The Infinite Universes of Lucid Dreaming

Much of what I'm about to tell you is conceptual -- a way of viewing lucid dreams.
Take it in any way you please.

_________________

The Stuff of Dreams

Three years ago, I discovered a tool that would prove to be the most powerful I could ever imagine: Lucid Dreaming.

When I first found lucid dreaming, many ideas of what I could do sprang into my mind. I could fight alongside elves for the protection of Middle Earth, I could join Neo as he cleansed The Matrix of its programmed agents, Most of all though -the thing that I really and truly wanted- I could carry on an alternate life within the dreamworld.


Alas! I've yet to complete any of these things.
Though I have talked to an elf, I had to make him appear outside of my front door. Though I have "kind of" been in the Matrix, it wasn't really "the Matrix" at all, just a half-assed consciously created replica.

I didn't work my ass off to get lucid dreams just so I could have "half" experiences. I want the real deal; I want to be able to visit the land of Mordor and actually feel the need to hide from the giant all seeing eye.
I don't want to be god... I want to be a traveler. I want to be just another person in a sea of people, to be able to immerse myself in a culture that never truly existed.

I want what I worked so dammed hard for.


How to Get It:

For three years I've tried to figure out how to achieve this type of realism. Finally, after all this time and all this searching, I've pieced it together.

To understand this fully you must first understand how I believe dreams are created.

I think it was LaBerge that first used "schemata" to explain how dreams are formed (don't quote me on that of course).
(You may want to look over the contents of that link before continuing)

Basically, what happens is that as your lying there sleeping an image will come up in your mind.
Lets say this is an image of a pencil.

Your mind will begin to build a scene around this image of a pencil using your subconscious set of schemata.
Lets say that when you think of a pencil you think that it should be sitting on a desk.
When you think of a desk you think of school.
When you think of school you think of that one hot teacher you used to have.
When you think of that teacher you think of how you used to always worry about getting an erection in her class.

Using these schemata, your mind has built a nightmare wherein your standing in that hot teachers classroom with an erection and everyone is laughing at you.


This is how all dreams are born and perpetuated. They use your deepest expectations of what "should be", then build a vivid scene and storyline around it.

________________

Now that you (hopefully) understand how normal dreams are formed, it should be easier for you to understand how lucids work:

Lucid Dreams:

In a lucid dream, the same rules apply. Except now theres a key difference: now your consciously in control of your expectations.


Infinite Universes:

When most DVrs enter a lucid dream the first thing that pops into their heads is something along the lines of:
"omfg ! omfg! I'm in a lucid dream and I need to try and stabilize it before it breaks down on me and then I'll be awake and my lucid dream will have been lost oh no! oh no!"

I ask you, why would your dream suddenly "break down" just because you became lucid? That doesn't make any sense at all. I mean, we dream many times every night of the week.
Those dreams don't just randomly break down.


The reason our lucid dreams are breaking down like that is because we're making them break down.
Your dreams run on your expectations. When you expect that the dream could break down at any given moment, and that in order for it to be vivid you MUST yell out words or something like that, your creating laws within your dream!

Over your time reading about lucid dreaming and experiencing lucidity for yourself, you've built your own little universe thats titled: "Universe Lucid Dream".
Within Universe LD all the things that you "know" about lucid dreaming, have become laws:

• Sex to orgasm "nearly" impossible
• Hard to fly
• Can't turn on light switches
• If you get too excited you'll "overload" your brain and wake up
• etc etc

All these "laws" are in effect in Universe Lucid Dream.

These things aren't laws of the dreamstate. They are laws that we as a community have created for "Universe Lucid Dream".


Again remember. The only reason these things are laws is because deep down, you expect them to be laws. Your putting these restrictions on yourself by only having your LDs in the universe that we as a community of lucid dreamers have created: Universe Lucid Dream.

______

Do not fret. Now that you know what your doing, there's an easy way to get out of universe LD.


Realize that all the rules you've ever learned about lucid dreaming (can't have sex too long, they don't last long at all, etc), only apply to universe LD.

Now realize that there are an infinite number of other universes in your mind. Here's some examples:

• The Matrix Universe
• LOTR Universe
• Harry Potter Universe
• "Real Life" Universe
• Anime Universe
• etc

Each of these Universes already exist. All you have to do is find a way to enter them (a portal).
"Portals" can be anything. You could jump through a mirror, or tear open a rift in time and space, perhaps you could just kill yourself and resurrect in whatever universe you please.


How To View These Universes:

Don't see them as extensions of your lucid dreams.
They are full fledged universes all on there own. Just like every normal dream you have is a full fledged universe of its own.

They have their own laws, their own geography, their own everything. Your not creating anything.
You don't even have to worry about them ending because of something you did. Universes don't just end, thats illogical.

Of course, REM limits the amount of time you can stay in a universe. Just as the need to sleep limits the amount of time you can stay in real life.
Don't worry about how long your REM period is going to last (how long you have until you have to go to sleep), just dwell in the moment and calmly do whatever you want.


Think of the reality your in right now.
Real life is solid; its fundamental laws don't just change.

Lets say I'm walking down a hallway in real life and I see a "hump" on my couch as I walk past the doorway. Do I suddenly run in terror thinking that that hump is a massive spider thats about to attack and slay me?
Fuck no.

I would try to reason away the hump:

1. My doors are locked so it can't be a robber
2. This is real life so its nothing supernatural
3. I'm the only person in the house
4. I have no animals
5. It has to be a wad of clothes that someone threw on the couch without folding

You see, I did a check with the rules that were established in my current reality to logically see what the "thing" was.


You do the same thing in the universes that you visit in your lucid dreams.
In "lucid dream universe", that hump could literally have been anything. The rules said there were no rules.

If I had been having a normal dream about how all the women in the world wanted to sex me up, that hump would have been a sexy woman.

If I was in a lucid dream and in "real life universe", that hump was just a wad of clothes.


Take the facts of the universes you enter: the laws, and build your expectations around that.


More examples:

• I see a small cylindrical object laying on the ground

If I'm in Universe Real Life, that object must be a stick.

If I'm in Universe Lucid Dream, that stick could be any terrible thing I could imagine.

If I'm in Universe Harry Potter, that stick is a wand that some careless first year dropped.

• The ground gives way beneath me and I plummet down to earth

I'm in Universe Real Life, I can do nothing as gravity pulls me ever downwards to my eventual death.

I'm in Universe Cartoon, I float in midair until I quickly run back to the solid ledge

I'm in universe Superman, I'm a kryptonian and I fly away.

_____________________

You get the idea.

Its all about how you react to the stimuli your dream provides.


Remember that you can also create your own universes with their own special laws (A universe where car tires are not susceptible to friction?)
When you first get lucid, your already in a universe: whatever universe the dream you were having is in.

You could just stay in Lucid dream Universe, and slightly augment its laws to make it so that you don't have to worry about overexciting yourself and waking up.


The possibilities are literally endless.

____________

Oh, and just in case I wasn't clear enough on this point:
The universes are actually universes. You can't be in Universe Real Life and suddenly have superpowers. Thats illogical, and would conflict with that universe's laws.

Laws of universes do not change. Unless you go through a portal to a new universe, the laws will remain intact forever; no matter what.

Questions and Answers:

This is just some of the questions that have come up in this topic.

______________

Quote:

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Originally Posted by calh

Very interesting stuff!

I just have some speculation regarding the expectancy failures.

You say that we have expectations that we might fail certain actions, and that the mere expectation itself is causing it, right? As far as I know, there are actual limitations even if you really believed that you could do it (such as reading).

Some complications occur with a pretty high frequency to some people, examples such as having problems with the motorics of the action 'running'. Or is it just the expectation that you might fail to reach the bus in time, and the motorics fuck you over as it is your worst expectation? Are these motoric restrictions just fallacies, or are some of your brain -functions actually disabled while you dream (I haven't managed to look this up properly).

---

This proves my point fairly well.
Why would running be hard in lucid dreams? At most, it might not feel the same as real running, but it wouldn't be hard to do.

Just because you've never experienced flight (same as forgetting what it feels like) doesn't mean that you can't fly.
Think of the few times you've experience "flight-like" experiences:

• Roller coasters
• Airplanes
• Trampolines
• Swimming

How often does the average person do those things?
Probably a whole lot less often than the occasional sprint/run. But yet flight in lucid dreams is a common occurrence.


All that your doing when you over think lucid dreaming is putting barriers on yourself that are loosely based on real life logic.

______

Reading:

I have read things in lucid dreams more times than I can count.
All I had to do was realize that I was the reason I couldn't read. I had to think back to all those times I've read things in dreams (many), then realize that no fundamental laws of the dreamstate would change simply because I became "lucid".

Where does it stop? Yesterday we couldn't read, today we can't run... Tomorrow you'll find a way to logically explain why we shouldn't be able to breathe in the dreamstate.


If there are fundamental laws of the dreamstate (other than that it doesn't last forever), I have yet to find them, and I hope that if I ever do find them, I'll know enough to not take them as actual biological "laws", but merely things we must learn to work around.


The fact that you are actually conscious when lucid allows you to bypass the expectation that running will feel like your in water, or that flight is impossible.

{EDIT}

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by calh

Yeah this brings up the question about why we don't "bust" our dreams more often. If something happens in a dream that is totally unrealistic, why do we go on with non-realistic explanations, such as logic from fantasy movies?

---

You take that logic as fact, because your schemata tells you to.

As your sitting watching a fantasy movie, your not steadily saying: "omg wtf, magic is impossible!".
Your letting your schemata that are in place specifically for fantasy movies take over. This allows you to sit and actually enjoy the things that if you saw in real life would blow your mind.

When dreaming, your mind interprets the random objects with the best possible schemata. Thus, if you were to see a bright light, your brain would go: "hmm, how often do we see a flash of bright blue light in real life? Very rarely. How often do we see it in one of these other groups of schemata? Fantasy, often."

Then your brain would proceed to use the group: "fantasy" to build the dream.


Remember that you've conditioned yourself to watch fantasy movies and not think twice about the logic behind them.
In the same way, your brain will build a crazy ass fantasy scene and not think twice about your current state of reality.

If you never watched/read fantasy, you would never have fantasy dreams.
Your mind would use other groups of schemata to form the dreams, and thus you would go on following other types of delusions all night long.


When you understand this, its much easier to understand why reality checks and things like Tibetan dream yoga work.

______________

Quote:

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Originally Posted by calh

There is just one thing that I need to clarify: Isn't it so that these infinite universes converge, that Frodo might draw a gun at you? And if they do converge, are they really worth separating?

---

In the normal universe that we always LD in, things can converge like that.
There are no rules that say: "Frodo can't draw a gun". In Tolkien's universe however (the one that he invented and wrote books about), guns simply do not exist.


Thus, if we were to visit Middle Earth in an LD and Frodo were to reach into his cloak and whip out a small shiny object, you would automatically know that it wasn't a gun; guns don't exist in that universe. He would have a dagger, or a potion, or maybe even a small lantern.

Its just not possible for Frodo to have a gun in that universe. They don't exist.


The universes can't simply "converge", because you know they can't affect one another.

_________________

When your walking around in any given universe and you see something that can't exist (ex. your in the movie: "300" and you see a car), you must rationalize that object using the rules of that universe.

Theres no way that could have been a car, cars don't exist here. Take another look, it was just your eyes playing tricks on you: theres horses in front of it, its a carriage.


The thing is, when your in that universe, you won't see a car. Your in no way expecting to see a car, because your in the year 50 BC.
As your walking around in that universe your only thinking about things in that universe.

Its all about "knowing" that things will not change. different "universes" are merely different rule-sets for reality (every universe has its own rule-set, and its own set of schemata that you will attribute towards it).


Do not expect to see things that shouldn't exist. Expect to see things that you know exist (within that universe).

______________

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuxAeterna

I'm still wondering if this great theory is more than a theory: has it worked for you? I don't think you've said yet whether this has allowed you to experience self-consistent, stable universes in your own LDs. Did I miss where you said that it works?

-Lux

---

Yes, it has worked for me in the several times I've gotten the chance to use it.

In my most recent lucid dream I became lucid in a park-like area where it was autumn time.
I did not do any "stabilization" techniques, I didn't yell "clarity now", or even study the ground. I simply became lucid and found myself in this strange, quiet, brisk, autumn-day universe.


The strangest thing happened. Since I "knew" that I couldn't lose lucidity, I didn't; even without doing any type of technique to "ground" myself. I walked around, looking at birds flying around in the trees and just generally relaxing.
Eventually I found this odd depression in the ground, it looked like a small crater or something. It was the perfect shape for me to lay on my back in, so I did.

For about a minute I lay there on my back with my eyes closed, just taking in the birdsong and gentle swishing of the trees; enjoying the cool wind as it blew over my face.

Eventually though my bladder started to hurt, and I decided it would probably be best to wake myself up. :P

_________________

Another example is from about a week ago. I had decided to test the limits of this technique.

I jumped through a mirror and found myself inside of a corner store. There was a riot outside.


For about ten minutes I unleashed hell upon hundreds of random DCs. Throwing fireballs, using superhuman strength, and many other "superpowers".
Again, I did not even once have to "stabilize" or "ground" my lucidity, and the dream was just as vivid as real life.

____

So yes, I have used this method of thought several times to induce some of the most incredible lucid dreams I've ever had.
Like I said in the topic post though, I've yet to visit Tolkien's universe yet... I've only tested out the basics.

Everything that I've done and experienced with it so far says that all that I talked about is easily possible.

sweet stuff, good information for beginners. As far as the "overload" thing goes I hate that, how am I supposed to not get excited i'm about to lucid dream! gah! Good examples too, erection in the classroom, haha classic.

Interesting, I had thought of this already. I haven't actually had a lucid dream yet, but I have plans. I've been reading up on the loci method of memorization. I was planning on creating universes accessible through books in my room (in rl, maybe) with different laws of physics and human history. If I wanted to put myself in a certain scenario, I would either read the book I wanted to emulate again or make it up myself. I figured that I wouldn't really need to make up what it looked like - I could give it a name, such as Middle Ages-type setting, and that's what I'd get. I figure that as long as I give everything a name to be associated with, things would go according to plan.

I never really understood why people asked if things were "possible" in lucid dreams.

BUT I it does depend on your will power, right? If you can't will yourself to believe something could be easy that isn't possible in real life, then you won't be able to do it.

Billy.. I DEMAND an explanation for where you get all the time to write all this stuff...

Quality stuff as usual though. I always like your info tutorials. They're usually pretty easy to digest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arby

Billy.. I DEMAND an explanation for where you get all the time to write all this stuff...

---

Hey now,
It only took about an hour to write :P


Thanks for the comments you three

I stil have not reached lucidity after a month of trying to DILD with reality checks all the time...however, whenever I do finally achieve it I will definately keep this information in mind

Good idea!

Have you had a chance to test this theory? Does it work to think this way?

I really hope so. If I can ever LD with any consistency, I will definitely attempt to put this into practice.

-Lux

Very interesting stuff!

I just have some speculation regarding the expectancy failures.

You say that we have expectations that we might fail certain actions, and that the mere expectation itself is causing it, right? As far as I know, there are actual limitations even if you really believed that you could do it (such as reading).

Some complications occur with a pretty high frequency to some people, examples such as having problems with the motorics of the action 'running'. Or is it just the expectation that you might fail to reach the bus in time, and the motorics fuck you over as it is your worst expectation? Are these motoric restrictions just fallacies, or are some of your brain -functions actually disabled while you dream (I haven't managed to look this up properly).

As you might have noticed, I really like to explore the biological concepts of dreaming, and yours (and LaBerge's) theories are highly appreciated and open up for serious discussions. Thanks again for making my head ponder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by calh

Very interesting stuff!

I just have some speculation regarding the expectancy failures.

You say that we have expectations that we might fail certain actions, and that the mere expectation itself is causing it, right? As far as I know, there are actual limitations even if you really believed that you could do it (such as reading).

Some complications occur with a pretty high frequency to some people, examples such as having problems with the motorics of the action 'running'. Or is it just the expectation that you might fail to reach the bus in time, and the motorics fuck you over as it is your worst expectation? Are these motoric restrictions just fallacies, or are some of your brain -functions actually disabled while you dream (I haven't managed to look this up properly).

As you might have noticed, I really like to explore the biological concepts of dreaming, and yours (and LaBerge's) theories are highly appreciated and open up for serious discussions. Thanks again for making my head ponder.

---

I wonder if running, for all but avid athletes, would be hard to get right in dreams because it's infrequently used or infrequently experienced in depth in real life, much the same reason that touch, taste, and smell tend to be blunted in people's dreams due to the lack of attention given to those senses?

There also tends to be a general dippy/neglectful quality to the brain while dreaming IME, oftentimes even while lucid dreaming. It's easy to forget things, or trip yourself up, or ignore important information.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by innerspacecadet

or ignore important information.

---

Yeah this brings up the question about why we don't "bust" our dreams more often. If something happens in a dream that is totally unrealistic, why do we go on with non-realistic explanations, such as logic from fantasy movies?

Of course, lucid dreaming is all about "busting" these misconceptions about the dreamworld. May it be that deep inside in normal dreams, you "know" that its a dream, but you don't take action (thus giving false logic) because it's a procedure practiced from since when you were an infant? If that is so, the healthiness of lucid dreaming comes into question (not that I follow this hypothesis). Maybe it was harder to lucid dream back in the middle-ages, because of the beliefs in pseudoscience and magic, thus made man more naive. Today we shouldn't have difficulty pointing out whats real, and whats not real. But why can it be so hard to detect this while dreaming?
As Billybob said, it might be because of the universes we set ourselves in to, and the logic within.

Nice one Billybob!

You did that pretty quick from when you started! Did you also get a change to test this theory more?

I will also be testing this theory as soon as I can start getting more Lucid Dreams.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by calh

Very interesting stuff!

I just have some speculation regarding the expectancy failures.

You say that we have expectations that we might fail certain actions, and that the mere expectation itself is causing it, right? As far as I know, there are actual limitations even if you really believed that you could do it (such as reading).

Some complications occur with a pretty high frequency to some people, examples such as having problems with the motorics of the action 'running'. Or is it just the expectation that you might fail to reach the bus in time, and the motorics fuck you over as it is your worst expectation? Are these motoric restrictions just fallacies, or are some of your brain -functions actually disabled while you dream (I haven't managed to look this up properly).

---

This proves my point fairly well.
Why would running be hard in lucid dreams? At most, it might not feel the same as real running, but it wouldn't be hard to do.

Just because you've never experienced flight (same as forgetting what it feels like) doesn't mean that you can't fly.
Think of the few times you've experience "flight-like" experiences:

• Roller coasters
• Airplanes
• Trampolines
• Swimming

How often does the average person do those things?
Probably a whole lot less often than the occasional sprint/run. But yet flight in lucid dreams is a common occurrence.


All that your doing when you over think lucid dreaming is putting barriers on yourself that are loosely based on real life logic.

______

Reading:

I have read things in lucid dreams more times than I can count.
All I had to do was realize that I was the reason I couldn't read. I had to think back to all those times I've read things in dreams (many), then realize that no fundamental laws of the dreamstate would change simply because I became "lucid".

Where does it stop? Yesterday we couldn't read, today we can't run... Tomorrow you'll find a way to logically explain why we shouldn't be able to breathe in the dreamstate.


If there are fundamental laws of the dreamstate (other than that it doesn't last forever), I have yet to find them, and I hope that if I ever do find them, I'll know enough to not take them as actual biological "laws", but merely things we must learn to work around.


The fact that you are actually conscious when lucid allows you to bypass the expectation that running will feel like your in water, or that flight is impossible.

{EDIT}

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by calh

Yeah this brings up the question about why we don't "bust" our dreams more often. If something happens in a dream that is totally unrealistic, why do we go on with non-realistic explanations, such as logic from fantasy movies?

---

You take that logic as fact, because your schemata tells you to.

As your sitting watching a fantasy movie, your not steadily saying: "omg wtf, magic is impossible!".
Your letting your schemata that are in place specifically for fantasy movies take over. This allows you to sit and actually enjoy the things that if you saw in real life would blow your mind.

When dreaming, your mind interprets the random objects with the best possible schemata. Thus, if you were to see a bright light, your brain would go: "hmm, how often do we see a flash of bright blue light in real life? Very rarely. How often do we see it in one of these other groups of schemata? Fantasy, often."

Then your brain would proceed to use the group: "fantasy" to build the dream.


Remember that you've conditioned yourself to watch fantasy movies and not think twice about the logic behind them.
In the same way, your brain will build a crazy ass fantasy scene and not think twice about your current state of reality.

If you never watched/read fantasy, you would never have fantasy dreams.
Your mind would use other groups of schemata to form the dreams, and thus you would go on following other types of delusions all night long.


When you understand this, its much easier to understand why reality checks and things like Tibetan dream yoga work.

First of all, thank you for putting time on the constructive comebacks.

There is just one thing that I need to clarify: Isn't it so that these infinite universes converge, that Frodo might draw a gun at you? And if they do converge, are they really worth separating?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by calh

There is just one thing that I need to clarify: Isn't it so that these infinite universes converge, that Frodo might draw a gun at you? And if they do converge, are they really worth separating?

---

In the normal universe that we always LD in, things can converge like that.
There are no rules that say: "Frodo can't draw a gun". In Tolkien's universe however (the one that he invented and wrote books about), guns simply do not exist.


Thus, if we were to visit Middle Earth in an LD and Frodo were to reach into his cloak and whip out a small shiny object, you would automatically know that it wasn't a gun; guns don't exist in that universe. He would have a dagger, or a potion, or maybe even a small lantern.

Its just not possible for Frodo to have a gun in that universe. They don't exist.


The universes can't simply "converge", because you know they can't affect one another.

_________________

When your walking around in any given universe and you see something that can't exist (ex. your in the movie: "300" and you see a car), you must rationalize that object using the rules of that universe.

Theres no way that could have been a car, cars don't exist here. Take another look, it was just your eyes playing tricks on you: theres horses in front of it, its a carriage.


The thing is, when your in that universe, you won't see a car. Your in no way expecting to see a car, because your in the year 50 BC.
As your walking around in that universe your only thinking about things in that universe.

Its all about "knowing" that things will not change. different "universes" are merely different rule-sets for reality (every universe has its own rule-set, and its own set of schemata that you will attribute towards it).


Do not expect to see things that shouldn't exist. Expect to see things that you know exist (within that universe).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BillyBob

Its all about "knowing" that things will not change. different "universes" are merely different rule-sets for reality (every universe has its own rule-set, and its own set of schemata that you will attribute towards it).

Do not expect to see things that shouldn't exist. Expect to see things that you know exist (within that universe).

---

I'm still wondering if this great theory is more than a theory: has it worked for you? I don't think you've said yet whether this has allowed you to experience self-consistent, stable universes in your own LDs. Did I miss where you said that it works?

Because, it makes good sense, and logically I see no reason why you are not right. But then again, just because it is logical doesn't mean that there isn't actually some function that is impaired in the sleeping brain, which would prevent the practical application of the principals you propose.

So, again, does it work?

-Lux

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LuxAeterna

I'm still wondering if this great theory is more than a theory: has it worked for you? I don't think you've said yet whether this has allowed you to experience self-consistent, stable universes in your own LDs. Did I miss where you said that it works?

-Lux

---

Yes, it has worked for me in the several times I've gotten the chance to use it.

In my most recent lucid dream I became lucid in a park-like area where it was autumn time.
I did not do any "stabilization" techniques, I didn't yell "clarity now", or even study the ground. I simply became lucid and found myself in this strange, quiet, brisk, autumn-day universe.


The strangest thing happened. Since I "knew" that I couldn't lose lucidity, I didn't; even without doing any type of technique to "ground" myself. I walked around, looking at birds flying around in the trees and just generally relaxing.
Eventually I found this odd depression in the ground, it looked like a small crater or something. It was the perfect shape for me to lay on my back in, so I did.

For about a minute I lay there on my back with my eyes closed, just taking in the birdsong and gentle swishing of the trees; enjoying the cool wind as it blew over my face.

Eventually though my bladder started to hurt, and I decided it would probably be best to wake myself up. :P

_________________

Another example is from about a week ago. I had decided to test the limits of this technique.

I jumped through a mirror and found myself inside of a corner store. There was a riot outside.


For about ten minutes I unleashed hell upon hundreds of random DCs. Throwing fireballs, using superhuman strength, and many other "superpowers".
Again, I did not even once have to "stabilize" or "ground" my lucidity, and the dream was just as vivid as real life.

____

So yes, I have used this method of thought several times to induce some of the most incredible lucid dreams I've ever had.
Like I said in the topic post though, I've yet to visit Tolkien's universe yet... I've only tested out the basics.

Everything that I've done and experienced with it so far says that all that I talked about is easily possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BillyBob

So yes, I have used this method of thought several times to induce some of the most incredible lucid dreams I've ever had.
Like I said in the topic post though, I've yet to visit Tolkien's universe yet... I've only tested out the basics.

Everything that I've done and experienced with it so far says that all that I talked about is easily possible.

---

Well, in that case, thank you for posting this. You have reinvigorated my hope in the types of dreams that I, too, set out to dream. I was beginning to wonder if it would ever be possible to have dreams like the ones you describe--since all of my LDs and most of what other people describe are always some weird, effervescent, and chaotic world.

I will definitely try to put this into practice, if I can get another LD already!

-Lux

PS: Let us all know when you get to Middle-earth.

i love your posts billybob, they are just the things i need to read when i wake up for a WILD

I want to be a traveler too. Just walk among hundreds of people and think “I am the only one here who actually exists” its an amazing thought provoking experience. I want to see the Wonders of the ancient and modern world and walk along a beach where the ocean is perfectly clear, at the same time knowing that I have created this beautiful world myself.......its mine, and no one else will see it exactly the same way

this is definitely thought-provoking stuff, Billy-Bob. I really wonder about the limitations though. I mean, could I LD in a universe where I have no body? A different set of senses? All depends on imagination I suppose.

I mean we tend to limit dreams by schemata as simple as "I'm human," "I can see," "I'm horny," "I'm straight," "pain hurts," etc... But I mean, you could have a ld where you're walking around in complete physical and mental ecstacy. You could dream about heaven or nirvana! Or hell and enjoy it. You could be a serial killer and rapist and derive unsermoutnable pleasure from it. I can almost imagine feeling that.
What if you meditated in a lucid dream? Would the relazation carry over into real life?
And what if a new joy of killing and raping and torturing carried over?

It's all totally fucking mind-blowing.

how are you sure that you are in the universe? Mentel blocks are harder to get past then that. Let me explain.

As a lucid dreamer i have grown up in the lucid universe. Things are supposed to be a certain way in a lucid dream. A simple portal cant escape you from the lucid dream universe. I have grown up thinking that some things dont always work in a lucid dream. for example last night i had a WILD (it was great by the way) i could walk through walls, fly, and even summon someone (though the person that summoned me scared me half to death lol) the only thing i couldnt do was make a simple fireball. I tried and tried and tried and tried, but i eventually gave up. what if you simply cannot create the portal?
the biggest thing i can think can happen is if its just a fake part of the lucid dream universe. The fact is, we are still lucid dreaming. It will be really hard to get over that fact. It will take a lot of convincing of the mind to get through a real portal.
There must be a way to break the placebo though. One way to beat a placebo it to use a stronger one. perhaps an object? like a universe stone. Something that allows the universe laws to change and a portal opened maybe.

im just rambleing i guess. Somehow i just think its a bit harder to get out of a lucid dream universe if you are lucid dreaming.

From personnel experience, I'd say that universes CAN converge and that they aren't as solid as you seem to make them. Of course, I'd also like to mention that I always have the "anything goes" schemata whether I'm full lucid or semi (if you believe they exist, lets stay off that issue so not to fill this thread =P).

But yeah, if you become lucid and grant a DC the ability to fly, aren't you breaking the universe's laws? I'd say the universes barriers can be broken down by force and your personnel adoption of other schemata. For example, I could start in a real life dream, borrow from my Neverland schemata and pull some fairy dust out of my pocket, sprinkle some on DCs and watch them fly.

I'll agree however that universes do not self destruct. No, frodo will never pull a gun on you. If he did happen to pull out a gun, he'd most likely tell you he found some weird object lying in the mud outside. No rambo machine gunning for Frodo. You however, could easily pull a gun on Frodo. You have the ability to pull from outside the universe. Being totally oblivious to anything outside the current universe would pretty much be only aligned with non-lucidity, would it not? In a lucid you can see the encapsulation of your universe.

I love dreams that last life times! :D ..and the like!

Great exploration of our mind! ;)

I agree with most you are saying. But you seem to narrow it down too much.
"This is the ONLY way this and that can be done!" Kind of style..

Like people saying this is the best food I ever have eaten! ..about every new food they eat... With just one word, it could be true, not just partly true. "This is ONE of the best.." Etcetera.. :)

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These things aren't laws of the dreamstate. They are laws that we as a community have created for "Universe Lucid Dream".

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Well put! :)

Meme's are some interesting stuff! ;)

"Bound to be free, and free to be bound!"

:D


BTW: "The multiverse of universes!"

I understand what you mean, your expectations control dreams outcome and I learned to get over it, now when I fuck a DC, I have a 50/50 chance of busting a nut in real life so when I wake up I got clammy jammys, when before it was nearly impossible, all I do is tell me self it feels good Im gonna bust and I dont think oh my god it feels good Im going to wake up.<<<bad example by the way but it happens...........................sometimes your lucid and you think this is a dream it's harder to run and then you run slow, but if you just think Im running like im on a rollercoaster you will run fast, or the background will move quickly, see your not really running in dreams and you never actually move in dreams it's just what you see changes so much that it looks like real life as thats the only way your subconsious views the world. the background is just going faster. along with scenes changing !!

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Laws of universes do not change. Unless you go through a portal to a new universe, the laws will remain intact forever; no matter what.

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though you can create universes that include a rule on rule-changing.
not necessarily on purpose.
writers do it lots of times while writing, for example.

Doh :shock:.

This is a form of dream control guys. Its a way of working with the basic functions of the dreamstate that will enable you to visit a seemingly self-sustaining alternate reality that contains its own sets of rules/laws.

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There must be a way to break the placebo though. One way to beat a placebo it to use a stronger one. perhaps an object? like a universe stone. Something that allows the universe laws to change and a portal opened maybe.

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I was hoping I wouldn't have to go this deep (as it could be taken the wrong way); jumping through a portal is the "dreamstone" you speak of.

Your not actually ripping open a portal to another reality (a reality that is separate from you), your moving yourself into a new location where a certain ruleset is in effect.


All this whole "moving into other universes" is, is you using the very basics of dream control (ie. your expectations are laws) to create a seemingly self sustaining universe.
This universe stays constant only because you expect it to stay constant.

______________

This whole idea of moving into different universes is merely a way of controlling your dreams on the grandest scale imaginable.

Instead of making an elf appear outside of your door, you make it so that a land of elf men and women exist.
Instead of teleporting to a room in Harry Potter's house, your creating the entire universe of Harry Potter (using JK Rowling's books as your guides in that creation).


Think of it this way.

Normally when you lucid dream your in "sandbox" mode. You control everything imaginable, and your God.
Sandbox mode is great for awhile, but eventually your going to get bored. Your going to want to enjoy content that you can't just think up on your own.

Thats where this method of control comes in. Instead of being god, you consentually give up your powers.
Its like a video game -- you could always just cheat in video games (use dream control), but you don't. You don't cheat because rules are what make things interesting.


When you lucid dream and enter another universe, your exiting sandbox mode and entering into an actual full fledged video game.
Yes, your sandbox powers still totally exist, but you make a conscious decision not to use them.

The "video game" you enter is a world that someone else has created already.
The "laws" of this universe are the laws that the writer/moviemaker/gamecreator/you has set for the world that he/she/you created.

You become a traveler, and temporarily stop using your powers.

___________

Again, the separate universes are merely sets of rules that the creator of said universe has put in place. When you enter a portal to any given universe, what your actually doing is consciously accepting that the given ruleset will be the only rule/laws that can effect you when in said universe.


This allows for many things that have only been touched on so far:

• DVrs creating universes for others to explore
• Visiting ancient cultures and actually experiencing them in a very real way
• Playing out full movies
• Having ongoing stories in your LDs -- your halfway through a movie and your REM period ends; two days later you re-enter that same scenario and finish up
• The ability for writers to jump through a portal to a "random" world. The next day they would just have to document what happened - the subconscious would do all the work. (ongoing LD stories would help here)
• etc etc

Endless possibilities.

___________________________

Remember though, for any of this to work you have to realize that all the "laws" about lucid dreaming you've heard are wrong.

The only laws are the ones that you truly believe are laws, which is why this technique works at all.

Very nice explanation bobby.

I've always did my best to xplain to people that their "Trouble with Flying" is because they expect to fail and that all depends on these expectations. The only way to fly like superman, or "Fall" out of one Reality, Travel to the spiritworld at light speed and reappear on any spot you like in the infinite Dreamverse, or do anything you want is to do it fearless without hasitation and with full conviction of being able to just do it.

Often they didn't get by what I meant by "full conviction" andn the amount of power I convinced them they had via their expectations.

it's like cracking eggs, all you need is confidence.

Great thread!

Motion to move into Tutorials?

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Motion to move into Tutorials?

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i say we need to actually use it first. I havent heard of anyone actually use this besides billybob. If anyone has used this, please report back.

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Originally Posted by BillyBob

I didn't work my ass off to get lucid dreams just so I could have "half" experiences. I want the real deal; I want to be able to visit the land of Mordor and actually feel the need to hide from the giant all seeing eye.
I don't want to be god... I want to be a traveler. I want to be just another person in a sea of people, to be able to immerse myself in a culture that never truly existed.

I want what I worked so dammed hard for.

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You are just like me.....
Thanks for this great tutorial, I agree with you in every thing you said.

This inspired me to try to break all those stupid "laws", thanks =) , i mean, really the thought of breaking all my limitations in lds is beautyful and encouraging.

GREAT read! Thanks so much!

Thanks for all the comments guys/gals.

________________________

I expected this tutorial would get lots of criticism/doubt. I would be very angry with you guys if it didn't (don't believe everything you hear :))
This took me about three years to fully comprehend, so I can't really expect anyone to see the hugeness of it all at first glance.

This method of controlling dreams is the last thing that I'll ever need to understand about lucid dreams. Other than further explaining this method/modding it, I'll never write another dream control tutorial.
This fully explains everything: The madness of Lds, the reason they end so quickly, the reason people can't read, the reason LDrs can't have sex... Everything.


Luckily for all of you, this discovery came about slowly.
As I took baby steps forwards in its direction, I cataloged my understanding of it all through tutorials and posts here on the site.
Hopefully by leading you through my path of understanding, I can help you to comprehend and believe the validity of this method of dream control:

___________________________

The Journey Begins:

As I told you in the tutorial, the first thing I wanted to do when I learned about lucid dreams was take part in intricate "solid" worlds.

Unfortunately, I soon learned (from DV) that this just wasn't possible.
My first lucid dream was the most important. I had only read briefly about lucid dreaming when I had it.
Heres an excerpt from what I wrote down that night:

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...I tried to walk around her to see her face but she kept turning in circles. It was like she was just a 2d picture on a sheet of cardboard. I had to hold my nose and breathe through it like five times because the dream kept fading out.

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Since when does holding your nose and breathing lengthen and steady a dream?
That was the question I asked three months later when I had been in many more lucids. I came to a terrible conclusion: There is no concrete method of stabilizing dreams. To me, that had to mean that dreams are as flowing as ones imagination, rules change on the fly.

_______

For the next few months I WILDed nightly. Every time I would successfully enter a dream it would break down on me.
No stabilization technique worked. I rubbed my hands together, shouted, licked walls, focused on objects... Nothing helped at all.

I was dumbfounded, this didn't make any sense. There had to be something wrong with my brain. I quit having anything to do with LDs for about a year, maybe the problem would resolve itself.

The symptoms of this odd phenomena were:

• Couldn't stay in a lucid dream for longer than a few seconds
• All dreams loss their reality -- they became nothing more than imaginary images. I had no body in them.
• Absolutely no problem with actually WILDing into the dream. Only the dream itself.

Though I had read LaBerge's theory on how normal dreams were formed (schemata), and found it perfectly sound in my mind (my dreamjournal entries always backed it up), I never once thought about the same laws effecting lucid dreams.
Lucid dreams were "magical" after all, and they used a whole different part of your brain.

In the next year I wrote this tutorial, which would prove to be the biggest eye opener of all for me:

<<Dream Control: the complete tutorial>>




In that tutorial I carefully looked at all my previous lucid dream experiences and logically tried to deduce what that one driving force was. Luckily, I had had about 400-500 by that time (though most were fairly short). So I had a huge amount of dream-time experience to work with.

The result of writing that tutorial was that my understanding of the dreamstate opened up a hundred-fold.
It wasn't about fighting the dream for power. It was about tricking myself into believing that some scenario was in effect that made something happen.

It was about using my expectations to allow the dream to manipulate itself.

________________

As usual the vast implications of this eluded my mind for a long, long, time. I read a post by a guy named Arby here on the forums that helped to open my mind up a bit. In his post he talked about how he just walked through the dreamscapes and used no dream control. The way I read it, he treated his dreams like they were a form of true reality, and thus thats what they became.

I must admit that that realization I made two years ago had never left me up to this point. Though I had improved a lot over the two years, I still struggled occasionally with dream realism and stabilization. Stabilizing techniques would work only rarely, and I spent most of my lucid time focusing on my intent to stay in the dream.
It was madenning.


My whole reason for beginning to lucid dream had never been fulfilled. At the rate I was going it never would be.

_____________________

I'm not sure how it happened, I think it had a lot to do with dream yoga. I was walking into my room when I did a reality check and thought: "why do dreams that are as real as life suddenly change into cesspools when we do reality checks?"

I began to think deeply about reality as a whole, and then remembered schemata.
It all clicked.


That night I had a DILD and found myself standing by my car. "No rush" I thought to myself. I didn't do any stabilization techniques or use dream control, I just lucidly took part in the dream that I had found myself in. "this dream was here before I became lucid" I told myself, "It wasn't unstable or 'crazy' then. It has its own special laws already put in place."
This worked out better than I could have imagined.

This tutorial was then written after several more tests of this method of dream control.

______________

Hopefully reading that has given you a deeper understanding of why this method works. To use it, total belief is required.
I've been conditioned over the past years to be able to do this. I sincerely hope that you all can just learn from my mistakes :(

I can't impress upon you enough how insanely massive the implications of this technique are.

• No more fighting the dreamstate
• No more having to stabilize every lucid dream repeatedly
• No more worrying
• No more rules

Its super-massive in its scope. I finally figured out a way to make anything possible for myself.
All of the tutorials I've ever written have led to this. :embarrassed:

________

I think that the fight is half the fun for most Ldrs. I think they would rather feel like they're conquering their subconscious than to work with it.
At least, thats how i used to feel :(

hot diggity-dam that some truth right there!

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Originally Posted by god incarnate

hot diggity-dam that some truth right there!

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Well thats how it went down. :P


I almost didn't post this tutorial at all because I knew people would just see it as an "interesting concept" and whatnot.
Those two posts were my last ditch effort to show you all how incredible and groundbreaking this truly is. This should be "the" form of dream control.

Since I started using this all the problems I just talked about went away. They haven't come back, my lucid dreams are exactly what I always hoped they would be :)

I think one can certainly achieve such an attitude, but for many however developing a new attitude is a very very difficult thing.

I'm sure you would be pleased to hear that I tried this last night, and it worked brilliantly - practically epic length, perfect stability, perfect dream control:boogie: (considering this is about my 5th LD ever:shock: this is saying something). Plus I worked out a nice way of opening portals into other worlds - just find a wall somewhere, put a crack in it and pull it open, "knowing" the hole is actually a hole in the universe - which also worked well for me.
Unfortunately my recall sucks so I only remember half the dream.

Everyone - try this, then we'll know if this was a fluke. If not, then :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown: BillyBob. :)

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Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

I'm sure you would be pleased to hear that I tried this last night, and it worked brilliantly - practically epic length, perfect stability, perfect dream control:boogie: (considering this is about my 5th LD ever:shock: this is saying something). Plus I worked out a nice way of opening portals into other worlds - just find a wall somewhere, put a crack in it and pull it open, "knowing" the hole is actually a hole in the universe - which also worked well for me.
Unfortunately my recall sucks so I only remember half the dream.

Everyone - try this, then we'll know if this was a fluke. If not, then :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown: BillyBob. :)

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:D
Finally someone tested it out for themselves. Hopefully others will follow.


Your actually the second other than me to try this, and the other guy had very similar results:

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Originally Posted by Funnel

Yes! I had a 5 minute LD last night! There were two things I did differently.

1) Instead of waking up after 4 hours of sleep, I woke up after 8 hours. I know 8 hours isnt recomended for a WBTB, but hey, it worked.

2) I did not focus on my hands, scream "clarity now", or anything that would better ground me in my dream. I just proceeded with attempting my LD task which was a reanactment of 300 which didn't work out too well. I made the Persians appear before I made a weopon for myself! Took me a while until I realized I could shoot fire balls.

I think once I stop fighting against my reality and just work with it, the dream will stabalize and clarify itself. I'm not sure if this was the advice you were giving Billybob, but my interpretation of your advice worked, so thanks!

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Thats from this topic.

Up to this dream he had been having only very short lucids. So it was a massive improvement.
This improvement came through reading only the very basics of the tutorial this topic contains. He didn't even fully understand what I was saying and yet he saw a drastic improvement :P

__________________

So I doubt it was a fluke :)

Test this out for yourselves everyone.

:D

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The dream didn't end! I made it through sex without the dream ending. I just kind of knew in the back of my mind that the dream wouldn't end and it didn't!.[I think I read something about that in BillyBob's The Infinite Universes tutorial.]So I was like well damn that was great! :lol: Then I look down and see a book and start to read it to see if there's anything crazy or interesting that's in it.

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(Link)

Thats three people other than myself that have disregarded the "laws" of their lucid dreams and had mind blowing experiences.

Post in here if you use this. I would really like to know how well it worked for you/any comments you have. :)

:D I was just about to post that and thank you! ^

Thanks! :D It was a great first lucid and I'm definitely glad I read this!

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Originally Posted by Stephent91

:D I was just about to post that

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Oops, sorry about that :embarrassed:

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Thanks! :D It was a great first lucid and I'm definitely glad I read this!

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No, thank you :P
Your experience has solidified my belief that anyone can use the technique in this topic (I was worried that tons of experience in the dreamworld could be necessary).

Thanks a lot for giving it a chance :)

I just posted some stuff in my thread in the experiences forum. But I can't remember it all, so I'll just have to say go there to read it haha. :D

Don't be sorry though, it made me happy to see it! :D

billy boob, billy boob
now my brain is just applying your multiverse rules to normal dreams, turning most of them into some pale imitation of low level lucids
makes harder to have decent LDs, but mostly because to my lazy sleeping self they look less attractive compared to all those fun adventure ones

dunno if i am glad or pissed off :P

deadly buzz, i accidentally did this in one of my early lucids, before i knew it was a thing.

i just ended up getting lucid in a corridor, where in every room there was a different place, with a different set of rules/laws.

it was all based on the look of the door, but i didnt do it conciously, it just happened.
i remember the last door was really old, and wooden, so i figured it must be from some kind of ship. sure enough when i opened it it was a pirates ship, but i ended up falling overboard, and waking up.

great tutorial, im gonna start trying this more.

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Originally Posted by freefire

i say we need to actually use it first. I havent heard of anyone actually use this besides billybob. If anyone has used this, please report back.

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I had a few lucid dreams before reading this, and they weren't very good. I didn't have as much control as I would have liked, because I expected that I would wake up if I didn't spin around in circles.

After reading this I have had 2 or 3 lucid dreams. I have not had any need to stabilize myself, and I was able to fly and fly through glass without thinking about it.

I was only unable to do it when I thought, "Maybe I'm not dreaming...What then..."

This seems to have been sort of lost in the flow of things, but I thought I'd breathe some new life into it, because as far as "dream control" goes, this is it.

I understood the concept when you first posted about it Billy Bob, but it was your second and third post that really got me thinking. I have had some truly vivid lucid dreams that rival real life, and sometimes feel like they're even clearer. And then a few nights later I'd have a lucid that was complete murk and ended because I was fighting with it.

I think the best way I can put this for people who still don't understand how to go about achieving this mindset is to think of it like this:

When you become lucid, you're already dreaming. In a normal, non-lucid dream, never do you worry about it ending because it's a dream! It will continue until your REM stops and you wake up. Nothing has changed when you become lucid other than your state of awareness. This means that, until your REM ends, you are guaranteed to be in the dream, so enjoy!

You have to think of it as it's own seperate entity, much like Billy Bob was saying about schemata and 'universes'. Dreams are dreams, and they go on until your body says enough and moves on to a different part of your sleep cycle, or wakes up naturally. The only way you're going to end them prematurely is if you try and fight them when you're lucid. Going into a panic, trying ridiculous techniques to increase clarity or worrying about staying in the dream is exactly what ends your dreams or brings about that lack of clarity. If you relax and realize that becoming lucid was the hardest part, it's all gravy. The rest of the dream is yours and you can do whatever you want.

Billy Bob already explained about universes and schemata, so if there's something you want to do like fly and you're currently using your real life schema then you simply need to alter it. There is no how. Just do it.

Finally, I want to say thanks to you Billy Bob, because this post has been enlightening. It's refreshing to see this type of tip, and especially one so useful. I think for a lot of people, as it has been for me, that simply reading this will change everything.

The hardest part, for me at least, is creating a portal in Real Life Universe (if this dream mimics real life, I cannot create a portal). Instead, I must convince myself that I wasn't in Real Life Universe from the beginning! That most always works.

Even in my favorite lucids, the schemata remains. This is most prevalent in the modern junk that keeps popping up whenever I try and go somewhere fantasy.

Woah. I really like derb's corridor idea! It's awetastic!

Are you saying that I could say "FUCK IT! FUCK THEM! FUCK RESEARCH! FUCK UNDERSTANDING OF THE HUMAN BRAIN! AND FUCK ANYTHING ELSE OF THAT PARTICULAR NATURE!!!" and simply build my own universe in my dreams in which the most insane unimaginable and unthinkable things happen regularly and things most people think can never EVER happen even in a dream, can happen?

Wow. I actually tried this out today and the results were astounding.

In my dream, I was running across a field for some reason or another, and it occured to me during the dream that I was lucid. Immediately after this happened, I remembered this post and to relax and all that jazz and this is what happened:

The dream had been a little fuzzy and the colours were fairly muted right before I had gotten lucid. The instant I realized I was lucid, relaxed and realized that I was locked in for some fun for bit it was as if I had taken a filter off a camera. The colours changed first, becoming vibrant and full, and then a second later everything seemingly came into focus. I could've been standing in the actual field in real life and not been able to tell the difference.

The dream continued on and I figured that I would test out my new found confidence by taking a little test flight. The thing is that I usually have difficulty achieving any sustained flight. Either I'll only be able to jump really high, or not achieve proper height, or only be able to fly for a few moments before slowly descending back to the ground. However, this time I simply rocketed into the sky. It was effortless. I actually made it from this barren field to a gigantic city that I could see from the sky. There were no issues with altitude loss or struggle with control.

I don't really know what else to say. In one dream, this 'technique', if you can even call it that, has paid off for me in spades. IMO this should be required reading for everyone on this forum. I mean what's the point in having lucid dreams if you can't do anything in them, right?

so billybob you are saying all we have to do is believe that when we jump through it will take us ANYWHERE we want and it will happen?

Great thread, and great concept. No new techniques or everything, but a whole different way to think about LDs... if I start to get lucid again (had a looooong break) I will certainly follow these advises. Thanks.

I'll try this out, but tbh, this seems pretty obvious to me this is going to work. Even in real life, you get what you expect to get, so it's sure to work in dreams. Thanks alot for the info BillyBob ^^

:bowdown: amazing
as always

Just reading this has changed my way of thinking even more! I already thought some of it, such as that I wouldn't let things such as some people not able to fly/having trouble flying get in my way in my own dreams. I decided to have as much confidence as possible and believe I could do anything.

Luckily, in this case, I read this post before I had more LDs and started worrying too much about stabilizing my dream and stuff. I didn't bother doing that in my last LD and it was just fine (although I couldn't summon the pumpkin or walk through the wall like I was trying to do; I did manage to fly).

So yeah, reading this has only cemented my confidence, so thank you. Definitely coming back and rereading this when I have a few more LDs. :boogie:

BillyBob, you've really changed my way of thinking of LD's! I had my first one last night, and guess what the first thing I did was? I did some stabilization techniques! I started spinning around and rubbing my hands, just because I've read about so many people waking up right after they get lucid. Sure it "worked", but the LD only lasted for like 1-2 minutes before I woke up. In the next LD I get, I'll totally try this out, I just know it will work!


I'll let you know when I've tried it!

Hi Billybob, thanks for all the knowledge sharing :)

Im pretty new to LD'ing and I am glad I stumpled across this thread, THIS SHOULD BE A STICKY!!!

I have read a lot on this forum, it's all very interesting, but when I look back on all these "laws" you mention, they are pretty silly. Like "Closing your eyes will make you wake up" "spinning will wake you up" etc..

3 days ago I had a short LD, I looked at my hand because I remember discussions on the DV forum, well I had 3 and a half finger on my hands. Was it because I thought it was a "law" and thus my expectations created the hand with the missing fingers?

Do you Billy see your hand as normal or do you miss fingers, if you do miss fingers, what is the reason?

Next time I will see my hand as normal.

Think of how many people that are new to Lucid Dreaming (like me) that come here and read about what will make you fail, thousands must have slipped out of dreams because of that.

Specialis Sapientia,
I've been thinking about that too.
Are you able to breathe even though you pinch your nose because it's like that in the dream world or because that's what you've come to expect after learning it here on the forum? Would you have false awakenings if you hadn't read about them here?

This should really be the FIRST thread you read when you come to this forum.

You're a pure genius, this is starting to run my head in loops. We are creating boundaries and laws within our dreams without even meaning to do so. We're leashing ourselves because we believe that something will happen if we don't. But think about it. If someone has a lucid dream and has never heard of "grounding" then their dream is never going to break down. Because its just illogical. But if something has told us if we don't ground ourselves our dream will suddenly break down that then suddenly becomes logical and will most likely happen...

Our mind is a giant sponge soaking in information, then, setting those barriers in our mind. If we believe that there are no boundaries...

Thanks for reviving one of the greatest topics ever in DV history, but if it died once it will again... I just wish people could could understand this and stop spamming the forms with problems w/ Dream control and hence creating the same problem for future LDers

Just wondering BillyBob if you have been to Middle-earth yet. Or, in more general terms how this tech has been working out for you of late. Has it really opened up infinite Lucid universes?

Belief has no part in dream control. Beliefs are just archetypical structures like any other which can be used in dreams with random consequences.

In a recent lucid I tried to telekineticaly bend some trees with my hands, like parting tall grass. I believed I could do it, otherwise I wouldn't have fucking tried it! But it didn't work.

Instead what happened was that my trying to use my hands for telekenesis activated the archetype of "Magic hand powers", which randomized with every single instance of hand powers I know. I had recently watched and animated Iron Man movie, so that was fresh in my mind, and that's what the archetype randomly landed on. I ended up with an Iron Man perversion where I was shooting spotlights out of my hands.

Another example of why belief fails is when it is used in conjunction with the word "NOT". You walk around in a dream saying "There are NOT going to be zombies, there are NOT going to be zombies..." over and over, and it's just a matter of time until zombies show up.

Don't beleive in beleiving!

First, BillyBob hasn't posted in years...

Secondly, the reason believing doesn't work for so many people on these forums is that through constant reading of threads users Schemata are being programmed to always have a doubt that something will work. Heck I don't go around in dreams saying "There will be no zombies" Instead if I'm lucid I'd you my dream control to make the most elaborate scene of a summoning ever. And then I use matrix powers to obliterate the zombie back to where it game.

You could TRY this buy it wouldn't work because you've read and now BELIEVE that you will wake up when not using passive control. Your schemata is now programmed to fail when you try something like this.

(I know I'm not making much sense. This is just my angry ranting on how much this forum is actually HURTING dream control)

How was the LOTR universe? was it hard to hide from the all seeing eye? did you team up with the elfs in the very beggining againts mordor?

BillyBob hasn't posted since like 2007/2008... He won't be able to answer that

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Originally Posted by Huntman800

(I know I'm not making much sense. This is just my angry ranting on how much this forum is actually HURTING dream control)

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You make perfect sense. In fact I'm thrilled you actually know what you're talking about, because it shows people are actually starting to understand how dreams work. I've noticed a major shift on DV of people who suddenly get it, and the accepted views on how dreams work around here is starting to reflect that. Don't be shy with your posts, we're reaching critical mass to understand how dreams work and how control really works.

In defense of billybob, attention of belief would make it work. That and I has had things be without the need of my attention, or at least concious one which is the attention I think you always refer to (The Cusp). If not, my bad <.<
But yes, it isn't hurting dream control, it is just not up to date...

You have no idea how awesome this is for me.

For two whole weeks before I knew what LDs were, I had them close to every night. But it was when I tried to find answers about it and started doing RCs and trying to remember what I'm supposed to do in the dreams that everything started being...blah. I was really starting to get discouraged. I actually did wonder if I should just stop all the "methods" all together. This makes so much sense! I'm really excited now!

I'm definitely gonna do this tonight. Thanks BillyBob! I'll be sure to post if it works!

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Originally Posted by Huntman800

Thanks for reviving one of the greatest topics ever in DV history, but if it died once it will again... I just wish people could could understand this and stop spamming the forms with problems w/ Dream control and hence creating the same problem for future LDers

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Good point. I've often thought that reading about the problems others have would only serve to limit the possibilities of my own dreams.

Talking about fantasy worlds from popular fiction also seem to me to be limiting in a sense. The power of imagination and the power of our minds is infinite. If our lucid dreams resemble our waking reality in any way then we are still amateurs (I say this not even being more than a novice yet let alone an amatuer)

When I first read 'The Lucid Dreamer' by Malcolm Godwin what intrigued me most was his contention that at first new lucid dreamers will see things that closely resemble their waking life but as they progress they realize that their lucid worlds are bound by absolutely nothing.

Running through a paper door, stepping through a mirror with no expectations at all is what I hope to do someday. What is on the other side? A world that is indescribable in any human language perhaps. To expect anything at all is anathema.

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Originally Posted by RightWhereItBelongs

Talking about fantasy worlds from popular fiction also seem to me to be limiting in a sense.

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I don't think of those as limiting, I think of them as expansive. It's just another unique Lego piece you have available to build with. Only instead of Lego, it's an archetype.

Each piece has it's limitations, but you're not limited in the selection of archetypes you can use, you are only limited by the Lego pieces you possess.

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Originally Posted by RightWhereItBelongs

I've often thought that reading about the problems others have would only serve to limit the possibilities of my own dreams.

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That's a very real possibility, but you're not really limiting yourself, only changing the shape of one particular Lego piece, or rearranging the connections of a particular archetype.

Reliable dream control requires using stable archetypes, ones that don't change or have a lot of variations. When you read all kinds of different outcomes associated with certain techniques. you are reshaping the possible outcomes that technique can provide you.

But reading on stuff online doesn't have as much of an influence as actually doing things in dreams, so I really wouldn't worry about it too much. Especially since the control archetypes of most lucid dreamers are already tragically flawed to begin with.

When a first time LDer decides to shout "More light!!!" for the first time and it doesn't work, that creates a fundamental link to failure with that technique. And as long as that dreamer uses that technique, he will always encounter random failures as a result. You can alter the odds of success by having more attempts where it works, but there will always be that possibility where it doesn't.

well these laws that you came up with are true for beginners like myself. Once a person gets good enough they no longer apply and they truly can do whatever they possibly want. Lucid dreaming is hard to understand even for people who know how to do it, yet alone people who have never had one.

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Originally Posted by RightWhereItBelongs

Good point. I've often thought that reading about the problems others have would only serve to limit the possibilities of my own dreams.

Talking about fantasy worlds from popular fiction also seem to me to be limiting in a sense. The power of imagination and the power of our minds is infinite. If our lucid dreams resemble our waking reality in any way then we are still amateurs (I say this not even being more than a novice yet let alone an amatuer)

When I first read 'The Lucid Dreamer' by Malcolm Godwin what intrigued me most was his contention that at first new lucid dreamers will see things that closely resemble their waking life but as they progress they realize that their lucid worlds are bound by absolutely nothing.

Running through a paper door, stepping through a mirror with no expectations at all is what I hope to do someday. What is on the other side? A world that is indescribable in any human language perhaps. To expect anything at all is anathema.

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Name and avatar combined discourages anyone from taking this seriously.

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Originally Posted by Bizarre Jester

well these laws that you came up with are true for beginners like myself. Once a person gets good enough they no longer apply and they truly can do whatever they possibly want. Lucid dreaming is hard to understand even for people who know how to do it, yet alone people who have never had one.

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No! This is not true whatsoever, your limiting yourself! I'm in a dry spell right now (which is why I haven't bothered posting in forever...) But once you can have a lucid dream it's up to YOU to have extremely mastered dream control or none at all.

It seems pretty obvious that a child would find this easier as little to no parts of their mind are bound by reality. But that doesn't matter. It's all science, you think something impossible in a world created by what your thinking, how could it happen?

(Hoping someone who really understands this helps me here)

If there are but this specific Schematas what about when there is no apparent Schemata and it is complete randomness?

I had a dream that perfectly makes my point here, I've had a lot of no Schemata dreams but this really shows my point:

I was being chased by a lot of T-rex'es through an old western town in a 70's style car holding the dinosaur back with some sort of futuristic cannon and using "The Force" from star wars while being backed by some people from Bleach and Dragonball Z, WHERE IS THE SCHEMATA IN THAT?!?! (or is there a complete jumbled up schemata of randomness?)

I Actually am creating a universe right now. It will be my universe. It will be real in my mind and my mods for video games. I actually had this Idea after a dream (non-lucid) That took place on an island.

I don't think you understand the whole theory (if it can be called that) of schemata... It's what you believe is possible, if your convinced you can do something and you can do it, thats your schemata. Your lucky that you don't seem to be influenced by other posters here in that your hardly bound by anything

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Originally Posted by Huntman800

I don't think you understand the whole theory (if it can be called that) of schemata... It's what you believe is possible, if your convinced you can do something and you can do it, thats your schemata. Your lucky that you don't seem to be influenced by other posters here in that your hardly bound by anything

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Is that an insult or a compliment?

I understand that this a very old thread, but I really don't get it. It seems as if your main point is that dreams Structured on what we believe and know to be true (schematas). It also sounds like the dream world has a general theme such as reality, sci-fi, starwars, ect. That we have preconceived notions for the physics and abilities of these "subworlds" I would call them. Is your main point really that you should just follow the rules of this world because that's what you know to be true?? That's what archetypes are for!

"You can't be in Universe Real Life and suddenly have superpowers. Thats illogical, and would conflict with that universe's laws."

this seems ridiculous to me. How do I Use telekinesis in a WILD that is mimicking reality then?

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I was being chased by a lot of T-rex'es through an old western town in a 70's style car holding the dinosaur back with some sort of futuristic cannon and using "The Force" from star wars while being backed by some people from Bleach and Dragonball Z, WHERE IS THE SCHEMATA IN THAT?!?! (or is there a complete jumbled up schemata of randomness?)

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I am fully aware that this post of over two years old, but because the thread is bumped anyways I'm answering. Isn't it obvious? An old western town, star wars, DBZ... Certainly sounds like classic movie/TV associations. It follows a logical flow of ideas: western town-->movies--->starwars--->entertatinment--->DBZ.

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How do I Use telekinesis in a WILD that is mimicking reality then?

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You don't, instead you escape that "universe" simply by becoming lucid. You tell yourself: "This is a dream, I can do whatever I want". By the very act of thinking and believing that, you are no longer in the "Universe Real Life", or whatever other dream setting you were in previously. You are now in "Universe Dream World" where you can do whatever you want. I could be misunderstanding the OP or your question, but that is what I make of it.

Thanks. Thats what I wanted to hear

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Originally Posted by BillyBob

Much of what I'm about to tell you is conceptual -- a way of viewing lucid dreams.
Take it in any way you please.

_________________

The Stuff of Dreams

Three years ago, I discovered a tool that would prove to be the most powerful I could ever imagine: Lucid Dreaming.

When I first found lucid dreaming, many ideas of what I could do sprang into my mind. I could fight alongside elves for the protection of Middle Earth, I could join Neo as he cleansed The Matrix of its programmed agents, Most of all though -the thing that I really and truly wanted- I could carry on an alternate life within the dreamworld.


Alas! I've yet to complete any of these things.
Though I have talked to an elf, I had to make him appear outside of my front door. Though I have "kind of" been in the Matrix, it wasn't really "the Matrix" at all, just a half-assed consciously created replica.

I didn't work my ass off to get lucid dreams just so I could have "half" experiences. I want the real deal; I want to be able to visit the land of Mordor and actually feel the need to hide from the giant all seeing eye.
I don't want to be god... I want to be a traveler. I want to be just another person in a sea of people, to be able to immerse myself in a culture that never truly existed.

I want what I worked so dammed hard for.


How to Get It:

For three years I've tried to figure out how to achieve this type of realism. Finally, after all this time and all this searching, I've pieced it together.

To understand this fully you must first understand how I believe dreams are created.

I think it was LaBerge that first used "schemata" to explain how dreams are formed (don't quote me on that of course).
(You may want to look over the contents of that link before continuing)

Basically, what happens is that as your lying there sleeping an image will come up in your mind.
Lets say this is an image of a pencil.

Your mind will begin to build a scene around this image of a pencil using your subconscious set of schemata.
Lets say that when you think of a pencil you think that it should be sitting on a desk.
When you think of a desk you think of school.
When you think of school you think of that one hot teacher you used to have.
When you think of that teacher you think of how you used to always worry about getting an erection in her class.

Using these schemata, your mind has built a nightmare wherein your standing in that hot teachers classroom with an erection and everyone is laughing at you.


This is how all dreams are born and perpetuated. They use your deepest expectations of what "should be", then build a vivid scene and storyline around it.

________________

Now that you (hopefully) understand how normal dreams are formed, it should be easier for you to understand how lucids work:

Lucid Dreams:

In a lucid dream, the same rules apply. Except now theres a key difference: now your consciously in control of your expectations.


Infinite Universes:

When most DVrs enter a lucid dream the first thing that pops into their heads is something along the lines of:
"omfg ! omfg! I'm in a lucid dream and I need to try and stabilize it before it breaks down on me and then I'll be awake and my lucid dream will have been lost oh no! oh no!"

I ask you, why would your dream suddenly "break down" just because you became lucid? That doesn't make any sense at all. I mean, we dream many times every night of the week.
Those dreams don't just randomly break down.


The reason our lucid dreams are breaking down like that is because we're making them break down.
Your dreams run on your expectations. When you expect that the dream could break down at any given moment, and that in order for it to be vivid you MUST yell out words or something like that, your creating laws within your dream!

Over your time reading about lucid dreaming and experiencing lucidity for yourself, you've built your own little universe thats titled: "Universe Lucid Dream".
Within Universe LD all the things that you "know" about lucid dreaming, have become laws:

• Sex to orgasm "nearly" impossible
• Hard to fly
• Can't turn on light switches
• If you get too excited you'll "overload" your brain and wake up
• etc etc

All these "laws" are in effect in Universe Lucid Dream.

These things aren't laws of the dreamstate. They are laws that we as a community have created for "Universe Lucid Dream".


Again remember. The only reason these things are laws is because deep down, you expect them to be laws. Your putting these restrictions on yourself by only having your LDs in the universe that we as a community of lucid dreamers have created: Universe Lucid Dream.

______

Do not fret. Now that you know what your doing, there's an easy way to get out of universe LD.


Realize that all the rules you've ever learned about lucid dreaming (can't have sex too long, they don't last long at all, etc), only apply to universe LD.

Now realize that there are an infinite number of other universes in your mind. Here's some examples:

• The Matrix Universe
• LOTR Universe
• Harry Potter Universe
• "Real Life" Universe
• Anime Universe
• etc

Each of these Universes already exist. All you have to do is find a way to enter them (a portal).
"Portals" can be anything. You could jump through a mirror, or tear open a rift in time and space, perhaps you could just kill yourself and resurrect in whatever universe you please.


How To View These Universes:

Don't see them as extensions of your lucid dreams.
They are full fledged universes all on there own. Just like every normal dream you have is a full fledged universe of its own.

They have their own laws, their own geography, their own everything. Your not creating anything.
You don't even have to worry about them ending because of something you did. Universes don't just end, thats illogical.

Of course, REM limits the amount of time you can stay in a universe. Just as the need to sleep limits the amount of time you can stay in real life.
Don't worry about how long your REM period is going to last (how long you have until you have to go to sleep), just dwell in the moment and calmly do whatever you want.


Think of the reality your in right now.
Real life is solid; its fundamental laws don't just change.

Lets say I'm walking down a hallway in real life and I see a "hump" on my couch as I walk past the doorway. Do I suddenly run in terror thinking that that hump is a massive spider thats about to attack and slay me?
Fuck no.

I would try to reason away the hump:

1. My doors are locked so it can't be a robber
2. This is real life so its nothing supernatural
3. I'm the only person in the house
4. I have no animals
5. It has to be a wad of clothes that someone threw on the couch without folding

You see, I did a check with the rules that were established in my current reality to logically see what the "thing" was.


You do the same thing in the universes that you visit in your lucid dreams.
In "lucid dream universe", that hump could literally have been anything. The rules said there were no rules.

If I had been having a normal dream about how all the women in the world wanted to sex me up, that hump would have been a sexy woman.

If I was in a lucid dream and in "real life universe", that hump was just a wad of clothes.


Take the facts of the universes you enter: the laws, and build your expectations around that.

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I agree with a lot of what you have to say except, our dreams do have limits because our brains have limits. These limits are extremely high because of the absolute complexity and advancement of our "super" brain, some limits we may never even reach because of the power our brain truly has.
But again there are limits. You can awaken from to much excitement in my opinion because s you get excited certain parts of your brain react and more and more activity brews until your brain has almost completely turned on, and thus you awaken. But that's just my opinion/observation.

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Originally Posted by Tripoli

I agree with a lot of what you have to say except, our dreams do have limits because our brains have limits. These limits are extremely high because of the absolute complexity and advancement of our "super" brain, some limits we may never even reach because of the power our brain truly has.
But again there are limits. You can awaken from to much excitement in my opinion because s you get excited certain parts of your brain react and more and more activity brews until your brain has almost completely turned on, and thus you awaken. But that's just my opinion/observation.

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I think that the whole point of this thread is the "unlearning" of things. If you can "unlearn" that excitement wakes you up then you're okay. However I have to disagree with the orignal point that all of the "laws" of lucid dreams are made by the community, I'd suggest that we need to overcome our own assumptions more than the societal rules (although these too have their place).

"Remember that you can also create your own universes with their own special laws (A universe where car tires are not susceptible to friction?)"

lol those cars wouldn't go anywhere!