Could astral projection really be lucid dreaming?

I've tried to astral project several times before I knew about ways to induce LDs. It seems to me that most of the methods people advise for astral projection and OBEs are the same as WILD and HILD. They all seem to say to lay supine and stay very still...some mention vibrations, some mention a heaviness coming over your body...these are all things I've heard as part of LD tequniques too.

I've also never succeeded in astral projection, but I've WILDed before. So...could the people who clame to be experts in OBEs and such really just be lucid dreaming? They want to have an OBE so much that they just go into the dreamscape and think they're astrally projecting?

This is just something that came to me and it could be right or wrong, but does anyone have any thoughts on it?

To simply answer your question: Yes

Many lucid dreams I have start out like a typical OBE. Actually not so much anymore, because since I have moved, my WILD begins with me in my old home (my old room). I can will the dream to begin in my current room so that it is like the traditional OBE. But from experience, if they are indeed separate from eachother, I have found them to be similar. I've had hyperawareness occur in lucid dreams, very euphoric lucids once in a blue moon, but nothing the brain isn't capable of...

But your question is more a spiritual question, or a question of what exactly our mind is, and if it exists separate of the physical brain. If it does, then are there separate non-physical realities which our mind can tap into and relay information back to our physical brain so that it may processed into our memory? Not to dissappoint you, but there is not a single person who can answer this solid evidence today.

basically, yes. Thus the whole..."split" on the issue.

Uh, no. To LD you have to believe you are dreaming, to AP you can believe it is real. Both have different chararistics. Can it be dreaming? yes. You don't call normal dreaming Lucid Dreaming. It could or could not be a different type of dreaming, but it is in no way Lucid Dreaming, you got to be kidding yourself if you believe they are the same thing and there is no evidence to even suggest AP is just LDing, not to mention things you make dissapear in AP, where as LD they don't. I've read some of AP and what makes it seem as if it's a dream is the Succubus. How does one of those know what the woman of your dreams looks like? it just glances over and somehow "knows"? it is something your sub con definatly would know.

Unless you rely on belief to categorize AP as something separate from LD, they are the same. There is nothing to stop you from believing AP is something more, but all signs point to them being the exact same thing.

There are definitely different types and intensities of lucid dreams. Some people claim that vivid, stable lucid dreams really transport your spirit to different planes of reality, while low level lucids still occur in your mind/ the dream plane. This never made sense to me, but enough people believe it that you have to recognize it as a belief system.

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Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

Unless you rely on belief to categorize AP as something separate from LD, they are the same. There is nothing to stop you from believing AP is something more, but all signs point to them being the exact same thing.

There are definitely different types and intensities of lucid dreams. Some people claim that vivid, stable lucid dreams really transport your spirit to different planes of reality, while low level lucids still occur in your mind/ the dream plane. This never made sense to me, but enough people believe it that you have to recognize it as a belief system.

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Like i said, it can be a different type of dreaming.

The techniques are very similar because in both you change your focus and data stream from this physical virtual reality to another non-physical virtual reality.

It could be quite possible for an individual to believe that he had an "Astral Projetction" when he instead had a very vivid and realistic "lucid dream", where the main "criteria" were met. This do of course not negate the other.

If one ever get to experience the out of body, one should try to validate it. Either get information that would otherwise be impossible or do experiments to explore the nature of these experiences.

100 percent yes.

I've enjoyed really trippy WILDS which I might readily have decided were OBE's to the Astral plane, if I had been more ignorant of the mechanics and science of dreaming.

2 things to always consider-
WILD and OBE induction techniques are nearly identical.
Dreams are driven by expectations.

Get a handle on the above, and the answer is logical and clear.

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... if I had been more ignorant of the mechanics and science of dreaming.

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So what are the mechanics and science of dreaming?

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Originally Posted by blade5x

So what are the mechanics and science of dreaming?

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....oh if only there was a website dedicated to discussion of the same.

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Originally Posted by likeomgwtf

I've tried to astral project several times before I knew about ways to induce LDs. It seems to me that most of the methods people advise for astral projection and OBEs are the same as WILD and HILD. They all seem to say to lay supine and stay very still...some mention vibrations, some mention a heaviness coming over your body...these are all things I've heard as part of LD tequniques too.

I've also never succeeded in astral projection, but I've WILDed before. So...could the people who clame to be experts in OBEs and such really just be lucid dreaming? They want to have an OBE so much that they just go into the dreamscape and think they're astrally projecting?

This is just something that came to me and it could be right or wrong, but does anyone have any thoughts on it?

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While it's true that astral projection/obe could be a form of lucid dreaming itself, there are a many recorded stories/cases in which real time events have been accurately perceived while the person was allegedly "projecting his astral body". These cases have not been scientifically studied...until now. There is a study going on which is being called AWARE (AWAreness during REsuscitation). The study is being conducted by a group of scientists who've seen/heard/read a myriad of testimonies about patients being out of body only to witness live events taking place...some of these stories too startling and highly questionable to easily dispute and categorize as a "lucid dream".

http://atwaterndenews.blogspot.com/2...ear-death.html

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Originally Posted by Jeff777

While it's true that astral projection/obe could be a form of lucid dreaming itself, there are a many recorded stories/cases in which real time events have been accurately perceived while the person was allegedly "projecting his astral body". These cases have not been scientifically studied...until now. There is a study going on which is being called AWARE (AWAreness during REsuscitation). The study is being conducted by a group of scientists who've seen/heard/read a myriad of testimonies about patients being out of body only to witness live events taking place...some of these stories too startling and highly questionable to easily dispute and categorize as a "lucid dream".

http://atwaterndenews.blogspot.com/2...ear-death.html

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Yeah.....heres one of mrs Atwaters books:-

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"Beyond the Indigo Children" is the first major study of today's children, and their place in our rapidly changing world, that combines objective research with mystical revelation and prophecy.

In the book, Dr. Atwater illuminates the talents and weaknesses of these brilliant and irreverent kids born since around 1982. She explores the relationship of the new children to the prophecies in the Mayan calendar and other traditions, providing extensive background information about the seven root races, and the great shifting of consciousness already underway. She reveals the connection of the seven root races to the seven chakras, and how the fifth chakra – the chakra of will power - will refine itself in the human family as the new children grow to maturity. She also discusses the phenomenon of soaring intelligence and undeveloped potential, and provides concrete guidance and tools for those who seek to understand and help the new children achieve their full potential.

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Not really someone I'd accept as a viable source of unbiased scientific research.

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Originally Posted by moonshine

Yeah.....heres one of mrs Atwaters books:-




Not really someone I'd accept as a viable source of unbiased scientific research.

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This is my fault. I've read many links on the study via GOOGLE and it was never my intent for you to take the link I posted above as THE link where the study was being done and who the study was being headed by. The content of the study is on that lady's blog but as to who the lady is...I don't know, I just know she has no part in the study whatsoever.

You can google the AWARE studies yourself and find more credible links.

http://www.impactednurse.com/?p=671

DV link where I first read about it some months back: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=66063

It has been pretty much proven that people can still take in sensory input when they are asleep or near death. This is really only surprising in NDE cases, when the person seems to be brain dead, but is later found out to be aware of his surroundings. This is freaky, but really only puts into questions our definition of "brain dead."

The current study where they are looking into whether people actually float above their body is the interesting one. If they get a few credible accounts of what is hidden up on the ceiling, it will be truly hard to explain. I can't wait to see how it turns out in the next few years.

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Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

The current study where they are looking into whether people actually float above their body is the interesting one. If they get a few credible accounts of what is hidden up on the ceiling, it will be truly hard to explain. I can't wait to see how it turns out in the next few years.

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Neither can I. Think about all the religious implications that would ensue. I'm tracking this study closely and will keep this forum posted with the latest news.

Anyone who takes Atwater as a credible source is just as crazy as she is, she's one of the most biased people i have ever seen! she also refuses to believe in science, and makes up her own BS.

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Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

It has been pretty much proven that people can still take in sensory input when they are asleep or near death. This is really only surprising in NDE cases, when the person seems to be brain dead, but is later found out to be aware of his surroundings. This is freaky, but really only puts into questions our definition of "brain dead."

The current study where they are looking into whether people actually float above their body is the interesting one. If they get a few credible accounts of what is hidden up on the ceiling, it will be truly hard to explain. I can't wait to see how it turns out in the next few years.

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The Aware Project is going to be pretty intresting indeed.

I wanted to say that I've had the opposite question

I learned about WILD and other techniques before I learned about astral projection. After learning about AP, I realized a number of lucid dreaming techniques are actually AP techniques.

At the same time, I was having these lucid dreams that defied everything I thought a dream was or wasn't. Such as, dreams NOT following expectation when that is the golden rule of dreams. It got to the point, that even though I was aware that I had fallen asleep, I still found myself questioning "Is this really a dream? Or is this reality?"

That's when I began to question, what if some lucid dreams are astral projections?

Of course, I don't have any proof. And there will NEVER be objective proof to offer. So I turned to some simple psychology-dream techniques. You should be able to ask a dream character something about yourself. And the dream character should answer truthfully because the dream character does know you very well. They are you! Or at least a manifestation of your subconscious right?

I thought gee, that's ingenious. And thought of a few questions to ask some dream characters.

I have a good vivid dream. Very life like. And I go and harass some dream characters. They seem confused and bug off. I harass the dream character some more, follow them across town. I won't leave them alone until they answer my very simple question.

And they just keep telling me "No, no. No I don't know"

One time I was frustrated and yelled "You're my dream character, you're supposed to answer me!"

Then the dream character yells "No! No! I'm not your dream character! I don't even know who you are!". They run off again. And if I find them in the dream, they run from me.

Which is really funny to think about if it was an astral projection. I just scared the shit of some innocent astral being.

I can only compare one dream with the next. That's all I can do. And some dream characters do smile sweetly and say "Yes I am your dream character"

They don't try to run away from me like I'm a lunatic. Instead when ever they acknowledge they are my dream character, they stop what ever they are doing - even if they were previously attacking me. They just smile and stare at me, as if waiting for me. Waiting for what? I figured they were waiting for me to ask them more questions.

And if I find myself at a loss for words, they try to give me some clues. Sometimes they point something out in the dream. After all, its my subconscious, it knows what I should be asking.

What can I do? But compare one dream character to the next?

One time I got something very different. In a most vivid dream, I got into this conversation with this guy. He ends the conversation saying "this is my dream!". It didn't occur to me at the time that he thought I was HIS dream character.

Instead his words caught me off guard, so I just say "Huh?". After that we go our separate ways.

See me through his eyes. Did I look like a real person?

Let's say he really was a real person. How would he know that I was a real person too? If I didn't argue with his statement? If I didn't say "wait a minute, this can't be your dream. It's MY dream!"

The astral is believed to be a real OBJECTIVE reality. Well how do we define an objective reality? We define it as a reality shared between more than one conscious being right? More or less?

So first we need more than one conscious being. Well how do we decide when a dream character is in fact a conscious being outside of ourselves?

How?

Is it how they talk, how they act? If they tell us something we didn't know? If we see them in several dreams? If there is a continuity between you and this dream character? When they remember you from a previous dream? When you remember them?

How?

How can science give us the tools decide who is and who isn't real? When science tells us our waking life, our hallucinations, our dreams are all experienced the same in the brain? Signals, signals, signals. Our physical brains then don't give us the capacity to decide one reality from the other. Instead our waking reality is real to us, because of memories. Because of continuity. Because it's still there the next morning.

Memories and continuity. A sense of the past connected to the present. That is how we define what is real.

Dreams seem to be this unique one time deal that disappear when we wake up. Every night we dream some place new. Every morning we wake up in the same place we fell asleep in. So in comparison dreams lack continuity.

Astral projectors however claim they can revisit the same place, find it exactly the same. And visit the same people, again and again and again.

This creates memories. This creates continuity. This compells the individual to view it as reality. It's only our human nature.

Now what?

:meditate:

Too many people jump the gun and say that AP'rs are just lucid dreaming.

But heres something a lot of people don't realize. AP gurus teach lucid dreaming as well as astral projecting. They don't deny lucid dreaming. Many see it as PRACTICE for astral projecting. That includes Tibetan Dream Yoga. Where the dream yogis lucid dream as practice before traveling to other worlds.

I think it's naive to think that these AP gurus are just idiots and don't know what a lucid dream is. They do. They are very well educated and experienced in lucid dreaming. And it's because they are experienced with lucid dreams that they are able to claim "this experience can not be defined as a lucid dream". You can only say that if you are well versed in lucid dreaming.

Maybe the problem is people who practice AP aren't as well versed in lucid dreaming as they should be. If you are aren't, how can you say it wasn't......just a dream?

Juraora,

Some accomplished lucid dreamers can frequently revisit the same place too.

I wouldn't take the variability of DC behaviour as any indication of their existing on another plane or otherwise. Its a dream. Theres no rules.

Wow, lots of responses :) Thanks guys, this is making me smarter. Haha. I'm really new to this stuff.

a friend of mine says that lucid dreaming is a training ground for astral projection.

now, i have no idea what is possible - i'm still trying to have at least one sustainable lucid dream, but one of my motivations for lucid dreaming is to share dreams, or visit people in their dreams.

is it possible? i'm leaning towards "probably not", but only because i have not seen or experienced proof of it, and it's likely just a trick of the mind.

the scientific community also says that it's not possible, and when they speak, i listen. but i think it's important to note that they don't know everything.

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Originally Posted by juroara

Memories and continuity. A sense of the past connected to the present. That is how we define what is real.

Dreams seem to be this unique one time deal that disappear when we wake up. Every night we dream some place new. Every morning we wake up in the same place we fell asleep in. So in comparison dreams lack continuity.

Astral projectors however claim they can revisit the same place, find it exactly the same. And visit the same people, again and again and again.

This creates memories. This creates continuity. This compells the individual to view it as reality. It's only our human nature.

Now what?

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I have to agree with Moonshine that this can be done in LD's too. Having continuity of experiences does not need to point to AP. Besides, I would call LD's "reality" too, since these dreams are really there, arent they?

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Originally Posted by Jeff777

While it's true that astral projection/obe could be a form of lucid dreaming itself, there are a many recorded stories/cases in which real time events have been accurately perceived while the person was allegedly "projecting his astral body".

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There are just as many example of the same thing happening in normal dreams as well. Most notably dreams of loved ones dying when they actually do die at aprox the same time as the dream.

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

There are just as many example of the same thing happening in normal dreams as well. Most notably dreams of loved ones dying when they actually do die at aprox the same time as the dream.

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Or maybe alittle after they wake up the person they dreamed about dies. Which is WEIRD! Makes you think "wtf is this shit?".

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Originally Posted by moonshine

....oh if only there was a website dedicated to discussion of the same.

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Right, discussion on what we think the mechanics and science of dreaming are. But as you put it, if you were ignorant to them, you must have the exact answer(s) to the mechanics and science of dreaming, so please enlighten me. ;)