Christians here? a question.

[Drifter]

Hey just wanted to get some information about christians here and lucid dreaming. Just wondering how you mix the dream world with your christian lifestyle, do you think being a lucid dreamer takes away what god would want from us as a christian. Cause ive lucid dreamed a few times i stopped practicing it for a while now im getting back into it. I think lucid dreaming is awsome but alot of perverted and evil things happen in lucid dreams. And evil thoughts is something i want to stray away from and i think if i get back to lucid dreaming that it will elevate my desire for evil. Or do some think that lucid dreaming is like a release of some sorts fullfilling certain desires so they dont take over our minds in the real world. Would like some incites here. Thanks.

[Seeker]

I've had this discussion a number of times. If you are a Christian, or the member of any faith that asks you to follow a fixed credo, then you are most certainly not exempt from that credo while in a lucid dream. Non-lucid dreams, well, those are freebies. Being lucid implies that your concious mind is active during the dream, same as when you are awake, meaning that you are bound by the tennents of your faith. You know what is right and what is wrong in a lucid dream, same as when fully awake. I am a Christian and therefore resist the temptation to run wild in the 'consequence free' realm known as lucid dreaming. Note, I say resist. I am no saint and am in no way perfect, but I do my best and know I have forgiveness if I fail. This is my opinion on the matter and I'm sure others will not agree with me on this.

[Neruo]

Lucid dreams are illusions made by satan to make people commit sins. It's true.

[ravenqueen]

I agree with Seeker. If you are non-lucid you really don't have much of a say so on what you dream. However once you become Lucid its your responsibility to decide what you will and will not do. If you do things that are immoral while Lucid its the same as if you are awake. I feel like LDs are good for testing you and your faith in a safe environment though. If you mess up, no real harm done to you or anyone around you. Do your best to resist the things you know are immoral and if you fail like Seeker said know there is always forgiveness.

[Genjyo]

Hi Drifter, I'm also a Christian and have found lucid dreaming to be productive in both dream and waking life. It is always an adventure! Perverted and evil things may happen, but not from lucidity itself. You're only aware of it and because of that, one is able to overcome them, with practise I know . I'm glad you're thinking about improving your state of mind, and like Seeker and Ravenqueen mentioned, just like bad thoughts, they need not take permanent residence! Here's a helpful biblical perspective: 1 Cor 6:12 "Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. Sweet dreams!

[AHiddenSaint]

Originally posted by ravenqueen I agree with Seeker. If you are non-lucid you really don't have much of a say so on what you dream. However once you become Lucid its your responsibility to decide what you will and will not do. If you do things that are immoral while Lucid its the same as if you are awake. I feel like LDs are good for testing you and your faith in a safe environment though. If you mess up, no real harm done to you or anyone around you. Do your best to resist the things you know are immoral and if you fail like Seeker said know there is always forgiveness. I kind of feel different about it because the level at which I can lucid dream. Sometimes I will be aware of dreams, but have false awakenings. During those times I can do things and think I'm really the person there yet I can not control the events happening. Just because we have control doesn't always mean we can control it all the time. When does one decide what is moral and what isn't?

[Seeker]

Originally posted by AHiddenSaint Just because we have control doesn't always mean we can control it all the time. When does one decide what is moral and what isn't? It's not about control, but instead is about being aware. If you are lucidly aware and are being forced to do something against your beliefs, then you are not-guilty, same as if you were awake and being forced to do these things.

[Universal Mind]

If you are a Christian, it seems that lucid dreams would be an excellent means of having face to face conversations with God. You could go with Jesus on a tour of Heaven. You could watch a choir of angels put on a concert and really interesting stuff like that.

[Tom_Peace]

Hey. I choose to believe that God Loves us. God does not command God's self to not do a thing or to do a thing. God would never take away Gods free will. God would never call God's self 'wrong' or 'evil'. We are God.

[AHiddenSaint]

Originally posted by Universal Mind If you are a Christian, it seems that lucid dreams would be an excellent means of having face to face conversations with God. *You could go with Jesus on a tour of Heaven. *You could watch a choir of angels put on a concert and really interesting stuff like that. * Been there and done that

[FluBB]

hmm well i am a christian (well im a mormon but you know..) and i do believe that being lucid doesnt mean that you sorta miss out on oppourtunities and such that you could get from god, but that you gain more oppourtunities. i did do some bad stuff in one of my lucids but then realized later how dumb it was and vowed not to do it again. Because i am still a beginner i think maybe my basic instincts showed up, not really my intelligence. Well in Acts II... i think its 2 : 17 it says something like in the last days your daughters will dream dreams and your sons will see visions and stuff like that. FluBB

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Drifter Hey just wanted to get some information about christians here and lucid dreaming. Just wondering how you mix the dream world with your christian lifestyle, do you think being a lucid dreamer takes away what god would want from us as a christian. Cause ive lucid dreamed a few times i stopped practicing it for a while now im getting back into it. *I think lucid dreaming is awsome but alot of perverted and evil things happen in lucid dreams. And evil thoughts is something i want to stray away from and i think if i get back to lucid dreaming that it will elevate my desire for evil. *Or do some think that lucid dreaming is like a release of some sorts fullfilling certain desires so they dont take over our minds in the real world. Would like some incites here. Thanks. Now, why would a lot of perverted and evil things happen in a Lucid Dream. Ordinary dreams of people who have done very little to improve their dreams will have primitive elements. But the whole idea of being Lucid is to bring Waking Consciousness and a Waking Sense for Morality into one's dreams. If you are having Lucid Dreams where you commit perversions and evil -- Well, STOP IT! You are Lucid, you can control your behaviors. Now, as for the larger question of Lucid Dreaming and Christianity... well, in regards to Spirituality, Dreaming opens up the Spiritual World to the Soul. Some Christians are for this -- the Spiritual Marians and many of the Catholic Religious Orders are sympathetic to Spiritual Development. But the Paulist -- the Catholic Bishops and Secular Clergy (who influence a great many of the Laity, who go to their Cathedrals and Parish Churches and are indoctrinated by the Secular Clergy) and all of the Protestants. The influence here is Paul who taught a largely Anti-Spiritual Religion, the main dynamic of which is that People are simply saved by Faith and from that point one they are instructed to do absolutely nothing for themselves or for others. It surprises me that so few Paulist Catholics and Protestants know what their leaders more or less take for granted, and that is the simple deduction that if all sins are forgiven, then they can fairly well do any damned thing they want. This is how the Bishops were able to stir up that pedophile scandal for themselves, as their doctrine of Original Sin and Forgiveness of Sins simply tied their hands... with such doctrines, pedophilia and worse can only be expected. You see, Christianity of the Paulists cares nothing for the Victims but is exclusively a Religion for the Benefit of Sinners. Many Christians simply assume in their simplistic understandings that Christianity has some moral imperative. Well, yes, that is what Christ taught, but when once Paul's Doctrines are factored in, everything involving Christ's Teachings need to be forgotten.... that is unless one is willing to break from Christianity and become a Marian or some kind of Messianic Jew.

[Seeker]

Here Here Leo! I finally agree with you on something. Yes, lucid dreaming involves conciousness and therefore brings along the obligation or morality. Your paragraph on Paulist teaching brought to mind a somewhat lengthy discussion I had with someone on the subject of sin and forgiveness. He was taking the stand you accused the Bishops of having. Esentially, "The law has been nullified and all my sins are covered by Christs blood, therefore I am free to do what I wish". Well, on the surface, this it true, however, and this is a big HOWEVER! The key point that these people are missing was stated by Jesus himself "Ye must be born again" Being born again entails turning your back on the sinful things that have occupied you up to now and making a decent effort at living a life of love. It does not give you license to do whatever thing your heart desires, but being born again does bring along forgiveness when we fail.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Seeker ...HOWEVER! *The key point that these people are missing was stated by Jesus himself *"Ye must be born again" Being born again entails turning your back on the sinful things that have occupied you up to now and making a decent effort at living a life of love. *It does not give you license to do whatever thing your heart desires, but being born again does bring along forgiveness when we fail. Well, the unfortunate part here is that the reference to being 'born again' comes out of the Gospel of John, a 2nd Century revisionist Gospel written by a neo-platonist Greek or a committee whose purpose was to superimpose a great many paulist doctrines onto the Life of Christ, while also including some Messianic elements that paul probably would not have approved (which is why I suppose that the Gospel of John was written well after the first generation of Paulist had died off, which would allow some bend of compromise that the earliest dupes of paul would have been thoroughly indoctrinated not to consider. Paul tended to speak in absolutes. The Greeks loved absolutes. Being 'born again' was the perfect expression for being made entirely sinless. Yes, it would be nice to hope that people would use the concept of being born again as some encouragement to change their ways for the better. But paul did not stop there. Paul wrote about amoral election -- that independent of any moral considerations, God at the beginning of Time had completely decided who would be Saved and who would be Damned. When one reads that one has absolutely no influence upon one's salvational status, it does take the moral wind out of one's sales. If morality does not matter, then why should one care? Then we have the notion of Grace and Faith. Augustine filled in all of Paul's blanks and what the Church decided paul had meant was that all Righteousness must not come from any exertion of personal will, but must come from Grace. It became quite a sin to TRY to be good. Being Born Again was interpreted to be an entirely passive event. One was to accept without complaint whatever character one would have after Baptism. If God's Grace decided that one would be Born Again as a perverted pedophile then that was that... and with Paul's view of Amoral Election, such would not necessarily keep one out of Heaven. Salvation was amoral. Such opinions are shocking and I can see that people will suppose I exaggerate, but we have only to look to the Campaigns the Bishops conducted against entire Heretical Communities that cared enough to openly rebel against these blatantly irresponsible... morally irresponsible Doctrines. Again and again and again in Church History the Church violently defended the principle of Amoral Salvation against those who argued against Church Sin and Corruption. Then we have the matter that nobody in the History of the Church as ever actually enjoyed a moral regeneration after their Baptism. Ever promised, never delivered. As that wonderful Heretic Pelagius had said, there can be no Righteousness without the Will to Righteousness. No sinner has ever become a good man by Grace alone. It reminds me of Little Johnny and his garden. The nice religious Old Lady came and remarked that "God had grown delightful flowers and wonderful vegatables in Little Johnny's garden", to which Little Johnny replied "Why I think you give God too much credit as when it was just God's affair, it was all just a tangle of weeds".

[Awaken4e1]

Act 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; For what purpose? To teach.

[mbarlowm]

My take on the matter is tied to what it is that constitutes sin in the first place. While I can't define it concretely, for me a big factor is how much what I do affects myself or other people negatively. When LDing, your "actions" only effect you, and that in turn can only affect other people if you establish behavior the dreams that eventually manifest itsself IRL. So, I have had dreams, and even lucid dreams, involving extra-marital sex. I consider this no worse than any thoughts I might have about my not-wife while awake. I attempt to forsake my thoughts or dream-actions, and think/do them no more, lest a habit be formed and I find myself doing the same things IRL. BESIDES, I've found that sex kills the lucid dream instantly. Why do it, if you can instead spend a few minutes flying around, levitating objects, or whatever else?

[Smileyguy597]

How many of you have had desires? I know i have... now when you somtimes think of these desires your brain starts to think about stuff... naughty stuff. If you ever even had a thought about sombody you desire and that thought then went to what you would do with them, then how is that any different than a lucid dream? I believe that we have an obligation to do moral rights and follow the teachings that the bible tought us. What commandment does it break? You dont hurt anyone and nobody thinks wrong of you. I do believe that when you go through life you have to live with the thoughts of what you did, and that can be a heavy burdon. Your brain doesnt know the difference between real life and memory so if you do bad things in your dream just remember that when you wake up you may be satisfied at first but as the days progress you will begin to feel dirty and all those feelings of pleasure will be replaced by disgust for yourself and your pitiful little dreams... So next time you feel the urge to... you know... think about the consequences that will occur in the times to come. Think about how you will deal with yourself. the only time i think that this practice in lucid dreams will be acceptable is when if you dont do somthing you might hurt yourself or do somthing that will hurt another person. That is my opinion on the subject, what is yours?

[Casualtie]

Lucid dreams are illusions made by satan to make people commit sins. It's true. [/b] O RLY

[Amethyst Star]

While this forum is unmoderated, please try to keep the senseless banter where it belongs. Hmm... this is an old thread. What I would want to say has already been said by Seeker and Genjyo.

[Neruo]

I was actually going to post something exactly similar to what I allready posted. This is indeed an old topic. My point with it was, that it's is silly to think lucid dreaming makes you more evil. If you dream of sick stuff, that is just becouse it is in your head. Doesn't even mean you agree with it. I can dream of myself killing midgets just becouse I saw a movie about it. It is really silly to think lucid dreams are occult or something.

[Amethyst Star]

I don't think any dream is inherently evil persay. With lucid dreams, one is accountable for the actions over which they have control. However, if something comes up that you had no intention of having happen, that's kind of a grey area but I wouldn't fault someone for that. As for non-LDs, while I consider the things that happen in them as uncontrollable, I do consider them to be indicators of the things that are going on in our lives and in our minds. They sometimes may bring to our attention things that we are not consciously or consistently aware of, thus allowing us to learn from them.

[Sapphire]

I am Christian too, I like dreaming of calming or beutifal things rather than say, going on a killing spree or fighting a war. Examples: Climbing a mountin. Turning into a fish, dolphin,whale ect and swimming around, flying, walking through a mountain forest.