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    1. #1
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      Lying about Santa

      So I have a 4 year old nephew, and a few days before Christmas he counted up all the gifts under his Christmas tree, and then Christmas morning comes and he is crying because Santa Claus didn't leave him any gifts! He got extra gifts but his mother put them all under the tree(it wasn't labeled or anything so easy to say it was from Santa) without thinking he would notice. Now they came up a solution for their problem, and they had a couple of extra gifts which they pulled out and said Santa had left them at the front door. Problem solved, right?

      Well originally I got a call from my mother, and she wanted me to say Santa left the gifts with me, then she could give them to me before I got there, and I could then give them to him. However, I told her I didn't want to do that. I suggested we just tell him the truth, that there isn't any Santa. Which brings me to why I am posting. Do you think it is okay to lie to children about Santa?

      My personal opinion is that I don't think I should lie to children at all. My mother and sister however seem to think telling a child Santa isn't real is sacrilege. They were like yelling at me, when I even mentioned that Santa wasn't real while at their house, in fear that my nephew might accidentally overhear. I didn't actually tell him, because I don't want to be pushy with how my sister raises her child, but even mentioning it when he was out of the room made them uncomfortable, so I didn't push the issue at all. Still I feel like he should be told the truth.

      When I asked my mother why we can't tell him the truth, she just said he was 4, as if that was an answer. To me, that sounds like. "He is young and gullible and is so an easy target to lie to." The only reason a kid gets upset when they learn Santa isn't real, is because they were told he was real in the first place. If no one said he was real, they wouldn't be upset when they find out he isn't.

      Also, I feel like a child, even a 4 year old, can understand the concept of fictional character. They watch tv and movies and stuff like that. If I were to say, "You know that the teenage mutant ninja turtles and people like iron man are not real people, and are just characters right?" I think he would understand that and know they are not people. If I then said, "Santa is a character just like them." I think he could understand it as well. I don't think him knowing a Santa is a fictional character is going to subtract from the holiday at all. I am also fairly sure a child is going to understand if you say that people pretend he is real because it is fun. I mean children pretend to be things all the time but they know what they pretend isn't real and that doesn't reduce their enjoyment of it.

      Any way, I am wondering what other people think, and what they tell children.
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    2. #2
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      Alric

      Twas the night*Before Christmas
      When all through the house
      Not a creature was stirring
      Not even a mouse

      The stockings all hung
      By the chimney with care
      In hopes*That St. Nicholas
      Soon would be there

      Poem written in 1822.
      (191 years ago)

      ***

      The true story of Santa Claus begins with Nicholas, who was born during the third century in the village ofPatara. At the time the area was Greek and is now on the southern coast of Turkey.

      His wealthy parents, who raised him to be a devout Christian, died in an epidemic while Nicholas was still young.

      Obeying Jesus' words to "sell what you own and give the money to the poor," Nicholas used his whole inheritance to assist the needy, the sick, and the suffering.

      He dedicated his life to serving God and was made Bishop*of*Myra*while still a young man. Bishop Nicholas became known throughout the land for his generosity to*those in need, his love for children, and his concern for sailors and ships.

      (...)

      He died December 6, AD 343.

      (...)

      One story tells of a poor man with three daughters. In those days a young woman's father had to offer prospective husbands something of value—a dowry. The larger the dowry, the better the chance that a young woman would find a good husband.

      Without a dowry, a woman was unlikely to marry. This poor man's daughters, without*dowries, were therefore destined to be sold into slavery.

      Mysteriously, on three different occasions, a bag of gold appeared in their home-providing the needed dowries. The bags of gold, tossed through an open window, are said to have landed in stockings or shoes left before the fire to dry.

      This led to the custom of children hanging stockings or putting out shoes, eagerly awaiting gifts from*Saint Nicholas.

      So Alric

      Saint Nick was real and a good person for children to look up to and copy. It is a shame he was displaced (in children's imagination) by Santa (amagram of Satan).

      Satan is a lier and the father of lies.

      Some say the shock of finding out that your parents (and the whole community) lied to you (and made a fool of you) about there being a Santa, is good. Because it won't be as big a shock to learn that your parents (and the whole community) lied to you about there being a God.

      So

      One way to help (a bit) would be to give the gift of a childrens book about the real Father Christmas who did many legendary things and died 343 years after Jesus' birth.

      Later, probably at school, the child's peers will laugh at him for still believing in Santa, but he will be able to tellum who the real Santa was.

      ***

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZfS...e_gdata_player

      ***(5:58) 2, 665.144 views

      The "show more"

      The perfect Christmas gift for your little ones. An adorable cartoon of the Christmas classic, presented and narrated by you!

    3. #3
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
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      I think the american obsession *because im not sure if its true elsewhere?* of telling kids that santa is real is seriously disturbing. I did not grow up believing in santa. Being the youngest, my parents 'gave up' trying to get me to believe in santa. It wouldn't have worked because my older sisters would have just teased about believing in santa anyways.

      Ever since I was a child, I knew that my presents came from my parents. I was happy with that. Why did anyone ever imagine that children need to give thanks to a fictional character for the hard work of their parents? I thought santa was just a cartoon character, and like you said, kids understand cartoon characters are just cartoons.

      But even at the age of 10 I started to notice a disturbing trend. Adults seriously go out of their way to get kids to believe in santa. News stations will track down santa. America's most wanted and other similar shows were also tracking down santa - to find him so we can give thanks. Hell, I remember a skit years back where NASA was tracking down santa. If you went to my catholic church, there's santa talking to kids about Jesus.

      And now google?

      And I swear they've made it a crime for any public broadcast station to even utter the words 'santa isn't real'. I don't get it. Kids wouldn't be traumatized about it if you didn't lie to them to begin with. And why the hell is this culture so obsessed with lying to kids? And christians wonder why so many doubt the church, when the church doesn't even have the balls to say 'santa isn't real'. Instead they use some lame excuse that santa is good for kids until they can accept christ. But there is no relationship.

      Telling kids theres a fat old man who magically gives all children of all the world toys on christmas is an insult to the millions of kids who suffer.

      Once upon a time parents didn't raise kids to be ignorantly selfish. But aware of everything their parents do so that they don't have to suffer.

    4. #4
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      Totally agree with you Alric.

      I never believed in Santa. My family is non-christian, so there was no tradition of giving gifts. Even my parents weren't aware of the story of Santa coming in a sleigh and leaving gifts. That was something I saw in cartoons. Same with easter bunny, tooth fairy and all such things. I knew about them as characters from cartoons or books, not from my parents.

      I don't get the point of making up such a lie. What good does it do? Just because they're kids it doesn't mean they don't deserve to know the truth. I am against the idea of people lying to kids about anything.
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      I've also never believed in santa as far as I remember, and I also think to better not tell that lie.
      But i'm certain it has aso its positive sides - or had. Because you know, the story of santa is about getting presents if you're good, getting coal if you don't behave. That was a way to make children behave and to tell them when they misbehave from a seemingly objective point of view.
      The problem with this is, that most parents would never give their children coal as a christmas present. And I am happy about this, because I probabla would have lived in constant fear.
      But still, they had a point, else the story of santa wouldn't have come to almost everywhere.

      I would also like to mention that I don't agree with the following:
      " Because it won't be as big a shock to learn that your parents (and the whole community) lied to you about there being a God."
      The difference between santa and god is that the parents believe in god. Is that still a lie if you think its real (or make yourself think it is) ?
      God is to the parents something like santa to the children:
      Some believe in it, some not. And if you misbehave, you'll have to pay for it.
      And again it is the same argumentation: in earlyer centuries, religion was improtant to make people behave, to not to murder and so on. today, we don't need that because some of the population are educated not to harm others (pacifists and less extreme versions) and some are stopped of harming others by the police.

      That'd lead to a new question. It's clear that making people peaceful by explaining them why is the best way. But it won't always work, so is it better to lie to people or to force them using weapons?
      Honestly, if noone noticed that the bible doesn't fit in our scientifics believs, we'd live pretty happy. Yes, maybe you could compare that to sheep, but at least they're happy sheeps.

      (Let the hate flow through you)

    6. #6
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      To counter the reality gone astray with anger, hatred, and disdain..

      Such is as insane as the situation that has arisen


      Havago pierces the darkness with a ray of pure light...

      Let Love, Understanding , and Realization flow

      Signature work courtesy of Cloud

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      I definitively agree Alric - it is not fair to make fools of your children - also - he sure is in a kindergarten, where other children will mock him for believing it.
      What a load of crap.
      It is something American that the whole society tries to hold this bs up - but this question also exists round here.
      Actually - I was told it was a story only, that the christ-child (instead of Santa - itīs more common to have it called like this round here..) puts the presents under the tree - but my mom somehow managed to play out the fairy-tale aspects anyway.
      Donīt know how she did that - I knew, the presents came from her - but anyway - I had to wait till - 5 oīclock it was I believe - and a bell was struck - "once the christ-child was done".
      She actually also told me, that the stories in the bible were just stories - to transport a message of love and forgiveness - and that the new testament had overthrown the old one as sort of obsolete.
      When I was very young - 4 years actually.

      What my grandma and many others thought was total lunacy was that she also told me, where the babies come from at age 4.
      Because I kept asking and asking.
      The problems people have with that are their own (only) dirty thoughts - to be told that a sort of lego connection takes place when a man and a woman love each other, and thus mix their properties like this for a child to be grown in the motherīs womb - where is the problem with that?
      Basic anatomy was known to me anyway - having seen naked specimens of both sexes.
      To be honest - for a long while, I was unsure, how well that would work with rather wobbly lego components on the one side...lol.

      Anyway - what I want to say is - 4 year olds understand a lot of things - and certainly about fictional characters.
      There is a lot of howling, how you would take this Santa away from kids, and how cruel that would be - bs - first of all they get implanted with this idea, which sooner or later will be ripped from them.
      What is worse then feeling like a total idiot, when told by schoolmates, how one had been fooled for ages - and so skillfully, that they didnīt see through.
      What has to follow, is that they loose trust in their parents - if such a thing gets pulled off - who knows what else is.
      Best guess: a lot!

    8. #8
      Xei
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      Quote Originally Posted by juroara View Post
      Why did anyone ever imagine that children need to give thanks to a fictional character for the hard work of their parents?
      You only give gifts because of the gratitude you get back? Wow, no wonder you don't understand Christmas.

      It's charity, and it's one of the best days in a kid's life, they love it.

      But even at the age of 10 I started to notice a disturbing trend. Adults seriously go out of their way to get kids to believe in santa. News stations will track down santa. America's most wanted and other similar shows were also tracking down santa - to find him so we can give thanks. Hell, I remember a skit years back where NASA was tracking down santa. If you went to my catholic church, there's santa talking to kids about Jesus.

      And now google?
      Telling kids about Santa is not an "American" thing.

      And the things you're referring to are, firstly, fun for kids, and secondly, a laugh for adults. It's not a fucking conspiracy juroara. Merry Christmas.
      dutchraptor and Sageous like this.

    9. #9
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
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      Seriously Xei? You want to be personal about this? You have a problem with me, then I have a problem with you. Continue posting in this manner and I will report you for harassment. Im not even the person who created this thread.

      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      You only give gifts because of the gratitude you get back? Wow, no wonder you don't understand Christmas.
      I dont even know where you get off insinuating this crap. All I meant was WHEN I WAS A CHILD I was MORE THAN HAPPY to give THANKS to my PARENTS rather than an imaginary character named Santa. And I consider that a much nicer relationship between parent and child. If you have a problem with that, then I dont know what your issue is.

      It's charity, and it's one of the best days in a kid's life, they love it.
      Was anyone in this thread arguing against giving a kid presents? No one. You're making an argument out of nothing. I love giving presents.

      And the things you're referring to are, firstly, fun for kids, and secondly, a laugh for adults
      That's your opinion, and were entitled to ours.

      It's not a fucking conspiracy juroara.
      What conspiracy Xei?

      Merry Christmas.
      Like I can't read through your sarcasm.

    10. #10
      Xei
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      Nobody's "harassing you" muffin.

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      Family was Jewish. I remember in pre-school I got in trouble for telling some kids there was no Santa something like that. It may have been the Easter bunny or even Jesus. Something like that. I guess the school told my mom and she had a talk with me about not telling the Christian kids we don't believe in that stuff. There wasn't really a point in telling that story, this thread just reminded me of it.

      I guess in general I'm against lying to kids. Like if I had my own, I wouldn't lie to them about anything like that. As others have hinted at, the more you lie to kids, the harder it will be for them to distinguish between truth and fiction when they have to eventually. The more of a blow it will be when they realize death is real and absolute, and there is no magical fantasy realm of any kind, etc. Though, for the kids, believing in that kind of thing is fun at the time. So in a way I understand the desire to tell them it is, to let them have something to be nostalgic about.
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      I think i agree most with Juroara here. Solid points.

      But i think we are exaggerating the impact of telling a story to little kids. It is just a story. When they grow up we tell them the truth. I for one am not scarred for the rest of my life because i believed in santa. On the other hand, i didn't quite pay it that much attention and i was exposed to the truth long before my parents decided i was "ready" to "know".. lol

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      I grew up believing in Santa Claus and I am happy I did. I loved every minute of all my gullible beliefs and I would not want to lose them. Kids slowly discover that Santa Claus does not exist and I know no one that ever got mad at their parents or felt any negative emotion discovering that their parents had lied to them about Santa Claus. Instead, kids feel like they have outsmarted their parents and their peers when they discover the truth and they sometimes see if they can make their parents believe that they still believe in Santa Claus. It's Christmas. It's a game. Everyone gets it. Everyone likes it. No one sees it as a lie except for adults who think too much about it.

      Keep the lie alive!

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      I ♥ your avatar OccipitalRed (panda)

      And I ♡ your participation in this thread.

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      Thank you Havago!

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      I don't like the tradition very much myself, your concern is comforting. Along with religious beliefs, I'd like the see all supernatural beliefs die out eventually. I think telling kids about things like Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny just delays and maybe even diminishes appreciation for an authentic scientific approach to reality. I don't think any time should be wasted before trying to stoke that. It also seems disrespectful to their god-given intellect to treat them like a lesser species that can be lied to in artificially cheerful ways. If I ever had kids, I would probably just replace Santa by emphasizing the importance and joys of relationships, empathy, and charity. Maybe I would even say it's the birthday of a philosopher who taught those things. I have a lot of nostalgia for Christmas and it has a place in my heart, so I don't think I would change it completely. I would at least start with not lying to them about supernatural phenomena. The tree thing kind of bothers me as well, but that's a different story. Basically, I think for children's minds to be optimally honed parents should treat them like humans with the ability to reason and embellish the opportunity to do so in this beautiful and wonderful existence. I have nothing against imagination, some Christmas stories with Santa in them are great. I just think trying to embellish reality with supernatural beliefs is unnecessary and possibly counterproductive.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaerer View Post
      I don't like the tradition very much myself, your concern is comforting. Along with religious beliefs, I'd like the see all supernatural beliefs die out eventually. I think telling kids about things like Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny just delays and maybe even diminishes appreciation for an authentic scientific approach to reality. I don't think any time should be wasted before trying to stoke that. It also seems disrespectful to their god-given intellect to treat them like a lesser species that can be lied to in artificially cheerful ways. If I ever had kids, I would probably just replace Santa by emphasizing the importance and joys of relationships, empathy, and charity. Maybe I would even say it's the birthday of a philosopher who taught those things. I have a lot of nostalgia for Christmas and it has a place in my heart, so I don't think I would change it completely. I would at least start with not lying to them about supernatural phenomena. The tree thing kind of bothers me as well, but that's a different story. Basically, I think for children's minds to be optimally honed parents should treat them like humans with the ability to reason and embellish the opportunity to do so in this beautiful and wonderful existence. I have nothing against imagination, some Christmas stories with Santa in them are great. I just think trying to embellish reality with supernatural beliefs is unnecessary and possibly counterproductive.
      See, I also think the world would be a better place without religion. Why? Because religions aren't actually religions, they're really just a set of traditions that people put so much importance in as to consider other people who do not have the same traditions inferior.

      On the other hand, I think religion brings something very important. It does not affect people's consideration for science. In fact, many religious people are scientists. What religion brings is something very special, and I should quote an author in the pharmaceutical field that said that indigenous people had the same level of intelligence as us, they just chose to put this intelligence into putting information into myths rather than to focus on technology. Myths, traditions, religion carry meaning and people who read beyond the superficial appearance of things can discover a lot. Science is good with physical truths. Myths are good with abstract concepts. They complement each other. They do not harm eachother.

      Also, I don't want to repeat myself, but when parents tell their kids about Santa Claus, it is not because they think their kids our dumb and gullible and easy to manipulate. It is simply to put magic into their lives and I think that is very important for kids. We lose that as adults so why take it away from them. It allows them to develop their creativity and all. No harm done. Just curiosity for things that go beyond what is seen. Science can be taught along with it. Both complement eachother. They are not opposing forces. They are siblings.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      Science is good with physical truths. Myths are good with abstract concepts. They complement each other. They do not harm eachother
      I agree with this, but there's a difference between myths and beliefs. It just doesn't seem to me like there's any need to add an excess of "magic" to a kid's perspective of reality. By your definition of it, a relatively honest perspective holds more than enough magic to keep them entertained for a lifetime. Also, a man who gives everyone gifts in one night out of the kindness of his heart while keeping everyone in scientific ignorance about how that's possible seems kind of contradictory to me. lol
      Last edited by Wayfaerer; 12-29-2013 at 03:35 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaerer View Post
      It just doesn't seem to me like there's any need to add an excess of "magic" to a kid's perspective of reality. By your definition of it, a relatively honest perspective holds more than enough magic to keep them entertained for a lifetime.
      Yes. You are right.

      Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaerer View Post
      Also, a man who gives everyone gifts in one night out of the kindness of his heart while keeping everyone in scientific ignorance about how that's possible seems kind of contradictory to me. lol
      Again, you are right.

      I have no rational arguments to give you. The only thing I have to say is, I think people are thinking too much about this. Kids only think about Santa Claus in December, and they soon reach an age where they know it was just a game. They do not go on believing in a false truth.

      It's the kind of thing like, why do you put forks on the left of the plate and the spoon on the right side. There is no ethical reason to do that, we just do it by tradition and it is not harmful. I would just like to hear of one person who believed in Santa Claus as a child and who felt harmed by their parents (as kids) when they discovered Santa Claus to a level where it wasn't worth it to lie and who also grew up to not appreciate the scientific method because of it.

      Magic was such an important part of my childhood. If I had to define my childhood with one word, that's what it would be, magic. Now, I study science.

      Anyways... Why do you all have to make me feel so bad about it!? Now, I'm forced to find an honest way to celebrate christmas!!
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      I actually retained my belief in Santa's existence until middle school, at which point I became apathetic toward the subject. I got presents; I didn't care whom they were from.


      I don't plan on having kids when I'm older, but it's bound to happen anyway, so here's how I would handle the Santa situation:

      I'd start the gifting tradition early, so it becomes something that just is. I wouldn't bring up Santa and would just say things like, "Look what Mommy and Daddy got you!"

      Obviously, he'd find out about Santa through friends, media, etc. I wouldn't necessarily outright tell him,"Oh, Santa? He's fake," but I might drop hints and let him figure it out for himself.
      ERROR 404: SIGNATURE NOT FOUND

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      As a child I was more disturbed by the ending of The Hunchback of Notre Dame than the realization that Santa was fictional.

      I don't believe fiction is to blame here, just poor context.

      I've never been a parent but from what I gather the idea is to provide context and let the young ones make their own connections, like a good story, or book...

      Looking back, leaving thanks and gifts for Santa (and carrots for his reindeer) reflects how I still feel about Christmas...even at my age.

      The Polar Express isn't any less great for being fictional.

      Was Calvin any less great for being stuffed? Or drawn? (Me thinks not!)
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      In today's world a little magic may be a decent distraction for children. It's not a bad thing. By the time they figure it out they start seeing the world the way it actually is. Reality sucks! And most of us probably look back with mostly positive memories about the whole Santa situation anyway. No harm done. Let's move on to more important issues.

    23. #23
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      Fairies are magical. Dragons are magical. But even in middle school I thought santa was lame :b

    24. #24
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      I almost didn't believe in kids who believe in Santa, I thought that was just a movie thing. Guess it's an America thing.

      Quote Originally Posted by LucidAurora View Post
      In today's world a little magic may be a decent distraction for children. It's not a bad thing. By the time they figure it out they start seeing the world the way it actually is. Reality sucks!
      No it doesn't, getting presents from your whole family rocks.
      And yes, magic is great, but you can get those kinds of thrills (distractions? okay...) from fiction like books and movies and games - fiction can be overtly fictive without the magic disappearing.

      And most of us probably look back with mostly positive memories about the whole Santa situation anyway. No harm done. Let's move on to more important issues.
      A culture that accepts perpetual ritualistic lying to children is an important issue, even if it feels trivial to you. And also "let's move on to more important issues" has to be on some kind of top ten list of bad arguments. The world can handle dealing with several issues at once and we certainly can handle discussing several on a forum, too.

    25. #25
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      I am extremely glad I believed in Santa Claus until I was 8. It was a beautiful belief, and it made Christmas time have a magical quality that helped create some of my best childhood memories. I thank my parents for telling me Santa Claus was real. I am glad they ended up coming clean, but it was a harmless and beautiful white lie they told me temporarily. I have no regrets over it. Scientific realism and skepticism are for teens and adults.

      Also, finding out that Santa Claus is not real was the most mind-blowing, tripped out moment of my entire life. It was so awesome.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


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