The Implications Of Pre-cognitive Ld's

[Fallen Angel]

I have found the friendly banter and enthusiastic communications in this forum most refreshing. Nonetheless, I feel compelled to raise a small point of philosophy that keeps pestering me. Have any of you really considered the implications of what you're casually alluding to here? Whilst OBE's, shared dreams, ghosts and such like can be put down to some form of cognitive aberration (or if you like "super-cognitive" capability) there is a small matter of the laws of physics when it comes to pre-cognitive experiences. I think that science would embrace the concept of a human capacity to communicate or sense things that are "remote in space" and is even now accepting the existence of PSI capabilities (for those of you who belong to the AAAS there is a recently formed Chapter dedicated to such research). However, there's going to be a real stink about anything that claims to circumvent the laws of physics when it comes to time and the boundaries imposed by relativity. Making a mockery of established scientific doctrine is bound to lead to ridicule at best. For those of us involved in scientific research it is clearly unhealthy to believe in such fantasies. Unfortunately, I do. For those of you trying to deal with the "truth" of pre-cog LD's perhaps I could throw in my two cents worth, with the aim of reducing just a little your mental anguish. From my experience the following is true (and scientifically verifiable): 1. Pre-cog LD's happen to many people. 2. They can be vivid, interactive and as real as life itself (no goo effect). 3. It is possible to recall events, symbols, text, numbers, smells, tastes colour etc with 100% accuracy. 4. When the event starts to occur it can be recognized immediately. 5. Most pre-cogs "go with the flow" of events out of shock or some kind of mental restraint. 6. But it is quite possible to alter a chain of events in order to turn a negative outcome into something positive - yes, you can save lives. As you can imagine this knowledge plays havoc with my views on science and technology. But it is the ethical and philosophical problems that arise in a universe in which the future can be known that concern me most. I am sorely tempted to become an Astral anarchist because I am so annoyed with the trouble all this has caused me. But I won't. What would/do you people do with this kind of knowledge and ability?

[Asclepius]

However, there's going to be a real stink about anything that claims to circumvent the laws of physics when it comes to time and the boundaries imposed by relativity. [/b] Which physics? Maybe Newtonian and Relativistic. But neither quantum mechanics nor string theory preclude time travel. Let's consider another Nobel prize winner: The backwards-moving electron when viewed with time moving forwards appears the same as an ordinary electron, except that it is attracted to normal electrons - we say it has a positive charge. For this reason it's called a positron. This phenomena is general. Every particle in Nature has an amplitude to move backwards in time, and therefore has an anti-particle. (Richard Feynman, 1985)[/b] Making a mockery of established scientific doctrine is bound to lead to ridicule at best. [/b] Actually the recognition and resolution of problems with established doctrine leads to progress in science. Einstein's consideration of the problems of Mercury's orbit as calculated by Newtonian physics lead to relativity which overthrew established ideas of absolute space, absolute time, and separation of matter and energy. For those of us involved in scientific research it is clearly unhealthy to believe in such fantasies. [/b] Please separate science from belief. Science is supposed to provide theories which most adequately address observed facts. So it is the best probable description. But the relative paradigm changes. Belief is no guarantee of truth. Non-belief is no guarantee of falsity. Lucid dreams occurred before scientific proof was acheived. You can find many threads on this forum with fights over beliefs of what science permits to be true and what others claim science has outlawed. In general they are arguments about belief. If you would like to read more about physicists who consider remote viewing and precognition try: Mind-Reach: Scientists Look at Psychic Abilities by Richard Bach, Russell Targ, and Harold E. Puthoff or Mind at Large: IEEE Symposia on the Nature of Extrasensory Perception by Charles T. Tart, Harold E. Puthoff, and Russell Targ

[Chaos Psyche]

I have found the friendly banter and enthusiastic communications in this forum most refreshing. Nonetheless, I feel compelled to raise a small point of philosophy that keeps pestering me. Have any of you really considered the implications of what you're casually alluding to here? Whilst OBE's, shared dreams, ghosts and such like can be put down to some form of cognitive aberration (or if you like "super-cognitive" capability) there is a small matter of the laws of physics when it comes to pre-cognitive experiences. I think that science would embrace the concept of a human capacity to communicate or sense things that are "remote in space" and is even now accepting the existence of PSI capabilities (for those of you who belong to the AAAS there is a recently formed Chapter dedicated to such research). However, there's going to be a real stink about anything that claims to circumvent the laws of physics when it comes to time and the boundaries imposed by relativity. Making a mockery of established scientific doctrine is bound to lead to ridicule at best. For those of us involved in scientific research it is clearly unhealthy to believe in such fantasies. Unfortunately, I do. For those of you trying to deal with the "truth" of pre-cog LD's perhaps I could throw in my two cents worth, with the aim of reducing just a little your mental anguish. From my experience the following is true (and scientifically verifiable): 1. Pre-cog LD's happen to many people. 2. They can be vivid, interactive and as real as life itself (no goo effect). 3. It is possible to recall events, symbols, text, numbers, smells, tastes colour etc with 100% accuracy. 4. When the event starts to occur it can be recognized immediately. 5. Most pre-cogs "go with the flow" of events out of shock or some kind of mental restraint. 6. But it is quite possible to alter a chain of events in order to turn a negative outcome into something positive - yes, you can save lives. As you can imagine this knowledge plays havoc with my views on science and technology. But it is the ethical and philosophical problems that arise in a universe in which the future can be known that concern me most. I am sorely tempted to become an Astral anarchist because I am so annoyed with the trouble all this has caused me. But I won't. What would/do you people do with this kind of knowledge and ability? [/b] Have you experianced any LD's?

[icuurd12b42]

From my experience the following is true (and scientifically verifiable): 1. Pre-cog LD's happen to many people.[/b] It is impossible to become lucid in a precog dream. At least for me. The dream happens, you wake up, you forget it. 2. They can be vivid, interactive and as real as life itself (no goo effect).[/b] Vivid, yes as any dream, Interactive, no unless you consider the repeat of what you do IRL interactive. As real as life, don’t know (I was never lucid in a precog dream) 3. It is possible to recall events, symbols, text, numbers, smells, tastes colour etc with 100% accuracy.[/b] Only while the event is occurring. It triggers the memory. The recall happens as the event unfolds (seconds prior) therefore making it (recall) useless. Maybe enough to say Duck! Not fast enough for the other parties involved to react. 4. When the event starts to occur it can be recognized immediately.[/b] True. Juke like "Hey, I'm dreaming" in a dream. "Hey, I dream't this" or "Hey, Deja vu" 5. Most pre-cogs "go with the flow" of events out of shock or some kind of mental restraint.[/b] We actually find it pretty funny and the rush that comes with it is pleasant. Even bad events become ridiculously funny. Some kind of mental restrain, yes, involuntary restrain I would say. Seems all you can do is think about the fact that you are experiencing it and remember what will happen next. Try to interact, to change things seems to be impossible. You are more of a puppet during that time. 6. But it is quite possible to alter a chain of events in order to turn a negative outcome into something positive - yes, you can save lives.[/b] Unlikely. I have seen events delayed for years until you forget about them. That is usually when the event occurs, when it is forgotten, making precognition a useless ability. I am not an expert, I have had many experiences (especially as a child). I lost interest when I realised future events are cast in stone. You forget about them and you cannot act beyond the pre determined script. Pretty useless. And no, I don’t consider myself a psychic. I find the whole thing stupid but funny. As for precognition being real, well, it is, just like lucid dreaming is real. Provable, well, no, it is not provable to the point of being accepted as fact, like lucid dreaming. You have to experience it to believed it.

[Fallen Angel]

Thank you for your informative replies. Asclepius, whilst I am aware of the main arguments about the progress of scientific knowledge I am not overly concerned with whether or not there is an appropriate theory that describes how pre-cognitive experiences come about. Nor am I too concerned about which existing "laws of physics" may apply or be circumvented. I raised these points rather to highlight the sometimes traumatic turn of events required to shift the scientific paradigm. I am personally dealing with that trauma right now so please forgive the digression. What is of greater concern to me are the implications of a new paradigm becoming generally accepted. What would the effects on society as a whole be? What are the economic and political repercussions? How would those who claim to be the moral and ethical regulators of our time respond to such terrifying possibilities? I'll give you an example. Suppose that someone was planning to commit a murder, but they knew that there was a chance (small perhaps) that someone was already looking at their crime and taking steps to either report or prevent it. I know that this sounds very Hollywood but stop and think for a moment. This is now a very possible scenario. How would this knowledge affect the actions of our future criminal? How would this knowledge affect everyone's actions? To Chaos Psyche and icuurd12b42, I am the subject of my own experiments. Yes I can LD as well as pre-cog with absolute clarity. The event streams are long enough (10 minutes or more) to take some pretty drastic actions to change the future. This is not deja-vu. One of the drawbacks is not knowing what the repercussions of any change may be. But I'm working on this.

[icuurd12b42]

One of the drawbacks is not knowing what the repercussions of any change may be. But I'm working on this. [/b] That, right there, is why I would leave this to the people who do know.

[Fallen Angel]

That, right there, is why I would leave this to the people who do know. [/b] I would like to, but who are these people? I was hoping that it might be someone reading this thread. You have perhaps hit the veritable ethical nail on the head. If you know you can save someone's life, should you do it? If you don't, then a life is lost. If you do then at least the chance of a more positive future exists. Whilst I wouldn't wish this kind of decision on anyone, irrespective of their theological standpoint, once the possibility of this kind of action exists then it becomes important to understand the implications. It doesn't necessarily matter in the grand scheme of things whether or not the life is actually saved, what is important is that the possibility exists. And if it exists, how does that affect our actions?

[Asclepius]

to highlight the sometimes traumatic turn of events required to shift the scientific paradigm. I am personally dealing with that trauma right now so please forgive the digression. What is of greater concern to me are the implications of a new paradigm becoming generally accepted. What would the effects on society as a whole be? What are the economic and political repercussions? How would those who claim to be the moral and ethical regulators of our time respond to such terrifying possibilities? [/b] Sorry to hear that the expansion of possibilities is traumatic. I have been fortunate to witness personally convincing events of telepathy, precognition, and remote viewing. These have opened up new possibilities to me. My belief in linear time took a hit, but I enjoy living in a richer universe. Unfortunately it will be a long time before a new paradigm will be accepted. Precognitive dreams are described in the Old testament, but are still not 'generally accepted' Buddhism dates back to 2000 BC and has precepts of telepathy and precognition. One could raise genuine doubts about the acceptance of these ideas in China and Japan despite the lengthy exposure. The more immediate question appears to be how will you respond? Will you succumb to fascination or inflation, run in fear, or will you try to learn more? A person must control his thoughts in a dream. The training of this alertness will produce awareness of the intermediate dimension. It will produce great benefits for the individual.[/b] Ibn El-Arabi, as quoted in The Sufis by Idries Shah.

[Fallen Angel]

The more immediate question appears to be how will you respond? [/b] Now that is worthwhile comment. Thanks for taking the time to write it. For me the intellectual chasm that must be crossed in moving from scepticism to acceptance of anything that is not generally recognized reality is both wide and psychologically unsettling. Just because you know something doesn't mean that you believe it - cognitive dissonance. As for what to do next, I've raised this topic to try and locate any obvious problems with an experimental protocol that I am setting up. The objective is to difinitively bring something back from the future. Why? Mainly because I hope to offer some support to many others who are troubled by their own experiences. Whilst I have no intention at this time of establishing a hypothesis on how pre-cog works, I believe that it is possible to put the subject on the map of conventional thinking and hopefully reduce the associated stress. BTW, whilst it is true that historically it has been difficult to formulate convincing experiments to repeatedly demonstrate pre-cog, that may not be the case today. I think it can be done.