Open Letter: Philosophy Forum

[dream-scape]

To the administration and moderation teams: Please clean up the philosophy forum or consider renaming it. Sadly the forum has hit an all time low. The amount of threads and posts that have turned into nothing more than stoning each other to near death, kicking and screaming, insulting, crudeness, rudeness, and outright indecency has long past the point of utterly ridiculous. I implore the administration and moderation teams to seriously look into taking some kind of action and active role in governing the forum, whether it be moving threads that don't belong there to more suitable forums such as banter [preferably before they get out of control], closing threads down, renaming the forum to something like "cage matches", "penis fights", etc, or even removing the forum all together if we cannot display the ability to be decent human beings. In its present form, it is demoralizing to the community and promotes hatred and ill-will. I can only hope you seriously consider this matter in your many tasks of governing Dream Views. I can also only hope that either something is done, or people come to self-realizations and turn it around on their own before the philosophy forum becomes a dark spot of Dream Views and a dark spot of the internet; a place where no one wants to go. Though for this, I fear it may already be the case. With love

[Ynot]

I agree with this, up to a point I think the admin / mod staff have been quite good in the forum design keeping the dream topics on the main index page and the AOB on a seperate "off-topic" page People who come here for the primary purpose of lucid dreaming are pretty much barriered off from the off topic forums, unless they choose to go there I would agree totally, if the relegious banter was intermingled amoungst the serious dream threads that would make the forum as a whole, hard work but the users here are very good at maintaining that barrier I also agree that some users (particularly new registrations, and people of a sensative nature) may find the discussion nothing more than stoning each other to near death, kicking and screaming, insulting, crudeness, rudeness, and outright indecency[/b] This was certainly a problem I encountered when administering my (now defunct) Hip-hop forum. One of the biggest problems is that sarcasm and joking do not always come over well in text. Most people can tell the difference, but there are times when one man's idle throw away joke may seem a little harsh to third parties. However this is a problem faced by most discussion boards, and there is no real effective way to tackle it, apart from rigorous and iron fisted moderation, which is often far worse. Forums need to stay "alive" to be successful Alive, meaning either - There's a wealth of interesting information that that's constantly being added to that means people keep coming back - There's a fun, entertaining, jovial community of people (much like a pub) that people feel comfortable in just hanging out. This forum has both.

[Ex Nine]

Win-win scenario for all users: Post more quality in the lucid dreams sections.

[icedawg]

Thanks for expressing your concerns. I suppose if people refuse to practice tolerance we could simply ban all discussions of religion from the forum. The idea has come up several times before, but it is something I've never really reached a decision on. I suppose this forum is, after all, supposed to be a practical site, thus very light on the spiritual side so that no one feels excluded. And that was always the intent of this site: to make everyone feel welcome. So if people are insistent on bullying their beliefs upon others, which I know we've all witnessed, there is the aforementioned simple solution. Has it really come to that though? I don't know.

[kimpossible]

As I've said before - I really don't care what your religion is. I don't, however, appreciate having it crammed in my face all the time. It's your delusion. Enjoy it in the privacy of your own home, or where others of your kind exclusively meet. As it is, you're doing your door-knockers a great disservice. I refuse in my annoyance to be terribly bothered if the dog accidentally slips out the next time someone knocks on my door wanting to further shove that crap down my throat. Someone is going to get beaten with their own leg, and that's on your collective heads. (the bible thumpers all seem to be just about as illiterate as awaken is. It would probably also have issues with comprehending "No Trespassing" "No Soliciting" and "Beware of Dog signage.) In short, if I wanted the religious mumbojumbo tripe, I'd go to a religious forum. Since I tend to believe that's not the point here - I'm certainly going to make the environment less welcoming to it.

[WaveShaper]

I don't often post in the Philosophy forum, but I do read it very often - this is because I'm not really confident about expressing my views on such matters brought up (I will get involved more soon hopefully ) What I have noticed, however, is that when a religious topic is opened (e.g: Is God Coverned by Laws etc) half of the posts seem to be atheists just going on about how there is no God. Ok, I dont mind people not believing in God, but please don't go around wrecking these topics. I think others would agree that we don't want to hear you going on at how our beliefs are wrong, when we are trying to having a discussion on them. If you don't believe in a God don't bother posting unconstructive posts. Please, don't just blame the reilgious posters for the "penis talk". I hope I put my view across clearly.

[Ex Nine]

Phallam, you're wrong. Originally posted by phallam I think others would agree that we don't want to hear you going on at how our beliefs are wrong, when we are trying to having a discussion on them. Why would you have a discussion about them, if you weren't interested in which bits were wrong, confusing, or totally unfounded?

[WaveShaper]

im just saying that i've seen, in many instances, where people just say (obviously not in these exact words); "There is no God, so therefore, you are wrong". Even when the discussion is about, say, how God IS something. It's just silly.

[kimpossible]

Absolutely. If it's constantly in my face, I'm going to make the delusion clear.

[DuB]

If it were up to me, I'd remove the philosophy forum altogether. It isn't relevant to the topic of dreams, and while the authors of the site acknowledge this by placing it in the off-topic section, the fact is that 90% of all that occurs there is petty arguing and violent bashing of one another's opinions. If you guys are really into philosophy and want to talk about it, that's fine; there's plenty of other philosophy forums out there, just use Google. I don't think that we want or need any of that ultimately pointless bickering on Dream Views.

[Ex Nine]

Actually, DuB, philosophy is extremely relevant to dreams. Studying dreams can be very difficult if we are not aware of the philosophical assumptions and reasonings that underpin the way see them. Just as philosophy of mathematics underpins mathematics, and philosophy of science underpins science, and so on for every other subject, an informal and still tacit "philosophy of dreaming" underpins our dreaming. It affects the way we talk about dreaming at all levels. Many of the conflicts in dream studies are rooted in philosophical differences. The occult sectarianists and inclusionists are a prime example. If anything the philosophy section should be given more prominence, in the form of a section devoted specifically to pursuits in the informal "philosophy of dreaming." Perhaps someday it can be formal.

[DuB]

Okay, I buy that. So let's change it to a "philosophy of dreams" forum, and move it out of the off-topic section. I'm not even being sarcastic, I think that could be a good idea. What do you guys think of this?

[Ex Nine]

If that happens, then, in order for that section to not be polluted, there should probably still be another general philosophy forum to dump all the wayward junk. Philosophy is about questioning things. It involved examining and perhaps tearing to shreds each other's deeply held assumptions simultaneously with our own. But the goal is always a better understanding, one that hopefully offers us more power, direction, and focus. Personally, I don't think that the section would be treated very well. It would require, I think, people to have at least some basic training in philosophy (learning to question and examine things in detail while keeping a larger concept in mind), and whole lot of maturity. I don't want to be disappointed after it's made. :sweat2:

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by dream-scape To the administration and moderation teams: Please clean up the philosophy forum or consider renaming it. Sadly the forum has hit an all time low. The amount of threads and posts that have turned into nothing more than stoning each other to near death, kicking and screaming, insulting, crudeness, rudeness, and outright indecency has long past the point of utterly ridiculous. I implore the administration and moderation teams to seriously look into taking some kind of action and active role in governing the forum, whether it be moving threads that don't belong there to more suitable forums such as banter [preferably before they get out of control], closing threads down, renaming the forum to something like \"cage matches\", \"penis fights\", etc, or even removing the forum all together if we cannot display the ability to be decent human beings. In its present form, it is demoralizing to the community and promotes hatred and ill-will. I can only hope you seriously consider this matter in your many tasks of governing Dream Views. I can also only hope that either something is done, or people come to self-realizations and turn it around on their own before the philosophy forum becomes a dark spot of Dream Views and a dark spot of the internet; a place where no one wants to go. Though for this, I fear it may already be the case. With love Tattletail! Why can't some people mind their own business? Does there always have to be these Nazis demanding that we all goose-step to the beat of their own maniacal drummers. Is over-moderation and banning all discussion REALLY in our best interests? Yes, it makes for a clean page. It makes for an empty page. You know, just for the sake of Irony, I think that the Moderators should ban anyone who suggests that more people should be banned. People like you want BANNING. Well, you should get it. You don't like it here, so you're not welcome here. Maybe you would learn something of a lesson about freedom of speech... that if you don't allow it, then you don't get it.

[Rakkantekimusouka]

Leo: Um...yeah. Anyway, I'm all for banning religious discussion. It's not about censorship at this point, it's about evangelist crap knowing no freaking boundaries and sucking up everything in it's path. Of course, we could just clamp shut the main source of all the recent junk, and ban Awaken4e1 instead. Ice-man, it's your call.

[Placebo]

I agree with there being a problem. I've voiced my opinion in a few threads in that section recently. Rather than banning all religious debates, I would rather consider being more strict in regard to being more courteous to each other. Its not the religion thats the problem - its the ripping of heads.

[dream-scape]

Originally posted by Placebo I would rather consider being more strict in regard to being more courteous to each other. Its not the religion thats the problem - its the ripping of heads. Placebo, thank for you taking the time to be one of the few to actually read and understand what I was saying in the letter.

[DuB]

I understood what you were saying perfectly, I guess I'm just the kind of person who would say "fuck it" and remove the forum rather than trying to play referree. Although, admittedly, this might just be because I have 0 (ZERO) interest in topics such as "Is God bound by any laws of reality?" as well as 95% of all the other stupid shit in there. So I guess I'm somewhat biased.

[Ex Nine]

Hey, don't I get any thanks? This does not necessarily apply to the current case, but just because people agree with you doesn't mean they understand you.

[dream-scape]

Originally posted by Ex Nine Hey, don't I get any thanks? Perhaps But my post was starting to be misconstrued by some as being anti-religious, quasi-nazi, hard fisted, let's ban people, ban him, ban her, ban this type of thread, ban that type of thread, etc, etc... all of which are gross misperceptions of what I actually wrote. Placebo hit the nail on the head, and I felt it necessary to acknowledge that

[icedawg]

hrm. I'm not overly keen on the idea of completely banning the discussion of anything. I think, perhaps, I'll draw up some binding guidelines about how discussions can proceed within the philosophy section. There really is a mature and considerate way of discussing any topic; unfortunately some people are very bull-headed and haven't patience for deviance from their own ideas & truths. What everyone needs to understand is I built this place for >everyone<, and not just you & your beliefs & your ideas. Too many people just don't get that there is no "universal truth"--how can there be, when we all believe different things? How can one's belief be more true than another, if they each believe it with the same depth and level of passion? It's the belief itself that is important and true to each individual, and it's simply retarded to argue beliefs: no one ever gets anywhere doing so, and instead many people are just left feeling hurt afterwards. I think a lot of people perhaps just miss the point of this forum; perhaps they need to reread the first couple pages of the main site, which strongly emphasizes this place is built on practicality & tolerance. If people refuse to tolerate others here, they need to move on. It's basically like me inviting you all into my house...if you can't behave like a decent person, you're simply not welcome here. I refuse to continue paying for intolerant people to use this place if they're going to continue going against some very simple & reasonable founding principles. Probably I'll post the guidelines, and then go into details of what recourse we'll consider appropriate for violators. Likely people will get a warning, then a 2 week banning, then complete removal of posting privileges from the relevant forum (e.g. philosophy) indefinitely.

[kimpossible]

How about adding the "ignore" mod so that people and/or entire forums can be ignored?

[Ex Nine]

Originally posted by icedawg Too many people just don't get that there is no \"universal truth\"--how can there be, when we all believe different things? How can one's belief be more true than another, if they each believe it with the same depth and level of passion? ... It's appropriate you brought this up because an understanding of this is central to proper philosophical discourse. And... well... what you said is a common misunderstanding. The fact that many people believe different things is not a proof of relativism (that all of their beliefs are simultaneously valid). If we want people to listen to each other and gain a shared understanding, I'm not sure that it is a very good idea to adopt a relativist approach, which is essentially \"you have your ideas, I have mine, let's not have to change them.\" Philosophy is exactly about probing the depths of those beliefs. In an informal non-academic setting, I would only expect it to get very messy. It gets even messier in formal settings! It's the belief itself that is important and true to each individual, and it's simply retarded to argue beliefs: no one ever gets anywhere doing so, and instead many people are just left feeling hurt afterwards.[/b] That's the temptation and benefit relativism offers. There would be fewer wars if we were all relativists. But, then, there would also be fewer conversations, fewer ideas exchanged, less growth, and IMHO, absolutely no understanding. To sum up, we can be respectful and tolerant without having to go relativist. Here are a few suggestions we might add to a sticky in the philosophy section, or in fact to the whole forum. 1) An attack on your ideas is not necessarily an attack on you. 2) When uncertain about being attacked, give the benefit of the doubt. 3) Don't take your ideas personally. In other words, do not make it so that an attack on your ideas actually is an attack on you. 4) Don't be afraid to be playful. 5) Pay little attention to InTheMoment. I mean, have some decency. It's possible to be tolerant and respectful of other people's ideas and each other in a philosophy forum, but I don't think that kind of perfection is realistic.

[DuB]

Excellent post, Ex. I agree fully.

[Rakkantekimusouka]

Originally posted by DuB Excellent post, Ex. I agree fully. Hear, hear! I guess I posted a few times fanning the flames in there, and I can assure Ice, and everyone: that will never happen again. I relish discussions in the Philosophy Forum, and especially if certain guidelines and subsequent consequences, such as revoking of forum posting priveleges, are put in place, then the last thing I would want to do is jeopardize my ability to participate in intelligent philosophic discussion. I feel bad that it has come to this, however, all we can do now is move forward -- like philosophy itself.