Can someone clear up information about shared dreaming?

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10-15-2009, 08:20 PM
Supernova

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonshine

Doesn't sound very open spirited to me.

He said discuss, not debate.
10-16-2009, 12:42 AM
Baron Samedi

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Is shared dreaming possible?

Unfortunatly, as much as i would LOVE for it to be possible, I think it's a bit of wishful thinking and trying to make coincidental events fit around beliefs.

But, I think you're pretty safe in your dream privacy.

For shared dreaming to be real, you have to make a LOT of big assumptions about physics, the human mind, the universe etc. which don't actually have any standing in observable reality.

Right. And the dreamworld does not exist in any standing observable reality. It is all hearsay.

If you do manage to have a shared dream, I would however love to hear about it. Despite being skeptical, that dosn't mean i don't want it to be true, because it woud be a fantastic thing if it were!
Just, I'd rather not play make believe, like they seem to do in the DDT.

You would love to hear about it? Then check out the shared dream journal in my signature.

[QUOTE=spaceexplorer;1195734]Yes because obviously, one person out of over 6 billion currently allive (and the billions who have died before us), who happens to post a dream journal on one forum, which could very easily be either falsified, self deluded, or just simply mistaken... is all the evidence you need to prove dream sharing.

Falsified, absolutely. Self-deluded, if I had mutliple personality disorder. Mistaken? Completely impossible.

Anyone can write ANYTHING they want on a forum, for ANY reason they want. With virtually no comeback in their own personal lives. But also, lets not ignore that someone making impressive claims, also has a lot to gain... they gain respect, friends, authority on the subject etc.

Respect? More like ridicule. Friends? No more than I would have without this "ability" which I think we all have. Authority on the subject? People in other cultures have been deliberately sharing dreams for thousands of years, yet in Western culture we dismiss them.

So for very little personal risk, someone, who we know nothing about, who may for example, have a rather unfulfilling and unsocial real life, could come into this forum, and make whatever claims they want.

Absolutely.

So sigh as much as you like, but one persons claims are not proof.
If Nomad really can have shared dreams, and it is as easy as he claims...
Then i'm sure he would be happy to demonstrate this claim in a way which consitiutes as proof.

I'd be more than happy to attempt to dream share with him, and in that dream tell him a piece of information only i am aware of.
If he can then during waking life demonstrate that he knows that information, that would be a big step towards demonstrating his credibility.

Really? So what are you willing to attempt to do try and dream share?

Writing a dreamjournal, unfortunatly offers nothing.
I myself could start a dream journal and make whatever claims i wish.
That wouldn't make those claims true either.

Well, if you were to write in your dream journal consistently, then it would be easier to share dreams with you.

Sure, it's good to trust our fellow human beings, and I'd hope that Nomad isn't out to fool people.
I'll offer him the benifit of the doubt, that he genuinely believes what he shares.
However, that still dosn't mean his claims are genuine.
There could be all number of reasons that he may have misinterpreted his experiences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I've always been into the idea of shared dreaming, i've had a couple of unusual seemingly shared dreams in the past, so I'm aware that the experience of a shared dream can certainly feel convincing, what the explanation for the experience is, remains a mystery. The only way to demystify it is to have solid examples of the genuine sharing of information that couldn't be known by the other party.
A shared dream scene, theme, or script, whilst a convincing experience to those involved, could easily be the result of something other than a genuine meeting of minds in the dreamstate.

So, when are you going to tell us about your seemingly shared dreams? I'd love to hear about them.

If for example, Nomad or another self proclaimed shared dreamer, could share a dream with say, myself, and in that dream I were to give Nomad my bank PIN number, and then the next day on the forum, he were able to provide that number... that would be a compelling bit of data in favour of a genuine shared experience. If that could then be repeated successfully under conditions which rule out foul play, then the evidence would start to become pretty solid indeed.

That would only convince you.

At which point, you'd be able to revolutionise modern science and theories of the consciousness, probably making a great career for yourself, whilst at the same time educating and improving the world we live in. Not something to be sniffed at!

What many people seem to totally misjudge about me, is that I do not play devils advocate with the intention of being a spoil sport. I do it, because like many of you, i would love to believe, I would love such things to be true. By asking hard questions, and requesting verifiable proofs of claims, i'm not looking to be a pain in the arse, I'm looking for someone to offer something compelling in FAVOUR of shared dreaming. If someone can offer evidence, I would be the very first person, to jump in at the deep end of the subject, and dedicate my life to learning more about it.

I always thought scientific exploration was formulating hypotheses first, then, experimenting to see if it was true, and gaining as much evidence as possible. So, why don't you try it first?

It wouldn't be just some curiosity for me on a forum, it would be something that would be revolutionary in the world, and utterly worth exploring in total depth and dedication.

If this is REAL it is utterly utterly AMAZING and needs to be explored fully.

If it is not, then it is a huge waste of time and energy, both of which us mortal humans don't have much of, so it is a precious commodity, not to be wasted.

So with such high stakes, I really wish people would consider more often being the devils advocate, to keep pushing for more and more solid evidence. If the phenomena is real, then it shouldn't be a problem, the truth should not be effected one bit by difficult questions, in fact the truth should embrace them, because it reveals itself more fully when pushed hard.

See above.

Difficult questions are the friend of truth and the enemy of lies.
So when people get defensive, when you start asking difficult questions, that is a worrying signal, it makes you wonder if they genuinely believe the claims they are making.

ramble over :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Seriously,
If you genuinely believe in this...
Why on earth would you not be desperate to get this proven, and improve the world we live in?
It would change lives, change science, change the way people view each other and the planet we live on.

Shouldn't you be chasing down scientists yourself?
Rather than squandering this world-changing, science-reinventing discovery on playing dream games with friends?

I don't think it's anything new. I think science has just ignored it because of many people have been doing this for thousands of years. I'd much rather there be hundreds or thousands of shared lucid dreamers in the Western world, all talking about it, than chasing down scientists because I don't think what Raven Knight and I are doing is really that special.

Seems very irresponsible to me, sorry but it really does.

It's the equivilant to discovering the cure for cancer, and also discovering the cure has some fun side effect... then just messing around with the side effect with your mates and not doing something good for the world with it.

Interesting that you bring that up. I am pretty sure I know the cure for cancer: high THC hemp oil. I tell people about it all the time. I have not heard of a single person at least reviewing the free movie you can watch on google video called Run From the Cure. People just get pissed off at me when I tell them, or they think I'm insane.

If it's real, it is a revolution to the entire world, and you have a responsibility to share that with humanity.

I do feel responsible for sharing that with humanity. I feel responsible for teaching people who are willing to learn. I do not feel responsible for convincing skeptics. A biologist, a scientist wrote The Sense of Being stared at, which provides a lot of evidence for telepathic communication, but it didn't make the headlines. Things like this happen all the time, but it gets mostly ignored.
If it's not, then you are just deluding yourself and others.

But if it is real, and you choose to use it simply for your own entertainment, that is incredibly selfish of you.

I don't use it for my own entertainment, though shared lucid dreams are amazingly fun and epic. I explore the other dimension. I have had some absolutely terrifying experiences because of it, feeling like my body was being turned inside out, but I still press on despite my fear, because I feel this realm must be explored.

I'm sure there is a university near you, would it really be that hard to visit it, and share your knowledge with the world?

I don't want to be a guru. I don't want accolades or followers. I don't want acclaim. I just want to teach so many others to do this, I fade into the background, and become one of many. If there are many people sharing lucid dreams all around the world, it would be much easier to convince mainstream Western society that it's real.

Just in case my question got buried, what are you willing to do to share lucid dreams with me?
10-16-2009, 10:48 AM
spaceexplorer

Quote:

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Interesting that you bring that up. I am pretty sure I know the cure for cancer: high THC hemp oil. I tell people about it all the time. I have not heard of a single person at least reviewing the free movie you can watch on google video called Run From the Cure. People just get pissed off at me when I tell them, or they think I'm insane.

Um... I really am lost for words on how to answer a statement like that. Well, almost lost for words...
Wow, just Wow. Seriously, did you really just say that?

That statement more than anything else, has pretty much just flushed what little credibility you could have had, completely down the proverbial toilet.

You know the cure for cancer, and it's on google videos, only when you try and tell people they think you are nuts?

Can't really say I blame them.

I'm not suprised people get angry with you, it's offensive and completely insensitve to anyone who has ever lost someone they love to cancer.

But hey, you know how to share dreams AND the cure for cancer...
Yet you havn't spent even one night of your life, entering the dreams of the foremost scientists looking to cure cancer, and share that little nugget of information.

I'm not sure if i should laugh, cry or find you completely offensive?
10-16-2009, 10:50 AM
Baron Samedi

Yet you ignore the question: what are you willing to do to share dreams?
10-16-2009, 10:58 AM
spaceexplorer

Quote:

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Yet you ignore the question: what are you willing to do to share dreams?

I ignore the question?
You've just claimed to have the cure for cancer, sorry but your question seems to pale in comparison now!

Um, to be fair,
By asking that question, what you are doing is putting yourself on a platform above others... who have to then prove to you, "the master", that they are worthy of your "teachings".

But what I am willing to do, and this is not "for you", is to investigate any promising leads, ask difficult but reasonable questions to make sure that those leads are as promising as they sound before investing my time into them, And then follow those leads to their conclusions.

But, um i really shouldn't be wasting your time asking you to "teach us mortals" how to share dreams... when you have the cure for cancer... you know, It'd be selfish of me to waste your precious time, when you could be saving lives and saving the world from cancer. Shared dreaming can wait, until the horrific slow deaths of cancer that plague our species is wiped from the planet.
10-16-2009, 11:00 AM
DreamQueen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supernova

Since Nomad's shared dreaming tutorial, a number of us, myself included have become interested in shared dreaming.. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Yeah let's wait and see what happens :roll: Strange how we haven't seen anything in the headlines since this "amazing" event in 2003... http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...read.php?t=405
10-16-2009, 11:42 AM
Baron Samedi

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I ignore the question?
You've just claimed to have the cure for cancer, sorry but your question seems to pale in comparison now!

Um, to be fair,
By asking that question, what you are doing is putting yourself on a platform above others... who have to then prove to you, "the master", that they are worthy of your "teachings".

But what I am willing to do, and this is not "for you", is to investigate any promising leads, ask difficult but reasonable questions to make sure that those leads are as promising as they sound before investing my time into them, And then follow those leads to their conclusions.

But, um i really shouldn't be wasting your time asking you to "teach us mortals" how to share dreams... when you have the cure for cancer... you know, It'd be selfish of me to waste your precious time, when you could be saving lives and saving the world from cancer. Shared dreaming can wait, until the horrific slow deaths of cancer that plague our species is wiped from the planet.

You say you want to share dreams. You say that if I know how, I should do an experiment with you. How am I supposed to do this, if you don't want to try?
10-16-2009, 12:22 PM
mowglycdb

MMMM ok , this topic doesn't ask if Shared dreaming is true or not. It's assuming it does exist and is asking about details of shared dreaming , so spaceexplorer... stay on topic.

Shared dreaming is mostly about merging creations and uniting energies, that's in a broad way of looking at it.
10-16-2009, 12:32 PM
spaceexplorer

Quote:

Originally Posted by mowglycdb

MMMM ok , this topic doesn't ask if Shared dreaming is true or not. It's assuming it does exist and is asking about details of shared dreaming , so spaceexplorer... stay on topic.

Shared dreaming is mostly about merging creations and uniting energies, that's in a broad way of looking at it.

Oh i'm sorry, who made you moderator?
They don't seem to have updated your profile to reflect this yet.
Oh, right, you're not a moderator...

And clearly you didn't read the original post,
which very blatantly states: "So, is this real?"

So before you come riding in on your high horse, telling people what they can and cannot discuss, It really would be wise to get your facts straight, rather than having to walk away, with egg on your face, looking a bit silly.
10-16-2009, 12:35 PM
mowglycdb

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Oh i'm sorry, who made you moderator?
They don't seem to have updated your profile to reflect this yet.
Oh, right, you're not a moderator...

And clearly you didn't read the original post,
which very blatantly states: "So, is this real?"

So before you come riding in on your high horse, telling people what they can and cannot discuss, It really would be wise to get your facts straight, rather than having to walk away, with egg on your face, looking a bit silly.

heehee lol, I suppose I should. But I can do whatever I feel like and physicly capable of doing, so can you. =p

Anyways I think someone would get bored , listening to so much personal considerations of why it doesn't exist.
10-16-2009, 12:39 PM
spaceexplorer

Quote:

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

You say you want to share dreams. You say that if I know how, I should do an experiment with you. How am I supposed to do this, if you don't want to try?

Ok let's do an experiment, if that is an offer?

To do so, We're going to need you to explain the scope and limitations of your claimed abilities as clearly and as specifically as possible, what you believe is and isn't possible.

Once we've established your terms, we can work out an experiment that abides by your abilities, but is also free from foul play.

I would absolutely love for you to prove to be right about this, I really would.

Things that may or may not be relevant are:

Is your shared dreaming ability limited to two people being in REM sleep at the same time? or do you consider dreaming to not be restricted to our usual waking limitations of time?

What kind of information can be transfered within the dreamstate?

What do you believe you require in order to make a connection with another dreamer?

There may be other factors but we'll address those as we go along, but these seem most pertinent.
10-16-2009, 01:08 PM
moonshine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supernova

He said discuss, not debate.

Doesn't sound very open spirited to me.
10-16-2009, 01:09 PM
Baron Samedi

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Ok let's do an experiment, if that is an offer?

To do so, We're going to need you to explain the scope and limitations of your claimed abilities as clearly and as specifically as possible, what you believe is and isn't possible.

Once we've established your terms, we can work out an experiment that abides by your abilities, but is also free from foul play.

I would absolutely love for you to prove to be right about this, I really would.

Things that may or may not be relevant are:

Is your shared dreaming ability limited to two people being in REM sleep at the same time? or do you consider dreaming to not be restricted to our usual waking limitations of time?

What kind of information can be transfered within the dreamstate?

What do you believe you require in order to make a connection with another dreamer?

There may be other factors but we'll address those as we go along, but these seem most pertinent.

Cool. I am glad you want to do this. I am going to start a new thread though, because we have strayed from the original topic.
10-16-2009, 01:13 PM
spaceexplorer

Quote:

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Cool. I am glad you want to do this. I am going to start a new thread though, because we have strayed from the original topic.

My thought exactly.
Good plan.

Oh and moonshine, I may need your help to review any experimental designs, or just give some input... oh and Onus too, if either of you read this!
10-16-2009, 02:04 PM
The Cusp

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Is your shared dreaming ability limited to two people being in REM sleep at the same time? or do you consider dreaming to not be restricted to our usual waking limitations of time?

An REM state shouldn't be necessary, and since there is no way to synchronize two people to be in REM together over the internet, it's not really relevant.

If one person is in an Non-REM state, that could affect how stable the dream appears to them, and also how lucid they are. Low lucidity could be a problem. It's not unheard of to encounter another dreamer and they are just too stubborn to get lucid.

Nomad ran into me the other night and all I could do was mumble drunkenly about wanting to sleep. I don't remember that, but only because I was so tired that night.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

What kind of information can be transfered within the dreamstate?

As far as I know, the only info that can be transfered are archetypes. Conversations seem to get through often, but I don't have enough data to say for sure how good the "fidelity" would be. Things can look diffrently in dreams, so by the same logic they could sound diffrrently to each observer as well.

Two dreamers who have similar archetype structures are going to have similar dreams. But pairing up a skeptic and a true believer is going to produce some major difference in perspective for both dreamers.

It's already obvious both sides are incapable of see what the other sees (generally speaking, not singling anyone out), but this would be really obvious in a dream.
10-16-2009, 06:22 PM
moonshine

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Cusp

An REM state shouldn't be necessary, and since there is no way to synchronize two people to be in REM together over the internet, it's not really relevant.

If one person is in an Non-REM state, that could affect how stable the dream appears to them, and also how lucid they are. Low lucidity could be a problem. It's not unheard of to encounter another dreamer and they are just too stubborn to get lucid.

Poppycock. NREM and REM "dreams" are quite different. Theres some bleed in the transition zones but NREM are "thought" dreams not the virtual dream worlds that someone might move
through - if such a thing were possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Nomad ran into me the other night and all I could do was mumble drunkenly about wanting to sleep.

Well isn't that a coincidence. :roll:
10-16-2009, 06:25 PM
moonshine

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Oh and moonshine, I may need your help to review any experimental designs, or just give some input... oh and Onus too, if either of you read this!

A pointless endevour I feel. Without controlled validatable conditions its just Nomad typing on the internet...as he has done to date.
I suspect Nomad likes the attention more than anything else.
10-16-2009, 06:30 PM
spaceexplorer

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonshine

A pointless endevour I feel. Without controlled validatable conditions its just Nomad typing on the internet...as he has done to date.
I suspect Nomad likes the attention more than anything else.

Well read my experiment and make your own mind up.

I am more than happy to give it a try, under the conditions i've outlined in the other thread. Which are fair and sensible i believe.

I am more than happy to give someone a chance.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=85208
10-16-2009, 06:53 PM
nina

The Cusp...I find your ideas about Shared Dreaming very difficult to comprehend. You are stating that two people could be sharing a dream, yet never realize it because they are both perceiving completely different "archetypes" and experiencing things entirely different from the other. It's like, based on your description, ANY dream could be claimed to be a shared dream...and there will never be any way to actually prove that it exists because the experience can be entirely different for each individual involved.
10-16-2009, 07:05 PM
The Cusp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquanina

The Cusp...I find your ideas about Shared Dreaming very difficult to comprehend. You are stating that two people could be sharing a dream, yet never realize it because they are both perceiving completely different "archetypes" and experiencing things entirely different from the other. It's like, based on your description, ANY dream could be claimed to be a shared dream...and there will never be any way to actually prove that it exists because the experience can be entirely different for each individual involved.

They both experience the same archetypes, it's just that those archetypes are structured differently for each individual.

But the differences are predictable in their nature. What appears as a horse to one dreamer might appear as a very large dog to the other. But the archetypal shape and general size of the animal is the same across both dreams. One person see's a Denny's restaurant where the other sees a Burger King, both restaurants.

The differences are only superficial, and there is always a clear relation between the two. More likely is two dreamers have a shared dream and don't realize they are in two different dreams. Most of the differences take place below the perceptual level. You'll say did you see the guy in the blue shirt, and the other dreamer says yes. People rarely go into too much detail like how many buttons the shirt had or if it had pockets on the front.
10-17-2009, 09:52 AM
Baron Samedi

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Cusp

They both experience the same archetypes, it's just that those archetypes are structured differently for each individual.

But the differences are predictable in their nature. What appears as a horse to one dreamer might appear as a very large dog to the other. But the archetypal shape and general size of the animal is the same across both dreams. One person see's a Denny's restaurant where the other sees a Burger King, both restaurants.

The differences are only superficial, and there is always a clear relation between the two. More likely is two dreamers have a shared dream and don't realize they are in two different dreams. Most of the differences take place below the perceptual level. You'll say did you see the guy in the blue shirt, and the other dreamer says yes. People rarely go into too much detail like how many buttons the shirt had or if it had pockets on the front.

Here are some examples between Raven Knight and I:

white horse with red mane= black horse with red mane

hill=large rock

Cerebus = Fluffy (from Harry Potter)

orcs = imps
10-17-2009, 10:23 AM
spaceexplorer

Quote:

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Here are some examples between Raven Knight and I:

white horse with red mane= black horse with red mane

hill=large rock

Cerebus = Fluffy (from Harry Potter)

orcs = imps

So you've hand picked the closest matches, which still, arn't all that impressive.
I wonder how many things were completely utterly different and unmatched?

This seems to me to be a case of Newspaper Astrology mentality!

Here's my astrology reading from the other day:

You do have a gift with words but today may find the biggest challenge is understanding a completely differently vocabulary...

Now I could meet a french man... it would seem to be a match.

I could call technical support... it would seem to be a match.

I could discuss a subject with my friend who understands it better... it would seem to be a match.

I may simply find myself being more talkative today... it would seem to be a match.

I could be taking an exam... it would seem to be a match.

I may be taking lessons in a new hobby, like dancing..... it would seem to be a match.

I may have to look after my nephew of 3 years old... it would seem to be a match.

Just goes to show, that the more vague and open ended things are, the more matches the mind can make.

So from one vague sentence, things as different as taking dance lessons to calling technical support, or discussing science with a friend to baby sitting - can all be seen to match.

This dream sharing, seems to be an even more vague association game than Astrology!
10-17-2009, 12:02 PM
moonshine

Quote:

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Here are some examples between Raven Knight and I:

white horse with red mane= black horse with red mane

hill=large rock

Cerebus = Fluffy (from Harry Potter)

orcs = imps

Right. So not the same dreams after all.
What a shocker.
10-17-2009, 01:45 PM
The Cusp

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

This dream sharing, seems to be an even more vague association game than Astrology!

Not necessarily. Those were just examples of the differences, there are parts that are the same. Some things may look exactly the same, but the plot might unfold in a slightly different manner here and there.

Compared to taking two random dreams and looking for similar archetypes, the number of relevant coincidences are much much higher in shared dream.

You have to take into account the things that are the same as well as the archetypal similarities in the "differences". Astrological readings are rather short, and dreams contain much more information. It's not really a good comparison. With astrology you have maybe 2-3 relevant reference points. There are many more than that in dreams.
10-17-2009, 03:06 PM
spaceexplorer

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Cusp

It's not really a good comparison. With astrology you have maybe 2-3 relevant reference points. There are many more than that in dreams.

Which is my point exactly, if an Astrology prediction, with two or three vague statements can seemingly match the random daily events of 1/12 of the population. Then two dreams with hundreds of random vague events,feelings etc. have even more likelyhood of matching in places... especially if you up the vagueness by using the "archetype" smokescreen.

I did a quick experiment with an old Dream Journal, I took a random selection of my own dreams, and then tried to find ways that they could seem to share elements using the Archetype principle. Obviously im not "sharing dreams with myself in the past", but it's astounding how many dreams even with very different plots and themes can have elements that can be artificially considered "linked", if you are looking to find matches.
To make things easier I choose to try and find maches between dreams that occured on the same day of the month... so for example 10th june and 10th july.

Things like:
2/4/09 I am walking down a dark hallway, feeling anxious.
2/5/09 I am walking through a dark woods, feeling uneasy.

or

12/4/09 I'm walking through huge mountains, I feel like i've been here before.
and
12/5/09 I'm walking through a cityscape, noticing how imposing the large buildings are.

If you're going to use the Archetype principle, if these were two seperate peoples dreams, you could easily attribute the difference to "different archetypes", whilst when you do it with yourself, you notice how that suddenly become nonsense... yet the connection remains.

Seriously, I suggest people try this themselves, You'll be suprised how many completely unrelated events, can be made to fit, if you pretend that it's another persons dream and that their "archetype" could be manifest differently.

The Archetype principle is a smoke screen, all it is really doing is this: making excuses as to why specific details arn't needed.

If you remove the need for specific details, what are you left with?
Vagueness.

If you were to apply this principle to waking life, all sorts of sillyness would ensue.
Imagine the police trying to hunt someone down, they have two descriptions:

A blonde man, 5'9, nose ring, short well groomed hair, tattoo of a dove on left arm, slight limp, australian accent.

or

A man with kind of lightish hair depending on the lighting, maybe some kind of jewlery, his hair is neither long nor short, he may have a tatoo of a dove - but it could be an image on his tshirt, or a book he is carrying, or maybe it's the brand of his shoes, or maybe nothing at all. You may notice he walks strangely, but it dosn't really matter, it could have just been uneven ground he was walking on. His accent isn't french.

Which description would leave you with thousands of possible maches, and which would give you maybe a handful?

If you throw detail and specificness out of the window, and consider vague whimsical similarities to be a good reason to call "match", then well don't be suprised if 99% of your dreams seem like you're sharing them.
Just don't expect anyone else to agree with you.

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