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I am also very happy to have believed, and consequently grown wiser for it.
And it is true, the memories made live on regardless.
The idea of Santa to me still means giving back, showing appreciation to those deserving. Giving them a smile and some holiday cheer, and, let's be honest, who doesn't like a little of that?
I have more philosophical misgivings about some Disney characters than I do about Santa Claus.
I agree with the pro santa group. My whole family is atheist yet we still had santa for the first few years of my life and it was great. In fact until I was like 7 I pretty much lived in a fantasy world, not because I was trying to escape from something but because my parents let me live in a magical world of fairies, dragons, trolls, castles and so much more. I could play with rocks and sticks for days and it was wonderful. My parents let me fantasize, they read me books, and told me about santa. They didn't go out of their way to keep me there, they just encouraged it.
The effect of all that love and fantasy?....Well I was asked to do a summer course for the smartest kids of the country in my capital at the age of 10. The beauty of fantasy for kids, is that it brings out the best in them. Kids will always come to terms with reality eventually, in the mean time why not give them the gift of the most wonderful rich and colorful childhood possible.
No sorry, still not working for me. I don't think you guys quite get it. This isn't like fairies or dragons or other popular fantasy stuff. For over a month of the year santa is shoved in your face and everyone is made to participate in it.
Imagine working in a retail store during the christmas and an employee utters the words 'santa isn't real'. How do you think parents with small children would react? That employee is gonna get schooled, or worse, for saying the truth, because it hurt a child feelings, because their parents lied, because the whole damn nation is obsessed.
You understand what I'm getting at?
Youre trying to pretend this is just fantasy and were being evil anal adults taking away fantasy. What a load of crap (and again I was TEN when I was annoyed as hell with santa). I never believed in santa yet fantasy has been a part of my life - everyday. It's what I do - I draw creatures that don't exist. You actually don't have to lie to kids for them to have fantasy in their life. Ambiguity in fantasy is actually better, it makes kids imagine the possibilities.
And again, its the nationwide obsession that drives me nuts. So you want to lie to your kids about santa. Good for you. Why does everyone else who doesn't give a damn about this bizarre tradition have be a part of it?
What is the point in yelling out that there is not Santa Claus? That's just a rotten thing to do. The fact that it's the truth doesn't make it okay. Somebody might speak the truth when yelling at a large woman, "Hey lady, you are so fat!" It's jerk behavior even if the statement is true.
Santa Claus is no ordinary fantasy. It is a very specific one, and it is one that adds a whole lot to kids' lives, much more than any other. Nothing compares to it. I experienced it, and I know how awesome it is. We should let kids experience it.
A rotten thing to do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
Listen to yourselves. Are you all delusional?
Did starving children cease to exist?
No. You listen. Because it matters. Maybe all you santa lovers were fortunate and never had to worry about poverty. Be ever so grateful. I dont know at what age you became aware of poverty, but I was six. I'm fortunate that I learned about it.
Because other kids didn't 'learn' about poverty, it is their life. And I'm not talking about some far off foreign country, I'm talking about right here. 1 out of 4 children in my city alone don't have enough to eat. The statistics for homeless children is about the same. I don't even understand those numbers. Its HUGE.
These kids are american. So of course they know about santa. How do they feel about it? Maybe this year he'll think I'm a good kid?
And then every holiday season there's a new santa movie, oh santa! Magically delivering all the worlds children joy! And then you santa lovers just eat those movies up despite REALITY. I could just barf.
Still think I'm being a jerk just to be a jerk? I really don't want to be a part of it. Its not even about lying to kids, its about grown adults lying to themselves.
"A real-life Grinch was arrested after he spoiled the holiday cheer at a parade, telling children that Santa isn’t real."
Yeah. What?
You can't have one adult ruining the 'fun'. So the santa-religion has taught the believers to regurgitate all sorts of phrases if someone tries to leave the fold.
"you have no christmas spirit!"
"children need santa to enjoy christmas!!"
"children without santa have less imagination!"
"youre ruining childhood!"
Whatever. Fire and brimstone.
Say fairies aren't real and nobody cares. Say you think its crazy to tell kids about santa and everybody loses their minds!
I didn't say anything about you. You said, "Imagine working in a retail store during the christmas and an employee utters the words 'santa isn't real'. How do you think parents with small children would react?" So I addressed that. It would be a jerk thing to do. I am sorry that you missed out on believing in Santa Claus. I think it is the reason you don't know the significance of the great feeling that comes with it. I don't see the point in denying a kid of it. Missing out on believing in fairies is nowhere near the same level of misfortune.
I do not understand where the urge to tell kids Santa is not real comes from. But otherwise, I want to address something else about that. If someone in a retail store, a mature adult man, tells two small children "Santa doesn't exist!", the parents will not be mad because the man hurt the children, rather, they will be mad, because he just ended the fun family game they were having (Where they needed to hide the presents and eat the cookies without being seen). How are the kids reacting to what the man said:
Kid A: I KNEW IT!! HAHA I KNEW IT! SANTA DOESN'T EXIST!
Kid B: It's not true, he's just joking. Obviously Santa exist because nothing can explain how we got our presents last time!
Kid A: I tell you, daddy and mommy are Santa Claus!
Kid B: Well, next Christmas, we'll have to catch Santa Claus and then I can prove it to you.
Kids aren't hurt. Well, I've never seen that. It's not like anyone cries when told that God doesn't exist. They either connect with the statement or disagree with it.
Also, I did not quite get the part about poverty. As a kid, I knew that my family did not have a lot of money so I would only ask small gifts. But because Santa could give me anything, I would ask him completely impossible things like magic wands and advanced pet robots which he would obviously never give me. I knew money was a limit. Especially the year where I only got a very simple cat puzzle. It was not an exciting gift but I understood. And besides, I always knew the Santa on TV was fictional, a cartoon or an actor! I really hope poor kids don't blame themselves. As long as they don't get coal, they should know it's not because they're bad. If parents don't give presents to their kids, they could easily explain their financial situation and tell them that's why they're not gonna play that game everyone is playing. Instead they could play some other Christmas game of their invention.
I find it hilarious that people knowingly invent some white, bearded man in the sky with the power to reward and punish children then fundamentally believe in a different white, bearded man in the sky with the power to reward and punish adults.
I do agree that the magical feeling is awesome. And I retain it despite all the skepticism that exists today. I still love that brief moment in my research of angels when I can truly call into possibility their existence. It's too bad so many of today's fantasies are dark and twisted, revolving around malevolent reptilians and stuff.
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Original Poster
I remember walking outside and actually spotting UFOs because i believed they where all around us, watching us. Magical.. Awe inspiring feelings. Still need to have a go at vaporizing clouds though, that kind of seemed to work back then as well.
And juroara is living evidence (the only one I know of who didn't do christmas!) that not believing in santa does not correlate to less imaginative powers. To the contrary, Juroara's case might have actually developed more art/imaginative abilities compared to child believers in santa
Just so you know, last year I decided to replace the phrase "I feel like a million bucks" with "I feel like a hobo on christmas."Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
On Christmas Eve and Christmas (and several days building up) we get hand outs from every where. I mean people aren't very original and I got like 16 tooth brushes but I also made 80 bucks in the amount of time it takes to make 10, got two blankets, tons of new clothes, all sorts of food, etcetera etcetera. It was fantastic. People really took care of us hobos, and that's your Santa right there. I'm damned positive that children living in poverty get the same experience, and the same joy. We look out for each other on Christmas, and you can thank god for fooling those morons into believing they have be nice to the poor.
Santa doesn't need to be real, because the things Santa represents still are. For at least one part of the year, Americans remember those things. If they kept that going all year round, the world would change in a snap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Poster
Thats right! You went on a little 'trip'. How are things now?
Christmas is a really special time of year that people remember to be giving to the poor, but im not giving credit to santa, im giving credit to christendom. It would be nice if those special feelings lasted longer than the holidays.
Topics like this make me glad I am never having kids. I have such a low value of material goods that going through the effort of encouraging a child to be good for the sake of a omniscient immortal watching them so they can get a trinket is very unappealing.
It seems to me that there are two things people dislike about the Santa Claus business:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias
1. Lying is wrong (especially during such a long period)
2. The values that surround Santa Claus are not valuable (they encourage the superficial desire for material goods)
I would argue against these two points but it would make me closed minded because these two arguments are, as a matter of fact, very reasonable.
There remains however, the arguments for Santa Claus"
1. Kids love it. It's a game that we can play as a society. That is what is fun with tradition, everyone does it. Our culture is getting more and more seculiar and this is causing us to put aside our traditions which is making us less colorful society. Yes, you might still be very creative but there is something valuable in a society that comes together at certain periods of the year to decorate the town and make the city special with ornaments and trees. This is not something that gets done without holidays such as Halloween, Christmas or the Chinese New Year. Tradition gives us this.
Now, is there a compromise we can make? I've thought about this briefly and I cannot think of anything satisfying. I mean, about the argument 2 against Santa, it's all about talking to your kids and telling them what morals they are suppose to take out of things such "It's not the material goods that are important but being together and doing good deeds". It's all about parenting. Besides, are you implying you will never ever get anything for your kids? My parents never bought me toys. There were only two days in the year I could expect to have toys and those days were my birthday and Christmas. If my parents had said "No, it's bad values", I would just of been a toyless kid. I don't see how this is so important, that a kid be toyless. I grew up to be very unconcerned with material good.
When I wrote this post, I thought I would come with something insightful but really... no. I have nothing else to give. My conclusion is: Christmas is fun and people are thinking too hard about the negative side of christmas. Everything has negative side. Christmas is when I learnt about mortality.
I think, I will personally put twists on the Santa Claus story. I want my kids to have to solve mysteries to find their toys. They'll have to earn it. :)
I think there's a way to change our traditions to match our evolving society in a way that keeps our society playful.
I agree, a lot of traditions are worth keeping.
Sometimes I find myself looking in disdain at humanity, how people can act so ruthlessly when they come together worries me. A key cause to so many human problems is lack of education, severe cultures, mindlessly following traditions. It really makes you want to reach for a more even educated world.
But thinking of plans for the future, I always over-reach. I get rid of things that make the world a richer place. I think...
- What good is religion?
- Why do people celebrate 18th birthdays?
- Why is the education system still so primitive?
- What use is "sticking with friends"?
Then I think of all the culture and tradition that has been ruined already by people trying to make the world more "educated". So many civilizations have lost their history and culture to be like the westerners. Every day traditions are abandoned.
But not all cultures and traditions are bad. Why can't we mix them with proper educations and ideals. All traditions (even religions) bring people together and usually at their core for a morally righteous purpose. I find it such a shame that rich cultures like that of the Japanese have disintegrated by harsh western influence. Maybe the disintegration of culture is the effect of a more educated world, personally I would like to keep as much of our heritage as possible and embrace what wonderful things our ancestors have created alongside bettering our society.
Essentially what I'm saying is that we should be careful before we decide to scrap a tradition or culture, because once it's gone you can be sure it won't come back and you might have lost something very special.
You didn't quote the more important part of my post: I'm not having children, so I was mostly giving my two cents on why this topic wouldn't have been fun for me to deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Occipitalred
I'm sorry, I just felt like the rest of your post somewhat summarized other people's lack of interest for Santa Claus. I wasn't directing my response to you, oops :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias