Fixing and Declawing Cats (split from pic thread)

Hmm. I couldn't imagine advocating terminating kittens over sterilization; that sounds like a seriously aberrant system of morals.

The nervous system is most certainly developed at birth; it absolutely must be because they have few other senses that are immediately working (sight, sound). For crying out loud, the neural tube & notochord (becoming the spinal column shortly after) form *very* early in development and are essential in the developing embryo. If they didn't have a functioning nervous system, they would never be able to determine if they were touching the mother, thus could not find a nipple to feed. Nor could they determine if the mother was accidentally sitting on them, and cry out to alert the mother. OF COURSE THEY FEEL PAIN.

Furthermore, for those who are unfamiliar with the proper definition of domestication, it's when we artificially select (versus natural selection) for particular traits, eventually leading to a species that is dependent on us for survival--that cannot survive on its own. That's basically what we've [unintentionally] engineered dogs & cats to become. Thus, Bob Barker totally has the right idea...if you don't want puppies/kittens, and don't intend on looking after them, then "have your pet spayed or neutered today." My God, can you imagine if he said, "have your unwanted kittens killed today?"

*shivers*

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Originally posted by Burns


Actually, no you wouldn't. Cats have no sense of ego (i.e. male vs. neutered male).

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while i agree that neutering/spaying is the right way to go, i think this statement is a little asburd. there's no way you can say how cats/dogs feel about losing their ability to reproduce. we can HOPE they don't notice the difference, but that's about it. one thing i DO know, is that neutering/spaying changes the animal's personality permanently..whether that has to do with hormones, spite or something completely different, i don't really know--but as of yet, there is no way to understand how animals feel about things with any amount of certainty.

Well the guy that leads his sex life though his cat is kind of sick.

Anyhow, really, I doubt the mother would even notice if you just take one of it's 10 kittens and give it a little injection in another room and burry it outside.

I doubt the cat would care to.

I mean, I never heard a baby complain about anything.

:D

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Furthermore, for those who are unfamiliar with the proper definition of domestication, it's when we artificially select (versus natural selection) for particular traits, eventually leading to a species that is dependent on us for survival--that cannot survive on its own[/b]

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this is the best point i have heard in this thread...and the reason i am against owning a pet, even though i love animals.

owning a pet is like owning a slave to me. it doesn't matter if you care for it, and look out for its welfare, it exists primarily as a human possession, which serves to bring enjoyment to its master/owner.
if i owned a human slave and treated it with respect and perhaps even a measure of 'love', would that change the basic fact it is still a slave?

:D i am sure this will be a very unpopular opinion..


there is a breed of dog (which a friend of mine owned) which has been bred so selectively for desired characteristics, including size, that the mother cannot give birth naturally without killing herself and her offspring.
it must have its stomach incised (what's the name for that again?)

sure, he enjoyed the dog's company,and took good care of it, but that doesn't mean the whole process isn't unnatural and selfish IMO.

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still, breeding an animal for companionship is still borderline acceptable to me, except most also require us to provide them with meat in order to survive (dogs and cats).

http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring04/P.../Processing.htm

this meat obviously has to come from somewhere, and it usually is composed of the remains of animal carcasses which are unfit for human consumption. the pet food industry is in many ways a garbage disposal from these byproducts of largescale meat industries which often cause incredible suffering and diress to animals as intelligent as those we value as pets.

hypocritical if you ask me. this even shows in law. it is a crime to kick a dog or cat to death, and yet factory farming is perfectly acceptable...what's the bloody difference?

well, a steak brings us pleasure, and so does a pet. i see a very grey line between processing animals for physical food, and processing animals for psychological food.

in the end its still processing animals for selfish reasons, and stripping them of their natural environment and lifestyle.


one of the few things i see no problem with is taming a wild horse by non-violent means, or a sheep, etc. they are forced from birth to accept human dominance, and it is wholly their 'choice' (as much as that word is applicable to non-human animals.)

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Originally posted by mongreloctopus+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mongreloctopus)</div>

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there's no way you can say how cats/dogs feel about losing their ability to reproduce. [/b]

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If you think they feel heartbroken that they can't make babies, you're wrong. You are attributing human male ego emotions to the strict sexually ingrained nature of animals. Of course humans are animals, too, but humans (apart from some other primates) are the only species who have sex for fun, not purely for reproduction.

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Originally posted by wombing@
owning a pet is like owning a slave to me. it doesn't matter if you care for it, and look out for its welfare, it exists primarily as a human possession, which serves to bring enjoyment to its master/owner.

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A lot of people have pets for the same reason they have kids. And some people (including myself) decide they'd rather have pets than children, so their pets are essentially a part of the family. They are loved, cared for, played with, and thought of in the same way people think of their kids. Often times, the death of pet can be more traumatizing than the death of a loved one (person).

This is not the case with some pet owners - just turn on the TV and watch Animal Cops for proof. But for the most part, people think of a pet as an extension of the family.

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there is a breed of dog (which a friend of mine owned) which has been bred so selectively for desired characteristics, including size, that the mother cannot give birth naturally without killing herself and her offspring. *
*it must have its stomach incised (what's the name for that again?)

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It's a bulldog, and I also totally disagree with this. The puppies' heads are so large that they can't fit through the birth canal of the bitch. I can't believe anyone would breed an animal that couldn't give birth naturally. I'm completely against this and have always been.

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Originally posted by Burns


It's a bulldog, and I also totally disagree with this. The puppies' heads are so large that they can't fit through the birth canal of the bitch. I can't believe anyone would breed an animal that couldn't give birth naturally. I'm completely against this and have always been.

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Oh my god. This is true? That is totally and without a doubt crazy! Shows how much I know sometimes.

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Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
We have kittens. We keep a few. We kill the rest. This procedure has been done for the last I don't know how many years and is a lot more humane than neutering or spaying.They're newborn and don't even feel anything. Out here in the country maybe a few cats don't have owners but you can't have a perfect world. I agree with spaying and neutering but here it just isn't neccessary for ME to do it because everybody else does (except for the farmers who all want cats).

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I honestly can't even believe you. Do you really think that KILLING the kittens, and taking their LIVES is better than allowing them to live with a minor procedure?? You obviously have no idea what you're talking about if you think newborn's can't feel anything.

I just can't even comprehend how cold-hearted that is. It's infanticide. "
"But you can't have a perfect world" is no excuse for what you're doing. You honestly should be ashamed of yourself. It's sick and wrong. The best I can hope for is that some sort of animal protection agency (the French equivalent to the ASPCA or something) takes your cats and pets away from you. I know that's a horrible thing to say, but I don't think you have any idea of what you're doing.

Oooh, I found something for you. Here is a treaty, signed by France and other European countries called the "European Convention for the Protection of Pet Animals" I also looked up the French laws against animal killing and cruelty, but I couldn't read them...they where in French, go figure.

http://www.animallaw.info/treaties/itceceets125.htm

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that you could be turned in for what you're doing, and either have to pay a large fine, or jail time.

well um i get most of my knowledge from The Price is RIght ...and uh bob barker is always saying you've got to spay and neuter your pets soo...im going avec Bob on this one... :poke: i guess uh yah they dont have that show france?

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Originally posted by Burns
It's a bulldog, and I also totally disagree with this. The puppies' heads are so large that they can't fit through the birth canal of the bitch. I can't believe anyone would breed an animal that couldn't give birth naturally. I'm completely against this and have always been.

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Ohhh... ach... now, I'd never heard that before... that's just horrible. I mean, I'm NOT at all a dog person, I hate dogs to be honest, but that... no, that's terrible nonetheless.

None of our cats have been declawed, I've had three in my lifetime. We try to teach them to scratch scratcing posts, etc, but it's pretty much useless. Our current cat, Taz, is a pretty smart bugger. He learnt from a neighbour's cat, Robbie (a siamese) that he could get our attention by DELIBERATELY scratching on the sofa. So, he started scratching on the sofa whenever he wanted to go out, or be fed... he's stopped now, but when he used to do this, you oughtta seen the look on 'is face. Cats are smart... he knew damn well what he was doing pissed us off, and exactly because of that, he continued to rip our sofa to shreds.

ALL our cats have been spayed or neutered. In the case of our second cat, Tabitha, when she was one or two years old. This is unfortunate, as I know you're not meant to spay them so late, but she was a stray we took in, so we didn't exactly have much choice in the matter... (sorry Burns!)

As for neutering... I can understand why people don't like having their cats neutered, especially male owners... it's an empathy thing, mainly. Frankly, I'd prefer to have my cat Taz not neutered, but really, it's just not wise. It's better for him, and me, that he's neutered... so he was...

Personally I don't see what is wrong with killing them, or spraying/neutering them. In some places the consequences of not neutering cats goes beyond more cats that nobody wants, and cats can become a real feral pest. Many wildlife parks in Aus spend thousands of dollars a year on trapping feral cats because large populations of them can do huge damage to many ecosystems and wipe out populations of native animals. In this case it's pretty naive to let cats roam around unsterilised, as it doesn't take much to do a lot of ecological damage. I don't think the act of neutering has any effect on the animal other than hormonal, we neuter close to 4,000 sheep a year and they are still perfectly able to live their lives.

Like I said, I also don't think there is anything wrong with killing kittens, but this doesn't mean I run around with an evil grin on my face abducting people's cats, torturing them and then clubbing them to death. IF it is quick and painless, then I don't have a problem with it, and see no difference between that and killing cattle or sheep to get meat on the dinner-table. I think that you might be a vegetarian, Courtney so obviously you'd have a different opion on that. At home when I was a kid we once found a heap of feral kittens in one of our sheds and we had to break their necks rather than let them go feral, which was a bit sad but quick and painless.

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Originally posted by Roller
Personally I don't see what is wrong with killing them, or spraying/neutering them. In some places the consequences of not neutering cats goes beyond more cats that nobody wants, and cats can become a real feral pest. Many wildlife parks in Aus spend thousands of dollars a year on trapping feral cats because large populations of them can do huge damage to many ecosystems and wipe out populations of native animals. In this case it's pretty naive to let cats roam around unsterilised, as it doesn't take much to do a lot of ecological damage. I don't think the act of neutering has any effect on the animal other than hormonal, we neuter close to 4,000 sheep a year and they are still perfectly able to live their lives.

Like I said, I also don't think there is anything wrong with killing kittens, but this doesn't mean I run around with an evil grin on my face abducting people's cats, torturing them and then clubbing them to death. IF it is quick and painless, then I don't have a problem with it, and see no difference between that and killing cattle or sheep to get meat on the dinner-table. I think that you might be a vegetarian, Courtney so obviously you'd have a different opion on that. At home when I was a kid we once found a heap of feral kittens in one of our sheds and we had to break their necks rather than let them go feral, which was a bit sad but quick and painless.

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Okay, I'm not gonna "fire and brimstone" you, Roller, because quite frankly, I see where you're coming from.

However, already in one country (China), HUMAN babies are killed at birth, due to the overpopulation problems there. Now, you may say that there's a massive difference between killing animals at birth, and killing humans at birth, but me? I don't think the gap is actually that large. If people are willing to kill animals at birth to solve overpopulation and ecological issues, then I don't think that it's that much of a leap to do the same to humans... and, like I said, this is already happening.

Now, while I agree with you that animals such as cats cannot be allowed to roam wild unsterilised, I just think that killing them is NOT the right answer. If sterilisation is available, that is a far more viable alternative: sure, the sterilised cats may kill other animals during their lifetime, but the actual harm they could cause would be exponentially less, due to their inability to breed.

You say that wildlife parks in Oz spend shitloads each year catching and killing feral cats. I believe you. However, why do you think they kill them and not sterilise them? Simple.

It's all about money. They just don't want to shell out to have the operation necessary to sterilise the (I am assuming) huge volume of cats they catch. Most likely, cheap as these operations may be, it's cheaper to just kill them instead.

Killing animals for food I am okay with. I like my steak as much as (actually, a HELL of a lot more than) most people.

But when you're killing animals simply to save money? That, mein freund, is where I draw my line in the sand.

It is simply moraly contradictory to have a pet that you won't neuter, to let them go around having more so you can kill them because you find neutering wrong :wtf2: ; If you wan't your cat but don't wan't the babies then just neuter the damn cat, what is wrong with you, its like saying you love screwing but hate using condoms cause its unatural, so when the baby comes you simply kill it :? .

On the declawing thing, I find it kind of bad, why won't the owners simply cut their cats claws every now and then, are they to lazy :|

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Originally posted by Roller


Like I said, I also don't think there is anything wrong with killing kittens, but this doesn't mean I run around with an evil grin on my face abducting people's cats, torturing them and then clubbing them to death. IF it is quick and painless, then I don't have a problem with it, and see no difference between that and killing cattle or sheep to get meat on the dinner-table. I think that you might be a vegetarian, Courtney so obviously you'd have a different opion on that. At home when I was a kid we once found a heap of feral kittens in one of our sheds and we had to break their necks rather than let them go feral, which was a bit sad but quick and painless.

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As Matt said, I don't have one damn problem with killing an animal for food, but nobody is going to be eating the cats your killing. How is there not a difference?

for exactly the same reason that ex-wild animals now have to be neutered/spayed, is why some of these same animals have to be killed at birth. sure, it's a bummer, but WE made it this way, and we have to live within the confines of a system WE created. once we step in and play god, it doesn't matter if something seems morally wrong, it's now become our duty to make sure things don't get even worse. killing of kittens/puppies is necessary in some places, at some times.

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Originally posted by Gwendolyn+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gwendolyn)</div>

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As Matt said, I don't have one damn problem with killing an animal for food, but nobody is going to be eating the cats your killing. How is there not a difference?[/b]

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Well that's true, but killing feral cats isn't just for the fun of it - they can do irreprable harm to ecosystems, even driving a few native species to the brink of extinction. It's the same with rabbits, foxes, cane toads, pigs, goats, horses carp etc - feral doesn't just mean wild, it means doing irrepreble damage and causing extinctions.

I agree that if it were killing cats just because they weren't wanted or just for soemthing to do, it would be not only cruel but pathetic.

<!--QuoteBegin-The Blue Meanie
Killing animals for food I am okay with. I like my steak as much as (actually, a HELL of a lot more than) most people.

But when you're killing animals simply to save money?

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I'd say killing animals to preserve native environment, ecosystems and species is quite justified. For some species neutering is indeed viable - mainly on small islands where it is much easier to control the population. In isolated outback bushland it is much more practical to cull the population than desex.

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Originally posted by Roller
In isolated outback bushland it is much more practical to cull the population than desex.

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you just wanna shoot stuff :P

I'm kidding, you have a good point there...environment does play a roll in what method is best for controlling stray populations

ok so my family has had many cats and most of them have been fixed and front claws removed and the last cat we had like 15 years ago ... damn i miss that cat .....had a a bad time after the removal because we had him fixed at the same time so it was bad

but we just got a new cat like 2 months ago and just last week was declawed and she was fine the first day didnt even phase her .... and another thing they are indoor cats so they dot need the claws

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Originally posted by Roller
I'd say killing animals to preserve native environment, ecosystems and species is quite justified. For some species neutering is indeed viable - mainly on small islands where it is much easier to control the population. In isolated outback bushland it is much more practical to cull the population than desex.

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Roller, you seem to be missing the entire point of what I was saying.

The reason they catch and kill the cats is because they can't be fucked paying to have them neutered or speyed. The reason for killing the cats isn't to stop that particular cat doing damage tio the ecosystem, but to stop it breeding and having shitloads of other cats that do an exponentially greater amount of harm than that original cat.

In fact, it would actually be BETTER if they fixed the cats and release them, than if they just caughts and killed them. Here's why:

If you catch and kill the cats, then that means that every cat still in the wild can still breed. Therefore, every time any of the cats mate, there's the normal chance that they are going to have babies. IE, a high chance.

BUT if you ctach, fix, and then release cats again back into the wild, that means you've got an increasing number of cats who are "duds": they can fuck, but they can't actually produce offspring. Therefore, when any two cats mate from now on, there's an increasingly greater chance that they won't produce offspring, because one of the two involved in the mating has been fixed. Therefore, there should be fewer and fewer litters of kittens being produced per fertile female, cos an increasing number of the males she mates with are going to be "fixed" and unable to impregnate her.

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Originally posted by Courtney


I honestly can't even believe you. *Do you really think that KILLING the kittens, and taking their LIVES is better than allowing them to live with a minor procedure?? You obviously have no idea what you're talking about if you think newborn's can't feel anything. *

I just can't even comprehend how cold-hearted that is. *It's infanticide. "
"But you can't have a perfect world" is no excuse for what you're doing. *You honestly should be ashamed of yourself. It's sick and wrong. The best I can hope for is that some sort of animal protection agency (the French equivalent to the ASPCA or something) takes your cats and pets away from you. *I know that's a horrible thing to say, but I don't think you have any idea of what you're doing.

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I feed newborn mice to my snakes. They don't feel anything. They're brainless. Same concept with kittens.

We actually just got a new female cat (well she'll be here soon) and she's going to have a litter but then it's neutering time for her. And this time since we found candidates for the kittens it's not a problem at all.

http://www.infinitequest.net/emoticons/faint3.gif

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Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
I feed newborn mice to my snakes. They don't feel anything. They're brainless. Same concept with kittens.

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You know, Chainsaw Kitten, I have a nagging suspicion you're deliberately trying to stir...

I'm just being dead honest.

I can't believe that a simple issue like fixing yor cat can really show such moral differences. Its pretty darn shocking to me actually. I personal do believe in spaying and neutering personal animals. My current cat was a neighborhood stray and a neighborhood whore. The previous owner couldn't take care of her so he tossed her to the curb. She gave birth to two litters out on the street most of which died or were seized but animal control. I finally got frustrated with seeing the lack of concern about her so I got her to trust me and took her in pregnant again. The biggest problem I had was the fact as soon as she gave birth she would get out and pregnant again. Getting people to take them became an impossible task. I tryed hard to keep her inside. Burns would be able to answer this better then me but I was told that when a a cat is in heat that it is actually painful for them not to mate. Like a form of torture. So that leaves a dilemma. Allow them to mate and overpopulate, send they babies to the animal control and have them put to sleep, don't let your cat mate and cause them discomfort, or have them fixed. (Having had a male cat also whom I had fixed has its own set of problems also.) I opt to have them fixed. I personally wouldn't do anything to my cat that I wouldn't have done to myself. The surgery is by far more humane then alot of other alternatives. And in my cat's case she seems almost relieved not having to deal with the drive to have to mate. :D

I agree once you no longer plan on breeding neutering/spaying is neccessary. Cleo got killed by a dog when her kittens were 4 weeks old so I raised them on the bottle. Cute babies. She gave birth only to two, Leo and Bandit. Leo was killed by a car before he reached a year. Bandit is alive and healthy. We would have neutered Cleo but she was killed... and obviously it was no longer needed to prevent her from reproducing. :cry:

Cookie had a litter of 7. We had to kill a few at birth and all the rest found happy homes. Trust me, I was heartbroken and young when this happened but I knew that it had to happen. My dad grew up on a farm where the same procedure has been done for ages. We neutered cookie after because any ammount of kittens would be too many.

And we plan on having a litter now with a new female and then having her neutered.