about consciousness (WILDers, read this)

[Kromoh]

bah, another epic post from me, what a joy Do you know what consciousness is? No you don't Bah when I say you don't, then it's because you don't. Well, it is simplier than you think Let's take our start with an example of uncosciousness: a dog. A dog walks, plays, barks, does his will and all. But a dog is not conscious.. why?? A dog thinks. Yes, almost every living animal thinks, no matter how primitive their thinking is. But what is the difference between thinking and thinking consciously? What is it to be conscious? The word is self-explanatory. Being conscious is being aware that you are thinking. Let's draw this into a scheme: A dog: Action <- Thought A human: Action <- Thought <-Thought So that is it. Being conscious is not only thinking, but thinking about thinking. When you think about what you are thinking, you realise what you are thinking, and so you become conscious of it. Consciousness is the ability to think not only of the action, but of your own thinking. For this, humans are the only ones who can "think to themselves", or in other words reasoning. Consciousness is deeply connected to inteligence. The human ability to be conscious came up because we got smart enough to "think double". To make it simple, thinking is being drunk. Being conscious is knowing that you are drunk. Why do we lose consicousness while asleep? That is simple: when we sleep, our brain reduces activity. With less "work" going on the brain, we cannot "think double"; so we don't think about our own thoughts anymore. That makes us unconscious. Having that in mind, it is somehow easier to stay conscious while WILDing. It is simple: don't lose track of your thoughts. Always "watch" them, so that you stay conscious of them. A curiosity We already saw the scheme of consciousness. I'll put it here again: Unconscious: Action <- Thought Unconscious, because we don't think about thinking. We are not aware that we are thinking. We just think, and that's it. Consciousness: Action <- Thought <-Thought Conscious, because we know what we are thinking. We are lucid of ourselves: our own actions have a reason. Something interesting about consciousness is that opinions, and judgement happen in this level of consciousness. For instance, th thought that killing is bad is conscious. Someone unconscious cannot think that killing is bad (at least not by himself) Double-consciousness (or enlightenment if you prefer it): Action <- Thought <-Thought <- Thought As I stated above, our judgement and interpretation happen in the conscious level. Well, the double-consciousness (sometimes called enlightenment by monks) is knowing that you judge, and knowing that every thought of yours is subjective. In this level of consciousness, there is no more judging. For sure, people practising this get smarter, since "tripple-thinking" involves more inteligence. Guess that's all. Hope you liked my views.

[Graysong]

Nice post, really got me thinking... Makes me wonder what types of super-consciousness that could exist outside our own understanding.

[Kromoh]

just a thing. as proven by I-dunno-who, perception grows in geometric progression which means that, once conscious, it is easier to reach enlightenment from unconscious to conscious: 2x brain activity (2/1) from conscious to double-conscious: 1,5x brain activity (3/2) from double-consicous to tripple-consicous: 1,3x brain activity (4/3) ...

[Fornax]

Very interesting. This triple-think concept you're using to explain the mental state of enlightenment is really intriguing. I agree with you for the most part, but I would't go so far as to say a dog has no consciousness. Because how can one know for sure? One has to experience - if only for a second - how a dog thinks, lives, breathes, eats and so on.. to claim something like that. just a thing. as proven by I-dunno-who, perception grows in geometric progression which means that, once conscious, it is easier to reach enlightenment Which also implies that a dog cannot ever reach enlightenment. But maybe a genetically engineered dog can (Superdog!).

[Kromoh]

Well, I just took it as an example, I didn't really want to make any scientifical claim (that dogs have no consciousness) And I don't think it implies anything. I just stated that a certain amount of inteligence (just like in a IQ measure) is needed to reach a higher level of consciousness. Again I'm not claiming anything, but (supposing dogs are not conscious) dogs would have to become conscious before reaching what I defined as "enlightenment". Again that is just an assumption. Who knows if dogs are alien beings who are here to help us :O

[Fornax]

Now let's suppose there are even higher states of enlightenment. When there is no more judging in the state of "normal" enlightenment (triple-think-state) then how can an already enlightened human being ever recognise that he has ascended to another level? Do you think there are higher states of enlightenment? Something only a god-like being with superhuman intelligence can reach? I'm thinking of a mental state that is so far beyond our understanding that we cannot ever comprehend it. A way of thinking that is ultimately not human. Again that is just an assumption. Who knows if dogs are alien beings who are here to help us :O That was my little pet theory for ages but I was afraid to talk about it with anyone! I still wait for the day this is scientifically proven and accepted as common knowledge (But then again: What if the aliens are even more stupid than a normal dog ...? Someone has to start a thread about that! And then another one on how the "music" of Kevin Federline affects the world climate )

[dodobird]

Yea your idea is great. I feel like it can be developed much further though, if you work on it. And like Fornax, I didn't like the example of the dog, coz I'm an animal rights fanatic and don't like it when people say they aren't conscious. But I accept your response to Fornax post, and again I think your idea is cool.

[Kromoh]

Now let's suppose there are even higher states of enlightenment. When there is no more judging in the state of "normal" enlightenment (triple-think-state) then how can an already enlightened human being ever recognise that he has ascended to another level? Do you think there are higher states of enlightenment? Something only a god-like being with superhuman intelligence can reach? I'm thinking of a mental state that is so far beyond our understanding that we cannot ever comprehend it. A way of thinking that is ultimately not human. I really don't see anything that makes higher levels of consciousness impossible. For example, when a monk gets "enlightened" he usually won't notice until he "comes back" and sees the difference. But still I believe it is possible to develop consciousness above the levels I mentioned. @dodobird: I intend to work on it on my book (bah you know what I'm talking about)

[Fornax]

For example, when a monk gets "enlightened" he usually won't notice until he "comes back" and sees the difference. I wonder if there are levels of consciousness, that, once you've reached them, you cannot come back from...

[RooJ]

Very interesting post, I've thought along the same lines about self awareness and conciousness, now to come up with a great technique to utilize this information. Edited

[Tornado Joe]

Hi Kromoh, nice post I think the amount of steps of concsiousness may be limited only by our understanding of space/time (universe). Following your formatting, I see it like this: That first action is simply matter or energy - it is in constant existence and movement. Hence, action. Having intent or thought behind that action leads to control of that action - as opposed to chaotic or spontaneous action. When that first thought is noticed, (with the second thought)there is a presence, or consciousness. So far, all everything's pretty much the same. action<--thought<--thought. Now, to become aware (enlightented) of this presence, one needs to be able to observe the consciousness (the action<--thought<--thought). Observing requires some detachment of what you're looking at (much in the way that you can't "see" your own eyes if you're looking through them). So, this elightened thought has to somehow happen from an external point. Where (or when) is this external point? How many external points are there? If the third level of thought happens from some astral plane or parallel universe, then how many other planes are there? As far as space, we understand there's planets, solar systems, galaxies, and finally the universe. That's why I say there's a bit of a limitation to how many thoughts, within thoughts, within thoughts we can comprehend. It's like them hollowed out wooden doll things - the kind that you open to find another doll, then open that doll and there's one inside wich contains yet another one within it, and so on and so on. There has to be a previous doll to observe the next doll.

[Kromoh]

I wonder if there are levels of consciousness, that, once you've reached them, you cannot come back from... I don't know about that, because things such as sleep can make you slow down. But surely there is a level of consciousness that you wouldn't want to come back from. Actually i think that the secodn level is already it (monks spend their lives doing it once they get there - they wouldn't be doing it if they liked simple consciousness) Now, to become aware (enlightented) of this presence, one needs to be able to observe the consciousness (the action<--thought<--thought). Observing requires some detachment of what you're looking at (much in the way that you can't "see" your own eyes if you're looking through them). So, this elightened thought has to somehow happen from an external point. Where (or when) is this external point? How many external points are there? That detachment is the reason why, when enlightened, you don't judge anymore. And bah it is harder than it sounds to reach enlightenment. Think about it: it is easy to observe your thoughts and all, but to tell whether you are or not conscious is another thing. Thanks for the development on the topic as well.

[H Savvy]

They're called Matrioshka Dolls. Just so you know

[Tornado Joe]

Heh, thanks Savvy! (I knew they were either Russian or from Holland or something). I was discussing LDs with some other lucid dreamers once and one of the guys mentioned something about the feeling of becoming a point of white light. I think we were talking about whether OBE's were merely dreams about leaving the body, or even just another state of consciousnes. Maybe that's what this enlightenment is. I can't remember if he was speaking of experience, or relaying something he had heard or read - but this point of view about consciousness seems to fit. It's like, you are aware of your self by knowing that you think ("I think, therefore I am" sort of thing). You identify your physical body in this space. So what would be the next step? Seeing your body AND the consciousness of that body in yet another space. What would that look like? Well, for one, you would no longer be IN your own body - so perhaps this "white light" is the energy that everything around us is made up of. There is no such thing as a "solid" object - everything is made up of energy (magnetism, electricity, gravity, etc). So, what if through deep meditation, (or lucid dreaming) we are able to shift or transfer our focus INTO this energy. It seems that would be the only way to be able to look AT the physical body and consciousness we walk around in. Hmmm.... I feel like I'm rambling now. It made sense for like a few seconds - then I got lost! LOL

[magicdood]

Well, enlightenment has nothing to do with thinking, actually. Well I guess you could say that being conscious of thought might help lead you to enlightenment, but enlightenment is the liberation from the mind. You are freeing yourself from thought. Not only are you becoming conscious of thought, you are freeing yourself. Now, I understand that you can still have thoughts, they will just be non subjective, as you stated. Also, yes, I believe there are different levels of consciousness, but that you can come back from all of them, except maybe enlightenment but I'm still unsure of that. Also, Enlightenment is losing the attachment to physical things. You lose the attachment and identification with your physical body, so no you would not identify with your body in this space. Also, we don't walk around in consciousness, we are consciousness. ^^^^ personal beliefs! As for the actual consciousness post, I liked it a lot! Brandon

[Kromoh]

Well talking about consicousness and elightenment is kind hard to do without going against some life philosophies. About what you guys said about enlightenment. I've experienced it myself, and you get really detached from your body. I mean completely detached. You can walk, dance, do everything.. but you don't feel like so/don't have a reason to. It's like you are indeed more peaceful when thinking of nothing and you try to do so. However, since enlightenment is no really usual to us (we don't have enough brain capability i guess) it can be hard to stay in that stage. However, once you have been there, you know what it is, and tha tcan be considered enlightenment aswell. It's like the different between having sex and not being a virgin anymore. (I can assure it is just good as, or maybe better than sex itself :O) Edit:magicdood (below) didn't like my "disclosed"s so i changed them

[magicdood]

You don't get "disclosed" from your body, perse..you just lose the attachment to it.

[Tornado Joe]

I've experienced it myself, and you get really detached from your body. I mean completely detached. You can walk, dance, do everything.. but you don't feel like so/don't have a reason to. Ok, Kromoh - so what path did you take to reach this enlightenment? Meditation, lucid dream.... How long did it take? How much time did you spend in that 'zone'?

[Kromoh]

it was vacation and I was at the beach house with my family well there were only girls there. i'm the only male cousin, and all the male adults weren't there so it kind of got to my head there was this time when i was so annoyed with them (a month with several girls is tough) that I started thinking to myself and refused to talk to them one momen,t when I was angry, I started to think of how ignorant they were, and how dumb was their behaviour.. bah, you know the kind of thoughts you have when you are angry well what happened eventually is that suddenly I realised i was conscious. I realised not only what I was thinking, but also that I was conscious about what i was thinking.. kinda hard to explain it's like suddenly a great silence takes over your mind, and you see everything that happens in your head clearly I stayed that way until early evening, and decided to forgive them afterwards pretty much like a trance i'd say

[dsr]

Kromoh, you're definition of consciousness is right -- i.e. that consciousness is the state of being knowing that you're thinking (compare an LD with a non-lucid dream). However, your dog analogy is rash, anthropocentric, and misguided. You have no evidence that humans are the only animals with an awareness (a "being" or "subjectivity"), and there is certainly evidence that dogs can reason. While it would be impossible to prove whether or not their ability to reason translates to them being fully "conscious", the affirmative seems much more likely. The species of great apes other than humans (gorillas, orangutans, chimpanzees, and bonobos) are almost as intelligent as we are, but they lack our vocal abilities and, therefore, never evolved spoken languages, which thus far has prevented them from becoming doctors of philosophy. I'm sure Jane Goodall would vouch for their consciousness as would anthropologist and Chantek's trainer Dr. Miles. Most scientists would argue that great apes, cetaceans, and elephants definitely appear to be conscious of themselves; other mammals and certain birds (especially parrots and corvines) probably are conscious of themselves; even cephalopods might be. I didn't read the bulk of this thread, so I'm sorry if someone else beat me to this and I didn't acknowledge their post.

[Kromoh]

well dsr, I know that apes are way smarter than other species, and that they, as well as other species, could by chance be consicous too and I stated in a later post of mine that the dog was just an imaginative example: I wasn't making any scientifical claim sorry if I sounded harsh towards animals, it was pretty much just like an analogy and personally I believe that (most) animals are not fully conscious as we are. they could have phases or periods of consciousness, but i don't think they are conscious all the time (like we are, except in sleep of course)

[dsr]

Well, I do think that certain animals (e.g. the said great apes) are self-aware, but you are entitled to your own opinions. And like we both have stated, the dog was just an analogy (a not-so-good one IMO) and I still agree with your overall description of consciousness. I remember having read an article about the orangutan Chantek, but I didn't actually look through the Wikipedia page before I posted the link. Now that I'm looking through it, I see a very relevant paragraph: Chantek also demonstrates self-awareness, by grooming himself in a mirror and by using signs in mental planning and deception. Rather than simply exhibiting conditioned responses, as critics of primate intellect contend, Chantek has learned roles - and role reversals - in games like 'Simon Says'. Like many other orangutans who have demonstrated problem solving skills, Chantek exhibits certain intuitive and thinking character traits comparable to the rationality used in human engineering. His intellectual and linguistic abilities make some scientists, including Dr. Miles, regard him as possessing personhood.

[Tornado Joe]

there was this time when i was so annoyed with them (a month with several girls is tough) that I started thinking to myself and refused to talk to them one momen,t when I was angry, I started to think of how ignorant they were, and how dumb was their behaviour.. kinda hard to explain it's like suddenly a great silence takes over your mind, and you see everything that happens in your head clearly Sounds like the fraction of a second before losing it! LOL - glad you kept your cool though. Could have gone either way

[Spamtek]

I would have to say you ought to refine your definitions here. I don't have a problem with saying that humans (and a handful of other intellectually gifted species) are self-conscious, but to me consciousness is simply the state of experiencing - anything. That being said, dreaming is still a state of consciousness, as is (unaptly named) unconsciousness, because even while comatose your lower brain still is aware of certain stimuli regarding involuntary nervous system functions and is still able to make primitive decisions governing those functions (breathe in, breathe out, in, out, etc.). And that being said, I think consciousness is a sliding scale of awareness that descends down to the lowest-order single-celled creatures all the way up to us, and potentially very far beyond that point if ETs are out there somewhere. I don't think redundantly reflexive thought creates super-consciousness nor is it the path to enlightment. When I take the time to think about something, and then think about that thought, and then to think about that thought about that thought, it quickly spirals into an exponential spike of awareness... but far from being enlightening, I find it kind of tiring and usually quite wearying. For instance, there are lots of situations where self-consciousness really hinders you - performing a routine, doing a speech, even just everyday chores that you want to get done without worrying about your every movement and every thought. In my day-to-day functioning, blasting into self-consuming cycles of self-consciousness really destroy my ability to get through things effectively because there's no easy way to descend from thinking about thinking about thinking about thinking about thinking about thinking about the juggling trick you're doing right now, or the term paper you're supposed to be writing. Even in situations where it theoretically ought to be useful (like meditation), I find myself rising to that state of infinitely fractal self-awareness and then wondering "well, great... what now?" and eventually cranking my mind down a notch to a simpler state of awareness, like listening to my breathing or trawling my thoughts (but not trawling my observation of those thoughts, nor that observation either).

[dsr]

Kromoh was explaining the state of self-awareness. It's fine if you define the word "consciousness" to mean something different, but that doesn't change Kromoh's explanation of self-awareness---i.e. the difference between thinking and knowing that you're thinking or thinking in a dream and realizing that you're in a dream.