heart I'm supposed to be concentrating on. Sometimes now I can feel what I think I'm supposed to be feeling, which is a very pleasant sort of vibration or a spreading warmth - both I suppose, from the center of the chest. I also have found I can jump-start it by thinking about things I'm grateful for or that I love. Makes sense.

Some time ago I also found a way to stimulate the solar plexus chakra, but just now I don't remember how I did it. It was in relation to a book I was reading - I'd need to go back and look at the book again or maybe I wrote about it in my journal and could find it. In fact I'm sure I did - it's the finding part that could be a problem. That was several volumes back.

For me the third eye is very strong - I immediately get a very powerful sensation there, like a sort of pressure or tightness or something, and a sense of expansion form inside the brain or the mind. And it feels like something is definitely happening there. Although, similar to my doing something to the actual physical heart rather than the chakra, I sometimes find I'm actually crossing my real eyes. I sometimes have to deliberately stop myself doing that.

I'm interested in what you said in your first response to me about a moral effort to open the chakras. I suspect the meaning of that is what the video was about - facing your fears, your guilt, your fear of loss etc. And this is why I said it's just like Jungian Individuation. Of course Jung studied all the ancient religions and spiritual systems and tested what he thought might actually work on patients, and he ended up with a sort of core that runs through all spiritual systems and religions with the dogmas and external stuff stripped away. In order to individuate, the process is to face your fears and all those other things I mentioned. You also pay attention to your dreams and analyze them, and write about the thoughts you experience, especially those that seem important or that might help to reveal fears or problems in your life that need attention.

This also aligns with Stoicism, which I've been practicing for several years now. Not really a spiritual system, but it shares a lot in common with Buddhism and several other Eastern spiritual systems. I've realized recently that a lot of ancient wisdom is very similar form one area to another, though some of it is considered spiritual and some practical or philosophical, such as Stoicism. Until seeing the Avatar video that LighrkVader posted, I had never heard of opening the chakras through any kind of moral struggle, and didn't realize the similarities with both Stoicism and Jungian individuation, but now it's clear to me.

Just a very brief explanation of the tents of Stoicism:
Basically you separate the world into 2 categories - things you can control and things you can't. Essentially the category of things you can control comes down to your own thoughts, your attention, and your reactions to circumstances, meaning your emotions. You can't directly control your emotions, but you can direct which ones you;ll experience and to what degree by what you choose to focus on. The classic example always given is if you're an adolescent boy and planned to play baseball on Thursday, but it rains. You can either focus on the loss and experience some mix of anger, despair, and other negative emotions that serve no purpose, or you can instead say "Well, it's raining, can't play ball today - instead this gives me time to catch up on my reading" or something else positive and productive. Basically the entire Stoic concept is encapsulated in the Serenity Prayer, which also is the mantra of Alcoholics Anonymous (recovering alcoholics, among many other people, need something like Stoicism): "Lord grant me the courage to change what I can, the serenity to accept what I cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference".

EDIT - forgot to mention a couple quick items.

I've seen charts that do place the sacral chakra where you said - midway between the belly button and the sex organs. Also, one aspect of the solar plexus chakra is it houses the Will - aka determination or strength of character.

LighrkVader,

I think your comment about art was fine. My comment was based on a lot of past experience with people who spend all of their time dismissing other people's offerings. But that has nothing directly related to you, and there's no nice balance between overly sweeping language and overly qualified language, it obstructs communication no matter where you draw the line.

One thing that interests me about art is that rare individuals have talent that far, far exceeds what appears plausible in terms of natural selection. It as if its a vestige of a more magical world than ours. I think that about telepathy also, its so very weak in our world, but not non-existent, which makes me think it must be a lot stronger somewhere.

I agree with you that in a better world all people would be artists, its unnatural the way most of us are merely consumers of art. Of course, there is art in everything we do, but the art of someone like Bach is at a different level.

Thinking about it more, the 'third eye' doesn't seem to me to be entirely different from what we call 'the mind'. But I guess the description by Darkmatters is fairly distinct from that.

In any case, for myself I'm still of the opinion that intentionally 'opening' any of this through meditation isn't a good idea. Its like intentionally diving into a maelstrom. We want to live, and its true that more 'open' generally feels more 'alive'. But as with a lot of other things, more compelling experiences often change a person in a way that makes deeper experiences more difficult. And to use a metaphor from Sageous, having a really shiny bucket doesn't show you much about what is in the bucket.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Thinking about it more, the 'third eye' doesn't seem to me to be entirely different from what we call 'the mind'. But I guess the description by Darkmatters is fairly distinct from that.

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I didn't really give a description of the third eye, just explained what it feels like to me when I try to open it in meditation. As I understand the third eye is supposed to be about telepathy, intuition and spiritual vision or spiritual connectedness. Something like that anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

In any case, for myself I'm still of the opinion that intentionally 'opening' any of this through meditation isn't a good idea. Its like intentionally diving into a maelstrom. We want to live, and its true that more 'open' generally feels more 'alive'. But as with a lot of other things, more compelling experiences often change a person in a way that makes deeper experiences more difficult. And to use a metaphor from Sageous, having a really shiny bucket doesn't show you much about what is in the bucket.

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Ok, that does make sense. I suppose chakra meditation, which I think I've heard also called chakra cleansing or purifying (unless I'm mistaking it for something else?) is sort of like washing and waxing your car, when it's much more important to get under the hood and repair what's broken and keep things well tuned. At least that goes with what Sageous said about polishing the bucket. I now see you said it's more like diving into a maelstrom. Hmm, that's a little different from what I thought you meant. I can see I don't understand what we're really talking about very well yet. From Sageous' metaphor it sounded like chakra meditation is sort of superfluous and silly, but yours makes it sound dangerous and like something a person shouldn't do unprepared. Since reading this yesterday I've been thinking about Sageous' metaphor. Now I'm confused again.

But it doesn't really have a lot of relevance to me personally - it's been a while since I've done any chakra meditation. I used to do it largely for something to concentrate on while meditating because otherwise I would get sleepy after a short while. Mostly though I'm curious about what you said about a moral effort. I was hoping you would either confirm or deny what I guessed earlier - that you were referring to the things presented in the video posted by LighrkVader (and then reposted by me). Meaning specifically that to develop the chakras (whatever it is they represent) you need to develop your own courage, honesty, etc. But I'm beginning to feel pretty confident I was right - otherwise I suppose you would have said something. Also it does fit, considering what I've been learning lately - that most if not all of the spiritual teachings and religions at their core are all revealing the same truths, and they're also the ones re-discovered by Carl Jung and in some sense presented also in other psychologies (though it's mostly just Jung who deals with the Soul, creativity, introversion, and the inner world - much of the rest of psychology seems to be very reductive and materialistic).

I realized recently as well that psychotherapists in some sense do exactly what religious teachers and gurus etc all do - they tend to give exasperatingly vague responses that essentially are saying the questioner needs to find the answers within themselves, and the gurus are only there to help guide loosely. For the most part anyway, but occasionally they can help with something more concrete. One big difference I think though is that from ancient times the advice was concerned with developing coherent and consistent character virtues - honesty, integrity, courage, kindness etc, while modern therapy (much of it) is more materialist and less about developing the whole self through moral practices. Ok, to be more fair, I think much of modern therapy does involve moral development.

I need to go back and watch the video again - make a list of the various chakras and what they represent, or what virtues need to be developed in order to open them. It's very similar to what Jung said about basically developing the character virtues and trying to dissolve (or solve) your character flaws (my own wording, but I think it encapsulates his concept). But the chakra versions seem to be broken down into individual virtues, which is interesting. I think my answers are largely contained in the video - and possibly I could learn more by exercising some Google-fu. Shadowofwind, if you have any more to say on the subject I would be very grateful.

I'll try and get back to this thread tomorrow. Right now I am working my ass off trying to get ready for my presentation on the biological third eye (parietal eye and pineal gland) tomorrow morning. Wish me luck!:panic:

Good Luck!! :cheers:

Darkmatters,

I think that silly and dangerous aren’t entirely mutually exclusive. Use of strong narcotics in pursuit of wisdom would be an example.

I just can't reconcile silly and maelstrom - to me there's no connection there. I feel like, almost by definition, as soon as something becomes dangerous it can no longer be called silly. But that's just semantics really - I think I understand the point you were making - that it's not a good idea to do chakra meditation where you visualize and feel the opening of each chakra, but instead you must actually make the moral effort of overcoming the various fears. I've now re-watched the video and taken notes. And as I already mentioned, I have made good progress on facing certain of my fears - time to start work on the others in the video.

Maelstrom was not an ideal choice of word.

My opinion is that most of our fears are learned reactions to genuine dangers. Of course, fear can be exaggerated or misplaced, and sometimes things that are feared for good reason are still worth facing.

Suppose you could fully feel the life experience of the animals you eat, or that you could fully emotionally grasp the whole nature of what it means to eat something, independent of what the animal was capable of experiencing. Would that be a good thing? Generally speaking, I don't think so, not right now for most people.

Suppose that for everything unhealthy you might be tempted to do but aren't, you knew exactly what the initial moment would feel like, as if you had done it before. Would that be good? I think this would be a disaster, we would quickly destroy ourselves. Often we can resist temptation when we know more of the depth of what something really is, when we see beyond surface appearances. Then it doesn't pull on us. But I don't think that kind of patience of perspective is quickly acquired at will. As we slowly gain that depth, our chakras also develop, I think. But if we open them more quickly through meditative practice, I don't think that helps very much with the depth, and we further a destructive imbalance.

I think that the time that it takes for significant development is very long. We go through something like reincarnation, or we inherit karma from others. Within our lives we have some choice about what we do and whether we improve, but we can't go very far outside of the place that circumstance allows for us. We're like monkeys trying to master the universe. Its a worthy struggle, but its counterproductive if we wildly misunderstand what's within reach or how to attain it. In that sense I think all religions are wrong. They're all useful, but also oversell themselves, and pretend that they answer more or deliver more than they do.

To me the most important thing is to live and learn and try to do the things we perceive to be right. If we hide from our honest perceptions because they don't tell us what we want, then we lose ourselves. But its a process of putting one foot in front of the other. There are many things we need to know that if we saw them now we would not understand anyway. Its like being a child, and growing up, and having the space we need to not grow up too fast.

Ok, that makes sense. And I agree that progress needs to be slow - I think it almost can't help but be slow. Assuming it's something that does take time - you're not going to be able to build a city overnight - even trying would just be impossible. More than that, I believe it takes a deliberate progression - a regular or nearly daily habit, like exercise. Work hard at it on a regular basis and make slow gradual progress that you can't really see except in hindsight - example, after working out for months and constantly thinking you're not getting anywhere you see a picture of yourself from just before you started and realize you actually have made progress, just so slowly that you didn't notice. And with exercise anyway, the progress isn't linear at all - it comes in fits and starts - long dry stretches punctuated by what seem like almost sudden leaps forward. But still it only happens if you commit yourself to a regular program and don't fall off of it.

That's how I did it for exercise and nutrition, starting about 2 and 1/2 years ago, and that's how I did it with stoicism starting 3 years ago. Little did I realize I was also working on my chakras - I didn't find that out until just a few days ago. Or that I was also working toward individuation. But as it turns out, they're all essentially the same thing. I suppose if you work on the character virtues, then you'll find you're accomplishing many different things - or rather that there are many different names for them in different traditions. The methods for self development are the same in all of them, only the names have been changed.

I did write down all the various chakras and what is required to open them, and stoicism really does seem to cover all the bases. Not saying I'm all the way there, but I've already made significant progress - life changing progress actually, in the last 3 years.

Darkmatter, as an Alan Watts fanboy I almost have to ask if you've heard Alan Watts lecture on Jungs Shadow? I haven't spent too much time on Jung so far, but that lecture is one of my all time favourites.

Edit: Meant to put this in the Jung Thread. But whatever.

I've skimmed this thread and I'm not here to contribute anything of value except to expound on the sentiment of Hunter x Hunter and Mistborn being awesome.

Some brief on-topic musings: I'm fairly new to these concepts in a formal sense (and I'm trying to limit my formal understanding, hence the skimming, sorry T_T). I ended up doing things in a practical setting for the sake of other pursuits and now recently finding out that these centers of focus I had been feeling/working with in meditations, in my day to day, etc matched up in number, location, and function to these "chakras". Still feels weird saying it.

Pineal gland and literal third eye stuff is almost certainly nonsense. Everything else? My experience seems to suggest there's something to it. But I'm hesitant to accept and adhere to ancient belief systems just because they're old and "this is the way things have been done for centuries". I figure, if someone figured this stuff out once with minimal/no guidance, I can do the same.

:D Good taste!

I got the results for my presentation on the subject back today! It went very well. And the professor appreciated that I took a different approach to the subject, which was adaptations :)

I'm probably just misunderstanding what part of it all you mean is nonsense. But the litteral third eye and the pineal glands connection to it is quite certainly not nonsense in the bio-scientific sense. Now... I haven't really spent any time or energy trying to draw lines between, and make assumptions on the spiritual side of things based on scientific articles. But there could be connections

Interestingly mysticism surrounding the pineal gland started long before we realized it is connected it to the parietal eye. An example woul be that Renè Decartes (who was no doubt quite a thinker in his time) thought it to be the place where the soul interacted with the material world. :holycrap:

There's also lots of stuff about egyptians and the pineal gland but I'm not gonna recite that. Any idiot can find support for his claims by smoking a bowl and looking at hieroglyphs for a few hours:rolllaugh: (Ancient Egypt is a whole other level of trippy I haven't dared getting into yet)

BUT! There IS a third eye in your head. It's called a pineal gland and it is no longer photoreceptive in mammals. But it used to be! Birds still have photoreceptive pineal glands in their skulls where as lizards and some other species have their pineal gland directly attached to a primitive eye on the top of their skull. So technically their pineal gland is also photoreceptive.

Now then... do we know enough about how the brain works to say "it is very unlikely that our pineal gland could be central to consciousness in more ways than regulating cyclic patterns by means of secreting melatonin"? No we don't, not in any epistemologically sound sense anyway.... I'll give a short explanation of why. But this is a subject that requires a very long text followed by several longer replies to clear up misunderstandings. I have done that before, but I have exams coming up and I am waaaayyyyy behind on my math:panic:

Our spiritual paradigm is as every paradigm before it an overreaction to the paradigm it toppled. In the name of a non-religious world we have developed a religious overconfidence in our understanding of consciousness described by the brain. This is part of a greater religion, called scientism by some. It's existance depends, among other things, upon a lack of education in the inherent limitations and requirements of the scientific method of aquiring certain knowledge. An example of a requirement that is not fullfilled in a lot of psychological studies would be the requirement of isolation. This is a huge problem and it is only one of many.

Then... because of the way science uses previous scientific findings(or god forbid vague implications of scientific findings) as certain premises in it's logic, the uncertainty introduced by sciencing stuff that can't be scienced properly is not limited to one experiment, rather it is accumulative.

So you are left with people religiously basing their world views on the vague implications of half-science, that again was based on a long line of results and implications generated by other half-scientific experiments. It's not as certain as people think. From an epistemological stand point a lot of scientific common sense is as full of holes as any theory I could come up with from the comfort of my favourite chair.

And the problem isn't that they do it or believe in it. Thats fine. The problem is that they do it with the same vigorous, unquestioning, self limiting certainty of someone saying:

"It's in the Bible. So it's the truth.... No, I can't read... but the priest said it. And he read the Bible!"
"It's science, so it's the truth... No, I'm not qualified to evaluate the results... but it was in the news paper, they know everything!"

Thats what I mean by religious. And religion is fine, great even... if you're willing to call it what it is.

The paradigm pendulum might already be starting to swing the other way though, and sooner or later we will have an overly spiritual or magical period, probably largely inspired by the eastern traditions. I am under the impression that Sageous thinks it is happening, though I won't speak for him. I suspect we are only observing minor oscillations rippling along the lower frequency. Every single oscillation is as far as I am concerned an evolution. Everybody sees the benefits of science so the next swing of the paradigm pendulum will bring that with it and be closer to the center than the previous swing. And by trial and error we are possibly working our way towards what would be called an ESS in game theory.

Back to the pineal gland. What we can say for sure is this: The pineal gland is deeply connected to some of the least understood parts of conscious beings.


Edit: Please don't make too many assumptions on my standpoints based on this short text there are many things I would love to expand on if I wasn't so busy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4vHnM8WPvU

Nonsense in the sense that you can literally open it through some spiritual means.

Beyond that, from a biological standpoint, we can't say much too much more about it than that it's evolutionary cruft that seems to have more utility and function than our appendix.

Any other assertion is just speculation and attributions of importance seem unwarranted and superfluous to me.

Again, I'm just here cause Brandon Sanderson is the GOAT and Oathbringer is amazing so far.

I agree with you mostly...

I really shouldn't nitpick like this....Buuuuuuuuuuut.... I wouldn't call it cruft... the new version evolved to be the way it is because it provided an advantage that was larger than that of it's previous version... The pineal gland is absolutely essential to survival and we can also be quite certain that it's essential to reproduction by timing seasonal mating behaviour.

You could say the wings of bats are cruft from front legs of mammals... but it doesn't make sense. A bat without wings would make a shitty bat.

Edit: I was just powdering my nose... when I finished I sat down to take a shit and I came to to think of the appendix... And I think it's quite likely that the appendix has some important function as well. Seeing as it is a major source of fatality it would likely have dissapeared from the gene pool if it wasn't of use. There are several ways I could be wrong here... but yeah.

Back to books :lol: I haven't gotten around to reading anything else by him yet actually... But I am always looking for good fiction.

Where would you start?

^^ Wait, what?

I thought you were telling us that the pineal gland had an important, as yet undiscovered role in human perception, perhaps even of a (currently) supernatural or mystical (aka, Third Eye) sort? Or are you saying that humans have a seasonal mating behavior? I'm assuming that I misunderstood you, but if not, does the fact that a pineal gland still has a role in, say, an iguana's perception really point to it having any perceptual role in humans (much less a mystical one)?

Perhaps the appendix has a mystical value as well; maybe it is meant to explode in people who should not be alive! Just kidding, of course...But I do think the hair on my toes and my annoying wisdom tooth might want to offer a word about DNA not necessarily removing every obsolete feature from our programs on a timely basis.

Also:

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Originally Posted by LighrkVader

The paradigm pendulum might already be starting to swing the other way though, and sooner or later we will have an overly spiritual or magical period, probably largely inspired by the eastern traditions. I am under the impression that Sageous thinks it is happening, though I won't speak for him.

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Yep, your impression was just fine; the ship of reason, loaded with its cargo of Truth, has not only left our shores but is already just a speck on the horizon at this point, and sailing away fast... and nobody seems to care, at least in the U.S.

Where I might disagree is in that bit about Eastern traditions; I doubt very much of our current courtship with irrationality is based on anything other than our own personal (and occasional collective) fantasies.

Haha. Oh no... I really need to get better at getting my opinions across. I'm always getting misunderstood:chuckle:

Trust I would never try to convince somebody of something like that. But when it comes to whats real, I will entertain almost any possibility. Not because I believe in it... just for the sake of fun, funny thoughts, images and implications...often interesting perspectives that can be applied to other topics and evolving my mind. I am no longer obsessed with trying to expand my understanding of the universe by setting down new schemas.. I want to evolve and have fun.

Sounds cheezy but I subscribe to this quote about the mind: "when it's open it grows". Thats my style, I enjoy it a lot, so I like to share it... or try to.... it obviously makes me come of as an idiot some times hahahaha.

I really haven't come across any especially good reason to think the pineal gland is anything more than a gland. So if for some reason somebody put me in a chair and told me I had to decide on the nature of the pineal gland my reply would be just that... "it's just a gland"... Same thing with the dreaming plants.

Luckily I don't have to choose! haha. I don't need a belief or set understanding. What use is that to me? I can keep an open mind and it will have no negative effect on my life what so ever..I think :paranoid:

Time will tell whats real. And I'm not going anywhere. Not in a hurry. If plants do dream I will have a first hand experience of that at some point. That's based in a belief that I have and stand by. I am eternal.

Science is great. But in certain fields it is by it's very nature not able to produce results with the level of epistemological strength that I personally require before I make something a part of my belief system. That doesn't mean I dismiss those results... I just add them to my pool of possibilities where they mix and blend creating funny new ideas.. And I can go sailing around my little pond of mind looking at all the different combinations.

Another thing is that if my beliefs and expectations have the power to limit and shape my reality like they do in dreams I wouldn't want to filter out all the mysterious magical stuff by deciding that it can't be real... I love mystery and weirdness... My life is trippy as hell, but I can handle it and I want more. I am pretty sure you do to if I remember correctly.

Edit:

1:When I talk about the pineal gland I don't really focus on humans. Its there in almost all vertebrates. So thats why the season mating behaviour comes from.
2: I have read my fair share on genetics and evolution. Thats is why put the disclaimer about how my appendix hypothesis could be wrong in several ways in there:wink:.

^^ Cool. Thanks for the clarification, and I am glad I misunderstood!

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Originally Posted by LighrkVader

I subscribe to this quote about the mind: "when it's open it grows".

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My favorite quote on the subject: "A mind is like a parachute. Sometimes you need it open, but try walking around with it dragging behind you all the time. Those sudden gusts of wind are a killer!" ~ Me.

My other favorite: "He has a mind like a steel trap. At the first sign of a new idea it snaps shut and anybody nearby is liable to get hurt." ~ Also me.

Last night while sleeping I gouged a vertical strip of skin from in the center of my forehead with my fingernail. Its deep enough that it will take weeks to heal. This is the third time I've done this. The previous time was 16 months ago. I can't think of any other examples of me doing something crazy like this. The last two times I was lucid when it happened, and there wasn't any emotional content, thought, or anxiety, the impetus was from somewhere deeper than that level. Am I trying to scratch open my third eye or scratch it out? [Edit: There was negative emotion the second time, but not the third time.]

(Technically I can think of other examples of this kind of 'crazy' in the sense that all karma is in some deep sense self-inflicted, and is not all 'positive' or understood. Many years ago I involuntarily flicked my hand hard enough to somehow fling a snugly fit ring off. But in that case the reason became clear shortly afterwards. My forehead gouge stands apart in that it was clearly deliberate and I still have no idea why I did it.)

Hi Mzzkc, it has been a long time.

I think that reading about chakras doesn't carry much risk of idea contamination. Everyone is psychically exposed to those ideas whether they're aware of it or not. Even when someone thinks they're discovering something for themselves, often they're tapping into existing dogma. The fact that they've seemed to discover it independently may be evidence that they're subconsciously psychic, but doesn't validate that the ideas and experiences themselves aren't delusional. When we read about something, at least its more out in the open. And we both already know anything we read about religious or paranormal stuff is at least three quarters bullshit, so we won't get duped by it the way we could otherwise.

I also think that its possible for existing theologies to contain insights that are beyond what we're capable of reaching independently, even if the people who built those theologies are not more intelligent or insightful than we are. Using math as an analogy, a gifted person could come up with arithmetic and aspects of algebra or calculus from scratch by themselves. But no genius could make any headway on more advanced topics without first studying the work of others. There's too much, much too much involved for one person to work through in a single life. Other subjects in science and engineering are like this now also.

Meditation isn't math, and I take a back-seat to no one in my contempt for all mainstream and 'alternative' religious dogmas. I find it amazing how intellectually corrupt it all is, and how incapable people seem to be of thinking honestly and for themselves. But realistically, I think we're still indebted to others who lived before we did, even if we've rightly rejected the largest part of their beliefs.

In my observation, a characteristic of most philosophically inclined people is they underestimate the amount of rigor required to arrive at definite knowledge. In raja yoga, we're supposed to be able to know truth just by focusing our inner light on it. And yet, everyone I've read about or encountered who believes this embraces many ridiculous falsehoods which they are convinced are 'true' because their inner light seems to tell them so. I think that acquiring inner knowledge requires more time, rigor, communication, and 'outward' experience than has generally been appreciated.

In any case, if your point was more that thinking about chakras and writing about it isn't of value for you, I won't argue at all with that.

One other note....I know nothing at all about the pineal gland, and have not read about it. But if its true as suggested in this thread that it has something to do with reproductive instinct, then I think it must have something to do with religious discovery also. To me these are clearly linked in a fairly deep way. I'm not suggesting that a person can accomplish anything useful by trying to 'stimulate their pineal gland', or whatever silly things people might try to do with it. This sort of thing strikes me as being kind of like trying to acquire knowledge by beating oneself in the head with a book. But spiritual and physical regeneration are in my mind connected to the same desire or instinct, understood and directed in a very different way. And I would expect that some stages of spiritual progress would have physical implications also. Our minds aren't wholly independent from our brains and our bodies. In my experience everything fits together like a big puzzle. Of course it is possible to draw foolish conclusions when speculating about how everything fits together. And of course people do a lot of that, the New Age sections of the world's (remaining) bookstores are full of that. But as I see it those those interrelationships are still there anyway, even though we're mostly unable to recognize and understand them.

Quite a long time, indeed. You are quite right: it's more or less impossible to avoid inadvertent information bleed on these topics. I managed to avoid most finer details until recently, though I wouldn't be surprised if I came across things in passing over the years. Of course that said, it's important to me, as I experiment, that I minimize schematic contamination. This way when I find results, verifying them against outside sources and/or prior works and seeing where my discoveries differ, and how, becomes that much more of a useful exercise.

Now, it's been suggested to me that I take the time and energy formally teach myself this, and related pursuits. Actually, a big part of my return to DV was mining it for what small truths I could... So I'm thinking maybe I've got some reading to do, after all

Still doubt I'll have much of anything to contribute. Y'all seem to have discussed this topic much more thoroughly than I could hope to match. But if you're insisting I steal some insight from here... =P

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

And yet, everyone I've read about or encountered who believes this embraces many ridiculous falsehoods which they are convinced are 'true' because their inner light seems to tell them so. I think that acquiring inner knowledge requires more time, rigor, communication, and 'outward' experience than has generally been appreciated.
.

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I like the inner knowledge, inner light, faith stuff. But it gets problematic when you try to use it and judge it in terms of the common causal, disective, investigative, explanation-based means of aquiring knowledge. There really is no compatibility between what you are trying to explain/understand and the way you are going about it.... If somebody told you to look around the room and describe it, would you clench your teeth and start moving your eyes super quickly to focus your attention on all the objects and lines in the room? No!. you use your periferal vision. Different means for different ends.

And so you make it a lot harder than it has to be.

It's actually very simple: Trying to understand the universe by explaining it can be very practical, but in many ways it makes no sense. It's like zooming in on a fractal trying to get to the center. But it's a fractal, it goes on eternally... so the center is the whole thing. You're looking at it right now.. Look around the room... thats the answer. But this goes completely against your patterns...

This is what gurus are for... to get you to drop those patterns they make you do all sorts of ridiculous things so that when you are ready you may get to the secret.
And you'll get more and more confused untill suddenly you realize that you never needed a guru. And that he never knew any more than you did. You were looking at the same thing from different angles...
A good guru knows that... the only reason he is a guru is because there are always seekers and he knows that if he closed shop, you would just go elsewhere. And he doesn't want you to end up in a religious sekt where the leader has mal intent.

Then why am I writing this....? Because I like it. hahah

If I was to say anything it would be this: You don't acquire inner knowledge. You have it.. Sounds stupid... but thats the best I can do today.

If I tried to explain the rather bullet proof case supporting the people who "embrace ridiculous falsehoods" in the name of faith it would suffer in the same way. And I'm not going to try because it is far beyond my skill with words and philosophy. And I would make a fool of myself. It is very interesting... but it is much more useful to understand faith by faith itself. (and this is why we don't argue with christians:chuckle:)

An interesting addition, with some very nice implications: When we look closely at faith and logic, we find that there is solid logic behind putting your trust in faith. And likewise that there is faith in putting your trust in logic.
Some people have a lot of trouble accepting these statements... Especially in our time. But both are true.

Edit: Oh! and the whole forehead scratching thing! I can't think of anything valuable to say about it. But that is so messed up! hahaha.
Hope it heals ok. But hey, at least if it gets infected and leaves a horrible scar you can just cover it up with a third eye tattoo:D Did you come up with an excuse for when people ask what happened? Hope you're not a married woman. haha

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Originally Posted by LighrkVader

Hope you're not a married woman. haha

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He isn't. :D I guess inner knowledge doesn't help with outer stuff, huh?

haha. Apparently not, though in it's defense I did have a feeling:lol:

When my coworkers asked I just told them what happened. Besides trying to gouge out my third eye, another theory is that I have a maggots nest or something in my frontal lobe that my subconscious is trying to tell me about.

I think an almost universal limitation of gurus is each one has a special insight, but believes it is the only insight that matters in general. I think there generally isn't a clear line between that kind of arrogance and 'mal intent'.

Yes I agree, there's something a bit peculiar about how we model everything. We have the ability to directly contact things with our minds, and yet, we mostly use that contact to construct a personal caricature of everything which we carry around in our heads.

You're saying you felt I'm a woman? I experience myself as being male, or genderless, or as a woman wearing a man, depending on what I'm considering. I experience other people that way also. When I express myself, I put on a kind of ponderously analytical persona that I'm not entirely comfortable with. If I attempt to communicate in the more intuitive, metaphorical manner I would otherwise express, to most people it seems like I'm neurotic, or making stuff up without any sound basis. Also, reason has its place and value, which I appreciate, even though in a sense I don't start from there.

I think it isn't possible to understand another person without a fair amount of mind reading. The meaning really isn't in the words for the most part. But when the other person's thoughts are too different from one's own, and they don't provide enough signs to help, it can seem like there's no real content there at all. To me an important part of communication is to assume the other person has something to say. Then it becomes possible to understand something which is even a bit beyond what the person intended, and both people grow.

A scientist who disparages faith nevertheless is capable of putting enough faith in a hypothesis to follow through on it and find out if its true or not.

Even if a religious person puts their faith in a falsehood, they're still doing a kind of contrapositive proof with their life. A difficulty in the meantime of course is that philosophical dogmas tend to twist around evidence in ways that reinforce rather than correct the error. For example, my guru is such a positive light in the world that Satan works extra hard to defeat him, which accounts for all the especially terrible temptations he sometimes yields to, and all the slanderous things that his enemies say about him.

Thinking about these chakras more, I'm struck by how out of balance they are in some regards in relation to each other. It seems like a useful exercise.

My intuition suggests that the 'trying to scratch out my third eye' interpretation is true, but I don't know if that intuition is right or not. In the past, I have at times felt horrified by events that it seems I can feel are going to happen to people which have not found a way to happen yet, and I shrink away from the part of myself that feels that. Now I don't have premonitions like I did in the past, and I don't feel that so much, but I guess it is still there in some form.

To me, one of the beautiful things about life is how we can't forever hide from ourselves. We run, but the truth catches up eventually. In one view, this is damnation, but its also redemption, its what keeps us from deluding and losing ourselves forever. I'm feeling really good about this today, how trustworthy it is, and how nice it is to have something that can be trusted like that, and the devotion and gratitude this inspires.

Thanks for your thoughts.

haha. no, I assumed that you were a dude. ;) Thats the feeling I had.

I like a lot of people can't understand the genderqueer thing. Not saying it's not real. Obviously it seems to be a matter of faith? I haven't read about it and I'm never alone with my only openly genderqueer friend. I don't feel comfortable asking her to educate me about it around everybody else. Me and my buddies tend to talk and tell jokes without thinking, and we all know we don't mean nothing by it... but she seems a bit fragile and I don't want to put her in a situation where she opens up and tells us about something she's passionate about, only to feel like she's getting shat on.

Anyway, here is how I see it so far:
I don't know what it feels like to be a woman. I've been a man my whole life. So if I should ever get the idea that "right now I feel like a woman" how do I know I am not just feeling the way I think a woman feels... That wouldn't make me a woman. It would make me a man who currently feels the way he thinks a woman feels. (I know I am probably trying to rationalize faith here...)

But more practically then! Can't someone who is male do and appreciate all the things that culture considers womanly without being woman? I feel like a lot of this stuff is about wanting to break down our gender roles to let people be free to be themselves. Yet it feels like it is actually enforcing the idea that these roles and inherent differences are real and that it's supposed to be a certain way.
If genderqueer people said: "I'm a dude. But I also like stuff that is considered girly. Some times I even like to pretend I'm a girl for fun" that would undermine the gender roles.
But they don't say it like that.. instead they might say: "I am both a girl and a boy because I like both boy stuff and girl stuff. And also because I feel like a girl sometimes, and other times I feel like a boy. Oh and stop enforcing gender roles"

When they say it like that, they are basically implying that "girls are one way, boys are another way. Because I am both ways I need to be both boy and girl." Thereby living by and enforcing the gender roles they claim don't apply to them. Also it creates a distance between them and people who want to fit in with societies norms. They seem too far out, and so people who could be ok with the first version will say "nah... thats weird. He has a dick"

Again. I'm a noob at this topic. I wasn't gonna write this much about it, but it just happened...


There definitely are preachers and gurus who are in it to rob their followers of all their money though. That would be what I mean by mal-intent.

Edit: reread and saw that it was hard to undestand, so I rephrased a bit.

I think everyone is confused about identity. And for people posting on 'beyond dreaming', there may be even more confusion, because we're talking about experiencing ourselves as being outside of the boundaries defined by our physical bodies.

I agree there's been a trend towards forcing people into identity categories rather than letting people be and express what they want to. There's also still a trend in the other direction going on at the same time though, even in the minds of many of the same people.

Even if we embrace an ethic of gender agnosticism, I think it is unavoidable for most people to identify primarily as one or the other, and to want other people to recognize them that way. Gender distinctions exist both for biological reasons and because of more fundamental principles. Even though there is a huge amount of personal variation of experience, that experience falls very generally into two clusters which people can feel. And the category that people feel they can identify as does not always conform to their visible genetalia. My point is there's a psychic aspect to this, in addition to cultural ideas and distributions of physical characteristics.

By fundamental principles, I mean the way that a great many things have natural dichotomies. Active/passive, light/dark, electric/magnetic, desire/feeling, etc. In the case of electromagnetism, as an example, the dichotomy is built in, its not merely a symptom of how we think about it, imposed from the outside. The way in which we self-identify with various psychological dichotomies influences our thoughts and feelings about gender. Its a subtle thing, the 'I am this' feeling, and it strongly determines what we experience even if we don't think about it consciously.

As you may know, jnana yoga is pretty much exclusively about movement of sense of identity. I don't think it is a path to liberation in quite the sense that its taught to be. But in any case, it is powerful beyond just subjective experience, and I doubt I'd ever had experienced dream telepathy, astral projection, premonitions, etc. without having done some of that thinking.

This is the third time I’ve started this post, typing on my phone. I’m typing along, then some banner add bullshit shifts the screen so that my typing clicks on it and takes me to another page, then my post is gone. But it’s all good, because someone got a couple cents from my click, notwithstanding that I haven’t bought anything because of an online add in the 25 years I’ve been on the Internet.

OK, that’s four times now, but this time it submitted so I’m editing and continuing.

I watched the new Star Wars with my kids on Thursday (very vague spoilers coming). There was telepathy in it, and astral projection, and some questioning of the wisdom of psychic development. There was also confusion of having some notable inner experience and not knowing what to do with it, and the apparent non-existence of any qualified or trustworthy teacher. This put me in a bit of a funk, but also got me asking a couple of new questions about chakra development.

But now I’m almost out of time, and losing interest in starting to type this again, so I’ll just leave you with that teaser of a non-post, for whatever it’s worth. My thoughts have to do with the black pit in the ground, and the mirror experience in the watery cavern, if you’ve seen that or know something about it and want to talk about it.

I haven't seen it yet, but I was just re-watching all of the Netflix Marvel shows recently and noticed that there's a big pit in the basement of a building in New York that features in several of the shows, and I remembered there was also a huge pit under a building in Stranger Things (another Netflix show). In each case there's also an elevator that descends into the pit. Was already starting to wonder if it's some kind of collective unconscious thing going on (or just writers re-using ideas?) and then I saw this post.

I’ll be brief because this is take 3 on my response already. (Same problem as before except now I see that the banner ad is infected with something that lets it execute even if I don’t click.)

The black hole represents the mental door to the dark side of the force. Openness and honesty within oneself makes so much possible, but then there’s this sucking black hole of doom very near to the source of inspiration. For me it is an unsolved problem.

SPOILERS AHEAD FOR THE MARVEL NETFLIX SHOWS AND STRANGER THINGS

That makes sense. The pits in both the Marvel Netflix shows and in Stranger Things were essentially portals for some dark malevolent force trying to get through into our world. Hmmm... thinking about it in a little more depth:

Stranger Things - the portal to the Upside Down. It's where the monsters are coming from, but it's also where Eleven got her powers of telepathy and telekinesis (Hmm...).

Marvel shows - At the bottom of the pit was a chamber housing the skeleton of an ancient dragon that The Hand were using as a power source of some kind for their powers of resurrection and eternal life. Another dragon was also the source of Iron Fist's power. He was trained to be nothing more than a living weapon - a slave to protect Kun Lun (however it's spelled) but has broken his vow to be its protector and instead went to New York where the Hand is based now to fight them directly, as well as to discover and develop his human identity, which had been repressed through his training.

I think I should also mention that all of the superpowers in the Netflix Marvel universe (which are never called superpowers, and the superheroes are never called superheroes, but Gifteds) are presented as the result of trauma or abuse, usually in childhood. As I re-watched the shows I was able to really pick up on a lot of symbolism, much of which I missed the first time through, but the shows are actually incredibly well crafted especially in terms of the psychology. Both heroes and villains are the results of abuse or trauma, the difference is in what attitude they took in response.

SPOILERS AHEAD FOR THE MARVEL NETFLIX SHOWS AND STRANGER THINGS

That makes sense. The pits in both the Marvel Netflix shows and in Stranger Things were essentially portals for some dark malevolent force trying to get through into our world. Hmmm... thinking about it in a little more depth:

Stranger Things - the portal to the Upside Down. It's where the monsters are coming from, but it's also where Eleven got her powers of telepathy and telekinesis (Hmm...).

Marvel shows - At the bottom of the pit was a chamber housing the skeleton of an ancient dragon that The Hand were using as a power source of some kind for their powers of resurrection and eternal life. Another dragon was also the source of Iron Fist's power. He was trained to be nothing more than a living weapon - a slave to protect Kun Lun (however it's spelled) but has broken his vow to be its protector and instead went to New York where the Hand is based now to fight them directly, as well as to discover and develop his human identity, which had been repressed through his training.

I think I should also mention that all of the superpowers in the Netflix Marvel universe (which are never called superpowers, and the superheroes are never called superheroes, but Gifteds) are presented as the result of trauma or abuse, usually in childhood. As I re-watched the shows I was able to really pick up on a lot of symbolism, much of which I missed the first time through, but the shows are actually incredibly well crafted especially in terms of the psychology. Both heroes and villains are the results of abuse or trauma, the difference is in what attitude they took in response.

Just ran across this video which fits this thread perfectly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq9U0CAj3MU

TL;DR - practicing integrity will open all the chakras. Integrity means making your words a reality - the words you speak aloud as well as the ones you speak to yourself inside. Do what you say, say what you mean. It aligns your inner and outer realities.

EDIT - I would add do the things you know you should, though maybe that's included under the words you speak internally to yourself.

Those guys got their infos from Paramahamsa Nithyananda (their guru), who is also on YouTube. Nithyananda talks a lot about integrity. I definitely see the truth behind it.