It's amazing how fucking ignorant some people can be. Seriously - WTF? :shakehead2:Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
I feed newborn mice to my snakes. They don't feel anything. They're brainless. Same concept with kittens.
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It's amazing how fucking ignorant some people can be. Seriously - WTF? :shakehead2:Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
I feed newborn mice to my snakes. They don't feel anything. They're brainless. Same concept with kittens.
It seems unlikely young aminals don't feel. If you kick a baby in the nuts, it will sure get some mental trauma from it...
however, or it matters... not like they know wtf is going on.
Nope, not true.Quote:
Originally posted by ravenqueen
I was told that when a a cat is in heat that it is actually painful for them not to mate. Like a form of torture.
Yes, they sound like they're in pain, but the rolling and yowling is only to attract males. They also release a pheromone that attracts males from miles around. If you've ever heard a cat in heat, I'm not surprised you'd think someone was killing it, but being in season is not painful at all.
Here is a spaying/neutering client education guide I wrote for my hospital:
Spaying and neutering is probably the most important procedure associated with responsible pet care. Every pet, except those being used strictly for breeding or showing purposes, should be spayed or neutered. Also, any pet that has any access to the outdoors should be spayed or neutered to prevent any unwanted litters.
What’s the difference between spaying and neutering?
Females are considered to be “spayed” while males are said to be “neutered.” The end result is the same, though – no sexual reproduction can take place.
What are the advantages of spaying/neutering?
In males, a number of undesirable behavioral changes start to take place around 8-9 months of age, and sometimes sooner than that. He will become territorial and start to “mark” areas by spraying very strong-smelling urine on vertical objects. If allowed outside, he will stray farther and farther away from home, looking for females. This instinct is so strong that he will be oblivious to the busy road between him and a potential mate, and will get into fights with other male cats. He will almost certainly come home with bite wound abscesses (draining, open sores), which will cost you when you have to have the abscess drained and treated by a veterinarian. Also, if he continues to follow this lifestyle, eventually he will probably become infected with feline leukemia (FeLV) or feline immunodeficiency virus (FIV) – the equivalents of human leukemia and HIV. To learn more about these diseases, see The Cat Practice’s Guide To: Feline Leukemia and FIV. If neutered, the tom cat will lose the desire to roam the neighborhood looking for females. This will decrease his chances of being hit by a car or infected with FeLV or FIV. Also, he will be less inclined to mark his territory, and his urine will lose the characteristic strong “tom cat” smell. For those men who think neutering a male cat is inhumane, keep in mind that cats have no concept of sexual identity or ego. Neutering will not change his personality (except in a good way), and he will not suffer any kind of emotional reaction or identity crisis after neutering.
In females, the first heat cycles start at around 5-6 months of age (and sometimes sooner). You will notice her becoming very affectionate and will roll around on the floor (and probably sticking her rear end up in the air as high as she can). She will become more vocal and will probably start howling in the middle of the night. She may also exhibit clear vaginal discharge. Females will go into heat for about a week at a time every two to three weeks until she is mated. This behavior and the pheromones she is releasing will attract males from miles around, which will be prowling around your house, hoping for a chance with your sweet little girl (and she would be only too happy to oblige). Unspayed females also run the risk of being much more likely to develop uterine or mammary cancer later in life. A female should be spayed before her first heat cycle to reduce these risks (and save your sanity). Female cats can be spayed during a heat cycle, but the veterinarian should be aware of this, since there can be an increase in bleeding since the blood vessels are dilated.
When should I spay/neuter my cat?
Neutering can be done as soon as the testicles are fully descended into the scrotum. Usually the veterinarian will want him to reach a certain weight before anesthetizing him.
Spaying should be done at around 5 months of age – before the first heat cycle. Some clinics will spay cats very young, and there has been some controversy on whether it causes incontinence to be spayed as a tiny kitten. We prefer to wait until she is about 5 months old.
What is involved in the spaying/neutering procedure?
All cats should be fasted for 12 hours prior to surgery. This means all food should be withheld, although water can still be offered.
Neutering is done under general anesthesia. The scrotum area is then clipped free of hair and is surgically scrubbed. The testes are removed through two small incisions made in the scrotal sac. The blood vessels are then tied off and the incisions are closed using surgical glue. Usually, no sutures are used unless the cat is very large and the incisions are too big to be closed with surgical glue. It is a very short procedure and the cat is sent home the very same day. Usually, the cat will not act like he had undergone anesthesia at all and will be bouncing around the house like normal the same night.
Spaying is also done under general anesthesia. The abdomen is clipped free of hair and is surgically scrubbed. A small incision is made along the midline where there are fewer blood vessels. A special surgical tool is used to locate the uterus and uterine horns (where the ovaries are located). The blood vessels are tied off and the uterus and uterine horns are completely removed. The inner body wall is sutured with absorbable suture material and then the outside skin layer is closed. There is no need to come back for suture removal since they will absorb on their own, unless your doctor informs you otherwise.
Are their any complications associated with the procedures or recovery?
As with any general anesthesia, there are always risks. However, we take every precaution to minimize these risks. A doctor will perform a full physical examination including listening to the heart for any abnormalities. A preanesthetic blood profile will be run on your cat before any surgical procedure – this will ensure all the organ systems are in good working order before undergoing anesthesia. Also, we use electronic monitors as well as manual monitoring to make sure everything goes smoothly during the procedure.
Especially with spaying (which is more invasive than neutering), postoperative care is important. She will be able to go home the same day but there are some specific precautions to take at home to facilitate an uneventful recovery. Females should be confined to a small comfortable room for the first night where she won’t be able to run around vigorously. Ideally, activity level should be kept to a minimum for 3 – 4 days, if possible. If left to run and jump around the house, the internal sutures will start to rub on the tissue, and a fluid-filled pocket (called a seroma), will form under the incision site. These are not usually painful to the cat and will need to be allowed to go away on its own.
As with any incision, it should be monitored daily. Watch the spay or neuter incisions for any swelling, redness, heat, excessive pain, or discharge during the healing process. If your cat is constantly licking the site, they may introduce bacteria into the incision and cause an infection. Your cat may need to be fitted with a special collar to discourage licking. If you notice any of these signs, call your veterinary hospital for instructions.
Are you saying a newborn animal can think or feel anything? If so, please enlighten me.Quote:
Originally posted by Burns
It's amazing how fucking ignorant some people can be. Seriously - WTF? *:shakehead2:
I'm sorry, but I'm STILL having trouble believing that you're actually serious, CK... are you REALLY sure you're not just stirring?Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
Are you saying a newborn animal can think or feel anything? If so, please enlighten me.
So mice and kittens don't have brains.That's just great :shakehead2: ..I think that scientific evidence will prove you otherwise....They can feel just as you or I could when we were babies. I am sorry, but this statement is very, very ignorant and seemingly uneducated. Come on...It's common sense. There is also a difference between feeding mice to snakes. Though they do have brains, they are being consumed by something, thus fulfilling their role in terms of the food chain. Outright killing a kitten for no other reason than you can't care for it is crazy. If you aren't going to neuter/spay your pets, at least take the ones you cannot care for to an animal shelter. They do have shelters in France, don't they?Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
I feed newborn mice to my snakes. They don't feel anything. They're brainless. Same concept with kittens.
My dad killed them right after they were born. I was 7 or 8. Animals have brains but when they're newborn they're deaf, blind and dumb. They feel only the instinct to feed really.
Heh, when I was a kid a had this friend who had a female cat, that every time she got in heat, she would of just start backing up on anything, sort of like masterbeting, even shoes :rolllaugh: , but she never looked hurt :PQuote:
Originally posted by Burns
Nope, not true. *
Yes, they sound like they're in pain, but the rolling and yowling is only to attract males. They also release a pheromone that attracts males from miles around. If you've ever heard a cat in heat, I'm not surprised you'd think someone was killing it, but being in season is not painful at all.
I've been trying to enlighten you throughout this whole goddamn thread, but you just don't listen. I'm done trying to educate you.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
Are you saying a newborn animal can think or feel anything? If so, please enlighten me.
does thought detract or add to physical pain and suffering? of course not. nerve endings are nerve endings.
if it is a quick, split second death, well, there could be the argument that the combined pain of a litter of unwanted kittens being killed in 3 seconds combined is less than the pain of spaying or neutering (depending on how its done) the would be parents.
but as i've grown up around farms i know how they typically work, especially in regards to animals.
"hit it with a shovel ma....oops, hyuk hyuk....i only broke its back legs....better hit it again...." or, "the dog will take care of them...."
:thanks: Well said.Quote:
Originally posted by wombing
does thought detract or add to physical pain and suffering? of course not. nerve endings are nerve endings.
*just because animals do not think in a verbo-intellectual capacity does not suggest they feel no pain. if anything, it means they feel pain all the more intensely, as there is no thought process to justify it, or hope that it will end. only the pain coursing through their neural pathways.
*and if you were blind and deaf it would likely only intensify the sensation of pain. the key word being SENSATION, not 'thought process"
* :shakehead2:
Maybe it's hopeless or wrong to actively seek to justify this. It's just I was raised to this procedure and it's been done for centuries and centuries by farmers and other folks. I was just exposed to this at a very young age, and I agree with spaying/neutering in most situations of course. I really want to actively learn about this, you misinterpret me.
If you honestly think I am a hopeless case, whatever, I'll drop the issue and pick it up when I feel I can humanely tackle it.
Sorry for my frustration - maybe you genuinely what to learn the truth. Wombing explained it very well - better than I could, actually.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
Maybe it's hopeless or wrong to actively seek to justify this. It's just I was raised to this procedure and it's been done for centuries and centuries by farmers and other folks. I was just exposed to this at a very young age, and I agree with spaying/neutering in most situations of course. I really want to actively learn about this, you misinterpret me. *
If you honestly think I am a hopeless case, whatever, I'll drop the issue and pick it up when I feel I can humanely tackle it.
I'm also sorry you were raised to think that killing innocent animals is okay. Just because people have been doing it for centuries, doesn't make it right. I'm all for listening to and trusting your parents, but they make mistakes, too. You have to question things that you think may not be right - don't just take everything people tell you for granted. For example, my mom doesn't like to eat seafood and thinks it's gross and disgusting, but that didn't stop me from eating all the shrimp I could get my hands on. :wink:
So you're sad that your cat died...but everytime you have a litter of kittens you KILL half of them. Girl, seriously. Don't have anymore kittens. There are enough deaths each day without you contributing to it.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
I agree once you no longer plan on breeding neutering/spaying is neccessary. Cleo got killed by a dog when her kittens were 4 weeks old so I raised them on the bottle. Cute babies. She gave birth only to two, Leo and Bandit. Leo was killed by a car before he reached a year. Bandit is alive and healthy. We would have neutered Cleo but she was killed... and obviously it was no longer needed to prevent her from reproducing. *:cry: *
Cookie had a litter of 7. We had to kill a few at birth and all the rest found happy homes. Trust me, I was heartbroken and young when this happened but I knew that it had to happen. My dad grew up on a farm where the same procedure has been done for ages. We neutered cookie after because any ammount of kittens would be too many. *
And we plan on having a litter now with a new female and then having her neutered.
Oh. My. God. No offense, but will you ever get it? They can feel perfectly fine! They have brains! How do you think they function? And there IS no concept that you have. All of that is absolute B.S. :shakehead2:Quote:
Originally posted by Sortilegio+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sortilegio)</div>Dude. You're my hero. Someone else finally gets it.Quote:
It is simply moraly contradictory to have a pet that you won't neuter, to let them go around having more so you can kill them because you find neutering wrong :wtf2: ; If you wan't your cat but don't wan't the babies then just neuter the damn cat, what is wrong with you, its like saying you love screwing but hate using condoms cause its unatural, so when the baby comes you simply kill it *:? .
On the declawing thing, I find it kind of bad, why won't the owners simply cut their cats claws every now and then, are they to lazy *:|[/b]
<!--QuoteBegin-Chainsaw Kitten
I feed newborn mice to my snakes. They don't feel anything. They're brainless. Same concept with kittens.
.
Again, I've already touched on this. You're quite wrong about being unable to feel. Natural selection would never have favoured that (they'd have little chance of survival). Some perceptual abilites are most certainly functional at birth, including touch.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chainsaw Kitten)</div>I already explained the nervous system is developed prior to birth--it absolutely has to be. You apparently didn't read my post...regardless, they feel. If you don't believe me, take a couple University-level biology courses.Quote:
Are you saying a newborn animal can think or feel anything? If so, please enlighten me.[/b]
<!--QuoteBegin-Chainsaw Kitten
My dad killed them right after they were born. I was 7 or 8. Animals have brains but when they're newborn they're deaf, blind and dumb. They feel only the instinct to feed really.
Oh I agree with you entirely - sterilisation is a much more effective way of controlling a population, not only do you have the wasted reproductive effort, but you have steady competition for resources. For small, concentrated populations it is quite viable, but it becomes totally impractical in the areas that they are doing the most damage in. Feral cats are not just a problem in small wildlife parks close to cities, they're a problem across millions of acres of unpopulated, isolated outback. Yeah, maybe a tagging and sterilisation programme would be possible with millions of dollars of funding, but unfortunately those millions of dollars are non-existent. While it would be nice to refuse to do it on moral grounds, I think that if people are willing to accept the death of animals to give them a nice juicy steak on their plate, then the death of animals to prevent the excintion of species and irreprable damage to the environment shouldn't be much of a problem.Quote:
Originally posted by The Blue Meanie
In fact, it would actually be BETTER if they fixed the cats and release them, than if they just caughts and killed them. Here's why:
If you catch and kill the cats, then that means that every cat still in the wild can still breed. Therefore, every time any of the cats mate, there's the normal chance that they are going to have babies. IE, a high chance.
I completely disagree on many levels, it's just that to be honest I've never questioned that particular thing. Farmers and other people I know (though few) have done the same.Quote:
Originally posted by Burns
Sorry for my frustration - maybe you genuinely what to learn the truth. Wombing explained it very well - better than I could, actually.
I'm also sorry you were raised to think that killing innocent animals is okay. Just because people have been doing it for centuries, doesn't make it right. I'm all for listening to and trusting your parents, but they make mistakes, too. You have to question things that you think may not be right - don't just take everything people tell you for granted. For example, my mom doesn't like to eat seafood and thinks it's gross and disgusting, but that didn't stop me from eating all the shrimp I could get my hands on. *:wink:
For the last time, I DID NOT KILL THEM. IT WAS MY PARENTS. NOT ME. Now other people are being dense.
Okay, I believe you guys and I've heard enough to recognise that I was wrong. If animals, though newborn can feel enough to experience this, then I was wrong. I guess obviously they don't understand pain on the same level as a matured animal or a human (duh).
I generally do want to learn. I argue with these things not to impose my beliefs onto you guys (though some of you seem to want to bash things into my head) but merely to post and be corrected. Also, sometimes people agree with me. :eek:
Well, I don't think anyone agreed with you about killing kittens just because you didn't want to spay your cat. And when you did post about incorrect things, I didn't hesitate to correct you. It only seemed like we were trying to bash things into your head, because even when we tried to explain it, you'd make another assinine post about kittens being brainless! But now that you understand that even baby animals can experience pain, maybe you will try to educate the people you know who are doing it.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chainsaw Kitten)</div>I don't think anywhere in my last post did I say you were the one killing them - but you didn't think there was anything wrong with it, either. I did say that just because you're parents do it, doesn't make it right. And just because it's been done by farmers for centuries doesn't make it right. You have to question things that other people do, if you feel they aren't right - you can't just accept that it's right just because other people do it. Get it?Quote:
For the last time, I DID NOT KILL THEM. IT WAS MY PARENTS. NOT ME. Now other people are being dense.[/b]
<!--QuoteBegin-Chainsaw Kitten
I argue with these things not to impose my beliefs onto you guys (though some of you seem to want to bash things into my head) but merely to post and be corrected. Also, sometimes people agree with me.
No. I do neuter and spay my cats (when we don't have kittens) because I know it's neccessary. I just think the concept of removing reproductive organs horrible.
Burns, I don't mean you. I meant.. various other people who have been saying that I killed the kittens. I did not want to do so.
For fucks sake, it happened once (when my dad killed the kittens). Either read things through and comment or don't comment at all.Quote:
Originally posted by Courtney
So you're sad that your cat died...but everytime you have a litter of kittens you KILL half of them. *Girl, seriously. Don't have anymore kittens. *There are enough deaths each day without you contributing to it.
You're a kid :roll: , be serious if you want to learn.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
I generally do want to learn. I argue with these things not to impose my beliefs onto you guys (though some of you seem to want to bash things into my head) but merely to post and be corrected. Also, sometimes people agree with me. *:eek:
Be more specific. Insults don't help.
Instead of making my cats impotent so they can't get pregant or pregnate by cutting their genitals off, I just cut off 3 of their legs. It's cheaper, and they are sure not to make babies.
Moral of the story: Animal cruelty is a bitch, but at least it's not super-aids.