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No. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by blade5x
It can certainly be seen as a "gateway" drug.Quote:
Originally Posted by CanceledCzech
Newbies high on the cool experience of lucid dreaming might easily be pulled into the "Beyond".
Which is why I don't like people trying to "sneak" beyond dreaming discussion onto the main forum.
So the legend goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cusp
then you didnt understand my argumentQuote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
at what point in time did I say without a doubt that I have astral projected?
the point I am making is our definition of reality - opens the door to dreams being experienced as a reality
it is only natural that people see this reality that they experience outside of their being
I experience the reality, however, within me
Off topic for a second... Moonshine, for the love of all that is holy, learn to use the Edit button.
Why? Are we being scored?Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphinus
Its a net forum. Chill.
Contrary to what most have said, no, AP and OBE isn't some kind of lucid dream, the techniques are equal to it, but it isn't lucid dreaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walms
They have to be comparable to be the same, they are not comparable expieriences at all. It could be a different type of dreaming, but it's not lucid dreaming. Like you said, the techniques are similar but that means squat. If people actually took the time to study these things, they would see this rather then say they are the same because they use the same techniques. It's all about the expierience rather then the technique that got them there.
Good theory. When trying to WILD I feel as if Im in a slight OBE and see things with my eyes closed, like my room.
I've had mindblowing WILD experiences where I felt myself rise out of my body, float up through the ceiling then hover in a void looking at a crystal blue light show. Which ultimately led into a very typical lucid.Quote:
Originally Posted by InvisibleMan
Just another mode of transition.
Honestly, how can we be surprised at out of body type feelings during wild when we know for a fact that we're switching from external input to internal generated input.
In a way we are literally leaving our bodies to take up temporary residence in our minds.
As some one mentioned recently, is it not enough that the garden is beautiful without wanting to believe in fairies at the bottom of it?
Exactly, this made me think again of the neuromatrix theory, which makes sense when you realise that in dreams, we also have a dream body generated by some internal process, which might well be this forementionned neuromatrix. Switching from external sensory input to this internal mode while being conscious (like during WILD, and OBE), might give the false (but highly acurate and convincing!) impression we are actually leaving our physical bodies.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
AgreedQuote:
Originally Posted by LucidFlanders
Quote:
Originally Posted by User
Thats it? Whats your reason.
As to it being "all about the experience," we all know that dreams
tend to deliver on expectations.
It's quite simple. You experience totally different things in both experiences. Differences that are so substantial that it's very hard to miss them. I've had a FA where I thought I was AP and it didn't feel anything like an OBE. I still felt my body on me bed just like a LD. Contrary to this, every-time I project out of my body, it happens in real time where I can see my surroundings but I can't interact with the environment like in waking life or a dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
One time I had an OBE and I was watching what my family were watching on TV. Though I wanted to, I couldn't speak to them. I became annoyed and jumped back in my body to talk to them about the show. I know this is totally subjective, but for what it's worth, it does prove my point and why I agreed.
Dreams are wildly different experiences.
The other night I made my shoes change colour as I looked at them.
No doubt I could make my arms look ghostly too, especially if thats what I was programmed to do by reading certain books.
In dreams I can also walk through walls, ghost like - doesn't mean I'm floating about in the real world.
What are those substantial differences that can't be missed? As somebody who experiences both OBEs and lucid dreams I'm always interested in the differences that I myself can't find.Quote:
Originally Posted by User
But another night you may have an OBE and find out that you're able to speak to your relatives without problems. And yet another night you may have an OBE and find yourself totally immobile. Or you may find yourself unable to go through walls and having to manually open doors.Quote:
One time I had an OBE and I was watching what my family were watching on TV. Though I wanted to, I couldn't speak to them. I became annoyed and jumped back in my body to talk to them about the show. I know this is totally subjective, but for what it's worth, it does prove my point and why I agreed.
Experiences differ from night to night, it's not possible to always know why something was possible in one dream and impossible in another one. Your inability to talk sounds like an issue with failed "dream control" (in the sense of successfully imitating daily life behavior) and not necessarily like another type of dream.
But it all probably boils down to the amount of experiences. After you've had hundeds or more and have seen all kinds of combinations, you'd stop beeing so keen on strictly categorizing them. Or wouldn't you?:eek:
P.S. Nice nick :)
I've been into OBE's a a year before starting on LD's (without any succes with the OBEs :() I read on "astralsociety.us" about some people doing experiments with their OBEs to check if they were really in the "Real time zone" or in a dream-environment. One of the experiments would be to take a random card (poker-card/Gambling-card what is it called in english?) out of the stack and without looking at it placing it on a book-shelf above head-height - the following night while having an OBE the person would float up and look at the card and see the exact color/number - after waking up you could easily go to see if they actually were in the "Real time zone" or were "only" dreaming.
This experiment is can easily be clarified by others if you live with a person, with whom you share the "common" (ahem...) interest of astral-matters you could ask this person to pick a card and place it on the shelf - and this person could then verify whether it was the right card or not (making the experiment much less subjective)
On this forum I was refering to the experimenters had a high succesrate - it could be fun (maybe even groundbreakingly interesting) to try this experiment on this forum. The next time i have a false awakening or a "dream" that takes place in my bedroom I will be sure to look at the card which I'm going to put on my bookshelf.
I must admit that I don't get so many FA's and the OBE-alike dreams I have had, I have had a very hard time to control my body (unlike a "normal" dream) so it could take some time before I can return with results on this;)
They "claim" to have a high success rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by TJuulsgaard
It is a very simple experiment. One wonders why no one from a legitimate scientific background has been able to do the same in controlled conditions.
Out of interest I had a quick peek at the website.
Here's how they describe onset sleep paralysis:-
Quote:
What then takes place is a sort-of dissociation from my physical body, the onset of a relaxed and tranquil state of being, increased pressure and noise in my head (detailed elsewhere on the forum] and what I can only presume is the full bodily-awareness of my spirit self.
However, last night, I began to experience something akin to energetical threads flowing up my back, at which point I would concentrate on them until a dispersing occurred at the nape of my neck, followed by an energetical ejaculation that was exceedingly pleasant, and slightly ticklish.
Speaks for itself really.Quote:
The vast majority of budding projectors tend to experience the heart-racing phenomenon as a precursor to projection separation. Myself included (indeed, it was, aside from actually successfully projecting, what got me into energy work).
As I'm sure you realize when you sit down and properly analyze it -- irrespective of the anxiety you feel -- the heart racing was not of your physical heart. It was your heart chakra.
Heres a fairly typical rationalisation for when Astral Travelling becomes, y'know, dreamlike:-
I don't doubt the subjective nature of their experiences. But objectively, they're believing what they want to believe, and not the simples and most likely explanations.Quote:
Shortly I began flying uphill. After cresting the hill and passing over the baseball field I quickly descended downhill. From this point on, for the next five to ten minutes, the area was completely unfamiliar. Either the OBE had become a dream or else the RTZ-ethereal landscape was much different than the physical area. Either way nothing else of much importance happened and I flew around for five to ten minutes until the OBE ended.
Honestly, theres not enough boards like Dreamviews on the web.
There are however a large number of astral travelling sites.
Again, give the statistically significant number of people who claim to be able to astral travel, one wonders why this hasn't been validated under controlled conditions.
Yes people wants to believe and they are believing in astral-projection - you, Moonshine" are believing in Lucid Dreams -so you colour everything with a Lucid Dreaming brush. You have to have an open mind, but off course you need to be skeptical and don't rush into believing anything/everything.
When I first came to Dreamviews.com I had my set of Astral-projection-glasses on and read anything through that belief-system, now I'm not quite sure which is more right.
You shouldn't just write off Astral projection by looking on a forum. There have been some scientific experiments, especially in the 70's - I've read about them in a book by Ian Currie which is called "You cannot die" (I believe that it is what it is called in english - I read it in danish.) And he explains alot of experiments on the subject - most of them were succesful and the results couldn't be explained by anything else than OBE's were really taking place. The only doubt there could be was whether the subjects maybe had used ESP - to see what was inside a box - they did have readings that showed some kind of change in the room, as if "something" was there. I believe there was also a clock involved, so the OBE'ers could see the time and then they could compare the readings in the room with the time of the reading.
The OBE-expert Robert Bruce recently talked about doing scientific research on the subject - but said that there is no money to do it - to do scientific work you need to have a lot of subjects and test to be labelled as scientific proof. There is just not enough economic interest on the subject even Robert Bruce who is the number one author on the subject doesn't sell that many books. It is still quite a niché-market.
Still IF there was some scientific proof - would the world really believe it as real or would they just shake their heads in disbelief, because it would really turn everything they believe in upside down. See how many wars belief and religion are guilty of to this day.
I have an example of a wellknown public known man in Denmark, Ralf Dorset, who decided to live without food in 120 days and live only by the source of "light" - which should be quite possible according to some people. He did this - and believed that every media in denmark would turn their big cameras to him, but despite being on tv on a night-show and in the news - the interest faded before it began - he experienced that people he talked to about the subject were moderately interested, but soon started to talk about something else. As if they didn't knew or acknowlegded how if "living of light" were for real, which great impact that would have to THEIR belief-system. But NO - the world isn't ready for these things yet.
The question is do you WANT to believe - because if you read enough books the evidence is already there.
You're talking as if the two are equal and opposite. They're simply not.
Its like Creationism vs Evolution. You can read about both. Doesn't mean one isn't a complete fabrication.
One point you haven't addressed is the fairly typical Astral Travelling type discussions from the website you linked.
Strange elaborate descriptions of what we all know is simply onset sleep paralysis.
And a jaw droppingly intellectually bankrupt rationalisation of how when astral travelling the "real world" can suddenly take on dreamlike transformations.
Honestly, I once read somewhere that whilst you may note strange differences in your bedroom as you float above your sleeping body (for example extra windows) these are perfectly normal and reflective of the "subtle plane".
Come on, you have to admit this is suspect.
To have a conscious OBE you have to go through the same SP-process as when WILD'ing - so it depends on which way you look at it - even if it is the same symptoms doesn't mean that the outcome couldn't be different.
I believe that the heartbeat-racing you can get when WILD'ing really is the heart-chakra and not your heart beating. I have had absolutely incredible heartbeat-racing, when I first started to learn how to go into SP. Now I don't get it any more, just as I was told by "OBE'ers", because my heart-chakra is now more energized and evolved as according to doing energy-work.
You are absolutely right that of course some, maybe even many of the so called Astral-projecters are merely experiencing dreams, but I'm very convinced that some of them really are out of their body sometimes.
Remember it only takes ONE true astral-/etheral-projection (OBE) to make it true. 1 billion false ones doesn't make it less true.
I still think that you should be a bit more open-minded to this subject - what if you tell somebody about LD's - do they "buy" that or rather can they grasp the concept?
the problem with these arguments is all the same.......your definitions
these arguments premise that dreams take place in the mind, and astral projections take place outside of the mind.
ask AP forum and they will tell you that dreams are APs. This becomes very confusing because we know dreams take place in the mind. So how can they also call the dream an astral projection when astral projections are 'outside' the mind?
the answer is another question. the answer and question is the nature of mind itself
if you believe mind to be an isolated event, it's own little island disconnected from the world, then you believe the astral projection proposes that it is happening in a 'place' outside of the 'mind'. and since you are calling it a place outside of yourself, you expect any and all evidence of the astral to be of a place outside of yourself.
it's like the age old view of heaven, where behind the stars is it?
but if you take the time to study the beliefs of astral projection, as on astral dynamics, you would realize they aren't proposing that the astral is a place entirely outside of yourself.
actually it proposes that the astral is a landscape of the mind. that every cloud and tree it has it has because someone thought of it. the difference is in AP the mind is not an isolated event. It is the landscape of a sum of minds.
And when you experience the sum of minds, you experience what you consider to be a reality. You consider it a reality outside of yourself because you are experiencing and seeing things you didn't 'think' of. But your mind is still apart of this landscape. Which makes the AP dream-like. Or the dream an AP.
The astral an illusionary sum of thoughts, emotions, and memories. A hollographic mind created reality. Before AP, we had dream yoga. And like dream yoga, AP proposes the same is true for waking reality. That waking reality is simply the sum creation of thought. That waking life is just another kind of dream.
You have to keep this perspective in mind when talking about the nature between APs and dreams. The question isn't where you went, but whether you connected to another mind. Whether you can experience someone elses thoughts. Whether reality CAN be holographic or not.
The other challenging part is understanding how can mind become to be perceived as a reality
While in a dream you are running around in what you experience to be an environment. An environment that feels like its happening outside of your being. Although we say the dream is in your mind, we have a small problem. Because while you are running around in this dreamed up environment, you still have a MIND in the BACK of your mind.
I mean really think about it. Unless you are lucid you would never know that this is all taking place in your mind. Yet how can you know its taking place in your mind, when you still have a mind in the back of your head???
You can even still think and imagine things in the back of your mind and never perceive it in the environment of the dream
There is no easy answer to this phenomenon
One confirmed case in controlled conditions from a legitimate source. ThatsQuote:
Originally Posted by TJuulsgaard
all I'm asking for.
I am open minded - which is why I've been able to consider all the evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by TJuulsgaard
Being able to convince anyone of anything is hardly a ready reckoner.
I mean, banks and estate agents were able to convince people that house prices could you go on rising for ever and ever. Look how that turned out!
But for what its worth, yes I believe it is in fact much easier to convince people of Lucid Dreams having the scientific knowledge and evidence to back it up. (Lucid dreaming has been the subject of legitimate research don't forget.
Juroara,
With all due respect, I don't think you're being honest about Astral Travelling Dogma. Travelling through a magical realm made from the sum of all though isn't the same as being in your own mind.
I'm willing to bet that Astral Travelling and the like has been around long before Lucid Dreaming was succesfully demonstrated in the lab.
Which is not to say people haven't been lucid dreaming, or similar, for much longer.
What we have is this elaborate spiritualist scheme, created, in an earlier time, to explain the unexplained. Yet thinks have moved on. Science and understanding, as always, have continued to develop.
The Earth is no longer the centre of the know universe.
So what do we end up with:-
Astral Travelling and WILDS have, fundamentally, the same induction techniques.
WILDS have sleep paralysis.
Astral travelling has transfers of energy across chakras in your astral body as it recharges in the astral plane (or some such).
WILDS can have false awakenings, because in the back of your mind you expect you should stand up in your own bedroom.
ASTRAL Travelling: you stand up in your own bedroom. What else would you expect.
In WILDS your room may be different because its a dream.
In ASTRAL travellin your room may be different because of the effect of the astral plane.
In WILDS you may not notice differences and inconsistencies because its proven that your brains logic centres are shut down during REM SLEEP.
In Astral travelling you eccept everything you see because you're Astral travelling.
WILDS can generate a feeling of being out of your body, because in a way, you're actually out of your body.
Astral travelling generates a feeling of being out of your body because your acually out of your body (Apparently).
WILDS include dream like experiences, because they're - y'know- dreams.
ASTRAL Travelling includes dream like experiences because of the "subtle plane" where the real world and the Astral world overlap.
Anyone with an open-mind would consider the above and have severe doubts about the veracity of the Astral Traveller explanations.
Not to pour cold water on the theories, but this common Astral Travelling experience sounds an awful lot like "waking up" to me.Quote:
Many end with a feeling of suddenly "popping" or "snapping" and sometimes a "pulling" back into their bodies; some even report being "sucked back" into physical form.
People trust scientists like gods. We learn at school what they discovered as dogmas and never question them, their authority (even if invisible) can't be greater than now. If they said something is real and provided proof, I'm sure there'd be no big problem with believing it, given enough media coverage. An initial shock maybe, but it would wear off.Quote:
Originally Posted by TJuulsgaard
Religious people don't refuse from things like microwave oven and computers, all inventions of the damned science. I'm sure they'd incorporate new findings in their own belief systems, too, rather than deny them.Quote:
See how many wars belief and religion are guilty of to this day.
Hm I think that what you're talking here is not the world, but journalists? Nobody will know a thing if somebody else won't write about it widely. And journalists care for ratings. So the question is if that man managed to prove what he wanted or not. There's a big difference between an unproven idea that only freaks care about and a sensational experiment. :)Quote:
As if they didn't knew or acknowlegded how if "living of light" were for real, which great impact that would have to THEIR belief-system. But NO - the world isn't ready for these things yet.
All comments coming from everybody makes perfectly good sense - the question all comes down to personal experiences and belief-systems - lets not start a war - but agree on disagreeing to some extent :) (I like a nice discussion)