My Astral Body, I Think I Felt It!

[blade5x]

Yesterday I succesfully induced sleep-paralysis, and at that point, I was choosing between having an OBE or LD (I belive they're two different things). At one point, it felt like a finger or something was moving up and down my spine, and it kind of creeped me out, so I tried to move my arm, which I did, and I twisted it in a really wierd position to block the movement. But how could I have done that in sleep paralysis? Also the position, I don't think it was physically possible lol. It seriously felt like I physically moved my arm, but when I woke up, my arm was laying straight on my side like when I went to sleep. So... astral arm? I've only achieved a partial OBE before in which I just felt like air, could not feel myself at all, and it only lasted a few seconds.

[wombing]

why do you believe a lucid dream and OBE are different? what qualities does an OBE supposedly have that a lucid cannot? not trying to challenge you, i'm just interested in the widespread opinions on the whole LD/OBE "controversy". ----- i know exactly what you are talking about when you say it felt like your arm moved, but your physical arm was stationary. i have felt this sensation (in arms, legs, head....basically every body part at some time) often.

[Meidosemme]

I am not very qualified to ask, but shouldn't a person experiencing a genuine OBE be able to witness remote events that are happening in consensual/waking reality during his/her trance? Wombing, as you remarked, the dreamer may not be able to distinguish an OBE from a lucid dream set in a perfect simulation of the waking world in which s/he hangs around in an “astral body” avatar; it takes another person to test the above hypothesis. So, just ask an OBE practitioner to tell you what you were doing in a remote place while s/he was asleep. This should settle controversy, at least for both of you.

[Howie]

There is a lot of grey area(or grey matter) to these events and how they parallel one another. From what I understand from what I have read and some brief experiences of my own Remote or distant viewing is not related to OBE's. A remote viewer views his or hers perception via a way that possibly the conscious of oneself sees a particular "target" from the location from where they are without moving. An OBE, if happens is rumored to be a separation from your physical body. I have had what seemed to be an OBE seven times now. They do NOT feel in any regard to me like that of a LD. But I am sceptical still. I feel that wombing brings up a very good, to the point question --> " what qualities does an OBE supposedly have that a lucid cannot? " Cannot being the key word.

[Meidosemme]

[quote]There is a lot of grey area(or grey matter) to these events and how they parallel one another. Do you mean the target events? Isn't it possible to narrow the target set in some way, in order to force more unambiguous descriptions? For example, “how many pencils did I lay on my desk?” or “which color was my shirt?” are questions that elicit precise answers. [quote]From what I understand from what I have read and some brief experiences of my own Remote or distant viewing is not related to OBE's. That's interesting. Phenomenologically, remote viewing and OBEs seem to be very different experiences (if I understood well, RV is more like “abolishing distance between observer and target” whereas OBEs are more like “going to see what's there”), but objectively, how can they be distinguished from each other? What other testable actions can one do in an OBE that aren't possible RVing? [quote]I have had what seemed to be an OBE seven times now. They do NOT feel in any regard to me like that of a LD. But I am sceptical still. So, you could tell the difference? How? We have two separate problems here: (i) How to distinguish possibly different states of consciousness from each other (like being awake and dreaming, LDs and OBEs, OBEs and RVing)? and (ii) Are OBEs and LDs different in that OBEs somehow happen in the objective world whereas LDs are private experiences? (i) appears to be a strictly phenomenological problem whereas (ii), by virtue of being tied to the objective world, is a testable, hence scientific problem. Moreover, they are orthogonal: - even if from the first person's point of view there's no difference between having an OBE and dreaming that one is having an OBE, that is, if (i) admits no solution for OBEs and LDs, (ii) remains testable. - and even if the answer to (ii) is “sorry, OBEs are not disembodied travels in the objective world,” this does not mean that they are some kind of LDs: they may be the matter of another class of altered states of consciouness and present qualities which differentiate them from LDs in the perspective of (i). If you have good reasons to be skeptical about the “reality” of OBEs but have some experience with them, then that's where you can enlighten us!

[blade5x]

Originally posted by wombing why do you believe a lucid dream and OBE are different? *what qualities does an OBE supposedly have that a lucid cannot? *not trying to challenge you, i'm just interested in the widespread opinions on the whole LD/OBE "controversy". ----- *i know exactly what you are talking about when you say it felt like your arm moved, but your physical arm was stationary. i have felt this sensation (in arms, legs, head....basically every body part at some time) often. The Vibes I feel attempting an OBE are so much more intense than when I attempt WILD. That's pretty much why I believe they are different. I'm also Christian, so I do believe in life after death, however with OBEs... in all honesty I don't know, I've yet to really experience one yet. So for now I will belive they are real, until I experience a few of my own, in which then I can really make a decision.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Meidosemme+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Meidosemme)</div> Do you mean the target events? Isn't it possible to narrow the target set in some way, in order to force more unambiguous descriptions? For example, “how many pencils did I lay on my desk?” or “which color was my shirt?” are questions that elicit precise answers.[/b] By target I mean the specific place of origin described to a remote viewer before the attempt to visualize any sensory input. Sleep is not usually an affiliate with the general practice of remote viewing. I would agree that narrowing the target would seem a likely way to narrow the discrepancy of any of these practices. <!--QuoteBegin-Meidosemme That's interesting. Phenomenologically, remote viewing and OBEs seem to be very different experiences (if I understood well, RV is more like “abolishing distance between observer and target” whereas OBEs are more like “going to see what's there”), but objectively, how can they be distinguished from each other? What other testable actions can one do in an OBE that aren't possible RVing? The only way I know to test either of these are to have indisputable evidence witnessed by another group or party. The distinguishable attributes between the two could only be described by the one who witnesses the event. Which can be subjective. OBE states that I have experienced or that have been described to myself had occurred during a trance like state. Most often accompanied by a state to or from a stage of sleep. Or sleep paralysis and hypnopompic hallucinations. All these give rise for me to question the validity of there difference from that of a level of a conscious dream state. I believe the above explained how that I can feel that an OBE can be misconstrued as a lucid dream. They appear to the person to be completely different states of consciousness. Which it may very well be. IMO though there are too many parallels among the two to substantial reason to claim that they are different. The same would go for dream sharing. If any proof were to be obtained that would give logical reason to feel otherwise they may be able to distinguish the differences between these states. Distant viewing has been studied and has had some recorded evidence of what they call a "hit". Do you feel that these are all altered states of consciousness or that there is a plane to which the consciousness travels or universal consciousness to obtain this information?

[blade5x]

Even if OBEs are real, the chances of proving one are slim to none. When you do wander the physical world, it may seem dream-like because that's the state your technically in. I mean, its the same thing when during sleep paralysis one is awake and begins to hallucinate mixing the physical world with the dream world. They're hard to validate, and pretty much have to be done on your own. If you do validate it, chances are you won't be able to prove it to others, except maybe one other person, in which still, 95% of others will still refuse to believe. I'm still looking to do so myself. Howetzer made a good point. So OBEs can = LDs, or LDs can = OBEs, or they can both be different. I believe OBEs are real though. There's no way that the physical is all there is. If existance can exist - If the physical can exist than anything can exist IMO.

[Howie]

Originally posted by blade5x So OBEs can = LDs, or LDs can = OBEs, or they can both be different. I believe OBEs are real though. There's no way that the physical is all there is. If existance can exist - If the physical can exist than anything can exist IMO. I too Blade5x feel that there would seem able for the mind state to separate from the physical. What is consciousness? What is it adhered to, Is it bound by the physical? Why would it be? Our consciousness exists. Not like the physical nature of our bodies that exists by a structured environment. The consciousness could reside....well anywhere!>?

[Gus]

for anyone who wants to know when you sleep basically what is happening is your physical body slows itself down and begins a semi-healing process (obviously we cannot heal the effects of aging, only minor physical problems) and our astral body goes out to investigate the non-physical realm of which we do not understand and most people dont comprehened ever during their lives. When this occurs it sends this information back to the body, and the rest (say the half of our consciousness that did not explore) translates the information as a rather creative dream so a dream is very very similar to an astral projection, and if you use a lucid dream the right way then it basically becomes an oobe since you are directing more of your consciousness towards your intent of a certain information anyway... on subject i think it probably was your astral arm that did the thing you mentioned... that sounds really weird though... ne way -peace

[Howie]

Originally posted by Gus for anyone who wants to know when you sleep basically what is happening is your physical body slows itself down and begins a semi-healing process (obviously we cannot heal the effects of aging, only minor physical problems) and our astral body goes out to investigate the non-physical realm of which we do not understand and most people dont comprehened ever during their lives. *When this occurs it sends this information back to the body, and the rest (say the half of our consciousness that did not explore) translates the information as a rather creative dream If this were the case why would so much of our dream content be derived from everyday experiences? With some thought and comparison, you could attach many of the themes to something that relates to our waking lives? I have never heard this idea. Sounds interesting though. The astral body describes what?

[blade5x]

Also another thing, once I'm in sleep paralysis and still concious (did it again today, I'm getting good at this ), having a regular LD as I know it is easy at that point, but I am still yet to have a successful full OBE. Anyways so this morning... I started to try and have an OBE again. Yet again something unexpected happens. I'm laying there feeling the vibes and hearing them as well (starting to get used to these now), but this time sight started to form before I was even having an OBE!?! A line of vision formed in front of me where I saw my wall an covers, it was in black and white, and something small was moving. The vision dissappeared, and then returned, but this time all my covers were moving in a wave like motion, and again everything was in black and white. And all this was really clear. And then again it went away as I started to get let's say.... confused? I'm taking it slowly. I'm not going all in one shot (I kind of have a fear of what may be on the other side, but so far its been all good, and I'm more confident now).

[Howie]

Originally posted by blade5x Also another thing, once I'm in sleep paralysis and still concious (did it again today, I'm getting good at this ), having a regular LD as I know it is easy at that point, but I am still yet to have a successful full OBE. I started to try and have an OBE again. Yet again something unexpected happens. I'm laying there feeling the vibes and hearing them as well (starting to get used to these now), but this time sight started to form before I was even having an OBE!?! A line of vision formed in front of me where I saw my wall an covers, it was in black and white, and something small was moving. The vision dissappeared, and then returned, but this time all my covers were moving in a wave like motion, and again everything was in black and white. And all this was really clear. And then again it went away as I started to get let's say.... confused?. Very cool that you are experiencing these altered states frequently! As we discussed how lucid dream and OBEs can be so interequitly woundtogether, maybe this experience was an occasion of HH. Something I mentioned earlier. Hypnopompic hallucinations. It is safe to say our mind wants to reenter a dream state at this point, more over if you are now relaxed during these states. So you are consciously active but your subconscious (still trying to regain hold) inspires images that are not real.

[blade5x]

[quote] Very cool that you are experiencing these altered states frequently! As we discussed how lucid dream and OBEs can be so interequitly woundtogether, maybe this experience was an occasion of HH. Something I mentioned earlier. Hypnopompic hallucinations. It is safe to say our mind wants to reenter a dream state at this point, more over if you are now relaxed during these states. So you are consciously active but your subconscious (still trying to regain hold) inspires images that are not real. I've had an experience HH before, but never of what I should be seeing if my eyes were physically open at the present moment I guess because I was thinking "I want to see, I want vision, I want sight" it sort of just happened (but my other attempts, I always wanted to see as well, and no imagery really came up). It was such cool imagery. I wish I kept it going, next time I will for sure. Holy crap, I just did it this morning. All I can say is it felt nothing like a LD, NOTHING!. It didn't even feel like a dream. It just felt, different. I had a tingly/static like feeling around me the whole time. Wow... it was amazing and scary at the same time. I got into SP this morning, 7-9AM works like a charm for me. I felt tingly, at first I thought I want to see... nothing. Still all tingly, and I just thought "I'm going all the way this time" So I waited until the tingly feeling was all over, and I just thought, I'm going to try the rollover technique. And out of nowhere I feel like I'm tearing from body and I see the floor below me (I feel myself rolling this whole time) and I drop to the floor and I can't see anything. This is where it got bad. I could barely stand up, I was in some retarded looking crouched position, and I started clapping because I was happy lol. Then something kind of like jumped on me, and freaked me out, so I wanted back in my body immediatly, but I didn't just go back in right away, so I went over to where it was supposed to be (could barely see) and just wanted back in, and then a moment later I was back in waking up. May 16, 2006 First OBE