Thread: Language

"His chin resting on the cold glass surface of the table, Dan hunched over as he stared through the forest of chesspieces in front of him at the clasped hands of his opponent."

I guarantee you that, in the history of the human race, the above sentence has never before been uttered. What I'm trying to say is that, shaggy, I disagree with you quite fundamentally on this point.

Language is MORE than just a collection of words with pre-set meanings. This is proven by the fact that, to date, mankind has been unable to create a computer that can interpret and speak human language with the same accuracy and complexity as can a human.

Language is all about syntax. The piecing together of words, sentances... words have MORE meaning than merely what is in the dictionary. A large amount of meaning comes from the way in which words are used by the speaker/writer. Words carry different connotations to different people. So while, yes, the words and their approximate meanings may be "prefabricated", when using language, each individual makes those words his or her own.

Do not underestimate the complexity, the uniqueness, the potential variety of language. The combinations of sentences, words, and meaning, are as infinite as pretty much anything I can think of.

I dont deny that, but what im saying is, with all these people in this world. Just about everything has been thought of or said before, it may have a completely different meaning to you than it does me, but what im saying is, the words themselves have all been used before in some kind of relation to the other words in the sentence, therefore somebody was thinking about something very similar to what your saying, im not saying ever single possible sentence has been said before, im saying that every word has been, and in turn, if the word has been used, and it has more than one meaning, than that meaning has already been thought of before you thought of it, so in all actuality you are thinking that you are creating, which you are partially, but your not really creating everything that you are saying. You create your own perspective, what you see the world and view it as is your own. Every word said to another person will create a different response true, but that meaning has already been there, you are just changing other aspects of the sentence. I hope that makes it a little more clear, its hard to explain what i really mean without going into a detailed multiple page explanation that nobodyt wants to read. thanks for your opinion though Blue, i see your rational, and i agree with most of what you have to say.

Edit: ill use the word ran

I ran around the block
I ran to the store
I ran over a shoe
I ran the biggest corporation

All different meanings with the same word, true it is unique how that is possible. 1= to run. 2= to quickly go somewhere 3= to crush 4= to own/operate

All of these meanings are prefabricated, and although i could say infinite possiblities of sentences just using the verb ran, what im saying is, the message that the sentence is conveying has already been used more than once, more than a hundred times, more than a thousand times even greater.

Yeah, but by the same token, you can apply the exact same resoning not just to language, but to the world at large.

"Sure, everything in the world is unique, but basically, everything there is made up of previous stuff, and everything there is roughly similar and not really all that different to other similar stuff. So really, nothing is all that special".

It's all a matter of perspective. Is a glass half empty or half full? Is everything radically unique and individual, or is everything mostly the same?

I strive to be an optimist, but why fool myself? Honestly the world hasnt changed much in the past few hundred years. Although some important things happened and were documented... Its just all so monotonous.

Originally posted by Shaggy_Da_Clown
I strive to be an optimist, but why fool myself? Honestly the world hasnt changed much in the past few hundred years. Although some important things happened and were documented... Its just all so monotonous.

As a student of history, this.... this REALLY makes my eyes go wide. What the hell? Things most certainly HAVE changed!

Let's take 500 years as "a few hundred years". Okay. We've got, urbanisation, modernisation, the emancipation of women, the invention of democracy, a huge decrease in the central plart played by religion in political and social life, capitalism, etc. I'm just scratching the surface Seriously. The world has changed a WHOLE lot over the past hundred years. If you don't believe that, I suggest you go and read some history books. Life back then was a shitload different than it is now.

the world has changed more in the past 100 years than it did in the previous 1000 years. i agree with Blue. even if all the words have been used before, you can still come up with original ideas. even original ideas are based on things that have been already done, but it's impossible not to. was it isaac newton who said something about standing on the shoulders of giants? we all just build on the work of those who came before us, but that does not mean that we don't do original work.

Originally posted by Shaggy_Da_Clown+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shaggy_Da_Clown)</div>

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What can we do as the human species to be original and different??? We have no other way of communication on the norm. Sure we could use sign language, but isnt that just another mans created way of speaking? Create your own language? Although it is your own, the meaning of it has been thought of and conversed about before. Are we doomed to a life on repeat? [/b]

You are original and different. Infact, everyone is unique. That's what makes us so interesting. Language is just the basics. You could more than likely get by life without using a single word and living by gestures.

Language makes communication almost irreplaceable. Keyword there: ALMOST.

Everything on this planet communicates in some way, shape or form that has been started from the beginning of time. The difference with language is that it's been enhanced. The Webster Dictionary is always up for new words. Be unique in that sense and make something that is comprehensible and usable by all.

<!--QuoteBegin-Shaggy_Da_Clown
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Mate feed kill repeat. The primal instincts of a human. When you are hungry, you ARE hungry, you dont need to think about it, you simply are that way. Emotions, they are completely language generated non primal things, can we as a race simply just drop the unnecessary bullshit? Or are we doomed to this inevitable life of repeating what everybody else has done. I know i fear it, that is why i change my own reality on a daily basis, but this doesnt really help untill everybody does this, and when is that going to happen? Anyways enough rambling...

What bullshit is it that you're referring to?

As it stands, the world is populated by people who want to be understood. I would like to see people forge towards one goal, peace. In order to achieve peace, we all have to be on one same page and communicating (a.k.a. Language).

just as each existence is unique, so each sentence is unique. though the outward form may seem the same, the subtleties remain.

one can read the same sentence a thousand times, and each time interpet it slightly differently...after all, we are all continually changing, whether we realize it or not.

i do agree with you that language is limiting though. it dictates far too much how we perceive and interpet life.

you wondered what different forms of language/communication are possible...well, which form of language do you think marilyn prefers? music....which brings up an excellent analogy:

musical notes are not much different than letters of the alphabet....musical chords are not much different than words..yet think of the vast array of music that is created, as well as various works of literature.

sure, one can play the same old boring major chords which make up almost every pop song created in the past 20 years....or they can create a previously unimaginable new style.

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a key point in my surmounting the commonality of language was to learn how to perceive without verbal thought...meditation essentially. i real-ized that poetry is more than words on a page, it is a dynamic, living experience, far outside of the bounds of language.

to live as poetry is far superior to writing poetry...

one is capable of experiencing virtually unbounded "things" (hehe, there is that limitation)...the only problem is one cannot share them with others.

so be it

search until you find that part of yourself which is truly unique...which has something new to manifest into this world...it is within each one of us.

it is what makes life worth living.

Originally posted by wombing
i do agree with you that language is limiting though. it dictates far too much how we perceive and interpet life.

Finally somebody got that point. And all of you guys, i see your point of view on things, im talking about "language" in the past few hundred years by the way, i know life itself has changed a lot, as well as the human species interaction with everyday life. But just about the same terminoligy is used, except for new words created for things that have been invented since then, or discovered since then. IE: Cd Player. Pretty much our language is still limited and primitive, it should be possible for one individual to simply think who he/she wants to say somthing to, and they would just know. The human potential is limitless, yet we place these boundaries on ourselves.

What i mean by "drop the bullshit" is simply that, humans could do anything, yet we put boundaries on ourselves, and tell ourselves we cant do something. IE: Thats impossible! No Way! ... Yes way, just about anything is possible with the human mind, not too many people realize this though.

Often it is more than just language.

When a Civilization rises up and flourishes, the literature goes through development. It must be great for Authors to be able to be the 'first' to strike upon certain themes. The same for Music and the Graphic Arts.

But in an old Civilization, then everything really has been done. What can anybody do?

Look at our own Literary Civilization. Authors have grown so frustrated that they invented Sci Fi -- total Bullshit where they just make up new worlds and manners so that they can have something original only by creating things that are entirely meaningless.

Indeed, if Civilization should ever fall, then somebody should be appointed who will discretely burn the Libraries. No, not everything. but certainly enough so that the Intellectual and the artists of the Next Civilization will have the fun of Re-creating what had gone before without having to feel hopelessly derivative.