Fixing and Declawing Cats (split from pic thread)

[Chainsaw Kitten]

Declawing is illegal in Switzerland. I agree with that measure.

[icedawg]

Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten Declawing is illegal in Switzerland. I agree with that measure. I don't know enough about it either way to form a generalization.

[Chainsaw Kitten]

Pulling out your own fingernails may be a comparison. Not only is it dangerous for the felines in their self defense, but it's incredibly painful. How can you defend yourself against a predatory animal if your claws are nullified? Iunno. Pretty sick. Just like neutering and spaying.

[Burns]

Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten Pulling out your own fingernails may be a comparison. Not only is it dangerous for the felines in their self defense, but it's incredibly painful. How can you defend yourself against a predatory animal if your claws are nullified? Iunno. Pretty sick. Just like neutering and spaying. Wow, I would've tended to agree with you until you reached the very last sentence - then my opinion changed. But this is probably not the place to get into a debate.

[mongreloctopus]

Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten Pulling out your own fingernails may be a comparison. ...more like ripping off the tips of all your fingers

[OpheliaBlue]

Originally posted by Burns But this is probably not the place to get into a debate. yeah I'll just move it to extended discussion it's a pretty good debate, I've been torn on both the declawing issues as well as the neuter/spaying issues

[Chainsaw Kitten]

Well if you think about it, on the issue of spaying and neutering, one of the basic reasons we exist is to reproduce. Take away one of our main reasons for being and I think you have a bit of a moral dilemma.

[mongreloctopus]

Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten Well if you think about it, on the issue of spaying and neutering, one of the basic reasons we exist is to reproduce. Take away one of our main reasons for being and I think you have a bit of a moral dilemma. there's more to consider than just "reason for existence". reproduction may be a by-product (usually) of existence, but there is no way you can reasonably claim it is "reason" for existence. regardless, humans have created a situation for dogs and cats in which without neutering/spaying, there is an even greater number of kittens/puppies doomed to suffer and/or die prematurely. i don't like the idea of neutering/spaying, because i think i would be pretty bummed put in the same situation, but i think the alternative is much worse. already there are waaaaaaaay too many dogs and cats "living" in shelters either wasting away or waiting to be shipped off to the dog food factory. declawing on the other hand is probably the single most inhumane thing humans do to cats. the claws are integral to the cat's physical existence (i've read that without claws they are unable to properly stretch their spines due to not being able to get a grip on whatever surface they are standing on) and it's psychological existence (imagine being almost totally impotent in a world where everything that moves is a potential enemy/prey/toy).

[Burns]

I could probably write a huge thread about this - but I won't. Firstly, unless you are using an animal for strict breeding or showing purposes, it needs to be spayed or neutered. That is the most important thing in responsible pet ownership. If you love animals, why would you want thousand (or more), unwanted and unloved animals suffering and dying?? Spayed or neutered animals have no sense of "ego" where they feel like less of a man (or woman) because they can't procreate. Actually, they can still go through the motions if they want, they just can't make babies. If you have an unspayed or unneutered pet (that's not being strictly used for breeding or showing purposes), you are an irresponsible idiot who shouldn't have pets to begin with. As far as declawing goes, I personally do not declaw my cats. I trim their nails and train them to use their scratching posts. Although, I understand why some people do it - in my opinion, if it's a matter of declawing a cat so it can have a happy, comfortable life in someone's home rather than being taken to a shelter and possibly euthanized, I'd say declaw the cat. However, I always recommend everyone try alternatives before actually declawing. Some people think that just because they have a cat, it needs to be declawed. You cannot train a cat not to scratch - but you can train it to scratch in appropriate places. We recommend declawing as young as 3lbs, because it's less painful for the cat and they heal faster when they're small. I would say more, but I have to go to work. I'll go into more detail about both of these issues later tonight.

[Chainsaw Kitten]

Well if it's a house cat it is a different story. I live in the country in the middle of France, where there is by no means an overpopulation of cats or dogs. My cat Bandit's not spayed because people WANT kittens around here. Farmers keep tons of cats in their barns to mouse and get rid of other pesks. Many cats die due to cars, and I have experienced many cat's deaths due to this, but this has nothing to do with spaying or neutering cats. We've had kittens a few times, and since we can't handle having a full liter we kill a few at birth. People call this inhumane; but we are doing this so that we don't have to give up kittens to a shelter where they will die anyhow. It is difficult to find homes for kittens here. In this respect, I see your point well. I disagree with it only because where I live it is not necessary, and I judge it from my environment. In cities, where cats and dogs are stray scruffy starving animals, I definetly see the neccessity to spay and neuter. Declawing is a different story. When animals can be outside, like here, they can trim their own claws by climbing and clawing trees in example. For house cats I see it as unneccesary in many ways. Cats can be trained not to scratch humans. Cat's claws can be trimmed. Cats can use scratching posts. I think it's just a lazy excuse that people use. Instead of making an effort for their animals, they simply declaw them.

[Courtney Mae]

I haven't had the chance to read through everyone's post here (pressed for time), so excuse me if I'm just repeating what's already been said: I think that declawing cats is terrible. You can clip cat's claws, you can train cats, and there's probably even more alternatives than that. What's even worse, is when people DO get their cats declawed, and they take out both the front AND back claws, so if the cat does get into a fight with another cat, it has no way of defending itself unless it can get the chance to bite. Someday, I hope to be a veterinarian, and that's probably a procedure that I will not be performing, or, I hope that I'll have that choice. As far as spaying and neutering goes, I don't find that a terrible thing like declawing, but unless you plan on breeding your cat, it's probably neccessary.

[Burns]

Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chainsaw Kitten)</div> Many cats die due to cars, and I have experienced many cat's deaths due to this, but this has nothing to do with spaying or neutering cats.[/b] This has EVERYTHING to do with spaying an neutering - why do you think there are loose cats running around?? Because they're outside reproducing. It's irresponsible to own a cat that goes outside, and not spay or neuter it - pure ignorance. Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chainsaw Kitten)</div> I live in the country in the middle of France, where there is by no means an overpopulation of cats or dogs.[/b] You can't possibly say that there isn't an overpopulation of cats - does every cat that lives outside have an owner? ...yeah, exactly. Feral cats do play a role in pest control, but a single cat will kill an average of 10 mice PER DAY. Do the math. Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten My cat Bandit's not spayed because people WANT kittens around here. Okay, now read what you continue to say below... you completely contradict youself. Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten We've had kittens a few times, and since we can't handle having a full liter we kill a few at birth. It is difficult to find homes for kittens here. Then stop breeding your cats!! WTF?? Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten When animals can be outside, like here, they can trim their own claws by climbing and clawing trees in example. Wrong - they don't TRIM they're own nails - they SHARPEN them. Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten For house cats I see it as unneccesary in many ways. Cats can be trained not to scratch humans. Cat's claws can be trimmed. Cats can use scratching posts. I think it's just a lazy excuse that people use. Instead of making an effort for their animals, they simply declaw them. This I actually agree with. People don't want to put the effort into training their cats to have their nails trimmed and use scratching posts. Scratching is natural cat behavior - you cannot train a cat not to scratch. A cat scratches for 3 reasons: 1. To sharpen their claws 2. To scent mark the area (there are scent glands located on the bottom of the foot) 3. To stretch the muscles in the foot, foreleg, and shoulder I always tell people that if they are going to be letting their cat go outside AT ALL - do not have it declawed (for obvious reasons). <!--QuoteBegin-Courtney@ What's even worse, is when people DO get their cats declawed, and they take out both the front AND back claws, so if the cat does get into a fight with another cat, it has no way of defending itself unless it can get the chance to bite. Absolutely true. There is NEVER a reason to have all 4 feet declawed. That's just cruel and ridiculous. And like you said, many people don't realize that when they declaw a cat, they are more likely to start biting more. <!--QuoteBegin-Courtney Someday, I hope to be a veterinarian, and that's probably a procedure that I will not be performing, or, I hope that I'll have that choice. I agree. A collegue of mine will not do declaws, either. If you need any guidance or info about the veterinary field, please feel free to PM me, Courtney. I would love to give you more info if you'd like.

[Courtney Mae]

Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chainsaw Kitten)</div> We've had kittens a few times, and since we can't handle having a full liter we kill a few at birth. People call this inhumane; but we are doing this so that we don't have to give up kittens to a shelter where they will die anyhow.[/b] So if you grew up and had twins, would you kill one of them off because you apparently can't handle many babies? It's the same concept. I'm sorry, but I find that really heartless. I mean, killing kittens? I can't even believe it. Honestly. They're just babies. I don't know about France, but in American I'm pretty sure that's a form of animal cruelty. For beating an animal, I'm pretty sure you can go to jail, depending on what you're charged for. But you. You're killing them. <!--QuoteBegin-Burns If you need any guidance or info about the veterinary field, please feel free to PM me, Courtney. I would love to give you more info if you'd like. Thanks!

[wasup]

[Sortilegio]

I was just wondering, how do you fix a cat?

[Burns]

Originally posted by Sortilegio I was just wondering, how do you fix a cat? In males, it's commonly called "neutering." The medical term is orchectomy. Two small incisions are made in the scrotum, and each testicle is removed, the cords tied off - and that's it. No sutures are even used. Honestly, it takes longer to anesthetize the cat than it does to actually neuter it. The males wake up and are acting normally right away - they don't miss a thing. Males should be neutered soon after the testicles drop into the scrotum, this way none of the undesirable male traits (such as urine spraying and marking) are ingrained. In females, it's called commonly "spaying." The medical term is ovariohysterectomy. An incision is made on the midline of the abdomen, the uterus and uterine horns are tied off and removed. The body wall and skin layer are sutured back together. Females should be spayed around 5 months old, or before the first heat cycle. If a female has a heat cycle before she is spayed, she is at MUCH higher risk for mammary cancer later in life (I've seen so many mammary cancer cases lately!).

[Gwendolyn]

I think that spaying/neutering is very necessary for cats and dogs. Why would you want so many little animals running around, being killed and such? It kills me to see a stray, and we always end up having to take strays to the Animal Shelter because we can't keep them. And because we live in the country, animals get dumped on us (mostly baby animals) constantly. If people got their animals neutered, I wouldn't have to shed a thousand tears for the cat we had to take into a strange place with other animals, and where they might or might not find a home. Anyway, declawing is probably the most cruel thing you could do to a cat. Cats need their claws, just like we need fingertips and nails of our own. Though scratching may be an annoying occurance, you can always train your cat to refrain from this. It's pretty easy.

[Burns]

Originally posted by Gwendolyn I think that spaying/neutering is very necessary for cats and dogs. Why would you want so many little animals running around, being killed and such? It kills me to see a stray, and we always end up having to take strays to the Animal Shelter because we can't keep them. And because we live in the country, animals get dumped on us (mostly baby animals) constantly. If people got their animals neutered, I wouldn't have to shed a thousand tears for the cat we had to take into a strange place with other animals, and where they might or might not find a home. Finally! Someone who gets it!

[OpheliaBlue]

I think one of the the worst things ever is when I see a kitten that's been run over or hit by a car I know we made cars and roads and shit, but....it's not like we're gonna undo that anytime soon at least we can control the stray population by spaying/neutering (though I agree with mongrel's anti-declawing spiel)

[Gwendolyn]

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue I think one of the the worst things ever is when I see a kitten that's been run over or hit by a car I hate that so much! Of course, I live in the country, so this happens a whole lot, thanks to some inconsiderate asshole who didn't neuter their cats and dumped the kittens so that they could be killed.

[Chainsaw Kitten]

We have kittens. We keep a few. We kill the rest. This procedure has been done for the last I don't know how many years and is a lot more humane than neutering or spaying.They're newborn and don't even feel anything. Out here in the country maybe a few cats don't have owners but you can't have a perfect world. I agree with spaying and neutering but here it just isn't neccessary for ME to do it because everybody else does (except for the farmers who all want cats).

[Burns]

Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten We have kittens. We keep a few. We kill the rest. This procedure has been done for the last I don't know how many years and is a lot more humane than neutering or spaying.They're newborn and don't even feel anything. Wow - maybe you should stop posting about this. I never thought anyone could be so evil. You are delusional to say that killing kittens is more humane than spaying/neutering them. A newborn kitten is incapable of making any vocalizations until it is 2 weeks old - but just because it can't scream in pain doesn't mean it doesn't feel anything!! I'm sorry, but you make me sick.

[Gwendolyn]

Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten We have kittens. We keep a few. We kill the rest. This procedure has been done for the last I don't know how many years and is a lot more humane than neutering or spaying.They're newborn and don't even feel anything. Out here in the country maybe a few cats don't have owners but you can't have a perfect world. I agree with spaying and neutering but here it just isn't neccessary for ME to do it because everybody else does (except for the farmers who all want cats). I don't think killing animals is very humane unless the animal is already in immense pain and nothing else could help it. I am sorry, but life isn't despencable...It isn't something you can just throw away. So what if instead of using birth control, mothers just had so many kids and killed the rest after they were born because they no longer needed children. Same concept. Human babies can feel pain, so what makes you think kittens or any other babies don't? I don't know how you came to that conclusion...whoever told you that was lying.

[Neruo]

Wow, what's wromg with a quick death? I would rather die this instand not knowing what would happen then have my balls cut off, or my nails pulled out. And allso, if I was a cat I might not understand it, but I would mis my good ol' testicles :'( Like stated before: (a quick and painless) death is overrated ^__^

[Burns]

Originally posted by Neruo And allso, if I was a cat I might not understand it, but I would mis my good ol' *testicles :'( Actually, no you wouldn't. Cats have no sense of ego (i.e. male vs. neutered male). I had a guy come into the hospital a few months ago with his unneutered male outdoor cat that (unsurprisingly) had a bite wound abscess. Intact males wander around, picking fights with other cats, and spreading diseases like feline leukemia and FIV. We had to sedate the cat in order to flush the wound, and we begged this guy to let us neuter the cat while he was already sedated. He refused, saying that if the cat didn't have his balls, how would he have sex? That was the most ignorant comment (aside from Chainsaw Kitten's comments above), that I've ever heard. Just because you neuter a cat, doesn't mean he can't go through the motions of intercourse - he just can't impregnate the female. Spayed and neutered cats lead a much longer, healthier lives than intact cats. This guy was pretty much living his sex life through his cat. How sad is that? You can't put you're sexual emotions into a cat, because they aren't the same.