Beyond Confusion

[bochen4]

I apologize for not writting very clearly, if anything has anyone ideas or comments that would be great. I understand this is not directly about 'dreaming', but I believe it has a lot to do with some of the more enlightening aspects of dreaming. By my perceiving it (inanimate objects) should not perceive. There is no longer the question of if I perceive, or do existence exist. asking such has no meaning and no essence will be found there. I do exist, in some manner or form, some way, however obscure. I do perceive, even if this perceiving is not really perceiving but what non-perceiving has caused me to believe in the illusion of perception. Whatever the case, this 'perceiving' is real, and there is no denying that fact. Therefore it could be said that it is through perception that all things exist, or rather it is because of the fact that things do indeed exist (as they MUST be) that has given rise to this abstract layer of reality we humans call perception, consciousness, or awareness. Things of the physical universe has always (indeed LONG LONG AGO) existed even before our own perception or awareness of the fact that such things exist. However it is still through our perception that we believe that things can exists outside of our own perceptions, it is still through our perception that we believe a 'perception' layer of reality exists at all! So maybe, could it be that it is actually through our non-perception (physical, raw data, etc) do we believe (falsely) in this model of perception, and thus perception of perception? Perhaps the better word to use is 'observation'. As infants or little children our 'model of reality' of the world was vastly different than the one we have developed today. Everything we know comes through our observations whether directly or indirectly. Our believes, our values, even our believe in 'perception' comes through observations. So just how much do we know? and in reality how much can we know? Is our model of reality limited at the threshold by our own human capacity of perception? OR so we think? How do we know 'perception' exists at all and that this whole thing is not just some ONE-NESS, and we, me, you (the individual 'I') the only reality that exists! Is it because of our limited domain of perception that we cannot understand the objective ultra-reality OUT THERE or is it because the nature of perception and awareness itself that makes us believe that we are in fact 'limited' in some way ? In both case, does it matter? We still believe we are 'limited' in some level or some aspect. If we are indeed hardwired to be limited (whether by our intellectual capacity, threshold of perception, etc) then there really is nothing we can do is there? But if our limits are soft, and they are self imposed limits, then knowing this we can break free from such limits at will. Truth is this world seems physical enough. Believing in anything supernatural, or in things that which cannot be seen but are believed to be true resonates with the teachings of the Holy Bible and the adaptive evolutionary responses of man to insure his survival. (An active imaginary and ability to visualize hypothetical scenarios is an ability that suits man very well) (It is because of evolution that children are scared of snakes and of the dark) However, sometimes a dream may also seem 'real enough' until we awaken to the real reality. Whether in a dream or reality it is still always our own introspective perception, a model or representation the inner pseudo-reality that our mind has created for us. Perhaps our consciousness and awareness exists in this inner reality When we are awake, the inner reality is constructed to mimic our external surroundings. When we dream, the inner reality exists on its own, without regard for external stimulus or raw data. all we can consciously experience is the inner reality created for us by the sub reality created in our minds. We are limited by our own limiting factors. Or so we think?? The above situation could be true ONLY if we are actually humans. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly dreaming I am a man." Chuang-tzu Chinese philosopher So where is the starting point, the initial axiom in which ALL things come from? And why has this been neglected for the entire history of mankind? The Bible does not address this problem, neither does M-Theory or TOE. To me these are all useless becuase they don't actually go an inch forward in true progress.

[Howie]

Some deep stuff bochen4! I like it. Welcome by the way to the Forum You tackle a lot of subjects ~ I think their is an "I" created out of perception. Mostly our ego. The building blocks of who we are. We in the physical sense stand alone out of scientific fundamental law. Nature. The mind on the other hand, it's confines are an ever changing process. Our consciousness. Can it exist without attaching or labeling a perception? The perception can be a total illusion. So does it exist. In your mind it does. But only at that specific moment. There was the past and there is the future. The now exists. But tot whom?. Possibly a universal consciousness. Similar to what you describe about ONE. That our mind has created for us. Perhaps our consciousness and awareness exists in this inner reality When we are awake, the inner reality is constructed to mimic our external surroundings. When we dream, the inner reality exists on its own, without regard for external stimulus or raw data. all we can consciously experience is the inner reality created for us by the sub reality created in our minds. We are limited by our own limiting factors. Or so we think?? The above situation could be true ONLY if we are actually humans.[/b] I just can't grasp your concept. Could you further elaborate?

[bochen4]

[quote]Some deep stuff bochen4! I like it. Welcome by the way to the Forum You tackle a lot of subjects ~ I think their is an "I" created out of perception. Mostly our ego. The building blocks of who we are. We in the physical sense stand alone out of scientific fundamental law. Nature. The mind on the other hand, it's confines are an ever changing process. Our consciousness. Can it exist without attaching or labeling a perception? The perception can be a total illusion. So does it exist. In your mind it does. But only at that specific moment. There was the past and there is the future. The now exists. But tot whom?. Possibly a universal consciousness. Similar to what you describe about ONE. That our mind has created for us. Perhaps our consciousness and awareness exists in this inner reality When we are awake, the inner reality is constructed to mimic our external surroundings. When we dream, the inner reality exists on its own, without regard for external stimulus or raw data. all we can consciously experience is the inner reality created for us by the sub reality created in our minds. We are limited by our own limiting factors. Or so we think?? The above situation could be true ONLY if we are actually humans. I just can't grasp your concept. Could you further elaborate? The things that you perceive, and are therefore the things that define your reality. We do not directly interact with the ‘real world’ that is ‘out there’. Rather our mind creates for us a ‘model of reality’, a sub-reality, and our own inner reality that we use to react with the world. This inner reality is an approximation of the true physical objective reality that exists in the universe. We use this approximation because our brains are not powerful enough to directly interact with all the stimulus and external data that our body is capable of receiving in each and every moment. Our brain filters out a lot of information, and also bridges the gap when information is missing. (ie even when you close one eye, your other eye cannot immediately perceive the ‘blind spot’ because the brain extrapolates what it thinks should be there and fills in the information for you) We interact with an inner reality (you can think of it as a proxy), when we dream this inner reality takes over, when we are awake the inner reality is a representation and a model/approximation of the objective physical world out there. So one could say that even when we are awake, we are still in a dream. It just so happens that this waking dream correlates with our physical reality extremely well, to the point where the events of the two realms are so similar and so in sync that the two are often taken as one reality. (kind of like in Minority Report where the two dreams were duped to be so similar they were mistaken for the same thing) However we are always in a dream state, and we can never wake up, this stage of dreaming is simply more ‘real’ because instead of sleep-dream (where the brain is in a self-referential mode in which it draws upon itself) in the waking dream our dream is constantly changed to match the external reality, and thus we have no control of the dream. In essence our brain uses the same software, our interaction is all through dreams. Hope this makes sense to you.

[Howie]

bochen4 Because of the nature of this discussion i am going to move it to extended discussion. I cannot give these subjects due credit unless I have a little more time to read and ponder over what you wrote. At this time I don't. I guess what I am saying is true extended discussion topics are limited. You have a variety of thought that alone could stand as sub topics. In short I hope you stick around the forum I will be looking forward to many more I hope. I will read your response later. Howie

[mongreloctopus]

Everything experienced is, by nature, subjective. Like you said, perceptions create our reality. The longer we live, the more perceptions we cement into our minds, so that seeing a car is not really observing the car as pure visual stimulus, but rather an immediate overlay of what we "know" about cars already, and then the placement of that "object" we have seen into the proper category in our minds (which, in my opinion, limits our ability to learn about what we are experiencing by an astounding degree). Being that our reality is completely at the mercy of our perceptions, a daydream, a regular dream and waking consciousness cannot possibly be any different. They are all realities... Just like being under the influence of a psychedelic substance and experiencing "distortions" or "hallucinations"...I think it is a misnomer, calling them hallucinations, because the only reason we would do so is by concluding that we are still in our regular reality-state, and the things we are witnessing can't possibly take place in that reality. To be able to perceive the world without judgement of any kind, and without classification of any kind--to just be able to absorb sensory information--would yield an enormously better understanding of everything around us.

[Howie]

Originally posted by mongreloctopus Everything experienced is, by nature, subjective. Like you said, perceptions create our reality. The longer we live, the more perceptions we cement into our minds, so that seeing a car is not really observing the car as pure visual stimulus, but rather an immediate overlay of what we "know" about cars already, and then the placement of that "object" we have seen into the proper category in our minds (which, in my opinion, limits our ability to learn about what we are experiencing by an astounding degree). Being that our reality is completely at the mercy of our perceptions, a daydream, a regular dream and waking consciousness cannot possibly be any different. They are all realities... Just like being under the influence of a psychedelic substance and experiencing "distortions" or "hallucinations"...I think it is a misnomer, calling them hallucinations, because the only reason we would do so is by concluding that we are still in our regular reality-state, and the things we are witnessing can't possibly take place in that reality. To be able to perceive the world without judgement of any kind, and without classification of any kind--to just be able to absorb sensory information--would yield an enormously better understanding of everything around us. Good analogy about the car! When I read it this came to mind. (whatever it is I think I see, becomes a tootsie role to me !.) Wow they were right on the money.) Perception even becomes more distorted when a person has a particular element in their life that they believe to be & are looking for. People who believe in aliens see them. You know what I mean? These realities can be different. Because you still have physics to acomadate in the waking state of consciousness. One that can be altered very little. Yes, the overlay as you call it may be opaque because of reconditioning. But upon awareness these rules have boundaries. To be able to perceive the world without judgement of any kind, and without classification of any kind--to just be able to absorb sensory information--would yield an enormously better understanding of everything around us.[/b] Liberation! I suppose few have seen it. I taste would be fine for me!

[Neruo]

Hi dude, welcome! I kind of skipped trough your post, way to long , and it has some nice points. However I like to look at this in this way: In this reality matter/our surrounding is true. If for example we are all dreaming, or I am, that is a different reality. Becouse there is no way of telling we arn't all in a matrix-like machine, it does not matter. There just is not a way of knowing wether everything happens in our head, or our phisical bodies are somewhere else. Untill I have proof, I would gladly accept it, I will stick to this: Everything around us is real. Atoms are. Gravity are. Everything. The only thing that is an illusion is everything we see, smell, touch, hear, think about. Our eyes do not 'see'. Our eyes have nerves in them that react to different wave-lengths of light. Our brain 'create' this world. Everything is Real, but our limited scenes and brain create this 'world' as we see it. If there was a 'thing' the size of cell with eyes, it would see the world Totally different. Everything is dependent of what scenes and on what scale we have, and how our brain processes them. A baby, I think, has a more pure way of seeing. His brain doesn't exactly know how to process everything a baby sees. That takes time. I think a baby sees more 'truth'. If we see a car, we see more then a car. We see an invilible line around that car. We know where the car ends, where it begins. I think our eyes/mind work that way. Nothing what we 'see' is really true. Nothing what we feel. ect. However it's like a photo of a truth. It's a print of the 'true' world. But there isn't away to see the 'true' world. Becouse god doesn't exist. And what we think we see is the mold of the 'real world'. And stuff. In my head it makes scence. I allso wonder or anyone reads what I type Anyhow, We Are in the real world (not the tvshow ) We influnce it, we do not just exist in our own minds. But everything is indirect, limited by our brain and sences. K?

[bochen4]

[quote] Liberation! I suppose few have seen it. I taste would be fine for me! Quote: To be able to perceive the world without judgement of any kind, and without classification of any kind--to just be able to absorb sensory information--would yield an enormously better understanding of everything around us. You got it backwards. If you had your wish then.. Then you wouldn't be able to read. Words would be just letters, and letters would be just images. You also wouldn't be able to discern objects themselves. Spheres would look like 2D circles or ovals. (remember you said "able to perceive the world without judgement of any kind, and without classification of any kind--to just be able to absorb sensory information-") Without prior knowledge and classification, the sphere would just seem like a 2-D round object to you, becuase you would have no concept of a 'behind' which your raw sensory information could not give you. Everything would be new to you, you would forever see something for the first time (and spend your entire life in a state of disorientation, desperately stumbling and searching for some kind of pattern or recognition or able to remember so you can avoid reinventing the wheel over and over again. No human, or animal could have possibly survived if it didn't evolve a mechanism to dicern and differentiate different situations and its own environment. When a lion charges at you, you don't have time to anaylze what in the heck is that four legged furry looking thing trying to do.... The brain is limited in power, and if all concentration/focus and conciousness was spread evenly like you supposed, then you wouldn't be able to do anything. You wouldn't be able to watch tv (like reading, its also a form of hypnosis, where you focus is fine tuned into the experience) take a shower, eat, drink, etc.... Finally, its a fact that the human body is capable of recieving (and does so) FAR more input than the brain can handle. So much of it (the part the brain deems less useful) is filtered and editted out. This happens all the time, even now as you read this word. So in essence, percieving everything all the time is not only not beneficial to your survival (heck you wouldn't even be able to think deep thoughts or discuss abstract topics if all you ever did was absorb EXTERNAL stimulus) its not even possible, not for a second.

[mongreloctopus]

You are clearly limiting yourself to the symbolism we have created over the course of human evolution....Who knows what you could learn if you could completely separate yourself from all symbols? Probably no one knows... You're right that nothing could have survived without changing the world into a system of symbols, but that doesn't mean anything in terms of experiencing reality in a broader way.

[bochen4]

Originally posted by mongreloctopus You are clearly limiting yourself to the symbolism we have created over the course of human evolution....Who knows what you could learn if you could completely separate yourself from all symbols? Probably no one knows... You're right that nothing could have survived without changing the world into a system of symbols, but that doesn't mean anything in terms of experiencing reality in a broader way. Zen like mediation, clearing the mind, would be one way you could achieve this. According to Buddhist teachings, the pure realization of emptiness is free of any form, substance, nature, characteristics, or content, and yet it is not a mere nothingness. It is said to be fully awake and lucid yet totally beyond the limitations of dualistic consciousness. It contains no thought, no cognitive formations, no sense of identity or self-reflection, no perception ,in short it is totally free of any conceptuality. This is said to be the natural state of being, or the actual nature of mind itself when not obscured by conceptual overlays. We are capable of knowing emptiness directly because emptiness and awareness are in fact the very same thing. When a sentient being experiences emptiness it is unmediated by any information process. Emptiness is the experience of the very nature of self-awareness. In other words, because we are truly aware and our awareness is inherently aware of awareness, we are capable of being aware of emptiness which is the actual nature of awareness in its pure form , ie when unclouded by conceptual overlays. "We start, then, with nothing, pure zero. But this is not the nothing of negation. For not means other than, and other is merely a synonym of the ordinal numeral second. As such it implies a first; while the present pure zero is prior to every first. The nothing of negation is the nothing of death, which comes second to, or after, everything. But this pure zero is the nothing of not having been born. There is no individual thing, no compulsion, outward nor inward, no law. It is the germinal nothing, in which the whole universe is involved or foreshadowed. As such, it is absolutely undefined and unlimited possibility -- boundless possibility. There is no compulsion and no law. It is boundless freedom." -- Charles S. Peirce, "Logic of Events" (1898) But now let me ask you: do you believe conciousness and awareness can exists without any external stimulus whatsoever? (even to the point of without the body itself)? To me this brings back the mind-body problem. quilia, just why do you FEEL?

[Howie]

Originally posted by mongreloctopus+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mongreloctopus)</div> You are clearly limiting yourself to the symbolism we have created over the course of human evolution....Who knows what you could learn if you could completely separate yourself from all symbols? Probably no one knows... You're right that nothing could have survived without changing the world into a system of symbols, but that doesn't mean anything in terms of experiencing reality in a broader way.[/b] I think mongreloctopus is looking at liberation in the same light as I do. Your take seems out of context a little. You are making the assumption that ALL traits would be perceived without judgment. I am talking human assumptions a traits. You can perceive something but not have to label it humanistic ally. A perception of true clarity, without the obscure twist that we put on reality. no? To be able to perceive the world without judgement of any kind, and without classification of any kind--to just be able to absorb sensory information--would yield an enormously better understanding of everything around us. <!--QuoteBegin-bochen4 You got it backwards. If you had your wish then.. Then you wouldn't be able to read. Words would be just letters, and letters would be just images. You also wouldn't be able to discern objects themselves. Spheres would look like 2D circles or ovals. (remember you said "able to perceive the world without judgement of any kind, and without classification of any kind--to just be able to absorb sensory information-") Without prior knowledge and classification, the sphere would just seem like a 2-D round object to you, becuase you would have no concept of a 'behind' which your raw sensory information could not give you. Everything would be new to you, you would forever see something for the first time (and spend your entire life in a state of disorientation, desperately stumbling and searching for some kind of pattern or recognition or able to remember so you can avoid reinventing the wheel over and over again.

[Darkmatic]

The name of this topic really says it all , beyond confusion . I think the only people who are posting in it are people who want to believe in something else so much that they manage to convince themselves that all this is actually a reality . Im not saying you are all nonsense talking fools or anything , just that everyone here has a common motivation towards this kind of topic , and anyone can see that . My problem with this topic is that it is extremely hard to follow , it jumps around between many different things and its hard really to pinpoint what exactly its trying to discuss . It needs to focus more instead of using sweeping statements and vauge terms . If someone can atleast quantify what is being discussed here that would be extremely helpful so that other peolpe who may not have the same opinion can reply and give their own thoughts on the topic . There is alot about human perceptions of reality , and that what we percieve isnt what is there in reality . I think that is beside the point , for while we have our limited time on this plane of existance we are limited to our 5 senses . I would place sight as the most important of all senses , for a person who likes to observe reality as it unfolds . When it comes to learning about the world around us sight is our greatest tool . Now i get what some people are saying about how our own senses arent what is truly there . If you look at other animals , they have evolved various different techniques to be able to percieve the world around them , and each different technique is suited perfectly for what is needed in their environment . I find aquatic creatures to have interesting senses , such as dolphins . They use their own voicings , send them out , and depending on what kind of return they get , will paint them a picture of their surroundings ; where the fish are , the terrain , their fellow dolphins . Its basically the same theory as how radar works . Now how the dolphin percieves this information is a mystery to me . Do they "see" this information , even though it has been recieved as auditory , or can they interpret the sound so precisely that they can visualise through the sound what is there . Either way , that sense they use is not a tru representation of what reality is like , but for them , it works . Our eyes alone can only see a limited spectrum of what we call light . The reason that small band of radiation is even called light is because WE see it , however there are other animals that see further to the left and right of the spectrum than we can . Yet we dont classify this as light simply becasue WE cant see it . So in a way , yes we are limiting ourselves by our own perception of reality .

[bochen4]

No more confusion! I am liberated! I finally found the truth. JESUS spoke to me! and he said: Jesus said to me, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6) Jesus is the truth, the only truth, and the only straight and narrow path to everlasting life! Amen!

[Howie]

Originally posted by Darkmatic The name of this topic really says it all , beyond confusion . I think the only people who are posting in it are people who want to believe in something else so much that they manage to convince themselves that all this is actually a reality . Im not saying you are all nonsense talking fools or anything , just that everyone here has a common motivation towards this kind of topic , and anyone can see that . Yes I too agree that there are too many issues to try and address at once. They can all be intertwined to some degree, making hard to differentiate one thing from another. But to to say that I think the only people who are posting in it are people who want to believe in something else so much that they manage to convince themselves that all this is actually a reality is a very presumptuous statement. Because bochen4 and I went back and forth discussing the topics in a time frame of a couple of hours gives reason to why it is like minded conversation. Then you jump in and ignorantly say that this discussion is beyond confusion. Well out of confusion comes answers. These same topics have been addressed many times across this Forum. And your address to the topic is more out of context than any previous thing said. Who is talking of spectrum and the physical nature of what we see. I certainly realize this is a confusing thread , yet I think the main topic at hand is perception and and the nature of which our conscious mind relates to it. Not the actually perceiving things with our eyes, but rather our minds.

[ChristResurrection]

Christ Resurrection Christ Resurrection Put to death, yet Christ Life bounces back stronger! For the light and the truth shall not be silenced. All things through Christ and the Father Praise the Lord

[Darkmatic]

Originally posted by ChristResurrection Christ Resurrection Christ Resurrection * Put to death, yet Christ Life bounces back stronger! For the light and the truth shall not be silenced. All things through Christ and the Father * Praise the Lord Okay , noone can deny that was beyond confusuion , wrong forum dude .