Your View Om Communism

I have the impression that some americans, especially the more pro-bush/republican ones still really deeply have a hate against communism. I understand that during the cold war alot of anti-communist-propaganda was going on in america, but I would say that people by now know what communism is about and that -in theory- it is a good thing.

I was just wonder how You people think about communism.

Personally I think it is a great idea, but allmost impossible to actually make it work... as proven alot before. However maybe in the future, when there is no more hunger and war, I think communism, (about the same as) equality among all people, will exist. (that, or the facist elite take total control, lol).

:cookiemonster:

I agree, comunism is the best. :bravo: Though it really can't work. People are and always will be greedy. Why care about the person on the street when you are rich, or doing ok with a good-ish job. When people see the bigger picture, they will see that comunism is the answer (never gona happen though).

i am an american, but my attitude toward communism has nothing to do with the Cold War or Russia.

I will say i like the IDEA of communism, because it is ideally a utopian society. The only problem is IT WILL NEVER WORK. Some greedy asshole will take power and opress the people. Plain and simple. And the fact that people, for the most part, want to work harder than everybody else to put themselves ahead of others is a factor. It is just a basic human need that communism cannot fill, making it impossible.

I will say the Capitalism is THE BEST WAY to run a society.
......................what do you think made America kick so much ass?

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Originally Posted by Hominus

I will say the Capitalism is THE BEST WAY to run a society.
......................what do you think made America kick so much ass?
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That is sadly true. As soon as people start thinking about others and not only about themselves, it will all change. Capitalism is the best for the Capitalist, ignorant people will allways follow them, be poor and work for the rich people, untill they find out that they have the power and are just being abused by rich people with the brainwashing power of misery. I myself wouldn't be very happy if I was rich, not because people say that money doesn't bring happyness, but because I would know that I have the money that could buy "houses" for a thousand people (for example). :blue:

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Originally Posted by Bonsay

I agree, comunism is the best. :bravo: Though it really can't work. People are and always will be greedy. Why care about the person on the street when you are rich, or doing ok with a good-ish job. When people see the bigger picture, they will see that comunism is the answer (never gona happen though).
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Yes I agree. People will allways be greedy. It is in the human nature. But maybe one day when we have food replications, and changed our moral in a way that possesion doesn't make people happy. Maybe then we can have communism... :)

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Originally Posted by Bonsay

i am an american, but my attitude toward communism has nothing to do with the Cold War or Russia.

I will say i like the IDEA of communism, because it is ideally a utopian society. The only problem is IT WILL NEVER WORK. Some greedy asshole will take power and opress the people. Plain and simple. And the fact that people, for the most part, want to work harder than everybody else to put themselves ahead of others is a factor. It is just a basic human need that communism cannot fill, making it impossible.

I will say the Capitalism is THE BEST WAY to run a society.
......................what do you think made America kick so much ass?
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Capitalism indeed is the best way to run a society... if you are leading it. In a totally capitalistic state a simple worker with no schooling can never get amoung the elite of america.

You think in the next 100 years there will be a black person, that used to live in the gutter, will be in office? That isn't going to happen. The amican dream is a lie. Capitalism works, but it sucks if you are low in the ecomical-chain. It sucks hard. And you can't do anything about it.

Allso capitalism doesn't really care about education. It wants the elite group that has the power to keep that power and it wants to have the workers schooled just enough so they can do their jobs.

Pure Capitalism doesn't care about nature, pure capitalsm doesn't care about people that contribute nothing to the economy (african countries), pure capitalism puts money above everything.

I can quite honestly say I would rather live in total anarchy then total capitalism. But I would gladly live in pure communism.

Yet, (luckly for 2 out of 3), those things arn't going to happen where I live in the next 100 years...

I like communism through small government, as in you share and help people. I hate communism through large government where they force you to do stuff against your will.

The biggest flaw I see in communism is that they always have large government that goes along with it to force you into doing stuff. So its really not communism thats the problem but the totaliaterain government that goes along with it.

Neuro, you said one day we can find a way to take away people's desire for possesions
What the hell are you thinking? To do that would make us inhuman.

Whats so bad about capitalism? The basic principal is the best prevail. That is all. It fulfills the basic need for humans to compete with eachother to come out ahead. Its kind of like a Bell-curve.

Maybe the black man wont be in an office (by the way, if hes living on the streets thats his own fault, not capitalism's). You have to understand that dreams have to be in perspective. Maybe he could run a fast food joint one day, which isnt a bad life at all. If "capitalism" sucks so bad then why did America come out ahead. It might not be the greatest system for EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL, but which society is. Communism? Please. What we do obviously works and makes our country great.

The good thing about Capitalism is it endures. It has ups and downs (the depressions), but it always jumps back. Everything else, like communism and socialism, collapse after a while. Look at the Soviet Union.

If you fools really want every single aspect of your daily life governed by a communist government, then go ahead. I enjoy my freedom to have any job i want, say what i want, and protest what i want. If you want to be subject to restrain then be my guest.

Perhaps your yearning for communism stems from you inability to run your own lives. For someone like you, communism is heaven. They take care of everything for you so you dont have to.

hmm.........Lazyness=communism=failure

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Originally Posted by Hominus

If you fools really want every single aspect of your daily life governed by a communist government, then go ahead. I enjoy my freedom to have any job i want, say what i want, and protest what i want. If you want to be subject to restrain then be my guest.
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Capitalist propaganda... Dictators were never a part of the idea of communism. A dictatorship was only needed because people didn't want to accept communism yet. Marx actually predicted the true form of communism only 800 years in the future. :content:
The true form of communism is when everybody would work to improve themselves and the whole of society, so no more money, jelaousy, poverty, ... wars? Now would that not be more efficient than capitalism?

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Originally Posted by Hominus

hmm.........Lazyness=communism=failure[/b]

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Lazyness... why?

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Originally Posted by Hominus

Maybe the black man wont be in an office (by the way, if hes living on the streets thats his own fault, not capitalism's).[/b]

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You have to pay for school in the USA, right? Well if someone is born in a poor familly and is unable to pay for his education, how is that his fault?

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Originally Posted by Hominus

Neuro, you said one day we can find a way to take away people's desire for possesions
What the hell are you thinking? To do that would make us inhuman.[/b]

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Ah that you have wrong. Wacky buddisht monks are still human. You don't get the concept of greed. Greed isn't the human think, it is wanting to become better that causes greed. We all allways want to be better (then someone else). That is the human trait. Greed and such are results of that.

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Originally Posted by Hominus

Whats so bad about capitalism? The basic principal is the best prevail. That is all. It fulfills the basic need for humans to compete with eachother to come out ahead. Its kind of like a Bell-curve.[/b]

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It furfills, yes. For a few. And it allso leaves humans robbed of the power to even furfill that basic need. As I said a badly schooled back person with bad friends can never get rich in america.

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Originally Posted by Hominus

Maybe the black man wont be in an office (by the way, if hes living on the streets thats his own fault, not capitalism's). You have to understand that dreams have to be in perspective. Maybe he could run a fast food joint one day, which isnt a bad life at all. If "capitalism" sucks so bad then why did America come out ahead. It might not be the greatest system for EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL, but which society is. Communism? Please. What we do obviously works and makes our country great. [/b]

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Still, it makes your country great. Personally I doubt you are in the top 5% that is really rich. In 95% of the cases you are better off living in a less-capitalistic (still western) country.

And will a black guy that can hardly read becouse his government doesn't spend enough money on schooling ever become a manager? And if he grew up in a rich family he wouldn't even have to do an effort to get Anywhere. Anywhere high.

In perspective yes, but the lowest people in your capitalistic ladder have hardly anywhere to go. No one is happy to work at Mcdonalds, they all want to be something better. They all try sort or less, they all fail. Why? I don't think they are genetically weaker. The system made them weak.

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Originally Posted by Hominus

The good thing about Capitalism is it endures. It has ups and downs (the depressions), but it always jumps back. Everything else, like communism and socialism, collapse after a while. Look at the Soviet Union.[/b]

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Yes. So? A brick on the right side can't fall over. But a beautifull vase can. Is a brick better?

And alot of Way less capitalistic counties allso are doing great. America just had the advantage of a new stolen county and lots of space and recources. That advantage is running out.

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Originally Posted by Hominus

If you fools really want every single aspect of your daily life governed by a communist government, then go ahead. I enjoy my freedom to have any job i want, say what i want, and protest what i want. If you want to be subject to restrain then be my guest. [/b]

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Russia wasn't communist at all in the later stages. Communism has Nothing to do with giving up freedoms. I don't see why you think that. You can still do whatever job you like. You just get paid as much as someone else, perhaps he has a more easy job in your eyes, but if he is not as skilled he works just as hard in theory, and earns as much money. If people truely want to help their country they will not choose the easy job and do the job they are best at. Job choice-wise it is not that different from capitalism. Only the fair-pay aspect is different.

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Originally Posted by Hominus

Perhaps your yearning for communism stems from you inability to run your own lives. For someone like you, communism is heaven. They take care of everything for you so you dont have to. [/b]

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Haha. Once again, it isn't russia. Clearly you are getting personal youself, kind of weak. (I kind of went for the personal attack myself, but really, will you be president?)

Anyhow. I would work harder in a communist state then in a capitalist state. If I truely believe my job aids the nation and it's people that all equally work hard, I will be way more motivated to work then with the attitude: I will let my boss think I am doing my job, while I actually am looking at porno, I don't care aslong as I get paid.

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Originally Posted by Hominus

hmm.........Lazyness=communism=failure
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Hmmmm american indoctrination = fail.

Hey really man, are you rich? You have any idea what a high-up CEO earns? maybe even 50 times more then you do. Does he work That much harder? No. You are just being screwed by your own system... but hey, if you like that. I guess that america really done well: They make the public love their own lie that is so deep in their anus they can't move.

I voted: I am not an American. I do not like communism.

It's never worked before, so whats to say it ever will. Its the human condition, I don't think we can cope with communism.

You don't pay for school in the US. Well except collage which will bleed you dry. Basic schooling is free though.

I'm not American (Canadian hehe) and I think communism is a good idea, but in the end it sucks because people are stupid.

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Originally Posted by Alric

You don't pay for school in the US. Well except collage which will bleed you dry. Basic schooling is free though.
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What I have seen and heard, basic schooling kind of sucks balls. In a bad neighborhood with overcrowded schools, you don't learn much.

Actually thats the problem. We don't pay for the schools, it comes from taxes. So a poor community is going to have a poor school. Its not really that noticeable untill you get into really bad areas. Then yea, it can get pretty bad.

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Originally Posted by Alric

Actually thats the problem. We don't pay for the schools, it comes from taxes. So a poor community is going to have a poor school. Its not really that noticeable untill you get into really bad areas. Then yea, it can get pretty bad.
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Until said school gets so bad it Becomes title 1.

Communism is robbery. Communism is oppression. Communist governments make their people their bitches. Communism is an absurd idea. Communism is a historical failure. Screw communism.

Neruo, I am out of money right now because I have seen no reason to work hard. If you have any money, I want half of it because I am entitled to my fair share. No, I don't feel like working hard instead. Why should I? What's in it for me?

Seriously, when will you send me my check?

By the way, I am flattered by your obsession with my country.

Practically nobody is going to work hard if there is no strong incentive to do so. Greed is a deeply rooted part of human nature, and it is never going to go away. It is too much of an evolutionary advantage to ever die out. It is what gets things done. In communism, there is nothing, except fear if anything, that will make things happen. The United States is the most successful country in the world because of our capitalism. Nobody's communism or any other type of government has outdones us in business. Even our homeless people are fat. I'm totally serious. I don't say that with arrogance. I very much want the whole world to have our type of government. It would be awesome. If half of Europe starts kicking our asses in business, it will make me cry with happiness. I want the whole world to be capitalist. And the United States would be much better off if we were even more capitalistic. We need to extend it much more to the tax code and much more to the school system. Our public school system sucks while our private school system is incredible. That is no coincidence. The public schools lack the element of competition, so they suck. The same is true about communism. There is a reason the restaurants in the Soviet Union usually didn't have most of the items on the menues. Go figure.

word

I like how people keep talking about how communism would never work, when it has worked, several times in earlier societies we saw communism working, they were communists, they lived up to the early marxist ideals quite well. Sure, transition is a bitch and it's impossible to achieve in the sense that communists could not start revolutions right now and reach some sort of utopia, part of the irony is communism cannot be forced or corruption ensues, in this current swociety the only way to start successful communist societies would be for people to break away and form their own societies.

Yeah, everyone I've talked to has an opinion on communism, and 90% of them regurgiated the old, "it looks nice but it can't work" thing. Bullshit.

And another thing... since when the fuck did capitalism work? Last I checked the causes behind most of the massacres and wars in our society today are a cause of corporate corruption, which we can thank to capitalism. So what if communism doesn't work, I'd rather live in a society where it wasn't working than one where capitalism wasn't working.

Our problem is we don't have real capitalism. Theres to much market manipulation and government interference.

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Originally Posted by Universal

Communism is robbery. Communism is oppression. Communist governments make their people their bitches. Communism is an absurd idea. Communism is a historical failure. Screw communism.

Neruo, I am out of money right now because I have seen no reason to work hard. If you have any money, I want half of it because I am entitled to my fair share. No, I don't feel like working hard instead. Why should I? What's in it for me?

Seriously, when will you send me my check?

By the way, I am flattered by your obsession with my country.

Practically nobody is going to work hard if there is no strong incentive to do so. Greed is a deeply rooted part of human nature, and it is never going to go away. It is too much of an evolutionary advantage to ever die out. It is what gets things done. In communism, there is nothing, except fear if anything, that will make things happen. The United States is the most successful country in the world because of our capitalism. Nobody's communism or any other type of government has outdones us in business. Even our homeless people are fat. I'm totally serious. I don't say that with arrogance. I very much want the whole world to have our type of government. It would be awesome. If half of Europe starts kicking our asses in business, it will make me cry with happiness. I want the whole world to be capitalist. And the United States would be much better off if we were even more capitalistic. We need to extend it much more to the tax code and much more to the school system. Our public school system sucks while our private school system is incredible. That is no coincidence. The public schools lack the element of competition, so they suck. The same is true about communism. There is a reason the restaurants in the Soviet Union usually didn't have most of the items on the menues. Go figure.
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You still don't get communism. Just becouse it has sucked so much when actually tried, and maybe it will go on sucking a lot more, that doens't make the basic idea a bunch of crap. The idea is great. I don't see how you can totally dismiss it. I mean untill people will shift their greedyness from self-enrichment to personal-bettering, then it has a shot.

untill then, somewhat of a communist/socialist factor is really quite good for a country. There is no way of telling or it will ever work, communism. But you can see that somewhat more socialistic (with about the same idea's as communism) countries do thrive. And I can quite honestly say am would rather be poor and lazy there then in america.

Really, what have you accomplished? A powerfull nation, yes. But most of it's inhabbitants are living a lie. How many people in america work 14 hours a day? More then in any other country. The truth is that american's work the hardest off all, but still lead a crappy life.

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Anyhow, who is the most hated nation in the world?

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One more thing: Would you even accept communism if it was possible? If everyone really did make it work the utopical way, no dictators, no war, same effort = same pay. I don't see a reason not to want a system without greed, if it is possible (sadly not at the moment). If you don't want that, you are just a little brainwashed american, with probably some crappy education. Even the best public high schools have a lower level as freaking polish high schools if you ask me. Imagen... the polish.

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Maybe you don't fit into any system. A true capitalist would say you don't fit in, becouse you don't even try to compete, to work. Every political system can work, the problem is people like you.

neuro, you said equal work and equal pay.

In communism, there is NO reason to work just as hard as the next guy, and you still get the same amount of money.

Communism takes away the human spirit to work hard. The only way to keep the people in order is by fear.

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Originally Posted by Hominus

neuro, you said equal work and equal pay.

In communism, there is NO reason to work just as hard as the next guy, and you still get the same amount of money.

Communism takes away the human spirit to work hard. The only way to keep the people in order is by fear.
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You want to know why you think that? Because that is a totaly capitalistic view on everything. I said it before and I'll say it again, in real communism everyone wouldn't have to be afraid to work, they wouldn't need reasons to work, because they would know that they are a part of their "country", they are doing their share of the work. To keep things going. And again, If you do something you like doing you would never think of not doing it in the first place.
Only a capitalist could think that way, lazy style. You know why, because you don't like your work. As Neruo said :"But most of it's inhabbitants are living a lie. How many people in america work 14 hours a day? More then in any other country. The truth is that american's work the hardest off all, but still lead a crappy life."

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Originally Posted by Hominus

neuro, you said equal work and equal pay.

In communism, there is NO reason to work just as hard as the next guy, and you still get the same amount of money.

Communism takes away the human spirit to work hard. The only way to keep the people in order is by fear.
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Thanks Bonsay, you allready did my work of replying :content:

But yes: In a true (and yes, unlikely) communist nation a person is Willing to work hard, so support his country and his fellow countrymen and woman. Your capitalistic view on work isn't about doing you job right, it is about making it seem you are doing you job right so you get paid, and maybe even promoted.

Allso your 'The only way to keep the people in order is by fear.' refers to russia I think. Russia wasn't a communist state when stalin was a dictator. They did name themselves communist, but I don't think marx would agree.

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Originally Posted by Neruo

You still don't get communism. Just becouse it has sucked so much when actually tried, and maybe it will go on sucking a lot more, that doens't make the basic idea a bunch of crap. The idea is great. I don't see how you can totally dismiss it. I mean untill people will shift their greedyness from self-enrichment to personal-bettering, then it has a shot.

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So when can you send me my check?

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Originally Posted by Neruo

Anyhow, who is the most hated nation in the world?

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The one that people are the most jealous of. This is illustrated by the fact that NOBODY on this site who supposedly hates our war policy can passionately bitch about anybody else's war policy. You have noticed that, haven't you? After several requests, you and others showed nothing in that thread except obsession with the United States and very brief mentionings of those who seek to make Americans and Israelis literally extinct. People are going to be the most jealous of the most successful country, which is going to be the country with the best capitalism. Guess who that is. If you have a problem with us now, you just wait until we lower our tax code and use a financial incentive voucher system with our public schools. When that happens, your obsession with us is going to be ten fold. :wink:

Despite the provocative comments I just made toward Neruo so that he will take me up on my challenge to go off about a country other than the United States, I want the whole world to be capitalist. I don't think the United States kicks so much ass in business because we are genetically superior. The vast majority of us are the close descendants of the same people Neruo and others here are descendants of. The vast majority of us have great great grandparents who were born in Europe, so such an attitude would be really ridiculous. I just think we have the best economic system, and I invite the whole world to be capitalistic on the same, or better yet, even greater level than we are. I am pro-world, not just pro-America. I want Europe and other places to start kicking major ass economically, even if they kick ours. That CAN happen.

I will never be jealous of America. i don't know why you keep saying that. Why be jealous of one of the most capitalist countries ever. We only talk about the US because you keep bringing it up.

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So when can you send me my check?[/b]

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In case you haven't noticed, communism doesn't work with people like you. And this isn't communism sadly, that's why sending you a check would be a kind, selfless, nice and helpfull act, also known as stupid in capitalist way of thinking.

you would never admitt jealosy, Bonsay

Capitalism kicks ass. America proved it.

As universal said, just wait until our taxes get cut to shit (no income taxes, maybe). European and Asian economies will go :thumbdown:

Communism would never run with ANYONE. Once again, look back in history.
I guarantee you you would get sick of communism after a while. You would see the true crapiness of how much you get cheeted out of. The fact about communism is, yea, they give you a check, but it isnt shit. It's just enough to get you by. Just the necessities. No xbox or plasma TV's for you. No vacations or nice cars because of extra hard work.

Thats why capitalism kicks ass. Rewards. Not structure.

something we call freedom
communism isnt freedom

so how about you. Do you want to be free? Think about that before you suspect yourself to communism.

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Originally Posted by Universal

So when can you send me my check?

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If you are the majority and elected me as government, yes.

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The one that people are the most jealous of. This is illustrated by the fact that NOBODY on this site who supposedly hates our war policy can passionately bitch about anybody else's war policy. You have noticed that, haven't you? After several requests, you and others showed nothing in that thread except obsession with the United States and very brief mentionings of those who seek to make Americans and Israelis literally extinct. People are going to be the most jealous of the most successful country, which is going to be the country with the best capitalism. Guess who that is. If you have a problem with us now, you just wait until we lower our tax code and use a financial incentive voucher system with our public schools. When that happens, your obsession with us is going to be ten fold. :wink:[/b]

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I think when someone is trowing waterballoons with paint at people that walk past, and I am sitting under the trajectory, then I think my 'obsession' is justified.

America does hold 3000 nukes, and has a senile president.

And why should I be jealous? Seriously, maybe if I lived in africa I would. I live in the Netherlands, my dad has a good job, I go to a good university. If I choose not to work I get a bigger check from the government then you get. But I will choose to work, and I will choose a job I like, regardless of how much I get paid. I don't care for a big house, no-one ever told me that is the thing to have. I have more freedoms, I can buy pot legally. :) I can get my g/f's aborted (not yet appying to me, but still). Why would I be jealous?

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Despite the provocative comments I just made toward Neruo so that he will take me up on my challenge to go off about a country other than the United States, I want the whole world to be capitalist. I don't think the United States kicks so much ass in business because we are genetically superior. The vast majority of us are the close descendants of the same people Neruo and others here are descendants of. The vast majority of us have great great grandparents who were born in Europe, so such an attitude would be really ridiculous. I just think we have the best economic system, and I invite the whole world to be capitalistic on the same, or better yet, even greater level than we are. I am pro-world, not just pro-America. I want Europe and other places to start kicking major ass economically, even if they kick ours. That CAN happen.
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America got so huge, becouse they are. Their country is huge. Their natural recources are huge. Their dollar has huge range people-wise. Their tv has a huge public so their commercials have huge effect. The amount of minimum-wage-earning people is huge. The companies can get huge. The money made on anti-depressants are huge.

Just becouse you have a big country, that allso has oil. And just alot of tax payers that do not care about their own schools and live, yes, you can buy alot of tanks indeed.

What is so big about america besides it's tanks? The people, yes. You just have cheap ground and cheap food. If europe had all that room you have, and would be properly united in language as you are, we would allso have become immensly powerfull.

Only that power corrups. There has to be a change in power every now and then. Eventually, power corrupts all, America is a long way down the road of moral corruption.

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And didn't russia beat your ass in the cold war? Not at the end of it, becouse of the stupid people that took control. But who had the first satalite? The first man in space? Russia had an average salary that was certainly in the race of the best 10 of the world.

A good working communist state Could kick your ass, without losing morals like you have. Yet this is extremely unlikely due to the nature of mankind.

You are not ready for communism. So lets stop about that.
Rather PLEASE explane why should one be jelaous. I really want to know. You should also know you are terribly wrong.

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Originally Posted by Hominus

you would never admitt jealosy, Bonsay

Capitalism kicks ass. America proved it.

As universal said, just wait until our taxes get cut to shit (no income taxes, maybe). European and Asian economies will go :thumbdown:

Communism would never run with ANYONE. Once again, look back in history.
I guarantee you you would get sick of communism after a while. You would see the true crapiness of how much you get cheeted out of. The fact about communism is, yea, they give you a check, but it isnt shit. It's just enough to get you by. Just the necessities. No xbox or plasma TV's for you. No vacations or nice cars because of extra hard work.

Thats why capitalism kicks ass. Rewards. Not structure.

something we call freedom
communism isnt freedom

so how about you. Do you want to be free? Think about that before you suspect yourself to communism.
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jesus tittyfucking christ, you are so much indoctrinated during the 70's. Wake up man. Russia wasn't the ideal state marx wanted. Russia was dictated. Russia sucked, yes.

Why do you keep going on about how much communism Lead to? I mean see man See the IDEA of communism. You just cannot grasp utopia or something. I do not see how utopia can exist with un-equality.

Look back in history? Why? Does that change the idea of communism? No, it just prooves that it is unlikely to work. But it doesn't make it's idea less good.

And like I said, russia before the fall of the USSR had an average salary that was pretty darn decent. If everyone truely does their jobs with pride, it would actually be more efficent then with people like you that just sit in an office mastrubating, as long as they get paid.

Stop compairing russia with communism. Those things are hardly related.

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You are just brainwashed or something that communism is bad, no matter what. Often it turns bad, yes. But if it would work, it would rock totally balls. Everyone would work hard, and like it.

Communism isn't freedom? Maybe stalin told people what to do, but I think that people in a real communist state would just do what they like most and can do best (wich is what they like, for they are not egocentric capitalists).

Don't talk about freedom when you live in america. Only ecomonically it is just about anarchy.

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Originally Posted by Neruo

And didn't russia beat your ass in the cold war? Not at the end of it, becouse of the stupid people that took control. But who had the first satalite? The first man in space? Russia had an average salary that was certainly in the race of the best 10 of the world.

A good working communist state Could kick your ass, without losing morals like you have. Yet this is extremely unlikely due to the nature of mankind.
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Your jealousy is showing again. You might want to cover it up. You can start by bitching about a country other than the one that is obviously making you so jealous.

We lead the space race, not the failed communist douche country. They collapsed. Guess why. Businesses in Russia sucked. Guess why. Capitalism is the reason we kick ass in business, history of inventions, military, space exploration, technology, scientific progress, medical knowledge, entertainment, and so on. Instead of being a jealous weenie about this, encourage your country to take up our economic ways. China, Russia, and India are much bigger than the United States, and look at how they are doing. Go figure.

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Originally Posted by Neruo

You are not ready for communism. So lets stop about that.
Rather PLEASE explane why should one be jelaous. I really want to know. You should also know you are terribly wrong.
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You shouldn't be jealous. You should improve your own country. I have told you how. I want a successful world. Then people can stop making such a big damn deal of my country.

And I am not jelaous. The only person here that is obsessed of America is Hominus, and he is american. He keeps making stupid threads on how america rocks and things like that. And then I'm obsessed? :|

I agree with hominus about capitalism being the best way to run a country. I voted:

"I like (the idea of) communism"

Emphasis on "the idea of". It's a great idea, but 1917's Russia prooved that it just doesn't work.

I had to read animal farm and see how it symbolises communism and it basically says, communism is a good idea about equality ect but most humans are too greedy to do it.

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Originally Posted by NeAvO

I had to read animal farm and see how it symbolises communism and it basically says, communism is a good idea about equality ect but most humans are too greedy to do it.
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Yeah, I read that book. It outlines what I said about Russia taking on communism, with the pigs representing the russion leaders, and the rest of the animals the exploited workers.

russia did fuck it up. both my greatgrandpa's died in siberia...more ppl wer killed by stalin than hitler etc..etc..

but russia didn't do communism the way Marx said it should be done. Russia made mistakes that wern't about communism and just leadership dictator problems. don't go by russia to say it doesn't work...it very well might not work...but it defintley wont work the way Lenin and Stalin did it. Communism was supposed to happen in an already industrial country...not one like russia were most ppl were peasants farmers etc..

Communism is an ideal. I'd like to think if a group of ppl were stranded on a desert island...and some ppl couldn't climb trees to get coconuts to eat...we wouldnt let them die...we'd share the food...get what im saying? lol ive got a high fever tonight...

i really think human nature will have to change for communism to work on a large scale.

sure, it may be the best way, but remember that we are animals. We will always have drives to improve our status, but in communism you cant do that. That is why it will always fail. There will always be greed. ALWAYS. Somebody gets too ambitious and fucks it up. ALWAYS.

the ideal is perfect, buts its impossible.

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Originally Posted by Hominus

sure, it may be the best way, but remember that we are animals. We will always have drives to improve our status, but in communism you cant do that. That is why it will always fail. There will always be greed. ALWAYS. Somebody gets too ambitious and fucks it up. ALWAYS.

the ideal is perfect, buts its impossible.
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That's because people don't evolve. They don't see the good thing about having a complete, friendly, growing society. Think about how much more we could acomplish with no wars and shit like that. Everything would go up :thumbup: . Do you think that if the whole world was communists, yachts or plasma TVs wouldn't exist?

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Originally Posted by badassbob

I agree with hominus about capitalism being the best way to run a country. I voted:

"I like (the idea of) communism"

Emphasis on "the idea of". It's a great idea, but 1917's Russia prooved that it just doesn't work.
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Yeah I agree, partially. It is currently just impossible to 'create' a communist state. People just don't accept it. It seems that people never will. I know this dude that is really into communist and he said that it is logic people don't accept it, becouse we grew up in a capitalistic world, and after a few generations the people would be able to accept communism, and make it work. I think he is partially true. But as long as there is rich and poor, communism is a long way away.

And once again, capitalism is indeed the best way to run a country, but not for the people in the lower classes :)

Anyhow the point is: You can hate 'communist' russia (everyone does), and vote for capitalists in actual elections, but you can still like what communism stands for: equality and such.

Let's say that 1000 of us go out and gather nuts for the winter because we will depend on them and nothing else for food. We have one month to do it before we have to go into a cave for three months. After the gathering, all 1000 of us will put the nuts into a huge pile and divide them up 1000 ways. First of all, do you think a lot of nust will be gathered? And how sure are you that you will get the number of nuts you deserve? My high/junior high school had about 1000 people. Think of a random sample of 1000 people from your school or else think of 1000 people from a few schools. How would the nut gathering go with those people? Imagine how many of them would want to spend most of their time smoking pot under the trees, playing Nintendo, getting drunk, and so forth while they feel totally secure that enough people are going to gather nuts. What would that pile end up looking like? If you worked your ass off to gather as many nuts as you could, would it be fair to end up with a great deal fewer than you gathered? And why would you work your ass off in the first place if you knew that you were going to get ripped off?

Now imagine a scenario where the 1000 people are told that they are going to have to gather nuts for the winter because they will have to depend on them and nothing else for food, but in this case, whatever a person gathers is what he has for the winter. Now tell me, HONESTLY... Do you think more nuts are going to be gathered in this scenario, or the first one? There will be a lot of otherwise lazy people getting off their asses when they would not have in the first scenario. Even if the lazy people will be in trouble with the law for not gathering nuts in the first scenario, they will do the minimum to get by. But if you tell them that they are on their own, they will be much more likely to make sure they pick lots of nuts. People who are prone to working hard will see the rewards of doing so here, and that will give them a reason to work really hard, often to the point of obsession.

In a national economy, it is money that works like that. On top of the above, the more money a person has, the more he spends, so the more he helps business growth, which benefits everybody. It creates jobs, and the service is generally very good. It makes people want to invent things and get businesses off the ground. Capitalism results in a very successful country where even the poorest people are fat. When the world figures this out, we are going to have an awesome world.

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Originally Posted by Universal

Let's say that 1000 of us go out and gather nuts for the winter because we will depend on them and nothing else for food. We have one month to do it before we have to go into a cave for three months. After the gathering, all 1000 of us will put the nuts into a huge pile and divide them up 1000 ways. First of all, do you think a lot of nust will be gathered? And how sure are you that you will get the number of nuts you deserve? My high/junior high school had about 1000 people. Think of a random sample of 1000 people from your school or else think of 1000 people from a few schools. How would the nut gathering go with those people? Imagine how many of them would want to spend most of their time smoking pot under the trees, playing Nintendo, getting drunk, and so forth while they feel totally secure that enough people are going to gather nuts. What would that pile end up looking like? If you worked your ass off to gather as many nuts as you could, would it be fair to end up with a great deal fewer than you gathered? And why would you work your ass off in the first place if you knew that you were going to get ripped off?

Now imagine a scenario where the 1000 people are told that they are going to have to gather nuts for the winter because they will have to depend on them and nothing else for food, but in this case, whatever a person gathers is what he has for the winter. Now tell me, HONESTLY... Do you think more nuts are going to be gathered in this scenario, or the first one? There will be a lot of otherwise lazy people getting off their asses when they would not have in the first scenario. Even if the lazy people will be in trouble with the law for not gathering nuts in the first scenario, they will do the minimum to get by. But if you tell them that they are on their own, they will be much more likely to make sure they pick lots of nuts. People who are prone to working hard will see the rewards of doing so here, and that will give them a reason to work really hard, often to the point of obsession.

In a national economy, it is money that works like that. On top of the above, the more money a person has, the more he spends, so the more he helps business growth, which benefits everybody. It creates jobs, and the service is generally very good. It makes people want to invent things and get businesses off the ground. Capitalism results in a very successful country where even the poorest people are fat. When the world figures this out, we are going to have an awesome world.
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Did I ever say communism works? No. It is a good idea however. Just imagen: If everyone raises their children with morals, that they actually believe that working hard is good. That helping other is equal to helping yourself. Ok ok, all sounds a bit floaty, but just as a theory.

I do not have given up so much hope in mankind that I think that our greed can't be changed to another cause. A mutal cause.

And look at weird people in the jungle. They actually all do work hard in a group. On a small scale communism Can work. On a large scale at the moment: hell no. But who knows, maybe it is possible.

What I dislike about you way is reasoning is that you added nothing in this post. You allready said communism doesn't work. Why post such an example? I allready know commumnism can't 'just' work in western society. I don't think a single person is that trusting in mankind. It just is realistic.

You managed to post something with 0 new information. Good job.

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Originally Posted by Neruo

What I dislike about you way is reasoning is that you added nothing in this post. You allready said communism doesn't work. Why post such an example? I allready know commumnism can't 'just' work in western society. I don't think a single person is that trusting in mankind. It just is realistic.

You managed to post something with 0 new information. Good job.

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Oh, I was thinking this thread was titled "Your View On Communism". I can't believe I discussed the topic of the thread here instead of dodging the topic, which is your way of handling certain threads. My post was a further illustration of what a bad idea communism is and always will be. I was also thinking that some people in this thread had supported the idea of communism. I'm sorry the Holland education system didn't teach you better reading comprehension.

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Originally Posted by Universal

Oh, I was thinking this thread was titled "Your View On Communism". I can't believe I discussed the topic of the thread here instead of dodging the topic, which is your way of handling certain threads. My post was a further illustration of what a bad idea communism is and always will be. I was also thinking that some people in this thread had supported the idea of communism. I'm sorry the Holland education system didn't teach you better reading comprehension.
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Ok if you lived in cannada you would at least guess at that my education system is worse in some cases then yours... but if you are from America and you go on critising someones Else's educational system?! :0

lol.

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You are contantly contradiction yourself. In the examples you gave the problem wasn't with the idea of communism, but with the mentality of the people.

I, in return could allso make a lame-ass example:

1000 people all go out to gather nuts, however it's a harsh winter, there might be little nuts to survive on. Everyone is dedicated to get nuts, and returns them to the treehouse (my story has a treehouse :P lol). Eventually the treehouse fills up with nuts, it might not be as full, but it might be enough for everyone to survive. When the night sets in, everyone gets in the big treehouse and eats the nuts, all an equal part. At the end of the long winter everyone gets out of the treehouse alive, and they are all happy.

1000 people all go out to gather nuts, however it's a harsh winter, there might be little nuts to survive on. Everyone is dedicated to get nuts, and them eats them right away. I mean, hey man, it be my nutz aight? A few stong people steal the nuts of some weak old ladies, then they fortify the treehouse and let no-one in. All the weaker people die outside during the winter. Inside the treehouse the criminals feast on the nuts. However they all eat to much and all die of herpes.

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See how it works? It is just the factor of mentality that can make or break communist. That doens't say a THING about the idea behind it. But I told that before, but you can't seem the graps the difference between an idea, a filosofy and something that actually applied for real.

Oh, so my post did raise some issues to be talked about? You are pretty quick to change your mind. I guess that's what happens when people get proven wrong so much.

Your point about the nuts did illustrate why laws are necessary. Good job.

The public schools in the U.S. suck. It is because our trash element, which benefits from what level of socialism we do have, brings down the average scores. But our non-trash, the children of capitallist minded parents, are the folks who make the United States lead the world in business, technology, space exploration, inventions, entertainment, etc.

If people will stop insulting my country, I will stop taking up for it by pointing out obvious facts. Let me know when you're ready for that.

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Originally Posted by Universal

Oh, so my post did raise some issues to be talked about? You are pretty quick to change your mind. I guess that's what happens when people get proven wrong so much. [/b]

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Like I said before, you can't get proved wrong about the utopia-like idea behind something, it was just ment as 'good'.

And no issues were raised, I just pointed out the flaws in your examples. Becouse I allready said before that the sole factor of the communist succes is the human one, the factor of mentality, of doing the right thing needed for it to work.

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Your point about the nuts did illustrate why laws are necessary. Good job. [/b]

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It allso points out that capitalism can fail.

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The public schools in the U.S. suck. It is because our trash element, which benefits from what level of socialism we do have, brings down the average scores. But our non-trash, the children of capitallist minded parents, are the folks who make the United States lead the world in business, technology, space exploration, inventions, entertainment, etc. [/b]

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You sure have a big trash element. And those people are genetially 'trash'? I am sure that alot of that 'trash' you talk of can be succesfull in your system as long as they are given the right chances. Like 'trading places', nice movie.

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If people will stop insulting my country, I will stop taking up for it by pointing out obvious facts. Let me know when you're ready for that.
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Why shouldn't I insult your country if there are so obviously flaws in it? You find you country perfect? Why are you so personally offended when I say america isn't quite the best country ever? I am totally ok if you go out trashing the netherlands. My country is far from perfect too, especially lately I disagree with the governemnt (new elections in a few months luckily :content: ) ).

Still, your blind love for you country facinates me. Incredible how far you are willing to go not to say a single negative thing about your beautifull utopia. Even when the facts rape you up the B-hole. :wink:

sure, our country has a shit load of flaws. Who doesnt? But what America did is prove that capitalism is the best way to run a country.

Sure, a flaw of capitalism is that not everyone has EXACTLY the same amount of advantages. But why should it be different? The parents of rich children worked their asses of to get a lot of money so they could pass their status along to their kids. Why should they be robbed of that?

capitalism fills a basic human need to be better than the next guy. That is how we survive. Communism doesnt fill this need. That is why it fails (on a large scale). And i think you understand that (as you have said in the last few posts)

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And no issues were raised, I just pointed out the flaws in your examples. Becouse I allready said before that the sole factor of the communist succes is the human one, the factor of mentality, of doing the right thing needed for it to work.

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Wow, I think that was the point of my illustration.

[/quote] It allso points out that capitalism can fail. [/quote]

... when law enforcement sucks. I agree.

[/quote] You sure have a big trash element. And those people are genetially 'trash'? I am sure that alot of that 'trash' you talk of can be succesfull in your system as long as they are given the right chances. Like 'trading places', nice movie. [/quote]

A big trash element? Yet we still kick the most ass in so many areas? We have the biggest success element in the world. You should stop putting me in a position where I need to say things like that. I never really even thought about stuff like that until Eurpopean weenies like you started squirming in jealousy and spewing hate.

No, I don't think our trash is genetically trash. I think their weaknesses result from years of failed socialist policies. It's a good thing we have our capitalism overshadow it. And Trading Places was a very funny movie, but not all that realistic. I don't think that even our brilliant socialist education principles can turn a street beggar into a sophisticated business man with good manners in just a few days. Or am I missing something?

[/quote] Why shouldn't I insult your country if there are so obviously flaws in it? [/quote]

Keep doing it. Like I said, I am flattered by your obsession with us. We Americans get a thrill every time we read or hear such things.

[/quote] You find you country perfect? [/quote]

Nope. I already explained that to you. I have a lot of domestic disagreements with my country. We need to lower our taxes a great deal, legalize drugs, get rid of our socialist programs, put the military on the Canadian and Mexican borders, and abolish parole for violent criminals, among other things. I still live in the best country in the world, however. Stop making me say that.

[/quote] Why are you so personally offended when I say america isn't quite the best country ever? [/quote]

I get a kick out of arguing with jealous weenies who lash out against the country they know will jump to their rescue in two seconds if they are ever attacked. I know your dream in life is to offend Americans any way, but we love to challenge you with the obvious and laugh at you when your jealousy turns to anger. Do you enjoy this as much as we do?

[/quote] I am totally ok if you go out trashing the netherlands. [/quote]

The what? Oh yeah, I've heard of you.

[/quote] Still, your blind love for you country facinates me. Incredible how far you are willing to go not to say a single negative thing about your beautifull utopia. Even when the facts rape you up the B-hole. :wink:
[/quote]

You have not been paying attention. Was your mother using your screen name when I talked several times about how our socialist policies in our tax code and our public schools are terrible? Did you not catch me talking about our need to legalize drugs? Get your mother off your computer so you can have some sort of clue about what is going on. I think the problem is that you are the one who sees my country as a Utopia, compared to your country... uh, what's it called?

word (my official new remark when universal hits the nail on the head)

and its true. You dont hear about Holland in the news alot. And what do they speak there? Hollish? OOOOO yea.....ENGLISH!!!!!!! !! and maybe a little dutch

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Originally Posted by Hominus

word (my official new remark when universal hits the nail on the head)

and its true. You dont hear about Holland in the news alot. And what do they speak there? Hollish? OOOOO yea.....ENGLISH!!!!!!! !! and maybe a little dutch
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We allso speak way better german and french then you do. Allso, regarding we are a small country, 16 million people, 0.266666667% of the world, we are doing pretty good on how well known we are and how well we did in the past. Allso, the mayflower had dutch people on board and new york, clearly you most well known city, was founded by the dutch. Allso, dutch has left it's mark in american language and culture. Cookie comes from the dutch word 'koekje', and santa claus, your greatest tradition, is a cheap clone of our 'sinterklaas'.

However what do your futile attack on my country has to do with anything? Maybe this is why people complained about you.

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Originally Posted by Hominus

A big trash element? Yet we still kick the most ass in so many areas? We have the biggest success element in the world. You should stop putting me in a position where I need to say things like that. I never really even thought about stuff like that until Eurpopean weenies like you started squirming in jealousy and spewing hate. [/b]

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Again your sad comments on jealousy and hate I allready explained about. And besides, alot of europeans are way proud of their country, like the french the the spanish. The french just about invented being proud of ones country. However you are right that we hate america. But we didn't hate it when it allready was the most powerfull and richest nation in the world, did we now? Just since your idiotic president, that was elected 2 times, started futile sick wars we started hating you. : )

Once again your agruments fail.

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Keep doing it. Like I said, I am flattered by your obsession with us. We Americans get a thrill every time we read or hear such things. [/b]

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You get an agressive thrill and start firering flawed arguements back at us, perhaps. However I am glad you like this discussion, for so do I, that is why I post so much. However I have nothing to prove, but according to the world's hate against america you do.

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Nope. I already explained that to you. I have a lot of domestic disagreements with my country. We need to lower our taxes a great deal, legalize drugs, get rid of our socialist programs, put the military on the Canadian and Mexican borders, and abolish parole for violent criminals, among other things. I still live in the best country in the world, however. Stop making me say that.
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Well that isn't going to happen. Every. Maybe a few of those things. But you are in a bad situation: There are just 2 sides in your country. Both arn't going to legalise drugs any time soon. However the most luck you have on that is with the democrats. However for the rest you are clearly republican. And guess what, the republicans all disagree with you, they arn't going to make drugs legal, ever :)

Unlike in the netherlands ^__^ . By the way, by the bad turn my government is taking, like with being way more strickt in keeping immigrants out and alot of fuss about letting nutcases on parole, plus the fact that we did legalise drugs, your needs totally fit in the netherlands. Maybe move there? ^__^

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I get a kick out of arguing with jealous weenies who lash out against the country they know will jump to their rescue in two seconds if they are ever attacked. I know your dream in life is to offend Americans any way, but we love to challenge you with the obvious and laugh at you when your jealousy turns to anger. Do you enjoy this as much as we do?
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I allready said there is no reason to be jalous of something that kills innocent civilians. Like in the nuke-japan topic, you two nutcases seem to have a hard time getting some things other people said into your head.

And by your totally hate-filled replies, I am guessing you don't like it, you just feel you have to : ) I am however wondering or you just really ignore the flaws I point out in your arguments by hart, or that you just hide it and use it to fuel your hate and close-mindedness even more.

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The what? Oh yeah, I've heard of you.
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See above text. I am proud of you that you even know we are a county. Can you point it out on a map? Alot of american's arn't a star in topography, are they?

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You have not been paying attention. Was your mother using your screen name when I talked several times about how our socialist policies in our tax code and our public schools are terrible? [/b]

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Yet you love your country. You acknowledge those sides of your country and act like it is meant to go with a perfect country. Or so you make it seem.

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Did you not catch me talking about our need to legalize drugs? Get your mother off your computer so you can have some sort of clue about what is going on. I think the problem is that you are the one who sees my country as a Utopia, compared to your country... uh, what's it called?
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A country that furfills at least one of the things you want, legalised drugs.

But really, name a downside about my country. I would love to hear one. I can personally think of alot (unfortunately :( ) but I just would like to hear what is wrong with my country compairing to yours.

The Dutchman squirms again. Here we go... :yumdumdoodledum:

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We allso speak way better german and french then you do. Allso, regarding we are a small country, 16 million people, 0.266666667% of the world, we are doing pretty good on how well known we are and how well we did in the past. Allso, the mayflower had dutch people on board and new york, clearly you most well known city, was founded by the dutch. Allso, dutch has left it's mark in american language and culture. Cookie comes from the dutch word 'koekje', and santa claus, your greatest tradition, is a cheap clone of our 'sinterklaas'.

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Damn, that's very impressive. Cookies and Santa Claus. It looks like the top Dutch accomplishments have to do with how they influenced American culture. Gee, I just can't understand why you are so jealous.

[/quote] However what do your futile attack on my country has to do with anything? Maybe this is why people complained about you.
Again your sad comments on jealousy and hate I allready explained about. And besides, alot of europeans are way proud of their country, like the french the the spanish. The french just about invented being proud of ones country. However you are right that we hate america. But we didn't hate it when it allready was the most powerfull and richest nation in the world, did we now? Just since your idiotic president, that was elected 2 times, started futile sick wars we started hating you. : ) [/quote]

Hate filled? Try comedy filled, hypocrite. You worms are a riot. The fact that my country is creating democracy in the Middle East, such an incredible landmark event in human history, is boiling up the jealousy and hate that was already in Europe. It will be a cold day in Hell before Holland is ever able to pull off such an accomplishment. Thus, your squirming envy and hate. You are not going to be able to hide it from us.

[/quote] Once again your agruments fail.
You get an agressive thrill and start firering flawed arguements back at us, perhaps. However I am glad you like this discussion, for so do I, that is why I post so much. However I have nothing to prove, but according to the world's hate against america you do. [/quote]

Nothing to prove? You spend way too much of your time obsessing your life over a country that is on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, you pathetic loser. You are obsessed with proving things about the far distant country. At least I live in the damn country we keep talking about.

[/quote] Well that isn't going to happen. Every. Maybe a few of those things. But you are in a bad situation: There are just 2 sides in your country. Both arn't going to legalise drugs any time soon. However the most luck you have on that is with the democrats. However for the rest you are clearly republican. And guess what, the republicans all disagree with you, they arn't going to make drugs legal, ever :) [/quote]

You missed the part about "among other things". You also overlooked the fact that I was talking about necessary changes and not praising the current status of anything. I didn't mention that I think we should get religion completely out of the government, i.e. "In God We Trust" on coins and even Congressional prayers. I am pro-choice, I think strip clubs should be legal everywhere, and I don't think it should be illegal to burn the American flag. I am a Libertarian on every issue except foreign policy issues. I am not a Republican. Any way, the point is that I do not blindly accept everything my government does and think it is flawless. That was a false assumption you made due to your severe jealousy of my country's greatness compared to yours. Your argument failed, as always.

[/quote] Unlike in the netherlands ^__^ . By the way, by the bad turn my government is taking, like with being way more strickt in keeping immigrants out and alot of fuss about letting nutcases on parole, plus the fact that we did legalise drugs, your needs totally fit in the netherlands. Maybe move there? ^__^
I allready said there is no reason to be jalous of something that kills innocent civilians. Like in the nuke-japan topic, you two nutcases seem to have a hard time getting some things other people said into your head. [/quote]

Sometimes some civilians have to die so that many times more can be saved. If you truly gave a damn about civilians, you would agree. But unfortunately, you are a fraud.

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Yeah sometimes I too have the urge to see dead people. Sometimes it is funny, like someone that fell between the platform and a metro, and his skull was just scraped way.

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[/quote] And by your totally hate-filled replies, I am guessing you don't like it, you just feel you have to : ) I am however wondering or you just really ignore the flaws I point out in your arguments by hart, or that you just hide it and use it to fuel your hate and close-mindedness even more.
See above text. I am proud of you that you even know we are a county. Can you point it out on a map? Alot of american's arn't a star in topography, are they? [/quote]

I can find your silly country on a map, although it is so obscure and irrelevant.


[/quote] Yet you love your country. You acknowledge those sides of your country and act like it is meant to go with a perfect country. Or so you make it seem. [/quote]

Oh, I was thinking I said we need to change those things. Do I have to stop loving my country because I disagree with some of its laws?


[/quote] A country that furfills at least one of the things you want, legalised drugs. [/quote]

Only some drugs. We have some legal recreational drugs too, like alcohol, tobacco, and salvia divinorum. I also believe in legal prostitution. But that does not mean that Holland has much to be proud about.

[/quote] But really, name a downside about my country. I would love to hear one. I can personally think of alot (unfortunately :( ) but I just would like to hear what is wrong with my country compairing to yours.
[/quote]

It's hard to bitch too much about windmills and wooden shoes. You just don't have our record of leading the world in liberation and humanitarian aid. You don't have the power to be the world's police. You are a nothing country. That is fine with me, though. I hope to eventually have a vacation home in Amsterdam. You have a beautiful, fun country. But if you keep insulting my country, I am going to keep pointing out how weak and obscure you are. I don't hold your obscurity against you. I just point out that it is what has you pissing fire about my country.

First of all, learn to quote.

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Originally Posted by Universal

The Dutchman squirms again. Here we go... :yumdumdoodledum:
Damn, that's very impressive. Cookies and Santa Claus. It looks like the top Dutch accomplishments have to do with how they influenced American culture. Gee, I just can't understand why you are so jealous.
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Only using the lesser parts of my argumentation clearly shows that you are using immoral and pathetic forms or debate. By the way it was you that had something to say about my country first, even though we weren't discussing it. Allso, it's clear that the dutch education system is way way better then the american one. You seem to be a nice example.

Sorry about that, it was a bit harsh. At least I didn't feel like I lied.

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Hate filled? Try comedy filled, hypocrite. You worms are a riot. The fact that my country is creating democracy in the Middle East, such an incredible landmark event in human history, is boiling up the jealousy and hate that was already in Europe. It will be a cold day in Hell before Holland is ever able to pull off such an accomplishment. Thus, your squirming envy and hate. You are not going to be able to hide it from us.
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First of all. Build some democracy in your own countries. I am quite sure that all experts will say that my country, as are most all europan countries are a better example of democracy then your country is.


And oh, getting your troops bombed daily by two groups of people now killing themselves and allso their own governments policemen... that is democracy? I though it was called anarchy.

Lol, democracy, hilarious. You americans allready just about left afganistan, and left behind anarchy that will just result in some extremist government for sure, but only after years of civil war between parties. Nicely done, America.

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Nothing to prove? You spend way too much of your time obsessing your life over a country that is on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, you pathetic loser. You are obsessed with proving things about the far distant country. At least I live in the damn country we keep talking about.
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Am I actually coming to a country across the ocean to invade them, under the motto of 'spreading democracy', but then leaving becouse you can't win, leaving the country in anarchy? Am I doing that? What seems more silly? That, or debating about a sick state that has killed so many...

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You missed the part about "among other things". You also overlooked the fact that I was talking about necessary changes and not praising the current status of anything. I didn't mention that I think we should get religion completely out of the government, i.e. "In God We Trust" on coins and even Congressional prayers. I am pro-choice, I think strip clubs should be legal everywhere, and I don't think it should be illegal to burn the American flag. I am a Libertarian on every issue except foreign policy issues. I am not a Republican. Any way, the point is that I do not blindly accept everything my government does and think it is flawless. That was a false assumption you made due to your severe jealousy of my country's greatness compared to yours. Your argument failed, as always. [/b]

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Well good luck in politics. Unless your dad is in some rich higher circles, with I doubt he is, your ideal america will never be true. While I actually could go into politics in the netherlands, with enough dedication hell, I could maybe even become prime-minster. At least I have so much more power over my country then you have. But I don't even have the need to change that much. As long as I have my cheap weed and my rights : )

Like my right to burn both dutch and american flags. But lets start with an american one, just for fun : )

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Sometimes some civilians have to die so that many times more can be saved. If you truly gave a damn about civilians, you would agree. But unfortunately, you are a fraud. [/b]

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yeah. I wished I cared for the people in afganistan as much as the americans do. Man.. what an example.

How much do you care about the people in guantanamo bay? I do care about them. And I care about poor american brainwashed nitwits getting totally traumatised by the war.

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I can find your silly country on a map, although it is so obscure and irrelevant. [/b]

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Yet I enjoy more freedoms then you do. You can't deny that. : ) What freedoms do you have I havn't?

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Oh, I was thinking I said we need to change those things. Do I have to stop loving my country because I disagree with some of its laws? [/b]

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You should love to better your country. Yet you seem unwilling, but you especially seem powerless.

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Only some drugs. We have some legal recreational drugs too, like alcohol, tobacco, and salvia divinorum. I also believe in legal prostitution. But that does not mean that Holland has much to be proud about. [/b]

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yeah I couldn't hear you becouse of the legalness of magic mushrooms. Allso, I thought is was even legal to carry around little doses of hard-drugs here.

Allso, in abortion, gay-marridge, equal rights and such, we are way ahead of your country, let alone the state you live in.

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It's hard to bitch too much about windmills and wooden shoes. [/b]

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Ever been to the netherlands? Man the last time I saw a windmill was a loooong time ago.

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You just don't have our record of leading the world in liberation and humanitarian aid. You don't have the power to be the world's police. You are a nothing country. That is fine with me, though. I hope to eventually have a vacation home in Amsterdam. You have a beautiful, fun country. But if you keep insulting my country, I am going to keep pointing out how weak and obscure you are. I don't hold your obscurity against you. I just point out that it is what has you pissing fire about my country.
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I have the right to piss about your country. Soon, you will not even have that right. You will not be able to burn your own flag, while I will be. Ironic.

You seem like a sad person, universal. To bad you don't actually go into the army and see the democracy america is spreading though the world, with bombs.

Just for you, I will allso post some pics tomorrow of this small american flag I still have lying around from some trip to america a few years ago, getting burned. Just to demonstrate how burning a flag does not harm anyone, but dropping those flags, attached to bombs, does.

.....................word


keep in mind, all you america haters, that the US is THE LEADING country in humanitarian affairs. We send aid to countries Europe doesnt give a damn about.

by the way, universal, a member of the staff told me that people are complaining about how i argue. Am i unfair? Do you think what i do and what i post warrant complaints? I dont feel so. I just want to know if people are complaining about you too.

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Originally Posted by Hominus

by the way, universal, a member of the staff told me that people are complaining about how i argue. Am i unfair? Do you think what i do and what i post warrant complaints? I dont feel so. I just want to know if people are complaining about you too.
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I do admit it is weird they complained about you, universal seems much more -as said in poker- on 'tilt'.

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Originally Posted by Hominus

.....................word
keep in mind, all you america haters, that the US is THE LEADING country in humanitarian affairs. We send aid to countries Europe doesnt give a damn about.[/b]

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Keep in mind, all you america lovers, that the US is THE LEADING country in bombing other countries. We send bombers to countries Europe doesn't even see as a danger to the world. (for they arn't.)

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First of all, learn to quote.

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The quoting mechanism was screwing up for you similarly two days ago. You find some weak stuff to be arrogant about. Tell me more about your cookies.

[/quote] Only using the lesser parts of my argumentation clearly shows that you are using immoral and pathetic forms or debate. By the way it was you that had something to say about my country first, even though we weren't discussing it. Allso, it's clear that the dutch education system is way way better then the american one. You seem to be a nice example. [/quote]

Does the Dutch Education system teach you to leap to bizarre conclusions? It is all you do here, in the process or squirming with hateful envy. And tell me what all you know about my law degree and the top ranked schools from which I gradutated. (Suggestion: Ignorant insults result in such comments. You can stop learning the truth whenever you are ready.)

[/quote] Sorry about that, it was a bit harsh. At least I didn't feel like I lied.
First of all. Build some democracy in your own countries. I am quite sure that all experts will say that my country, as are most all europan countries are a better example of democracy then your country is. [/quote]

Jealous Europeans don't qualify as experts, as does nobody with an hate-filled inferiority complex.

[/quote] And oh, getting your troops bombed daily by two groups of people now killing themselves and allso their own governments policemen... that is democracy? I though it was called anarchy.

Lol, democracy, hilarious. You americans allready just about left afganistan, and left behind anarchy that will just result in some extremist government for sure, but only after years of civil war between parties. Nicely done, America.
Am I actually coming to a country across the ocean to invade them, under the motto of 'spreading democracy', but then leaving becouse you can't win, leaving the country in anarchy? Am I doing that? What seems more silly? That, or debating about a sick state that has killed so many... [/quote]

A common fallacy you rationalize there. Let me correct you. A transition phase is not the measure of the rest of history. The civilians of which you speak can vote now, and they do it in greater percentages than Americans. We are in the very early stages of liberating the Middle East. Sorry to break the good news to you.


[/quote] Well good luck in politics. Unless your dad is in some rich higher circles, with I doubt he is, your ideal america will never be true. While I actually could go into politics in the netherlands, with enough dedication hell, I could maybe even become prime-minster. At least I have so much more power over my country then you have. But I don't even have the need to change that much. As long as I have my cheap weed and my rights : ) [/quote]

You just called your country pathetic, although you didn't mean to. And for your information, to counter yet another false assumption, my father is a millionaire. However, I don't give a damn about running for office. To be successful, I would have to be as full of shit as you are. But don't let that encourage you. You would have to be much smarter.

[/quote] Like my right to burn both dutch and american flags. But lets start with an american one, just for fun : )
yeah. I wished I cared for the people in afganistan as much as the americans do. Man.. what an example. [/quote]

You would have to start with giving a damn about at least one person other than yourself. Good luck.

[/quote] How much do you care about the people in guantanamo bay? I do care about them. And I care about poor american brainwashed nitwits getting totally traumatised by the war.
Yet I enjoy more freedoms then you do. You can't deny that. : ) What freedoms do you have I havn't? [/quote]

The economic freedom to not be a piss ant who hates the successful. I have the freedom to be riiiiiiiiiiiiich here. I can't legally screw prostitutes and smoke marijuana and take mushrooms, but getting away with such stuff is easy as cake here. Besides, I quit smoking marijuana and have plenty of hot non-prostitute women in my country that are even hotter than your prostitutes. I can order the ingredients for ayahuasca legally, and salvia divinorum is legal here. I also live in the mushroom capital of the universe. All you have to do here is know a cattle farmer and get permission to walk on his farm. So try another excuse for asserting superiority.


[/quote] You should love to better your country. Yet you seem unwilling, but you especially seem powerless.
yeah I couldn't hear you becouse of the legalness of magic mushrooms. Allso, I thought is was even legal to carry around little doses of hard-drugs here. [/quote]

But you still have the dangers of an underground market. That is my biggest problem with drug prohibition. I don't care about shooting heroin and snorting cocaine for myself. And improve your reading comprehension so you can read what I have said about bettering my country, like in this very paragraph.

[/quote] Allso, in abortion, gay-marridge, equal rights and such, we are way ahead of your country, let alone the state you live in.
Ever been to the netherlands? Man the last time I saw a windmill was a loooong time ago.
I have the right to piss about your country. Soon, you will not even have that right. You will not be able to burn your own flag, while I will be. Ironic. [/quote]

You do have some areas of social freedoms that we don't have, but those issues are less important than good economics and defense, as illustrated by your wormy jealousy. I am not going to be jealous of you because two men can get married in your country. Sorry.

[/quote] You seem like a sad person, universal. To bad you don't actually go into the army and see the democracy america is spreading though the world, with bombs. [/quote]

But I live in the country that you are so envious of, so I don't believe you. What's it like to be such a worm?

[/quote] Just for you, I will allso post some pics tomorrow of this small american flag I still have lying around from some trip to america a few years ago, getting burned. Just to demonstrate how burning a flag does not harm anyone, but dropping those flags, attached to bombs, does.
[/quote]

I am sure you will make your father very proud.

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Originally Posted by Hominus

.....................word
keep in mind, all you america haters, that the US is THE LEADING country in humanitarian affairs. We send aid to countries Europe doesnt give a damn about.

by the way, universal, a member of the staff told me that people are complaining about how i argue. Am i unfair? Do you think what i do and what i post warrant complaints? I dont feel so. I just want to know if people are complaining about you too.

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I have not gotten a complaint, but I should probably chill with the Neruo bashing. Where I see hostility, I start reacting as though I am on the religion forum. It has slipped my mind a few times that we are not supposed to be rude here. But I don't initiate rudeness. When people call my country a terrorist state, they are initiating the hostility. If that is accepted, the I assume that my responses will be accepted.

I have made a lot of comments about American economic and military superiority, but that is obviously to counter the arguments of the people who are bashing America, and in the cases of a few rotten individuals, to press their buttons. It is not stuff I think too much about in other situations. Some of your posts have seemed to have the same purpose, and that is probably what they are complaining about. But I don't think you have been the initiator of the conflicts in this forum.

word X5

Ok... I read like the first three pages and just decided to skip the rest. First, I've been out for a time, and well, Neruo, not to take it against you, you always post on the same basic base of little knowledge you have about big issues and make defending stands against thing you obviously don't know or understand, and last time I saw you on a topic discussin comunism(that I remember), you weren't in favor of it! :s. Now as for the other two(sorry forgat your nicks) who keep defending capitalism and teaming up on nonsense, should actually read a couple of books and understand a bit comunism, and how it is actually supposed to function, and capitalism, wich you also do seem not to understand or even know how it works, and less talk about economy do to how you guys actually think it works.

I don't mean to be offensive, but I once got tired of discussing this tipe of things with people here who seem to blur out to much opinions without knowing anything about what their talking, and making dicussions useless. Anyone else who doesn't know much who you would really like to discuss this kinds of things I'd recomend you studied up a bit and understand the seriousness of this issues before bringing them up, or be more neutral on opinions and learn from people who give more insightfull or acknowledgeable facts.

Last time we talked, I was against cuba, what I still am. I really doubt fidel wants the best for your country.

And really, if anyones vision is likely to be clogged on this topic it is you, becouse you actually grew up in a (supposably) communist country. I am sure there is nationalism there allmost as much as there is in america.

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Originally Posted by Sortilegio

Ok... I read like the first three pages and just decided to skip the rest. First, I've been out for a time, and well, Neruo, not to take it against you, you always post on the same basic base of little knowledge you have about big issues and make defending stands against thing you obviously don't know or understand, and last time I saw you on a topic discussin comunism(that I remember), you weren't in favor of it! :s. Now as for the other two(sorry forgat your nicks) who keep defending capitalism and teaming up on nonsense, should actually read a couple of books and understand a bit comunism, and how it is actually supposed to function, and capitalism, wich you also do seem not to understand or even know how it works, and less talk about economy do to how you guys actually think it works.

I don't mean to be offensive, but I once got tired of discussing this tipe of things with people here who seem to blur out to much opinions without knowing anything about what their talking, and making dicussions useless. Anyone else who doesn't know much who you would really like to discuss this kinds of things I'd recomend you studied up a bit and understand the seriousness of this issues before bringing them up, or be more neutral on opinions and learn from people who give more insightfull or acknowledgeable facts.
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Thank you for adding absolutely nothing. Since you are the one guy here who understands communism and the only one who understands capitalism, why didn't you explain them and give your opinions? If you think I don't understand capitalism, you are just being really ignorant. Let's see if you can analyze it better, or even at all. The same goes for communism. I want to add that it is hilarious to see somebody insult my level of knowledge while using the worst grammar and spelling I have ever seen on this web site. Perhaps you should learn how to speak English before you try insult what people say when they are speaking it. You might have interpreted my words as saying that moon pies are rough on squirrels. It looks like you might as well have.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/communism

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/capitalism

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

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Originally Posted by Bonsay

I agree, comunism is the best. :bravo: Though it really can't work. People are and always will be greedy.
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Comminism works within the US in small groups in the midwest.Theyre called "communes" basiclly a bunch of hippies that farm and share everyhting they have.

http://60sfurther.com/Communes.htm

I don't doubt that it would work, with the right people ofcourse.

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Originally Posted by TheNocturnalGent

Comminism works within the US in small groups in the midwest.Theyre called "communes" basiclly a bunch of hippies that farm and share everyhting they have.

http://60sfurther.com/Communes.htm
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It works when everybody wants it to work. But that is not something that could ever happen in large populations. Watch what happens when you put large numbers of welfare recipients and heroin addicts on those communes. The hippies there will buy guns and start yelling, "If you don't work, you don't eat!" and, "Who the Hell pawned our CD collection?!!!!!"

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Originally Posted by Universal

It works when everybody wants it to work. But that is not something that could ever happen in large populations. Watch what happens when you put large numbers of welfare recipients and heroin addicts on those communes. The hippies there will buy guns and start yelling, "If you don't work, you don't eat!" and, "Who the Hell pawned our CD collection?!!!!!"
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haha, i dont disagree. I dont think communism can work on a large scale unless absoluley everyone involved was in agreement. A utopian government is no government. The best way to this is through Communism but for it to work on any scale any higher powers or people would have to step down and join the common man

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Originally Posted by Universal

It works when everybody wants it to work. But that is not something that could ever happen in large populations.
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Man, finally. That was all I wanted to hear from you about communism :)

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Besides that, once (or if) we solved all the hunger and poverty and war in the world, would an utopia-like-world have communism (theoretical communism, there would be no need for political parties ect.) as form of society? Or like just extreme socialism, what would kind of be the same. Not like anyone really has to work then, becouse of robots and such..

Basicly, by the time communism could work, it is allso obsolete.

I was thinking the other day America should have a communist revolution. The proletariat are being fucked by the bourgeoisie as much as ever. and the prols are already armed. im sure they could get funding from hugo chavez, fidel, iran, north korea too. karl should have wrote his plans and ideas in a slightly easier way for the "worker" to understand...maybe this could have happened by now...america is already industrialized with unfair wealth distribution. why don't the working poor rise up?

so am i batshit crazy? maybe? or viva la revolution...why not..?

I find the Bush regime in the US much more scary than communism ever was, and I grew up during the 'Cold War'!

The american pubic is much too ill equipt to ever star a revolution. The governemnt controlls the media. Even if a revolution did start it would be immediatelystamped as terrorism. The chance of the idea of a revolution remaining completely in the dark of the american governement is slim to none.

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Originally Posted by ;318926

I was thinking the other day America should have a communist revolution. The proletariat are being fucked by the bourgeoisie as much as ever. and the prols are already armed. im sure they could get funding from hugo chavez, fidel, iran, north korea too. karl should have wrote his plans and ideas in a slightly easier way for the "worker" to understand...maybe this could have happened by now...america is already industrialized with unfair wealth distribution. why don't the working poor rise up?

so am i batshit crazy? maybe? or viva la revolution...why not..?
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Without the rich, the poor would be much poorer. Who do you think creates jobs? The poor use the products the rich create and work the jobs the rich create, except when they leech off the government resources the rich create. "Rising up" against the rich is biting the hand that feeds you.

Unequal distribution of wealth is just as natural as unequal distribution of grades and unequal distribution of intelligence. Trying to artificially create equal distribution of wealth screws everything up by taking away incentive, which is the big generator that makes things happen. Without incentive, things get watered down for everybody. If the poor rise up against the rich over unequal distribution of wealth, it will be a result of unequal distribution of intelligence. It will be suicide.

There are two kinds of people in the world. There are those who feel better about themselves by making their own situations better. Then there are those who feel better about themselves by hatefully downplaying those who have made their own situations better. The latter are a pathetic and despiccable bunch. I wish they would start trying to improve themselves instead of just copping out by dogging and trying to screw things up for those who did. The success haters are the ones who would "rise up" against the rich. I quote "rise up" because I think the literal interpretation is a good thing. I wish they would actually rise up. But what they wish to do is not truly rise up. They want to make the rich "lower down". They obsess their lives over it instead of getting fire up about making themselves better. That is what is so terrible and pathetic.

I am not saying that all poor people are like that, and I am not saying that everybody who thinks there is injustice regarding special priviliges for the rich is like that. I just think that the type of person who shows up with a militia at the White House because he is mad about not having enough money needs to put the gun down and start doing his best to climb a corporate ladder instead. It will make him much happier in the long run.

Why were you discussing communism and how everybody gets paid equally at the same time?
Communism is an ideal system without money.
What you were discussing is called socialism, which is supposed to eventually lead society to communism. But even then you weren't discussing it correctly, because in socialism not everybody gets paid equally, too! Jobs are different, and fees are still different. They just aren’t as much different as in capitalism. For example, if in capitalism the gap between the rich and the poor earnings can easily be 1 to 1000, in socialism it would be controlled to be 1 to 20 or something alike. As a result, all the money that the rich normally take away from the society gets sorted more or less equally instead.
There’s another big difference. In socialism the people who do hard jobs get paid decently for their hard work, and those who sit on their chair in the office get paid less, because their jobs aren’t as hard.
Mind you, socialism is not social-democracy: social-democracy is capitalism that tries to be kinder to poor and jobless people by giving them free money. And socialism is an entirely different system.

Anybody who favors communism has no ambition. Its not about "teating everybody fairly". Its about having somebody else control your life. Those who cant succeed want communism. Those who dont have the ability to take care of themselves want communism. They want everything structured.

Communism will never work because a communist nation can never advance. Look at America. The a large portion of important inventions the modern world has seen came from Americans. In communism, there is no incentive. There is no reason to come up with the next cool thing. The government will just get all the money and dole it out evenly to people who dont deserve it. Its counter-progressive.

That is all assuming that it is a TRUE communist nation, as opposed to the government just killing you and stealing the invention.

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Originally Posted by Intended

Why were you discussing communism and how everybody gets paid equally at the same time?
Communism is an ideal system without money.
What you were discussing is called socialism, which is supposed to eventually lead society to communism. But even then you weren't discussing it correctly, because in socialism not everybody gets paid equally, too!

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That might be a record dormancy thread resurrection. I'll have to check. Did you hunt this one down on page 50 or something? Wow.

Communism is not socialism, but it still involves the same basic principle-- prevention of social heirarchy, at least to a major extent. Although communism involves the government's ownership of everything and the people's ownership of nothing, there is equal distribution of wealth because 0 = 0. It is about prevention of success, with the supposed aim of the prevention of failure. But for the reasons I stated, it guarantees failure. It itself is a failure. There must be unequal distribution of wealth, and it must exist very close to its natural state. Job values are not equal. That is a fact of nature. Major tampering with that law of nature through equal distribution of wealth, or the destruction of the unequal distribution of wealth (since you prefer to have it put that way), results in major destruction.

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Look at America. The a large portion of important inventions the modern world has seen came from Americans.

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Please stop this patriotic nonsense. It proves nothing.
Let’s look at Tibet. Do you know why in Tibet they don’t make inventions? Because their land is bad for growing things, their air is heavy (you can’t work for a long time). They can’t even have capitalism or socialism, because there’s nothing to distribute, equally or unequally. Tibetans often have a little to eat and seek refuge in spiritual practices. Foreigners don’t normally put a lot of money in Tibet, because it doesn’t pay off.
Think of it. It’s the circumstances that make Tibetans live like that. Such circumstances exist for every country, making one have an easy and quick way to success, another have a hard and slow way to success, and yet another to have no way to success.

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In communism, there is no incentive. There is no reason to come up with the next cool thing.

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Sure, if you work for money that’s true for you, but if you can’t imagine working for pleasure that’s really sad. People who actually invent simply love their jobs, they’re fanatics. That means you’ll never invent anything important, so you might want to take it into account and change your attitude.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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There must be unequal distribution of wealth, and it must exist very close to its natural state.

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Indeed, but it is unnatural for it to be as unequal as 1 to 1000000.
Look at animals if you want natural: you’ll never see 100 foxes catching 100 hares, and then have a single fox eat everything and have all others die of hunger. While in capitalism such a possibility is artificially made true.
And please don’t repeat the old lies about how all the poor can make their situation better if they try hard enough: see, if they could all do it, capitalism would die at once! The biggest flaw of capitalism is that you can’t afford a 100% of people suscessful, because for capitalism to work the unsuccessful are needed.

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Job values are not equal

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Indeed, hard work and sitting on a chair aren’t equal. But for some reason in capitalistic societies hard work costs less than mere sitting on a chair and banging your hands on the keyboard. See, the majority of people who sit on their chairs are parasites.

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It is about prevention of success

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Only as long as you view success as being the one who’s 1000000 richer than 99% of others. It’s called greed, and if it’s greed that drives you, it makes no sense to talk to you.

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That might be a record dormancy thread resurrection.

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I didn’t know it was that old. Found it by reading one person’s posts through his profile.

Im a proud finn, im gonna be killing commies in the future

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Im a proud finn, im gonna be killing commies in the future

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Sorry, commies don't want to occupy a waste land.

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Think of it. It’s the circumstances that make Tibetans live like that. Such circumstances exist for every country, making one have an easy and quick way to success, another have a hard and slow way to success, and yet another to have no way to success.

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I agree, another thing people who think communism has destroyed Tibet are stupid. Look at Tibet before communism and it didn't even have a decent supply off water, plus they were slaves to the dalai lama(look it up also CIA coup). Atleast communism is actually making the Tibetan peoples lives better, unlike capatalism. American would not have been so successful if they didn't have such good land that could grow cotten and other stuff.

When people stop critizing GM crops then maybe poor countries can start to become richer. When we run out off OIL then it will test how good america is I think after the Iraq war america can't invade another country for OIL.

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Please stop this patriotic nonsense. It proves nothing.

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I also agree, the history of america is just killing red indians and then lots of black people become slaves, nothing to be proud off.

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Look at America. The a large portion of important inventions the modern world has seen came from Americans.

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The modern airplane and the light bulb, wow.

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Major tampering with that law of nature through equal distribution of wealth, or the destruction of the unequal distribution of wealth (since you prefer to have it put that way), results in major destruction.

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The wall street crash

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Originally Posted by wendylove

Sorry, commies don't want to occupy a waste land.

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they tried three times.

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they tried three times.

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The cold war has changed everything, now commies don't want to occupy a waste land.

thats why the russian civilians are immigrating to finland

Ba-da zihhh!

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thats why the russian civilians are immigrating to finland

Ba-da zihhh!

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Putin is not communist. The only reason why russian civilians are immigrating to finland is because living in a wasteland where you don't get killed is better then living in a wasteland where you get killed. Jail or a wasteland, I would choose finland over jail anyday.

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Originally Posted by wendylove

Putin is not communist. The only reason why russian civilians are immigrating to finland is because living in a wasteland where you don't get killed is better then living in a wasteland where you get killed. Jail or a wasteland, I would choose finland over jail anyday.

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meh, im starting to get offended though "I would choose finland over jail anyday" is the closest to a compliment i got from you so far :smitten:

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Originally Posted by Snooze

meh, im starting to get offended though "I would choose finland over jail anyday" is the closest to a compliment i got from you so far :smitten:

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yea, it sucks to have your country ripped on, doesnt it.

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

yea, it sucks to have your country ripped on, doesnt it.

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mmhmm
and i cant fight back since 95% of u guys r americans ;)

Only joking, Finland is one off the best places to live in Europe. It just you're killing commies post is a bit offensive espically because I'm a commie.

I would never live in america or even go their.

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Originally Posted by wendylove

Only joking, Finland is one off the best places to live in Europe. It just you're killing commies post is a bit offensive espically because I'm a commie.

I would never live in america or even go their.

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Ohhh , sorry then :) its the soviets i dont like actually, but those guys dont exist anymore so its all good

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Ohhh , sorry then :) its the soviets i dont like actually, but those guys dont exist anymore so its all good

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Nevermind, I would be pretty annoyed if the old soviets try to take over my country.

Great poll, and interesting results. :)

Communism's a beautiful idea in my opinion.

The 'problem' is that it hinges upon the transcendence from the 'dog eat dog', Darwinian nature of capitalism; I believe Darwinian systems are brought about by nature, and are NOT perfect; rather, concious beings can intelligently set up systems which are better, as nature is just the result of cold probability.

Unfortunately and unsurprisingly, it would seem that not all humans are responsible enough to make the effort.

Communism does work, if everybody in the state is truly a communist, I think. Stalin obviously had no respect for the ideology.

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Originally Posted by Intended

Sure, if you work for money that’s true for you, but if you can’t imagine working for pleasure that’s really sad.

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The vast majority of people work for money. Good luck changing that law of nature. Most inventions come about because of greed, and practically all big businesses, which greatly help the economy by the way, are the result of greed. Greed is what makes the United States the richest country in the world, which results in the most upscale poverty class in the world. Even our homeless people are fat. I wish all countries would become more capitalistic so everybody could be happier.

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Originally Posted by Intended

Indeed, but it is unnatural for it to be as unequal as 1 to 1000000.

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It would be unnatural for foxes, but not for a species as diverse as humans. Reaching for that kind of success is what makes the machine tick, and we have the most successful machine in the world. Before you call what I am saying "patriotic", please recognize that it is a relevant fact to this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Intended

Indeed, hard work and sitting on a chair aren’t equal. But for some reason in capitalistic societies hard work costs less than mere sitting on a chair and banging your hands on the keyboard. See, the majority of people who sit on their chairs are parasites.

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No, they create the things you enjoy, such as the computer and software you are using right now. The job of a man running Microsoft is worth more than the job of a man flipping some hamburgers. That is another law of nature we have to take into account when making economic policies.

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Originally Posted by Intended

Only as long as you view success as being the one who’s 1000000 richer than 99% of others. It’s called greed, and if it’s greed that drives you, it makes no sense to talk to you.
.

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If flipping hamburgers or hammering boards together were everybody's view of success, every country would be third world. Greed is the driving force that creates the most prosperous civilizations in which all classes are more prosperous than their corresponding classes in less capitalistic nations.

To some degree communism can be okay, but it isn't fair when lazy bums are equal with hard working people. I mean i think noone should have to be dirt poor, but I don't believe in ALL completley equal economy wise. This is just how the world goes, it will never happen.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Greed is what makes the United States the richest country in the world, which results in the most upscale poverty class in the world.

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China might take away your supremacy pretty soon, and their people earn very little money yet. They have socialism, by the way.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

we have the most successful machine in the world. Before you call what I am saying "patriotic", please recognize that it is a relevant fact to this discussion.

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See above.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

they create the things you enjoy, such as the computer and software you are using right now.

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It's just design and plans. And who actually physically creates all things that are needed for this design to work? You underappreciate their work, thinking that it's worth very little. You're delighted with those who design, but my computer's details are from the East for some reason ;) Nothing would exist if some people weren't busy making it, you know, not only in their heads (that's called fantasy).
As for design, anybody would eventually think that up, just like anybody had eventually thought up other things. It's the circumstances and later monopoly that makes you think that one country could think something up and others couldn't. That's self-delusion, at best. All technology works in the same way everywhere, it gets discovered in the same way everywhere, just because physical laws are the same everywhere.

Honestly, I don't know how you can have such a distorted view of life.
Well, I read in another thread that you can't give up on pot, and I knew enough people who did drugs to say that it's not just a time-filler. Both alcohol and drugs happen to really unhappy people. They can seem pretty happy normally, but the most honest of them acknowledge that if it was not for drugs, they wouldn't be able to cope with reality.
Why do you glorify the system that made your life so empty?

And please... you don't create masterpieces for money. You create if you love what you do.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Originally Posted by LucidMike14

To some degree communism can be okay, but it isn't fair when lazy bums are equal with hard working people. I mean i think noone should have to be dirt poor, but I don't believe in ALL completley equal economy wise. This is just how the world goes, it will never happen.

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Reposting myself:
If in capitalism the gap between the rich and the poor earnings can easily be 1 to 1000, in socialism it would be controlled to be 1 to 20 or something alike.
As a result, all the money that the rich normally take away from the society gets sorted more or less equally instead.
There’s another big difference. In socialism the people who do hard jobs get paid decently for their hard work, and those who sit on their chair in the office get paid less, because their jobs aren’t as hard.

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Originally Posted by Intended

China might take away your supremacy pretty soon, and their people earn very little money yet. They have socialism, by the way.

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I won't hold my breath waiting for that.

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Originally Posted by Intended

It's just design and plans. And who actually physically creates all things that are needed for this design to work? You underappreciate their work, thinking that it's worth very little. You're delighted with those who design, but my computer's details are from the East for some reason ;) Nothing would exist if some people weren't busy making it, you know, not only in their heads (that's called fantasy).
As for design, anybody would eventually think that up, just like anybody had eventually thought up other things. It's the circumstances and later monopoly that makes you think that one country could think something up and others couldn't. That's self-delusion, at best. All technology works in the same way everywhere, it gets discovered in the same way everywhere, just because physical laws are the same everywhere.

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Technology works that same way in Ethiopia it does in the United States? That is false. The United States leads the world in technology. If you believe otherwise, you believe incorrectly.

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Originally Posted by Intended

Honestly, I don't know how you can have such a distorted view of life.
Well, I read in another thread that you can't give up on pot, and I knew enough people who did drugs to say that it's not just a time-filler. Both alcohol and drugs happen to really unhappy people. They can seem pretty happy normally, but the most honest of them acknowledge that if it was not for drugs, they wouldn't be able to cope with reality.
Why do you glorify the system that made your life so empty?

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Why do you feel the need to get personal? Are you really unhappy or something? I think anger is directing your views. I am a drug addict because I am a thrill seeker. I also love skydiving, high speed sailing, and lucid dreaming. When I was a kid, I loved to throw water balloons at cops so they would chase me. When I was younger than that, I was obsessed with spinning and making myself dizzy and anything else I could to alter my consciousness, and I was the happiest little kid you would have ever seen. I seek rushes and love mind alteration because it is fascinating. It's just that drugs get addictive if you have the right genes for drug addiction. And I don't blame my drug problem on my country. I blame it on my repeated decisions to do drugs. Washington, Franklin, Bush, and Reagan did not create the situations that led to my problem. Try arguing this without getting personal. It makes it look like you have a very angry agenda.

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Originally Posted by Intended

And please... you don't create masterpieces for money. You create if you love what you do.

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You are generalizing. Artists, like me, create for the love of creating. Big business people, like Bill Gates and Henry Ford, create for money. Without greed, the whole world is third world. I am glad I am not a money crazed shallow person, but I am damn glad we have those people. I love the luxuries and the social economic benefits they create. You do too, whether you realize it or not.

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Originally Posted by Intended

In socialism... those who sit on their chair in the office get paid less, because their jobs aren’t as hard.

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Then they are less obsessed with making money, so they are less obsessed with doing the things that make the machine happen. Socialism weakens the strong, but doesn't strengthen the weak. It pulls the plug on the water level for the whole society. That is why our capitalism kicks the ass of every socialist civilization there has ever been.

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Technology works that same way in Ethiopia it does in the United States? That is false.

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Sorry? Ethiopia has different laws of physics?

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The United States leads the world in technology. If you believe otherwise, you believe incorrectly.

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This is not a matter of who is leading. It wouldn't prove anything. There were many countries in history that were strong, where are they now? Some of them ceased to exist, some were thrown back.
I have already wrote about Tibet as an example of a country that has no chance to lead technologically at the moment, just to show that countries have very different circumstances for technological growth, depending on their geographical position, weather, neighbours, etc. You can't judge countries by their technological growth only, but if you want to, you should take into account that you can never judge objectively due to different circumstances.

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Why do you feel the need to get personal?

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But I don't get personal! If you didn't want those things to be discussed you wouldn't openly write about them in the forum.

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I am a drug addict because I am a thrill seeker.

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I've heard it too many times to believe it.
This is just a rational explanation, it doesn't explain anything. If you seek thrill, it means there's an absence of lively experiences, which means there's something vaguely oppressive in your life.

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I seek rushes and love mind alteration because it is fascinating.

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This I've heard too many times, too. It means that your life has felt empty.

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I don't blame my drug problem on my country.

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Sure, it's your responsibility, too. I was referring to the fact that you keep defending a way of life that obviously doesn't make you entirely content. Why do you care? I wonder what reasons you have to defend this way of life, other than patriotism.
Please understand me, it's very hard to discuss things with patriotic people objectively, almost impossible. They usually refuse to listen and behave like zombies.

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Big business people, like Bill Gates and Henry Ford, create for money.

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So when Gates created MsDos, he did it just for money? I'll never believe it.
You don't put so much effort if you merely want money, it's much easier to get it in other ways than actually create something on your own. You can use others as creators.
Sorry, but your argument that greed drives creators is flawed from the start. Humandkind always tried to create, always. And money didn't even always exist. Humankind got to its current level thanks to creators of different kinds, many of them never received much money for their work.

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I love the luxuries and the social economic benefits they create. You do too, whether you realize it or not.

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No, I don't. Love for luxuries shows that you can't respect yourself for what you are, that you need to own "super things" to respect yourself through owning them.
Usually love for luxuries is artificial, though. From TV and magazines "This car is for successful people!" slogans are pouring at you, they're trying to tell you what to eat and wear to make money from your pride and greed. Eventually you begin to think that you have to have this or that to respect yourself and to seem "cool". This is all so fake and ugly.

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Socialism weakens the strong, but doesn't strengthen the weak.

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This sounds like a beautiful empty slogan.

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our capitalism kicks the ass of every socialist civilization there has ever been.

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Technologically-wise and money-wise? I can repeat myself about China. And as for other aspects, like culture, this simply isn't true.
See, you're trying to prove that capitalism is better than socialism just because presumably technological growth is more rapid in capitalistic system. But do you remember USSR that was in a very bad state and developed good space and military technologies in a record time? USSR also managed to rival your capitalistic country for a long time before succumbing to inner problems, despite being very weak after ww2 and later despite of those existing inner problems.
I wish you didn't try to prove your point using your country as an example. This starts to look like a patriotic fight instead of a discussion.

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Originally Posted by Intended

Sorry? Ethiopia has different laws of physics?

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No. Why? I thought we were talking about technological development.

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Originally Posted by Intended

This is not a matter of who is leading. It wouldn't prove anything. There were many countries in history that were strong, where are they now? Some of them ceased to exist, some were thrown back.
I have already wrote about Tibet as an example of a country that has no chance to lead technologically at the moment, just to show that countries have very different circumstances for technological growth, depending on their geographical position, weather, neighbours, etc. You can't judge countries by their technological growth only, but if you want to, you should take into account that you can never judge objectively due to different circumstances.

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Who is leading does indicate who has the best sytem currently. Also, we have the richest poverty class in the world. Those are relevant facts.

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Originally Posted by Intended

I've heard it too many times to believe it.
This is just a rational explanation, it doesn't explain anything. If you seek thrill, it means there's an absence of lively experiences, which means there's something vaguely oppressive in your life.

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That's a false assumption. You don't have enough ground to assume that all thrill seekers are depressed. Lots of happy people love to increase their thrills. If you listen to a song you love, does it mean you are seeking pleasure because you are miserable? If you watch a comedy for the purpose of laughing, does it mean you are depressed? Happy people seek thrills too.

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Originally Posted by Intended

But I don't get personal! If you didn't want those things to be discussed you wouldn't openly write about them in the forum.

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Why would you even bother trying to lie about that? You talked about my drug addiction to be insulting right after getting personal by telling me I have "such a distorted view of life". You resorted to the initiation of personal attacks, which usually indicates a second agenda and lack of confidence in one's level of argumentative substance.

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Originally Posted by Intended

This I've heard too many times, too. It means that your life has felt empty.

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You didn't come to this site because you are into lucid dreaming? Every lucid dreamer here is empty? Again, the seeking of pleasure is not proof of emptiness. You are being much more personal than you are substantive even though we could be getting along just fine if you would respectfully disagree. But that fascinates me too. It helps me understand what kind of person I am talking to.

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Originally Posted by Intended

Sure, it's your responsibility, too. I was referring to the fact that you keep defending a way of life that obviously doesn't make you entirely content. Why do you care? I wonder what reasons you have to defend this way of life, other than patriotism.
Please understand me, it's very hard to discuss things with patriotic people objectively, almost impossible. They usually refuse to listen and behave like zombies.

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More personal attacks. My statements would be objectively true no matter who said them and even if nobody said them. I have been very responsive and on target, so your point is unreasonable. I never said that all Americans are completely content. I said we have the best system in the world. If I grew up in Canada, the truth would still be the truth. And for your information, I refuse to say the Pledge of Allegience or sing our national anthem. That patriotic crap is silly. You should stop leaping to conclusions. By the way, where do you live? You sound very angry at my country, so (since you want to make this personal) my guess is that either we defeated you in a war or you have an inferiority complex because you know we will protect you.

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Originally Posted by Intended

So when Gates created MsDos, he did it just for money? I'll never believe it.
You don't put so much effort if you merely want money, it's much easier to get it in other ways than actually create something on your own. You can use others as creators.
Sorry, but your argument that greed drives creators is flawed from the start. Humandkind always tried to create, always. And money didn't even always exist. Humankind got to its current level thanks to creators of different kinds, many of them never received much money for their work.

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Money was an advancement in the system, and Bill Gates is better at making it than anybody who has ever lived. Of course Bill Gates cares about money. He likes the business game too, but he obviously loves money. Without his greed for it, what would your computer life be like right now?

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Originally Posted by Intended

No, I don't. Love for luxuries shows that you can't respect yourself for what you are, that you need to own "super things" to respect yourself through owning them.
Usually love for luxuries is artificial, though. From TV and magazines "This car is for successful people!" slogans are pouring at you, they're trying to tell you what to eat and wear to make money from your pride and greed. Eventually you begin to think that you have to have this or that to respect yourself and to seem "cool". This is all so fake and ugly.

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Are you using a computer right now? Exactly. And no matter how much you despise the way money makes things happen, it is a law of human nature that it does, and the laws have to take that into account.

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Originally Posted by Intended

This sounds like a beautiful empty slogan.

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Is that the best argument you've got? Socialism is all about weakening the strong, and it doesn't work as well as capitalism, as I have illustrated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Intended

Technologically-wise and money-wise? I can repeat myself about China. And as for other aspects, like culture, this simply isn't true.
See, you're trying to prove that capitalism is better than socialism just because presumably technological growth is more rapid in capitalistic system. But do you remember USSR that was in a very bad state and developed good space and military technologies in a record time? USSR also managed to rival your capitalistic country for a long time before succumbing to inner problems, despite being very weak after ww2 and later despite of those existing inner problems.
I wish you didn't try to prove your point using your country as an example. This starts to look like a patriotic fight instead of a discussion.

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The U.S.S.R. used its system of thievery to go into space and to wreck its own econonmy. You have a strange paranoia about your perceptions of patriotism. I live in the wealthiest civilization in history, and this started out as a conversation about intelligent economics, so I will continue to use my country as an example, no matter how hateful you are toward us. Again, I have been responsive and on-point, so your point is unreasonable, and it makes your end of the argument look like an anti-patriotic fight instead of a discussion.

I think we need to make a totaly new system. Just because the current system that is the best (capitalism) now, doesn't mean that there can be an even better system, waiting to be used.

Capitalism and communism both have there faults. While communisms sounds good, it just doesn't work. Thats the only problem with it.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I thought we were talking about technological development.

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We were talking about how any country would eventually create the same technology, because it's the same everywhere. The fact that one of them is leading is due to the circumstances, its system hasn't played the major role in it.

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Who is leading does indicate who has the best sytem currently.

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Wrong. See above.

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You don't have enough ground to assume that all thrill seekers are depressed. Lots of happy people love to increase their thrills. If you listen to a song you love, does it mean you are seeking pleasure because you are miserable? If you watch a comedy for the purpose of laughing, does it mean you are depressed? Happy people seek thrills too.

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That's different. There's a difference between those who seek thrill to forget about vague depression and those who seek thrill for unconscious pleasure. Everybody does the second thing, all the time. But if you know that drinking or smoking hurts you, if you feel bad when you don't do it and still can't give up, it speaks volumes.

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Why would you even bother trying to lie about that? You talked about my drug addiction to be insulting right after getting personal by telling me I have "such a distorted view of life".

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You're wrong, I didn't lie. I think all you write in the forums is meant for discussion, otherwise don't write these things.
As for insults, I always try to estimate what can offend people and what cannot. You sound very self-assured to the point of being arrogant sometimes, I really had no idea that "such a distored view of life" could hurt you.
Maybe I could write in a deliberately sweet way to everybody, but people don't normally appreciate it. So why waste time, I'd rather watch a person and make an estimation of how he speaks.

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More personal attacks.

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I reread what you quoted and found no personal attacks from myself. You seem to be taking everything too personally.

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By the way, where do you live? You sound very angry at my country, so (since you want to make this personal) my guess is that either we defeated you in a war or you have an inferiority complex because you know we will protect you.

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Do you want proof that you're fighting for patriotism rather than discussing?
You're writing "you sound very angry about my country", but I'm not, I'm discussing capitalism. I noticed that you like to blame people that they're angry, but I won't fall for that.

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Are you using a computer right now? Exactly.

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It isn't a luxury. Computers have become a necessity, just like telephones.

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Without his greed for it, what would your computer life be like right now?

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No big deal. Somebody else would have created a visual Operating System.

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Is that the best argument you've got? Socialism is all about weakening the strong, and it doesn't work as well as capitalism, as I have illustrated.

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I've already wrote things that could've changed your mind, you preferred to ignore them. So why must I repeat myself again, I'd rather say that it's a slogan. You repeat it without fighting my argument, so isn't is a slogan? It's true that socialism is about weakening the strong, but I failed to see you illustrate why it doesn't work as well. I illustrated why it does by meantioning examples about China and USSR, but again you ignored them.

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The U.S.S.R. used its system of thievery to go into space and to wreck its own econonmy.

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When a first man got sent in space, this technology was stolen from somebody? :)
See, a socialistic country in a bad state could do this quicker than anybody else. It makes the whole argument that technological development proves something faulty (unless you want to acknowledge that socialism is better based on this one example).
I don't understand why you argue only technologically anyway. There are things more important than technology, like culture and education that is closely linked with it. Traditions, relationship between people. "Entertainment industry" is also a mirror of these things. They're very important, they create an actual atmosphere you live in rather than mere physical comfort. Capitalism loses when it comes to these things, see, the moral values it glorifies are those that any Church would consider evil: greed is a good example.
----------

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Originally Posted by Harrycombs

I think we need to make a totaly new system. Just because the current system that is the best (capitalism) now, doesn't mean that there can be an even better system, waiting to be used.

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Socialism is supposed to be a development of capitalism. Communism is supposed to be a development of socialism. So maybe eventually all of us will naturally come to the best system.

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Capitalism and communism both have there faults. While communisms sounds good, it just doesn't work. Thats the only problem with it.

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They tried to create social-democracy as a hybrid. But it's capitalism that hands out a little free money, so it's not a real hybrid.

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Originally Posted by Intended

We were talking about how any country would eventually create the same technology, because it's the same everywhere. The fact that one of them is leading is due to the circumstances, its system hasn't played the major role in it.

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We are the business capital of the world. What a coincidence. That was my point. Saying that Ethiopians would have invented our current computer technology some day is beside the point, and I don't agree with you. Your point that the laws of physics are the same there proves nothing.

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Originally Posted by Intended

Wrong. See above.

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Wrong. See above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Intended

That's different. There's a difference between those who seek thrill to forget about vague depression and those who seek thrill for unconscious pleasure. Everybody does the second thing, all the time. But if you know that drinking or smoking hurts you, if you feel bad when you don't do it and still can't give up, it speaks volumes.

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You've suddenly changed your argument. You said that people who seek thrills are automatically depressed. Now you are saying that people who are addicted to thrills are depressed. Once a person is addicted to a drug and doing it every day, the drug is no longer a thrill, so so much for your theory. It is a matter of brain chemistry and the craving of something the brain "thinks" it needs at that point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Intended

You're wrong, I didn't lie. I think all you write in the forums is meant for discussion, otherwise don't write these things.
As for insults, I always try to estimate what can offend people and what cannot. You sound very self-assured to the point of being arrogant sometimes, I really had no idea that "such a distored view of life" could hurt you.
Maybe I could write in a deliberately sweet way to everybody, but people don't normally appreciate it. So why waste time, I'd rather watch a person and make an estimation of how he speaks.

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I never said I was hurt. I just challenged you to not be personal. You failed. Also, I didn't say my drug problem is off limits for discussion. I said that you threw it into this discussion to be insulting. That tells me what your agenda really is and puts your level of intellectual honesty into perspective.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Intended

I reread what you quoted and found no personal attacks from myself. You seem to be taking everything too personally.

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This conversation has become more about me than the pros and cons of socialism. But I enjoy this stuff, so don't assume I am not having fun with you. People like you are a riot to me. I just challenged you not to wage personal attacks, but you can't resist them. What was it you said earlier about how you can't believe I have "such a distorted view of life" before arguing with me about how empty and depressed I must be (as if that was relevant enough to prove that the other 300 million people in my country are)? And I believe you said something about how it's impossible to have discussion with people like me who are "patriotic", and maybe there was something in there about behaving like zombies? Okay, we can pretend you didn't get personal. Keep it up if you want to, though. I think this kind of shit is hilarious. The more I disprove your socialist praises, the more personal you are going to want to get, so I know what to expect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Intended

Do you want proof that you're fighting for patriotism rather than discussing?
You're writing "you sound very angry about my country", but I'm not, I'm discussing capitalism. I noticed that you like to blame people that they're angry, but I won't fall for that.

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I know. You expressed no personal anger regarding my country. We can pretend that too.

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Originally Posted by Intended

It isn't a luxury. Computers have become a necessity, just like telephones.

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You are having this computer conversation with me right now because you have to? I kind of had the idea that you were engaged in a leisure activity. I know I am.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Intended

No big deal. Somebody else would have created a visual Operating System.

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Of course. The North Koreans were within inches of it because their system has them spitting out new technology left and right. Their entire poverty shit hole is reaping the benefits of it daily.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Intended

I've already wrote things that could've changed your mind, you preferred to ignore them. So why must I repeat myself again, I'd rather say that it's a slogan. You repeat it without fighting my argument, so isn't is a slogan? It's true that socialism is about weakening the strong, but I failed to see you illustrate why it doesn't work as well. I illustrated why it does by meantioning examples about China and USSR, but again you ignored them.

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They would have changed my mind if they were logical. I talked about both the U.S.S.R. and China, so stop lying. China is never going to catch us, and the Soviet Union crashed out of existence. Please tell me about the huge corporations and their pioneering technology in China and the Soviet Union. How's the Soviet Union coming along? Are the Chinese people feeling financially stable yet? I hear their poverty class is much better off than ours. I also don't see a problem with the amount of power their government has over the people, like busting into their houses and giving women abortions against their wills. More power to the government!!! Less power to the people!!!

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Originally Posted by Intended

When a first man got sent in space, this technology was stolen from somebody? :)
See, a socialistic country in a bad state could do this quicker than anybody else. It makes the whole argument that technological development proves something faulty (unless you want to acknowledge that socialism is better based on this one example).
I don't understand why you argue only technologically anyway. There are things more important than technology, like culture and education that is closely linked with it. Traditions, relationship between people. "Entertainment industry" is also a mirror of these things. They're very important, they create an actual atmosphere you live in rather than mere physical comfort. Capitalism loses when it comes to these things, see, the moral values it glorifies are those that any Church would consider evil: greed is a good example.

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I already told you that stealing from that many people got them quickly into space and a temporarily good military. But the government collapsed. Remember? Besides, I am talking primarily about private sector technology. That is what creates the wealth, along with the will to sell the technology and other things. Big business creates wealth, and advancing technology is a major part of the formula. That is my point. And our enterainment industry is by far the best in the world. It is also the most successful and job and wealth creating. I don't care if the church considers greed evil. I am an atheist, and I have told you all about how greed benefits civilizations greatly.

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Originally Posted by Intended

Socialism is supposed to be a development of capitalism. Communism is supposed to be a development of socialism. So maybe eventually all of us will naturally come to the best system.

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The U.S.S.R. wasn't so fortunate, for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Intended

They tried to create social-democracy as a hybrid. But it's capitalism that hands out a little free money, so it's not a real hybrid.

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Tried. But we tried to create a democratic-republic of capitalism, and it has been kicking ass for a long time. You said in another thread how much you want to fight poverty and hunger, right? We are the best at it, so spread the word on how we do things.

Where do you live?

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Saying that Ethiopians would have invented our current computer technology some day is beside the point, and I don't agree with you.

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Again you ignore what I wrote about circumstances.

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Once a person is addicted to a drug and doing it every day, the drug is no longer a thrill, so so much for your theory.

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Not true. It’s more thrill than ever, if you can’t live without it.

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I said that you threw it into this discussion to be insulting.

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No, just to make you wonder about your reasons for defending your world so strongly.

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I believe you said something about how it's impossible to have discussion with people like me who are "patriotic", and maybe there was something in there about behaving like zombies?

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You think that whatever people say they always talk about you?
I didn’t say “with people like you”, I was talking of certain type of people and my view of them. By saying that I was talking of you, you acknowledge that you consider yourself one of them.

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You are having this computer conversation with me right now because you have to?

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You talk on the phone because you have to? You can write letters.

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The North Koreans were within inches of it because their system has them spitting out new technology left and right.

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It’s late to create anything now because of monopoly. Look at Unix systems, they aren’t too popular for normal users. Programs and stuff is made for Windows, some of it wouldn’t work with Unix. Anybody who created a system first and spread it very wide would be able to gain this kind of monopoly.

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I talked about both the U.S.S.R. and China, so stop lying. China is never going to catch us, and the Soviet Union crashed out of existence.

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You talk as if you brush everything off. China is going to catch up with you soon, it’s a known fact, and you can’t brush it off. As for Soviet Union, I was talking of its past, saying it doesn’t exist is irrelevant.

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More power to the government!!! Less power to the people!!!

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You’re changing the topic, we weren’t discussing democracy.

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And our enterainment industry is by far the best in the world.

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I disagree. Things like culture or entertainment will always seem the best to those to whose country they belong to, because they aren’t familiar with the other. I’m not surprised that you consider yours best, but it’s a purely subjective point of view that has nothing to do with reality.

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I already told you that stealing from that many people got them quickly into space and a temporarily good military. But the government collapsed.

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It wasn’t stealing, it was socialism. So you sort of acknowledge that it was socialism that got them quickly into space, etc. Good.
The government collapsed for other reasons, though: as far as I know, prices for oil had much to do with it, as well as internal unease.

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I don't care if the church considers greed evil. I am an atheist, and I have told you all about how greed benefits civilizations greatly.

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If I wrote that by moral rules it’s evil you’d probably laugh, so I wrote the Church. Ok, now I write that by moral rules greed is ugly. You can’t disagree with that.

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Where do you live?

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As I said, I have a rule, if you don't want to discuss something don't write about it. This thread is not about my country, there's no reason to discuss it.

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The U.S.S.R. wasn't so fortunate, for some reason.

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It’s hardly possible for socialism to develop to communism unless all contries in the world try to do it at once. You can’t normally have no money at all in one country. Maybe in a very distant future.

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You said in another thread how much you want to fight poverty and hunger, right? We are the best at it, so spread the word on how we do things.

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You create poverty and hunger in other countries by killing people and making others run away, though. As for internal fight against poverty, every country is having it with various sucess, depending on its current wealth. Many things come into play, just as in case of Ethiopian "technology", by far not only the system.

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Originally Posted by Intended

Again you ignore what I wrote about circumstances.

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Disagreeing is ignoring?

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Originally Posted by Intended

Not true. It’s more thrill than ever, if you can’t live without it.

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I know from being a counsellor and from being a drug addict that your statement is false. A little bit of research would reveal the truth to you. As the obsession increases, the thrill diminishes, and the experience becomes pure maintenance. This isn't even subject to argument.

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Originally Posted by Intended

No, just to make you wonder about your reasons for defending your world so strongly.

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One person's drug addiction disproves the entire theory of capitalism? I don't think you were really arguing that because you believed it, but only you know for sure.

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Originally Posted by Intended

It’s late to create anything now because of monopoly. Look at Unix systems, they aren’t too popular for normal users. Programs and stuff is made for Windows, some of it wouldn’t work with Unix. Anybody who created a system first and spread it very wide would be able to gain this kind of monopoly.

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You were talking about people with labels that you had previously given me. Do you really want to argue otherwise?

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Originally Posted by Intended

You talk on the phone because you have to? You can write letters.

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So we both agree that it's not a necessity? Yes, it is often a luxury and a leisure activity.

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Originally Posted by Intended

It’s late to create anything now because of monopoly. Look at Unix systems, they aren’t too popular for normal users. Programs and stuff is made for Windows, some of it wouldn’t work with Unix. Anybody who created a system first and spread it very wide would be able to gain this kind of monopoly.

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Creation is over now in the United States? Sit back and watch it not be. But watch how much creation doesn't happen in North Korea.

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Originally Posted by Intended

You talk as if you brush everything off. China is going to catch up with you soon, it’s a known fact, and you can’t brush it off. As for Soviet Union, I was talking of its past, saying it doesn’t exist is irrelevant.

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The Soviet Union doesn't exist because its sytem was a failure. And you didn't tell me about the major corporations of China and their pioneering technology. You also didn't tell me why our poverty class is a big aristocracy compared to what they have. And sit back and watch China never have our level of technological advancement, wealth, or entertainment industry (which you said is an important aspect of a nation). Plus, look at what Chinese citizens have to endure from their government's level of power over them. China sucks.

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Originally Posted by Intended

You’re changing the topic, we weren’t discussing democracy.

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We were discussing socialism and communism, which are inferior systems compared to democracy in many ways, such as the level of power the government has over its people.

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Originally Posted by Intended

I disagree. Things like culture or entertainment will always seem the best to those to whose country they belong to, because they aren’t familiar with the other. I’m not surprised that you consider yours best, but it’s a purely subjective point of view that has nothing to do with reality.

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Man, people all over the world and in humongous numbers love our movies, musical acts, and television shows more than that of the corresponding entertainment from any other country. I know you know that's true. Tell me about the greatest musical acts and movies of China and how their popularity compares to the biggest from the United States. Look in the Guiness Book of World Records for the biggest movies and musical acts in history, and you will see that we have the movies and most of the music, while Britain has a lot of the music. Our television shows are enormous worldwide too. Do you really want to argue about this?

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Originally Posted by Intended

It wasn’t stealing, it was socialism. So you sort of acknowledge that it was socialism that got them quickly into space, etc. Good.
The government collapsed for other reasons, though: as far as I know, prices for oil had much to do with it, as well as internal unease.

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Socialism and communism are both forms of stealing. The Soviet Union's business was pathetic, and that had a lot to do with why they collapsed. Of course rotten economics will screw with the price of everything. It will also create internal unease. It will do many things that are terrible.

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Originally Posted by Intended

If I wrote that by moral rules it’s evil you’d probably laugh, so I wrote the Church. Ok, now I write that by moral rules greed is ugly. You can’t disagree with that.

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Creating an economic system for a nation and leaving greed out of the equation is immoral, as I have illustrated. Greed is a great thing for civilization, as I have illustrated. And I am not going to believe for two seconds that you are above greed.

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Originally Posted by Intended

As I said, I have a rule, if you don't want to discuss something don't write about it. This thread is not about my country, there's no reason to discuss it.

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We can discuss where you live. For one thing, I would like to talk about where you live and how it affects your view of the United States. Typing one or two words would have been much simpler than your long explanation for why you plead our 5th Amendment on where you live. Are you ashamed of where you live?

Do you live in Canada?

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Originally Posted by Intended

It’s hardly possible for socialism to develop to communism unless all contries in the world try to do it at once. You can’t normally have no money at all in one country. Maybe in a very distant future.

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That's a very extreme and unrealistic provision you have suddenly thrown into this. I don't think socialism could work under any conditions that will ever exist in our world, but if I agreed with your point, it would further my argument that socialism sucks.

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Originally Posted by Intended

You create poverty and hunger in other countries by killing people and making others run away, though. As for internal fight against poverty, every country is having it with various sucess, depending on its current wealth. Many things come into play, just as in case of Ethiopian "technology", by far not only the system.

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But guess who is doing the best at controlling its own poverty. That is a very important fact to consider in this. And we lead the world in liberation and foreign aid, among other things. It is because capitalism is such a powerful system against poverty.

Give me some examples of where socialism or communism has controlled poverty on the level that we do. Tell me about the most successful socialist and communist nations in history.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Disagreeing is ignoring?

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Disagreeing isn't disproval, it's ignoring.

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As the obsession increases, the thrill diminishes, and the experience becomes pure maintenance. This isn't even subject to argument.

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As the thrill diminishes, you need more to get to the same level of thrill.

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One person's drug addiction disproves the entire theory of capitalism? I don't think you were really arguing that because you believed it, but only you know for sure.

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I just wonder why you care to defend the society you live in. Look, there's nobody else arguing in the thread :)

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Yes, it is often a luxury and a leisure activity.

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Luxury is rare, but almost everybody has a computer now. Times when it was a luxury are gone.

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Creation is over now in the United States? Sit back and watch it not be. But watch how much creation doesn't happen in North Korea.

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I don't know why you said this, it wasn't related to what I wrote. I explained why Korea or any other country isn't creating a new Operating System. And this, sorry, looks like a patriotic rave.

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The Soviet Union doesn't exist because its sytem was a failure.

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Sorry, were you brainwashed during the Cold war? Oil prices dropped down drastically.

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you didn't tell me about the major corporations of China and their pioneering technology.

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China has no need to waste time to create technology if it already exists. Wait.

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You also didn't tell me why our poverty class is a big aristocracy compared to what they have.

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You should've known! They did it to artificially keep low prices for their production. That's what permitted China to become rich, and what will happen later to their people we'll see.

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And sit back and watch China never have our level of technological advancement, wealth, or entertainment industry (which you said is an important aspect of a nation).

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Sorry, a patriotic rave again. Look at "sit back and watch China never have our level of". This doesn't resemble a discussion...

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We were discussing socialism and communism, which are inferior systems compared to democracy in many ways, such as the level of power the government has over its people.

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Socialism is an economical system, democracy is not. These are different things, not related to each other. There's no reason for socialism to be autho\tota\litarian, just as there's no reason for capitalism to be democratical.

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Man, people all over the world and in humongous numbers love our movies, musical acts, and television shows more than that of the corresponding entertainment from any other country. I know you know that's true.

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It means nothing, and it's quite normal. The product gets wide-spread if its quantities by far surpass its quantities in other countries.

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Tell me about the greatest musical acts and movies of China and how their popularity compares to the biggest from the United States.

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Chinese culture is one of the best in this world, because it's well-preserved. Did you know that East is very different from the West? Have you heard of enormous popularity of Eastern thought in other countries? Of things like buddhism, taoism, yoga, tai-chi, qi-gong? Well, if culture is only movies for you...
Again, if you think that only something acknowledged on international level can be called "best", that's false. Internationality dissipates cultures, because people who can't understand an alien culture will distort it.
As for movies, think what kind of propaganda movies carry. You know that movies feel different in different countries, right? That's because they carry different "message". Just an example: you don't call movies that appeal to low instincts masterpieces, although they can be very popular.
Education has a lot to do with culture, too.
But I don't wish to discuss culture with you, you've lost the cultural argument from the start by your own behaviour. Look at this:

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China sucks.

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What kind of educated person can say that the whole country "sucks"?

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The Soviet Union's business was pathetic, and that had a lot to do with why they collapsed. Of course rotten economics will screw with the price of everything.

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It was Saudi Arabia and United Arabic Emirates that screwed the prices for oil. You shouldn't speak of something you have no idea about.

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Creating an economic system for a nation and leaving greed out of the equation is immoral, as I have illustrated. Greed is a great thing for civilization, as I have illustrated. And I am not going to believe for two seconds that you are above greed.

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To be ungreedy is immoral? Great. If you can't even believe that there are ungreedy people, I feel sorry for you. I know a lot of such people, just as well as I know greedy people.

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We can discuss where you live. For one thing, I would like to talk about where you live and how it affects your view of the United States. Typing one or two words would have been much simpler than your long explanation for why you plead our 5th Amendment on where you live. Are you ashamed of where you live?

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No, thanx, we've discussed two countries already, and you showed your discussing abilities. You revealed no knowledge about them and even said "China sucks" about China. I have no desire to discuss my country with someone who'll distort everything about it.

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That's a very extreme and unrealistic provision you have suddenly thrown into this.

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That's not me. That was Karl Marx if I'm not mistaken... :)
Everything that I said about how capitalism turns into socialism and turns into communism is not my theory, as well as how communism can't happen only in one country. I'm not smart enough to make such assumptions on my own.

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I don't think socialism could work under any conditions that will ever exist in our world

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Proof, please.

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But guess who is doing the best at controlling its own poverty. That is a very important fact to consider in this. And we lead the world in liberation and foreign aid, among other things.

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By liberation and foreign aid do you mean killing people and making others poor to get richer yourself? Sure, a good cover in order to control internal poverty. Now I could jump to an interesting conclusion and say that a powerful capitalism always turns into faschism.

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Give me some examples of where socialism or communism has controlled poverty on the level that we do. Tell me about the most successful socialist and communist nations in history.

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Communism has never existed, and you mention it. It shows you still can't understand what it is even though I posted about it, and I must try to prove something to you?

I understand why you aren't posting anything anymore. And really, I agree.
I feel there's no point in talking further.
Let's just conclude. Sorry, but you showed that you hardly understand what this thread is about:
1) you compared socialism and democracy, although democracy isn't an economical system and they can't be compared at all (you said "socialism is inferiour to democracy", which sounds absurd), i.e. you don't know what these things are;
2) you asked to give you examples of existing socialistic or communistic successful countries, although communism never existed, which means you don't know what communism is;
3) you aren't aware of facts about China and USSR, and still you tried to argue against these countries.

You've already lost argument anyway:
Let me remind,
Your argument was that technological advance proves that the economical system of the most economically successful country is better. I reminded you that socialistic USSR sent the first man into space. Let me also remind you that they were not industrialized until socialism came, which means the full industrialization happened and the first man got sent into space in about 40 years overall. If you add ww2 to it, which dealt huge damage to the country, you can shorten this time: the war ended in 1945, the first man got into space in 1961. (Full industrialization took other countries about 100 years). I also took China as example, this country is predicted to become the most powerful country soon. They chose renewed reforms in 1979, 28 years from now. So using your own technologically based argument now, I can say that socialism is the best economical system.
But I don't think you can only look at technology while deciding such things, industrialization wasn't always present in history. People need many other things apart from technology.
I won this technological argument, now if you still want to argue that capitalism is better you cannot do it based on technological advance.

Both of you are right. This conversation has become very diluted. There is one main point.

Capitalism is ever-evolving. It changes with the will of the people. The light-speed US mobilization of WW2, ending the great depression is a perfect example. And for the US, we have a GREAT social structure. The majority of Americans are middle class.

Communism is too structured. It cannot change with the times. Combine that with the neglect of human nature, and you get the Soviet Union. Well, the "former" Soviet Union.

And for future reference, China is NOT communist anymore. They have switched to a more capitalist approach, and that is why they are catching up so fast.

Capitalism is great, and every country that uses it becomes great. Germany came from ashes with a wall down the middle of it, to greatness. I contribute that to capitalism.

I still cant understand why some people are so preoccupied with making everybody else happy rather than making themselves happy. Is it really about making everyone equal? To me the freedom to do-or-die is better than no freedom.

Intended, I have a life outside of this website, so I didn't post here yesterday. Stop jumping to conclusions. That is about all you have done in our conversation. I am bored out of my mind with responding to your 30 bits at a time threads, and this conversation has gotten very repetitive and is little more than a game of chasing your rationalizations. For example, your first sentence from two posts ago...

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Originally Posted by Intended

Disagreeing isn't disproval, it's ignoring.

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Disproving involves disagreeing. See, this conversations has gotten so absurd it's not even worth getting that much more into. Then you told me about more of your assumptions about drug addiction. You are arguing with somebody who has been through it. Have you even thought about that? When a drug addict relapses, the first high is the best high he has until he recovers and then relapses again. That first high is never reached during the binge that follows the relapse, and the effects of the drug become a matter of maintenance and very little pleasure, if any. The rest of your post is like that, and it is just silly. I'll make a few summary points.

Communism has been tried to the extent that anybody would even dare try it, and it has been a failure 100% of the time. The same goes for socialism. But capitalism kicks ass and, most relevant to this conversation, controls poverty better than any other economic system. Do you really think it is a coincidence that the United States is the wealthiest civilization in history? With democracy comes capitalism. When it comes down to it, people generally don't want the government to rob the shit out of them. Democracy is not the opposite of socialism, but the capitalism that tends to come with it is. The United States is a democratic republic, and again, we have the best system in the history of the world. Your rationalizations like, "Uh, but Taoism came from China and it's interesting," don't counter that point. Calling me patriotic doesn't counter the point either. When a socialist or communist country EVER has a system that fights poverty better than our system fights it, especially one that keeps resulting in luxuries you enjoy (such as computer technology, obviously) let me know. You admit that it has not happened yet. Also, let me know about some awesome Chinese movies and musical acts if there ever are any. I didn't see any in the list I requested. That won't happen because China sucks. So until then, my real world facts stand and your speculations have not been proven. Have fun in the country you are too ashamed of to name. :)

Half/Dreaming,

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I still cant understand why some people are so preoccupied with making everybody else happy rather than making themselves happy.

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If nobody should care for making everybody happy, than why should anybody care for making you happy?
All the rest were just cliches, you'd have to actually study these things to understand why they're wrong.

Universal Mind, you've showed your ignorance. Sorry, but I have no desire to waste time and discuss such things with someone who only caught their names in one-sided propaganda and keeps repeating propaganda sentences without listening to you.
That's just a little proof:

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Communism has been tried to the extent that anybody would even dare try it, and it has been a failure 100% of the time. The same goes for socialism.

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How many times do I have to say, communism never existed on this Earth?
It's just one of the facts you can't understand (because of being too brainwashed?) even though I've said it already. And they're vital, you can't discuss such topics if you have no idea of them and how they function. Sorry, but it's not my idea to argue with ignorant people full of propaganda cliches. A bit rude, perhaps, but such is the sad truth.

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The United States is a democratic republic, and again, we have the best system in the history of the world.

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this is depressing as hell...hopefully its not true. All this history and this is the best we can do? fuck.

anyways I really don't like communism or capitalism.

"All the ideology makers (Smith, Marx etc etc) have serious differences over how to divvy up the spoils of power. Just as clearly, none of them have any objection to power as such and all of them want to keep us working. "

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Originally Posted by Intended

Universal Mind, you've showed your ignorance. Sorry, but I have no desire to waste time and discuss such things with someone who only caught their names in one-sided propaganda and keeps repeating propaganda sentences without listening to you.
That's just a little proof:

How many times do I have to say, communism never existed on this Earth?
It's just one of the facts you can't understand (because of being too brainwashed?) even though I've said it already. And they're vital, you can't discuss such topics if you have no idea of them and how they function. Sorry, but it's not my idea to argue with ignorant people full of propaganda cliches. A bit rude, perhaps, but such is the sad truth.

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I repeat what is not even close to being successfully countered. So I will repeat it again. The United States has the greatest system in history. Our capitalism, which results from our democratic-republic system, fights poverty better than any other system there has ever been. And you can't say that China, the U.S.S.R., Cuba, North Vietnam, North Korea, and Eastern Europe were never communist to any extent. I guess you know and the rest of the world doesn't. If it were true that communism has never existed on any level, might it be because it is such a dumbass idea? And not one socialist country has come even close to the success of our system. I know you despise that fact, but your despising doesn't make it not a fact. And like I said, let me know some day when there is a real world national example of the major success of communism or socialism. Until then, I will disagree with your speculations regarding how there can be large scale incentive without greed.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I repeat what is not even close to being successfully countered. So I will repeat it again. The United States has the greatest system in history. Our capitalism, which results from our democratic-republic system, fights poverty better than any other system there has ever been. And you can't say that China, the U.S.S.R., Cuba, North Vietnam, North Korea, and Eastern Europe were never communist to any extent. I guess you know and the rest of the world doesn't. If it were true that communism has never existed on any level, might it be because it is such a dumbass idea? And not one socialist country has come even close to the success of our system. I know you despise that fact, but your despising doesn't make it not a fact. And like I said, let me know some day when there is a real world national example of the major success of communism or socialism. Until then, I will disagree with your speculations regarding how there can be large scale incentive without greed.

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Intended will always label what you say as "propaganda". I dont know why, because i dont see posters on the side of the road high-lighting the benefits of capitalism.

Intended, i dont understand your arguments. History has proven that communism doesnt work, just as history has proven capitalism works. I've seen people in our soup kitchens with cell phones. Im pretty sure you like communism because, in theory, it supports its people better. You have failed to point out how this will EVER work.

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Intended will always label what you say as "propaganda". I dont know why, because i dont see posters on the side of the road high-lighting the benefits of capitalism.

Intended, i dont understand your arguments. History has proven that communism doesnt work, just as history has proven capitalism works. I've seen people in our soup kitchens with cell phones. Im pretty sure you like communism because, in theory, it supports its people better. You have failed to point out how this will EVER work.

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What's interesting is that after all of those long posts, he never really explained the mechanics of how communism or socialism could work. We explained the mechanics of how capitalism works well and has in fact worked very well. He said that communism has never existed and called me patriotic a hundred times along with some other intended insults, but he never did explain the details of how communism or socialism could possibly work. As for my being "patriotic", it doesn't matter if I wear American flag underwear, sing the American national anthem every time I take a shower, and have American flag draped shrines to George Washington and George Patton. It wouldn't negate the fact that capitalism is a proven success and socialism is a proven failure. If he wants to say that communism has never existed, he still can't negate the fact that it has not been proven to be a success. Capitalism has proven to be a success.

I want to know what draws people to communism or socialism. Is it fear of not being able to earn money? Inability to control their own life? I have no clue, but to me, leaving my fate up to me seems better than being issued a government check.

Isnt capitalism awesome? Dude, if i work extra hours, and at the end of the week i can afford a new addition to my XBOX 360 collection. If i save up for a few weeks, i can put a freegin DVD player in my car, AND IVE DONE IT!! Im pretty sure extra hard work in a communist society would not permit this. So really, there is no reason to work OT in communism, so productivity is stagnant.

Thats what makes capitalism so awesome. Greed. We directly see the results of hard work. Capitalism works with human nature for the greater good, while communism works against it. Again, this is proven.

What a silly argument, a bunch of anti-commies arguing with some staunch communists.

Lets look at it proeprly and give some substance to our opinions.
First of all dont keep going on about the failures of Communism in the past, as these ahve not been communism.
Stalinism in the USSR, and any country under its control during that time was therefore part of the Stalinist Soviet Bloc.
Cuba is not true Marxism, its an authotarian, Soviet Bloc style state.
China is tied up in Chinese ideologies, not Communism as advocated by Marx and later adapted by Lenin.

Lassiez-Faire capitalism and communism are both just as bad as eachother.
Socialism is the key.
Basically whats on the left of the centre.

What the democrats used to stand for in the US.
What Labour used to stand for over here.
Old school British socialism is what reukts in the NHS, a service that no other country in the world can compare to.
A rather great educational system. Obviously with Tony Blair and the birth of New Labour this has all changed.
But it was there before.

Captialism is one of the greatest evils this world has ever produced, and communism (as a theory) one of the most beautiful ideas, which is why it attracts so many idealistic people. But ive come to realise Utopia is not possible.

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Originally Posted by imran_p

What a silly argument, a bunch of anti-commies arguing with some staunch communists.

Lets look at it proeprly and give some substance to our opinions.
First of all dont keep going on about the failures of Communism in the past, as these ahve not been communism.
Stalinism in the USSR, and any country under its control during that time was therefore part of the Stalinist Soviet Bloc.
Cuba is not true Marxism, its an authotarian, Soviet Bloc style state.
China is tied up in Chinese ideologies, not Communism as advocated by Marx and later adapted by Lenin.

Lassiez-Faire capitalism and communism are both just as bad as eachother.
Socialism is the key.
Basically whats on the left of the centre.

What the democrats used to stand for in the US.
What Labour used to stand for over here.
Old school British socialism is what reukts in the NHS, a service that no other country in the world can compare to.
A rather great educational system. Obviously with Tony Blair and the birth of New Labour this has all changed.
But it was there before.

Captialism is one of the greatest evils this world has ever produced, and communism (as a theory) one of the most beautiful ideas, which is why it attracts so many idealistic people. But ive come to realise Utopia is not possible.

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Let me get this straight. Britain as a former socialist nation fought poverty better than the current U.S. system? Nope. Britain has a great capitalist system today, but it could be even more capitalistic and therefore much better. You can't give me an example of where a socialist system produced homeless people as fat as the ones the U.S. has now or a poverty class with the relatively luxurious lifestyles our poor people have. And I am still not seeing anything from your side in this discussion about the mechanics of how socialism or communism can result in the hard work or anything else that creates the extreme wealth everyone benefits from in nations. Can you explain the details of it? Also, read the last few sentences of Half/Dreaming's last post and tell me your counterarguments to them. Disagreement with those points is something I have yet to understand. Communism and socialism are both systems that result in a whole lot of half ass efforts on the parts of workers and therefore do not create national wealth like capitalism does. You obviously disagree with that point, so please explain the details of why. Keep in mind how fat our "poor" people are and how much they love their DVD players and X Boxes.

Its shame that your thinking on such a domestic scale, Capitalism is one country causes poverty in another.
US capitalism relies on the so called "free" market. When countries try to nationalise there resources, this equals a reduction in the size of the free market. The Us don't like that, and we are left with a superpower rampaging around the world "liberating".
Did it to Iran
Did it to Iraq
Did it to Congo


I am in no way a communist, but i am however anti-capitalist.
I dont truely believe Marx was a Marxist. He did not explain really how the sytem of communism would work, he merely explained the great injustice that capitalism is. I agree with his summation that capitalism is indeed a robbery system.
The reason : The Labour Theory of Value.
I dont have the time or the inclination to explain such a lengthy theory
however, if you ahve time to read
http://www.marxism.org.uk/pack/economics.html

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Originally Posted by imran_p

Its shame that your thinking on such a domestic scale, Capitalism is one country causes poverty in another.
US capitalism relies on the so called "free" market. When countries try to nationalise there resources, this equals a reduction in the size of the free market. The Us don't like that, and we are left with a superpower rampaging around the world "liberating".
Did it to Iran
Did it to Iraq
Did it to Congo


I am in no way a communist, but i am however anti-capitalist.
I dont truely believe Marx was a Marxist. He did not explain really how the sytem of communism would work, he merely explained the great injustice that capitalism is. I agree with his summation that capitalism is indeed a robbery system.
The reason : The Labour Theory of Value.
I dont have the time or the inclination to explain such a lengthy theory
however, if you ahve time to read
http://www.marxism.org.uk/pack/economics.html

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Our capitalism screws other countries? Maybe, maybe not. Do you have any idea how much America out-sources? We give jobs to thousands of japanese, chinese, indians, etc. in the name of saving money. Those people take those jobs because they pay better than alternative jobs, or because there are no other jobs available. What about American tourism? Some countries only exist because our people like pretty flowers and remote beaches. Then we buy foreign goods and take them home. No, i would say America plays a huge part in supporting the world.

Corporations are awesome. They became corporations because they kick ass at what they do. They are better than everybody else.

Jealosy of the rich is what draws people to communism. I guess some people cant handle being inferior. Capitalism is THE BEST. I dont care if it is your definition of "evil". Capitalism created a land of opportunity. We have Mexicans tripping over their shoe laces to get into the land of opportunity.

I am not an American and I like socialism (or at least some aspects of it), but not communism. For me its the difference between supporting people and controlling people. Human nature inevitablely means that any sort of control would be abused as we have seen in very communist country so far.

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Originally Posted by Sybot

I am not an American and I like socialism (or at least some aspects of it), but not communism. For me its the difference between supporting people and controlling people. Human nature inevitablely means that any sort of control would be abused as we have seen in very communist country so far.

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You misaunderstand what communism is and you seem to carry negative connotations installed by subtle anti-propaganda all over TV, newspapars and books. Sorry for being this straight :)
Communism is supposed to be a system of total justice so that even money wouldn't be necessary. And that means, there can be no tyranny! No country has been communistic so far, it isn't possible in modern world. Some parties call themselves communistic: it doesn't mean they're going to create communism at once, it merely means that it is their distant goal. Communism is supposed to be a development of socialism, so all these parties are actually socialistic.

Half/Dreaming

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We give jobs to thousands of japanese, chinese, indians, etc. in the name of saving money. Those people take those jobs because they pay better than alternative jobs, or because there are no other jobs available.

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All these countries -- Japan, China, India, etc -- suffer from their inhabitants leaving them. Less people = less workers = less production. Every country's government fights hard against this.

I'd like to remind you what awards of socialism people in capitalistic countries have.
Free education of excellent quality? Free medicine? The amount of jobless people a zero? Nobody at all in the whole country dying from hunger? No homeless people? No awfully fat people?:) People with high moral values? Quicker industry development? Any immunity to total zombification by the mass-media? Self-dependant production of goods that warranties that in hard times you won't die out in a week?
What IS the US that you take as an example producing? Look around, most of the products are shipped in. You can say that computers are produced in the US, but it isn't true, they're getting physically made in China or Taiwan. You depend on others in everything. If something happens there'll be a lack of something in the country... and this can be paralyzing or even deadly for millions of lives. Things are cheaper in countries like China, so the government prefers to import almost everything rather than care for its own factories, etc. So factories are ruined. All the physical production system is ruined. This is money-saving for the government, of course, but it's a great danger to the country. The country wouldn't survive a month if it became unable to import from other countries: either by being engaged in a hard war, or by dollar losing its world money value.
A long hard war can be avoided nowadays, but if the dollar value collapses, the US will collapse! How much more insecure the economical system can be?

If you're able to step back from the picture given by the single-voiced mass-media, try to...
What about this?;)
Right now the government is trying to ensure they could do something in case the dollar drops (since sooner or later it will happen). So they're attacking Iraq for oil, trying to impose their influence on Venezuela (oil again, etc.) and any other country that can be useful as a donator of goods. They're using a terrorism threat to install their military bases all over the globe to gain military monopoly. They're actually provoking more anti-terrorist hysteria on purpose, to have a reason to gain influence... Look at how they want to separate a Muslim Kosovo, which will effectively create an agressive Muslim state in Europe!
It's logical that a country that produces nothing and lives off the value of "paper", needs to expand and make other countries its unofficial colonies. It needs to steal all you eat and comsume from somewhere, because you don't produce it...
Now that the dollar is losing its value, it makes the US ever more aggressive towards other countries. I won't be surprised to hear about new horrible terrorist acts in the US soon: it's great to have people scared and have them morally justify criminal aggression of their own government towards other "terroristic" countries. We can also wait for new attempts to install military bases in Europe and wherever else, to have the governments of other countries scared of the US. We can await for new mass murders in the name of the "exported democracy", which will provide the US with new colonies of goods. We can await for more aggressive attempts at "globalization", which actually means stealing national culture and destroying borders of other countries, making them mere resource countries for just one country.

So what proves that capitalism is better than socialism? Capitalism that is unable to sustain itself and has to rob all others.

Intended, your system would require way too much structure. You are talking about the government taking control of every aspect of life. It could potentially lead to this utopian society, but why would you want it? That sounds dull and boring. No obstacles to overcome? No problems to work out? No fat people to protect the quarterbacks? It sounds to me like you are trying to purify humanity. Eliminate our differences.

I fully believe in survival of the fittest. America is the best at what it does. I still dont know if you deny this or just refuse to accept it. And i dont know what you're talking about. America was semi-isolationist, and it sustained itself just fine without "stealing" from other countries. Please, explain this "robbing" that we are doing. It seems to me like our money supports the world.

Capitalism may be the most intelligent system of economocis, but that doenst matter. Its a robbery system and is downright immoral. Its merely a question of wether we believe in success or equality.
I vouch for the latter.
Obviously you do not.

Read the link explaining The Labour Theory of Value, and counter it. Capitalism robs the workers, its no better than the system employed in fuedal times. Its proved on a page.

Imran

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Originally Posted by imran_p

Capitalism may be the most intelligent system of economocis, but that doenst matter. Its a robbery system and is downright immoral. Its merely a question of wether we believe in success or equality.
I vouch for the latter.
Obviously you do not.

Read the link explaining The Labour Theory of Value, and counter it. Capitalism robs the workers, its no better than the system employed in fuedal times. Its proved on a page.

Imran

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You come off sounding pretty smug when you portray me as someone who hates equality. I believe in success and equality, and that it should be left up to me and not the gov.

i find the idea of communism to be the one of the most unattractive economic ideas to me. i know that if i were to be in a communist state i would become stagnant and produce nothing. to me there is nothing to shoot for when you are living in a commune. i can just imagine that as soon as country switches to communism there would be no more advancements or new ideas. i know that view is flawed, but i just can't shake that idea.


in short, i'm not necessarily a pro-capitalist but i am for sure an anti-communist.

We made Japan more capitalist after World War II, and now their economy kicks ass. China has become more capitalistic, and their economy is improving as a result. The countries that lose citizens to capitalist countries are countries that are too socialist or communist to have the good economies that keep people. Countries keep losing their citizens to the United States because our economy is so good. Those countries need to become more capitalistic.

I am still not seeing anybody say how socialism or communism can create the hard work or any proposed factor that results in strong economic stimulation that makes a country prosper enough to make good wealth conditions for the masses. I don't see how it is supposed to happen. Greed creates economic stimulation for the nation as a whole, and it lifts the level for the entire nation. Half ass attitudes in government guarantee situations don't seem to be too effective. Can somebody please finally explain what is supposed to make the big machine work so effectively in a socialist or communist nation? What is it that supposedly does that better than greed?

Also, I would still like for somebody to give me an example of where communism or socialism has ever worked. Two of you have said that communism has never existed. Then what in the world is your explanation for why you think it would be so effective? At least tell me about a socialist nation that has had an incredible economy. Is there one that has had a majorly humongous illegal immigration problem?

But capitalism breeds inequality, surely you can see that.
In a socialist state, regardless of what family you are born into and what standing of education you receive you can do well.
Surely you are valuing the ability to become succesful and wealthy above the equality of all?

Imran

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Originally Posted by imran_p

But capitalism breeds inequality, surely you can see that.
In a socialist state, regardless of what family you are born into and what standing of education you receive you can do well.
Surely you are valuing the ability to become succesful and wealthy above the equality of all?

Imran

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No, I said that capitalism raises the level for everybody, despite the fact that some people are raised higher than others. All innocent people have the same value in terms of humanity, but not in terms of economic standing. Some people are worth more money than others. That is a fact of nature, and trying to force that fact out of existence is unnatural, counterproductive, and dangerous. It is like saying everybody in a class should be given a test where all of the grades will be averaged and every person in the class will receive that average. The class is not going to work as hard in that situation. Some students do better than others, and trying to force equality on the whole class kills the drive to work hard and therefore the tendency to stack up the collective knowledge.

And again, please explain the mechanics of socialism and communism. I keep asking for that. Did you read all of my last post? What is the major fuel for the machine? What is it? I have asked for that about ten times now, and nobody can tell me what it is supposed to be. I am asking the most important question that can be asked. What is the answer?

Plus, please tell me all about when socialism has ever been extremely effective.

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Originally Posted by imran_p

But capitalism breeds inequality, surely you can see that.
In a socialist state, regardless of what family you are born into and what standing of education you receive you can do well.
Surely you are valuing the ability to become succesful and wealthy above the equality of all?

Imran

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Equality has to be earned. You dont just get it for being alive. Why should slackers have the same status as people who bust ass?

If somebody's dad busted his ass for years to have a good income, why shouldnt he be able to give his kids a better education? Heres a quick note about education. Some kids just arent going to try as hard as others. This is a fact, i know, because i spent some time in public school. These kids just drag on the system. They dumb it down and slow it down for the rest of the kids. In socialism, your idea, the exact same thing would happen. Except, since everybody would have the same education, the ENTIRE population of kids would be attending a dumbed down system. I take comfort in knowing that my hard work can open doors for my children, grandchildren, and their children, assuming they also do what it takes.

Your system will NEVER work. Capitalism is the ONLY solution. For your system to work, every single person would have to care just as much as the next guy. In this country, we realized that will never happen, so we let those people fail without bringing the country down with them. If they arent going to help the greater good, then screw them! Why not reward the people who do work hard? We know how to cut our losses and get rid of weak links. Really, we dont get rid of them. Somebody has to serve me my McDonalds.

When people dont see the results of hard work, they dont work hard. Then socialism fails.

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Originally Posted by imran_p

But capitalism breeds inequality, surely you can see that.

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No, it doesn't. With a quality education, which is easy to obtain in this country, and a little hard work, you can change your breeding pretty quick.

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Originally Posted by imran_p

In a socialist state, regardless of what family you are born into and what standing of education you receive you can do well.

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Oh, yea? Some examples of the underprivileged rising to whatever it is you consider doing well?

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Originally Posted by imran_p

Surely you are valuing the ability to become succesful and wealthy above the equality of all?

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If we're all equal under the law, which is all anyone can hope for, yes.

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Intended, your system would require way too much structure. You are talking about the government taking control of every aspect of life. It could potentially lead to this utopian society, but why would you want it?

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I have actually not described what COULD be, I described what DID happen in some of the socialistic countries...
No total control required, too. Just another economical system. Total control comes from anti-propaganda. Socialism is not about destroying human rights, it's just a system of economy. Democracy, totalitarism, monarchy, tyranny, these are different things, they aren't economical systems!
See, the fruit of anti-propaganda is that you think socialism=totalitarism, or that you think communism=socialism... but it isn't true! If you repeat these things, it means you don't understand them, you're merely repeating what you've heard.
How can one have a truthful opinion of things he's been misinformed about to such a point that he says absolutely incorrect things about them?

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America was semi-isolationist, and it sustained itself just fine without "stealing" from other countries. Please, explain this "robbing" that we are doing. It seems to me like our money supports the world.

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I have explained, maybe you'd care to read before asking me to do it again?

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Originally Posted by imran_p

Read the link explaining The Labour Theory of Value, and counter it.

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Don't waste your time, I've already wasted mine and it's no good, but I have a lot of time to lose :). He'll never be able to counter it, he won't understand this Marx's theory. At least I've explained many things already, and people here behave as if they haven't even read my posts... It's zombification, they read the letters but can't realize what is written. I guess it's a mechanism of defense, too: they're scared that you can turn out to be right and they wrong. But mostly it's just zombification. Well, they live in a "democratical" world where only a single truth is allowed to be thought, so it's no surprise.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

No, it doesn't. With a quality education, which is easy to obtain in this country, and a little hard work, you can change your breeding pretty quick.

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You need to get this education first, and for that you need your parents to be well off. And... quality education in capitalistic countries? :) That's a good joke. Well, maybe in private school where only kids of rich people can enter...
In socialism you get all opportunities if you're smart enough, without any conditions that don't depend on you.

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Oh, yea? Some examples of the underprivileged rising to whatever it is you consider doing well?

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A lot. Social mobility is fully working in socialism.

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Originally Posted by Intended

You need to get this education first, and for that you need your parents to be well off. And... quality education in capitalistic countries? :) That's a good joke. Well, maybe in private school where only kids of rich people can enter...

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Not true, and not a joke. Anyone can get an education if they can do the work. The universities in countries where you pay for them are far superior to those where they are free, and not just the private schools.

com = good idea

com with people in charge = almost always bad

com with A.I = if you dont screw with the A.I. is could work

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Not true, and not a joke.

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You're wrong.
I had a chance to compare. Not me personally, but people who actually went abroad to teach students at different "good" foreign universities -- and not some trifle subjects, but math, physics, etc. The difference of the quality of education is so big you can cry over it.

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Anyone can get an education if they can do the work.

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Normally you get education first, and then you do the work. Your current financial status shouldn't be an obstacle to getting the best education you're fit for. Otherwise many smart people will lose a chance to get best education, and many dumb people will be accepted in universities just because they had money. That's the fallacy of the educational system.

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The universities in countries where you pay for them are far superior to those where they are free, and not just the private schools.

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This is wrong, see above, and I'm not making that up. They're far inferiour.

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Originally Posted by Intended

You're wrong.
I had a chance to compare. Not me personally, but people who actually went abroad to teach students at different "good" foreign universities -- and not some trifle subjects, but math, physics, etc. The difference of the quality of education is so big you can cry over it.


Normally you get education first, and then you do the work. Your current financial status shouldn't be an obstacle to getting the best education you're fit for. Otherwise many smart people will lose a chance to get best education, and many dumb people will be accepted in universities just because they had money. That's the fallacy of the educational system.


This is wrong, see above, and I'm not making that up. They're far inferiour.

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I don't have personal experience of foreign universities either; I'm just going by things I've read comparing US universities to the free ones in European countries and China; describing over-crowded classroom and apathetic teachers in Europe, and a majority of very substandard schools in China. This is due to a lack of competition between schools for students. Also the fact that a lot of foreign students want to come to the US to study; there must be a reason for that.

I meant if you can do the school-work you can go to school. There are so many grants and loans available for people without money, if you are academically able to get into some school, you will be able to pay for it. (Yes I know the grants and subsidized loans are a form of socialism; US is a socialist country.) Believe me, this is true--anyone who isn't able to get an education in this country doesn't want one. You may not go to the best school in the country, but that won't matter later (based on a study of salaries comparing graduates of ivy league U's vs. state schools).

I'm not arguing against the fact that dumb people get accepted into good schools based on their names (W).

Intended, i fully understand Marx's theory. It means that Labor is the most important thing to a country, so they should be rewarded and cherished. Now let me tell you what happens in the real world. The people with labor jobs are generally uneducated. Just because we rely on them doesnt mean we should give equal pay to jobs that anybody can do. You dont have to be smart to stack bricks or flip a burger.

Education pays off. Do you know how much a good education costs? It pays itself off with big paychecks. Its called "a reward system". It makes capitalism a wealth magnet.

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Originally Posted by Intended

See, the fruit of anti-propaganda is that you think socialism=totalitarism, or that you think communism=socialism... but it isn't true! If you repeat these things, it means you don't understand them, you're merely repeating what you've heard.
How can one have a truthful opinion of things he's been misinformed about to such a point that he says absolutely incorrect things about them?

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I already explained this. I guess I am going to have to snap you out of your "zombification" if I can. People generally don't want the government to rob the shit out of them, so generally in democracies there is capitalism. It takes a substantial degree of totalitarianism to hold a system of socialism. Socialism and democracy are not opposites, but they do come in opposite sets of factors.

And I can see that you and Imran aren't exactly spewing out passionate opinions about the specific mechanics of how socialism could possibly be a success. You must have your doubts because I have asked for that explanation a lot of times and still haven't gotten it. I am not here to debate Karl Marx. I am here to debate living socialists and communists on this web site. So for the hundred trillionth time... tell me about the mechanics of successful socialism. What would be the major fuel of such a machine that can't run on greed? Tell me about some examples of the extreme successes of socialism. Do you think you can do that? I keep having to ask.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

I'm just going by things I've read comparing US universities to the free ones in European countries and China

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I'm mostly thinking of quality of study books, of study process, of how exams get passed, what is learnt, etc. I read foreign study books of different coutries myself and they lose in comparison to some others. I compared how much time is put into studying per week, how much homework there is and how long holidays are. I heard how exams get passed from examinators, which questions are ok to ask and which people can't answer. Such comparisons seemed bad to me, especially when somebody in a good (not free!) university didn't know what I knew back in the 6th form of my free school.
I'm not saying that "free" is always better as far as it goes for quality, obviosly free European schools aren't best. There are many more things to take into account: starting from how much respect the job of a teacher has in a certain country and ending with the type and details of educational system. Mostly the latter is to blame for quality.

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a lot of foreign students want to come to the US to study; there must be a reason for that.

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As far as I know, all foreign students hope to stay and have good fees later :) It is also "cool" to have studied in the US, not because of educational system, but because of the current prestige of the country. Easier to find a job.

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I know the grants and subsidized loans are a form of socialism; US is a socialist country.

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What you describe is socially-oriented steps of capitalistic government, they have no direct relation to socialism. In socialism there's no private owners who live off all others and thanx to it money get distributed between people by the goverment in a fairer way, that's what it really is. If anything, education and medical care are completely free in pure socialism, no loans or grants, because schools, unis and hospitals belong to the state and are paid by the state.
Of course, the state takes this money from its people (by taxes and so on), so it's just a different system of money redistribution. It takes a fixed sum of money for doctors from everybody and gives this money to doctors, so doctors become free for everybody. As a result, everybody can visit doctors for free, instead of only those who're rich enough. There's actually no rich and poor in pure socialism, because of no private owners and money getting distributed in a way so that everybody could use its fruits.

Half\Dreaming

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i fully understand Marx's theory. It means that Labor is the most important thing to a country, so they should be rewarded and cherished.

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This shows that you don't understand what the theory is about... It's about how these people are unerpayed, i.e. robbed of a part of money that they do produce.

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The people with labor jobs are generally uneducated. Just because we rely on them doesnt mean we should give equal pay to jobs that anybody can do. You dont have to be smart to stack bricks or flip a burger.

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You don't get paid for being smart. You get for effectiveness of your work, whatever it is: whether you're working with your head or hands.

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It makes capitalism a wealth magnet.

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Please reread what made US a wealth magnet, I've written about it already. You in US get paid more per hour than in other countries not because you're smarter, but because you use the work of other countries. So in this case we have the global trade system, i.e. the whole country as a manager, and the whole other country as an underpayed worker (see the link Imran gave, but extrapolate what's written in it to a global trade system). As a result, the whole country gets dishonest money (the whole -- meaning that fees of your workers are included, too), and the whole other country gets underpayed. Got it? ;)

Universal Mind
I told you all you want and you keep ignoring it and asking again. I don't want to repeat myself.
All I can say is: if your goal is to study what socialism is, read about it or at least read my explanations with your eyes open :). But if your primary goal is to distort my words and deny your ignorance about socialism, don't read about it and leave it alone. That's all.
Nobody is forcing you to do discuss what you don't care about.

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Originally Posted by Intended

What you describe is socially-oriented steps of capitalistic government, they have no direct relation to socialism. In socialism there's no private owners who live off all others and thanx to it money get distributed between people by the goverment in a fairer way, that's what it really is. If anything, education and medical care are completely free in pure socialism, no loans or grants, because schools, unis and hospitals belong to the state and are paid by the state.

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But there's no purely socialist state that's not corrupt and oppressive. Is there? (I say purely because I think the US is way too socialist.) There may be some small countries with a homogenous population that can make it work for a while, but in a large country with a diverse population, it just can't happen. Some people at the top are going to work the system to their advantage, and other people are never going to receive what they should.

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Originally Posted by Intended

Of course, the state takes this money from its people (by taxes and so on), so it's just a different system of money redistribution. It takes a fixed sum of money for doctors from everybody and gives this money to doctors, so doctors become free for everybody. As a result, everybody can visit doctors for free, instead of only those who're rich enough. There's actually no rich and poor in pure socialism, because of no private owners and money getting distributed in a way so that everybody could use its fruits.

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If there's no rich and no poor, there's no reason for anyone to try harder, there's no reason to work hard, there's no competition, and there's no reason for anyone to really care about the quality of their work. I wouldn't want to live in a country where the doctors and engineers didn't expect to be paid more for their years of school and stressful jobs. That would not be good.

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Originally Posted by Intended

Social mobility is fully working in socialism.

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What does that even mean? What is "social mobility" in a country where there are no rich and no poor?

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Originally Posted by Intended

Please reread what made US a wealth magnet, I've written about it already. You in US get paid more per hour than in other countries not because you're smarter, but because you use the work of other countries. So in this case we have the global trade system, i.e. the whole country as a manager, and the whole other country as an underpayed worker (see the link Imran gave, but extrapolate what's written in it to a global trade system). As a result, the whole country gets dishonest money (the whole -- meaning that fees of your workers are included, too), and the whole other country gets underpayed. Got it? ;)

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I think this is true.

You are speaking entirely hypothetically for a system that is appealing to your emotions. Everyone can see how nice it be if the animals did take over the farm, but this has been proven not to work again and again by those who ignored human nature and actually attempted it. You cannot artificially seperate the economics system of a country from the way the government works.

Intended, i really dont understand your logic. Who cares who "creates" the wealth. Construction workers by themselves are WORTHLESS. There has to be a college-man to come before him to make the plans for the building. They get screwed when the paycheck comes because they do what anybody else can do, and there is no shortage of employees. Educated people are more valuable. Educated people are the ones who make everything possible.

It is impossible to "create" wealth when there is no product. Who gives a rats ass who put your computer together? It is worthless, and probably wouldnt even exist without software, created by Bill Gates. Whoever creates the product or knows the science behind it is valuable. Those who put it together, even though they are necessary as a whole, are individually trivial. There is no bee's nest or worker bee population without the queen. Do you deny this? It sounds to me like you're using the "its just not fair!!" excuse.

Life isnt fair, and those who dont get college degrees are not as valuable as those who do. Using your logic, a private should have the same rank and ability to give orders as a captain on the battlefield. I mean, grunts are the one's who win the battles, right? There's a reason why educated people are in charge.

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Originally Posted by Intended

Universal Mind
I told you all you want and you keep ignoring it and asking again. I don't want to repeat myself.
All I can say is: if your goal is to study what socialism is, read about it or at least read my explanations with your eyes open :). But if your primary goal is to distort my words and deny your ignorance about socialism, don't read about it and leave it alone. That's all.
Nobody is forcing you to do discuss what you don't care about.

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That is so weak. You never did answer the two questions I keep asking over and over. You don't have good answers to those questions, so you keep dodging them. If you didn't, prove it by quoting what you said. In case you have forgotten, the two questions are...

1. What do you think would be the driving forces in communism and socialism? (In capitalism it is greed. What would you say it would be in communism and socialism?)

2. What are some examples of really successful socialist countries (You said communism has never existed, to the disagreement of many governments and historians, so let's concentrate on socialism here. You can start by telling me about some very specific examples of socialist nations that have a poverty class that is better off than ours.)

You know you kept dodging those two questions, but you deny it, so go ahead and set the record straight with two short answers. You can make them long if you want to, however. If you don't feel like answering them, just quote where you supposedly already did. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That is so weak. You never did answer the two questions I keep asking over and over. You don't have good answers to those questions, so you keep dodging them. If you didn't, prove it by quoting what you said. In case you have forgotten, the two questions are...

1. What do you think would be the driving forces in communism and socialism? (In capitalism it is greed. What would you say it would be in communism and socialism?)

2. What are some examples of really successful socialist countries (You said communism has never existed, to the disagreement of many governments and historians, so let's concentrate on socialism here. You can start by telling me about some very specific examples of socialist nations that have a poverty class that is better off than ours.)

You know you kept dodging those two questions, but you deny it, so go ahead and set the record straight with two short answers. You can make them long if you want to, however. If you don't feel like answering them, just quote where you supposedly already did. Thanks.

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I know, its ridiculous, right? I may have to answer for them.

The only possible driving force for socialism would be knowing that your hard work is for the better of society. If EVERYBODY trusted in that, and if EVERYBODY busted their ass, a socialist society could potentially become great.

But, the inevitable weak links (probably the majority of people) would never allow this to happen, as people are, in fact, greedy. A socialist society would collapse to quickly to become great because of this "majority of people".

Awesome, i summed up everything i have been trying to say.

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

If EVERYBODY trusted in that, and if EVERYBODY busted their ass, a socialist society could potentially become great.

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Unfortunately there are always pigs at a farm.

I think that Communism in Marxists views works in some ways but theres just too much that doesn't work with Communism, you've got to consider freedom of speech. After seeing the way Communism is going in China i am glad the UK is not under a Communist leader. Though i like the idea of equality i do believe that the current society is the best we've had so far, however there are many things i disagree with such as poverty and those lower down in the social hierarchy. You can easily say that those in lower classes have life chances but alot of them don't, nowadays its incredibly difficult to achieve social mobility to move up this current social hierarchy. I think we have yet to experience a good way of ordering society, there are so many bad points of the current societys.

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Originally Posted by Lucid Seeker

I think that Communism in Marxists views works in some ways but theres just too much that doesn't work with Communism, you've got to consider freedom of speech. After seeing the way Communism is going in China i am glad the UK is not under a Communist leader. Though i like the idea of equality i do believe that the current society is the best we've had so far, however there are many things i disagree with such as poverty and those lower down in the social hierarchy. You can easily say that those in lower classes have life chances but alot of them don't, nowadays its incredibly difficult to achieve social mobility to move up this current social hierarchy. I think we have yet to experience a good way of ordering society, there are so many bad points of the current societys.

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Good point! Lets talk for a minute about civil liberties involved with a socialist or communist society. We have been too focused on economics.

Most of the freedoms we enjoy would have to be scraped. As you said, freedom of speech. If a group of people were not content with the system, they would have to be silenced.

That's what I figured their answer to the first question would be if they ever dared to answer. The answer is probably something to the effect of, "The driving force would be the will to give money to everybody else, no matter how hard they work." That doesn't cut it, never has cut it, and never possibly could cut it. What people go to work and say, "I'm going to work really hard today because I want to spread my wealth to all of the lazy asses who don't feel like working too hard."? Very few. This is illustrated by the fact that socialism has never produced a wealthy nation. It is impossible. Greed is the great generator of wealth.

Intended and Imran, you are still welcome to give your own answers, if you have answers you are proud enough of to give.

What we really need is a social structure in which there is equality but with freedom of speech and everyone has equal opportunities, the only problem is that when you put that equality into action you get disagreements and arguements over it being unfair, people have gotten too used to the stratification we are currently in. Those in lower classes i am sure would be in favour of an equal society but those in a higher class would probably not like the idea because they have put in effort to earn their status and for all that effort to be flushed away would show many disagreements in those of higher class. No matter what way we have of ordering society its always going to have problems as long as people have freedom of speech because after all we are all entitled to our opinions are we not.

and question #2 is unanswerable.

Only if, lucid seeker, only if. Mixing freedom with socialism is impossible by nature. Even if that were possible, i still think it would suck.

Moonbeam,

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I think the US is way too socialist

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No, socialism is the absence of private owners. The US is capitalistic. Why don't you want to understand that I'm not making anything up? Whatever I said about socialism in a previous post wasn't made up, it was not just my opinion, those were objective facts. And you behave just like others in this thread, who argue with objective facts.
Take the link Imran gave. It got proved that Marx wrote the truth, bosses actually do rob workers of big amount of their pay, no capitalist would deny that. And people here behave as if it wasn't truth.

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Some people at the top are going to work the system to their advantage, and other people are never going to receive what they should.

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If you mean that there can be no free education and medical care, it already did happen and disproved such opinions.

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If there's no rich and no poor, there's no reason for anyone to try harder, there's no reason to work hard, there's no competition, and there's no reason for anyone to really care about the quality of their work.

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That's a widespread misconception. No rich and poor means there's no people who're 100000 richer than you, but maybe 10 times richer than you. Again, this isn't my opinion, that's how socialism actually works. Also quality of education proved that at least quality of education doesn't depend on how much teachers get paid.

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What does that even mean? What is "social mobility" in a country where there are no rich and no poor?

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Social mobility means you get born anywhere, e.g. in a countryside, and you aren't stuck. You can become anyone at all, if you're fit for it. In most of countries there's a limit for you, though in some cases a miracle happens.

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You are speaking entirely hypothetically for a system that is appealing to your emotions.

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It isn't a hypothesis, I'm just explaining how this system actually works. You keep thinking that I'm stating my own opinions while I'm stating the facts.

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You cannot artificially seperate the economics system of a country from the way the government works.

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If you're talking of corruption, it exists in any system and any state. They are certain measures to fight it. E.g. in China you can't get money out of the country, you can only get out products they've produced. Which means the country doesn't lose money, and if somebody decides to get out products they're actually helping. Such measures are taken in capitalistic countries, too.

Universal Mind
Why do you keep wanting to talk to me if you don't care for the subject of discussion?

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What do you think would be the driving forces in communism and socialism?

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Half\Dreaming had a part of answer.
I can remind you that in Japan they have this type of system at work: your company is considered to be your family, and however much you succeed in your career you won't be paid more. Now, don't tell me Japan is not a successful country...
But I already said that in socialism you do get more pay than others, it's just not as unequal as 1 to 100000, so there is a motivation in this sense, too.
But... It's ridiculous to ask such a question, since it got proven that whatever driving force was present, it worked. You're just searching to argue something minor.

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What are some examples of really successful socialist countries

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I already talked about USSR. Look at previous posts.

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You said communism has never existed, to the disagreement of many governments and historians

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They call it communism for crowd, because the goal is communism. It's a name of the ideology in this case, not for an economical system. But we're talking of economical system.

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Intended and Imran, you are still welcome to give your own answers

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And this is said by a person who lost the argument on previous pages? Don't make me laugh.

Half\Dreaming

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Most of the freedoms we enjoy would have to be scraped. As you said, freedom of speech. If a group of people were not content with the system, they would have to be silenced

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A widespread misconception. Economical system is about redistribution of money, it has nothing in common with human rights. These things aren't even parrallel, they have nothing to do together at all. You're just remembering how people on TV kept bashing China (or another country) for the lack of liberties. They tried to make you think that the country is very bad, and the effective way to do it would be making you think of liberties. If they just told you how money get distributed there you'd compare with yours and be jealous instead. You'd know that if you got rid of dishonest ways to create enormous wealth, you yourself would become much much richer. That's a fact. But of course, nobody can talk like that, because you don't really have a complete freedom of speech and thought, however much you're getting hypnotized in believing that you do.
Let me remind you that some capitalistic countries lack liberties. Saying "socialism = no freedom of speech" or "capitalism = freedom of speech" is absurd. Again, that's a fact, not just my opinion.

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Construction workers by themselves are WORTHLESS.

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This is a misconception which exists due to artificial dishonesties. Think about the "intellectual property" idea.
See, if you've created something physical, it's very hard to multiply it, it costs a lot. As a result, workers are paid for copying physical things (although they're underpayed a lot actually, as Marx had proved and capitalists DID agree). But we only care that it costs a lot to recreate, a lot of materials, a lot of physical effort, a lot of money to get materials.
But if you created something like an idea, it's very easy to multiply it in unlimited numbers (think MsWindows) with no effort. That's how dishonest wealth is created, since you can recreate the same thing an unlimited amount of times without sweat. But if it didn't cost you to recreate it, so the value of the copy should be zero! (The price of the product is calculated by the amount of work it costed). Of course, dishonest people didn't want to comply, so they created ways to get unearned wealth by an artificial idea of intellectual property.
There are other artificial dishonesties, e.g. monopolies. If you got monopoly, you can set any dishonest price you want. Think MsWindows again, that's a fine example of how two dishonesties are combined.

For one thing, i dont watch the news. China does suck. You talk about how I would be jealous of their distribution of wealth. No I wouldnt!! The average chinese is DIRT POOR. But it doesnt matter because everbody is dirt poor. Dude, i am not jealous of that.

I never said the economics and civil liberties of a socialist society walk hand in hand. In order for socialism to work, everybody has to be on board. Weak links bring the entire system down. The government would never allow those people to have their rights. And i know that capitalism doesnt equal free speech. Where is the logic behind that? BUT, since capitalism runs off the idea that you control your own life, more freedoms are retained. Now answer me this. How can you have any freedom if you are not in control of your own life? Socialism is a form of fascism (by its definition). Almost literally, tying all twigs together to make a strong stick. Fascism and freedom dont mix.

As to the second part of your post, ideas are worth more than physical objects. Physical objects come from ideas.

My final question. You think that the inventors should not get paid more than the workers who build their product. Tell me, where is the incentive to invent? We have already proven that "for the good of the country" is something people just wont do.

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

For one thing, i dont watch the news.

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And don't read books about these subjects? About history, politics, economy? Then what are you talking about? You can't talk of such things if you know nothing, not even what's on the news.

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China does suck.

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Who are you to say it? How can you say the whole country sucks? Do you realize you've just insulted ALL people who live there?
Only complete morons can say such moronic things.
See, you're misrepresenting your nation. You're the second American here who said this moronic sentence... Are you ALL morons?

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You talk about how I would be jealous of their distribution of wealth. No I wouldnt!!

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Your country is rich, right? So if your richest superclass didn't steal from you, people on average would be richer: YOU'd be richer.

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I never said the economics and civil liberties of a socialist society walk hand in hand.

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Good! But why lie that you've never said it...

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In order for socialism to work, everybody has to be on board. Weak links bring the entire system down. The government would never allow those people to have their rights.

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You do realize that you know nothing about socialism, right? Why do you keep saying how you've been taught to think it works? You think you can know the truth, if you know nothing about the subject of discussion?
These were rhetoric questions.

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And i know that capitalism doesnt equal free speech. Where is the logic behind that?

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You said it on your own. Ask yourself where your logic was.

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BUT, since capitalism runs off the idea that you control your own life, more freedoms are retained.

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Socialism runs with the same idea. That's one of zombification tricks: two things that aren't related get connected to another and you begin to think that both of them are bad, not just one. You still keep thinking that you must be awfully oppressed and have no rights in socialism.

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Socialism is a form of fascism (by its definition). Almost literally, tying all twigs together to make a strong stick. Fascism and freedom dont mix.

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Who are you to say these moronic things? Learn what fascism is, before trying to compare. Then learn about socialism. I know what your problem is: zombies don't learn on their own, they're disinformed and taught to have only one train of thought.

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As to the second part of your post, ideas are worth more than physical objects. Physical objects come from ideas.

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Well, ok. I tried to explain. And I decided that I don't talk to stupid people.
FYI stupid=someone who can't understand basic things (which I tried to explain about physical vs. intellectual property).
I don't really feel I should apologize, because: 1) it's true; 2) you behaved much worse.

Intended, you spin more than a Michael Moore frisbee.

I said i dont watch the news. I never said i dont read books. And since when are books an infallable source?

China doesnt suck? I suppose you like a country that kills its young because it cant support its population. Communism at its best. I mean it, its BEST.

I consider myself lower middle class. I dont care about the "super duper rich". I know i probably wouldnt have my job if it werent for these people. I leave them alone because i know they are the brains of my awesome economy.

Read my post about civil liberties and socialism again. You said yourself that socialism has never really existed, yet you say socialists could have as many rights as we do. It really isnt possible.

Fine, i may not have a monopoly on the truth of socialism like you, but you definately dont know anything about human nature. Your ideologies say so. Still, all i see coming from you is "its just not fair!!!" You propose no plausible alternate system, and all you can do is insult capitalism.

"Whatever" is right. You are ideolistic. Thats it! Your idea looks good on paper, but it has no basis for what you say. All you have is "what ifs". You say i have been brainwashed into believing only in capitalism? Ha!! Maybe so, but can you deny that greed is the perfect driving force? Why not use it to the country's advantage?

Alright i'll take your little challenge. Dont even respond to this post, and just explain socialism. Every inch of it!! You tell me i dont understand it, but you havent explained it. I leave it to you

who here has read Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto?

"I consider myself lower middle class. I dont care about the "super duper rich". I know i probably wouldnt have my job if it werent for these people. I leave them alone because i know they are the brains of my awesome economy."

you sound like a modern day peasant! is it really that great a thing that they give you? a job the keeps you lower middle class? Arn't you just being used? And I can't seem to understand how being lower-middle-class and working for someone else is really "freedom"?

I won't even discuss the same misconceptions you wrote that you keep repeating over and over again ignoring the fact that I've disproved them.
You ignore my disproves and keep repeating your own thoughts, as if merely repeating them could make them true. Bad news, what you want isn't always true. I got sick of it already.

Look only at this:

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

You said yourself that socialism has never really existed, yet you say socialists could have as many rights as we do. It really isnt possible.

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Indeed, because it's communism that I said never existed... Man, you're hopeless.

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Alright i'll take your little challenge. Dont even respond to this post, and just explain socialism. Every inch of it!! You tell me i dont understand it, but you havent explained it. I leave it to you

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I tried to explain how socialism works many times, but you kept arguing, as if I was making these things up. You even called it "an utopia" once, meaning it can't be possible, although I just described what fruits socialism actually had (in that particular case in USSR), i.e. it was all real.
Now why would I care to waste time and explain this system as a whole to someone who can't understand basic things? It's hopeless.
You've lost the argument. Reason: inability to understand the subject of discussion.

P.S. Read something on your own if you sincerely want to. Or just learn to talk normally to people, without this arrogant voice, and they'll talk to you.

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Originally Posted by shark!

who here has read Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto?

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Das Kapital, in German? ;)

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is it really that great a thing that they give you? a job the keeps you lower middle class? Arn't you just being used? And I can't seem to understand how being lower-middle-class and working for someone else is really "freedom"?

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Unfortunately, zombies always defend the "super-duper" elite, not themselves. I kept talking to that person, and he kept answering as if he was one of the elite. Zombies can't switch back to their point of view, because the elite has eliminated it via the unofficialy controlled mass-media.
He glorifies greed, but doesn't want to be richer, he agrees that the elite can have everything... That's their point of view, not his.

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Originally Posted by shark!

who here has read Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto?

"I consider myself lower middle class. I dont care about the "super duper rich". I know i probably wouldnt have my job if it werent for these people. I leave them alone because i know they are the brains of my awesome economy."

you sound like a modern day peasant! is it really that great a thing that they give you? a job the keeps you lower middle class? Arn't you just being used? And I can't seem to understand how being lower-middle-class and working for someone else is really "freedom"?

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I work for me and what i want. How do you know my job keeps me in lower middle class? You dont even know how old i am or my current situation. How do you know i dont work for myself? Btw lower middle class is a subsection of middle class, not a space between lower and middle. Middle class is actually petty wealthy.

Intended, YOU are hopeless! You have yet to explain your system. Period. And dont talk about me like you fucking know me. I dont want to make more money? Great assumption, jackass. I am an American, right? The thought of a pile of money gets me sexually excited;). But NO!!! I have been BRAINWASHED into slavery for the rich!!! HA!!!! Comedic!!! America kicks ass while your ideology fails. Thats all the "brainwashing" i need.

It really makes me mad when you call me an American brainwashed zombie supremist. I could just as easily call you a disgruntled European who has been brainwashed by the leaders of his country into believing that everything American is bad because they are INFERIOR, but that doesnt make it true. I'd watch the stereotypes.

Are you going to explain your system, or not?

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Originally Posted by Intended

Universal Mind
Why do you keep wanting to talk to me if you don't care for the subject of discussion?

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How is asking the same unanswered questions over and over not caring about the subject of discussion? I keep asking two extremely relevant questions, and you keep dodging them because you don't have good answers. You say that socialism is a great system, yet you repeatedly avoid telling me what the driving force in it would be AND when in the Hell it has ever worked. Go figure. If you really believed in socialism, you would be telling me all about those things even without my asking. You are doing the opposite. But maybe insulting people personally will make up for your lack of ability to discuss the subject. Let me know when you've come up with answers to my two big questions, not that you actually ever will.

I'll try this another way too. I'll make two points that you can't counter.

1. Socialism has no major economic driving force because it does not encourage people to work hard or to be inventive or entrepreneurial.

2. No wealthy socialist nation has ever existed.

I challenge you to counter those points. Don't lie by saying that they are not relevant to the subject. They ARE the subject.

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I work for me and what i want. How do you know my job keeps me in lower middle class? You dont even know how old i am or my current situation. How do you know i dont work for myself? Btw lower middle class is a subsection of middle class, not a space between lower and middle. Middle class is actually petty wealthy.

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your job must keep you in lowermiddleclass if you are working and still in lowermiddleclass. You're right I dont know you or much about your situation. Do you work for yourself? And yes middle class is quite wealthy, probably the wealthiest group of that size in history. In fact even lower middle class is wealthy compared to the rest of history. (even the "lower classes" are comparitivly rich,just look how fat the average southern wal-mart shopper is!)

Clearly capitalism has created fucking amazing amounts of wealth. At what cost? boredom? on the back of hardworking people wasting their lives? Who is to say what the price of progress should be, and who is to say if its worth it, not me. Personally I think capitalism is amazing, but I also think that "capitalism is cannabalism", At least it seems to be "working" better than a lot of other things. On the other hand just because its better that say, feudalism or "flawed USSR Stalinist "communism" " doesn't mean we can't still come up with something better. (I don't know, maybe something like a post-anarchist Ludic society built around "playing" all day might be nice ;))

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you sound like a modern day peasant! is it really that great a thing that they give you? a job the keeps you lower middle class? Arn't you just being used? And I can't seem to understand how being lower-middle-class and working for someone else is really "freedom"?

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my point was more of a john lennon song reference than anything else that I hoped someone would see : D

...and I guess a marxist point too that Intdended repeated in his own words, slightly less tactfully..;)with words like zombies



But I'm still wondering, is "freedom" the ability to choose which fastfood joint or factory you get to work at?

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Originally Posted by shark!

your job must keep you in lowermiddleclass if you are working and still in lowermiddleclass. You're right I dont know you or much about your situation. Do you work for yourself? And yes middle class is quite wealthy, probably the wealthiest group of that size in history. In fact even lower middle class is wealthy compared to the rest of history. (even the "lower classes" are comparitivly rich,just look how fat the average southern wal-mart shopper is!)

Clearly capitalism has created fucking amazing amounts of wealth. At what cost? boredom? on the back of hardworking people wasting their lives? Who is too say what the price of progress should be, and who is to say if its worth it, not me. Personally I think capitalism is amazing, but I also think that "capitalism is cannabalism", At least it seems to be "working" better than a lot of other things. On the other hand just because its better that say, feudalism or "flawed USSR Stalinist "communism" " doesn't mean we can't still come up with something better. (I don't know, maybe something like a post-anarchist Ludic society built around "playing" all day might be nice ;))





my point was more of a john lennon song reference than anything else that I hoped someone would see : D

...and I guess a marxist point too that Intdended repeated in his own words, slightly less tactfully..;)with words like zombies



But I'm still wondering, is "freedom" the ability to choose which fastfood joint or factory you get to work at?

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Ey, whats wrong with the south!! Dude, the southern US is very strange now. I was born and raised here, and i dont even have a southern accent. And im not fat!!:p Watch them stereotypes.

I wont say that Stalin's communism was true communism, because it is a fact. All I and Universal Mind mean to say is that there doesnt seem to be a driving force for communism, and nobody has pointed one out.

I dont see what is so bad about using the working class to generate worth. You said it yourself, American middle class is still considered wealthy by world standards. So, even though we are being "robbed", we are still richer than the middle classes of other nations. How is that not efficient?

Looking at it from that perspective, i would say that we are not really being robbed. Our system made our average person the richest average person in the world. Again, looking at it like that, on a WORLDWIDE scale, American laborers are not being screwed.

Intended, I understand where you are coming from in that you believe United States (multinational) corporations are profiting at the expense of the poor people in the world. This is with the approval and cooperation of the citizens of the US, who for the time being, get the trickle down, and every one is deluded that this is going to last forever, and even the poorest people are fat. We're all bought off here with cheap gas and cheap food and welfare for anyone who might cause trouble otherwise, meanwhile our deficit spending means in 40 years it will all collapse. Nobody here cares about socialism, that's for people who don't have anything. This country is run by old people who give themselves more and more at the expense of future generations. You're right about the media, and that we're zombies; we don't have a free press because it's owned by just a few people who only want us to know certain things.

Anyway--I agree with you if you are saying this is unsustainable and there should be a different way of doing things. However, I think that your way has been tried and has failed. It is a young idealistic person's idea.

The cooperation of government and business is what has gotten us to this point of more and more for fewer and fewer people. You are advocating for more of the same, but worse. There doesn't need to be more government which operates in the interest of corporations, there needs to be less. The less the better. And no matter what you say, socialism does mean less freedom for individuals, there's absolutely no way around it. It's 1984, fascism, complete loss of individual rights, and black markets are where you go for what you need.

On the other hand, a libertarian philosophy allows those of us who want to work hard and create more for ourselves to do so, without the government telling us how much we can work and how much we can earn, therefore not going against human nature and not making hard workers support an additional 2.5 lazy-asses, who should also have the right not to work if they don't want to (and maybe not to eat, but should be their choice).

I don't think this philosophy applies to corporations however--I think human rights are for humans only, and coporations shouldn't have the same rights as individuals, and therefore don't have to be allowed to become the unstoppable government-controlling forces that they are now.

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Ey, whats wrong with the south!! Dude, the southern US is very strange now. I was born and raised here, and i dont even have a southern accent. And im not fat!!:p Watch them stereotypes.

I wont say that Stalin's communism wasnt true communism, because it is a fact. All I and Universal Mind mean to say is that there doesnt seem to be a driving force for communism, and nobody has pointed one out.

I dont see what is so bad about using the working class to generate worth. You said it yourself, American middle class is still considered wealthy by world standards. So, even though we are being "robbed", we are still richer than the middle classes of other nations. How is that not efficient?

Looking at it from that perspective, i would say that we are not really being robbed. Our system made our average person the richest average person in the world. Again, looking at it like that, on a WORLDWIDE scale, American laborers are not being screwed.

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the south is rad! haha looking at the percentages...it might not just be a stereotype! but im not saying your fat, im just saying even much of america's poor are fat! and they are only considered "poor" if you compare them to america's rich. If you compared them to other groups in history america's poor are fairly well off.

NO, they are being screwed, but only slightly and only sometimes...but maybe there is something still better...is communism the answer? I've never said so...

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All I and Universal Mind mean to say is that there doesnt seem to be a driving force for communism, and nobody has pointed one out.

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do you mean you are saying Human Nature goes against socialism/marxism etc..?


AND
I'm still wondering, is "freedom" the ability to choose which fastfood joint or factory you get to work at?

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Moonbeam this is a communist thread get out of here! no far extreme-right allowed! : D and besides we don't need libertarianism, I already solved it...

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(I don't know, maybe something like a post-anarchist Ludic society built around "playing" all day might be nice ;))

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Originally Posted by shark!

the south is rad! haha looking at the percentages...it might not just be a stereotype! but im not saying your fat, im just saying even much of america's poor are fat! and they are only considered "poor" if you compare them to america's rich. If you compared them to other groups in history america's poor are fairly well off.

NO, they are being screwed, but only slightly and only sometimes...but maybe there is something still better...is communism the answer? I've never said so...

do you mean you are saying Human Nature goes against socialism/marxism etc..?

AND
I'm still wondering, is "freedom" the ability to choose which fastfood joint or factory you get to work at?
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Moonbeam this is a communist thread get out of here! no far extreme-right allowed! : D and besides we don't need libertarianism, I already solved it...

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Yea, the south has its ups and downs, but i love it. I would much rather be a redneck than a freggin yankee!! Northerners are VERY different from us. The hospitality we have here doesnt seem to exist up there. And we have pick-up trucks!!

I fully agree with you that there is a better way out there. Its just that communism and socialism are not the answers.

I do believe that human nature would not allow socialism to work. People arent that selfless.

YES, that is a form of freedom. But so is getting a college loan and going to Harvard to become a lawyer because you busted your ass in high school. Its easier here than you might thing, and all you have to do try. Unfortunately our high shool students are more focused on finding the best weed than school work, atleast at my high school. Private schools are a different story. Dude, America really is the land of opportunity, and it is never too late to get a college degree.

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Originally Posted by shark!

AND
I'm still wondering, is "freedom" the ability to choose which fastfood joint or factory you get to work at?

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With freedom, you can choose that, or to get a better education, or to start your own business, or to deliver pizza, or whatever. Without freedom, the government tells you what you are going to do. Being free does not mean being spoiled rotten. We are not talking about how to create Heaven. We are talking about allowing people to make their own ways. It is up to each individual to make his or her money on the path the individual chooses. But they have to work to get to the paths. With freedom, each person has a shot at making so much money he or she never has to work again.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

With freedom, you can choose that, or to get a better education, or to start your own business, or to deliver pizza, or whatever. Without freedom, the government tells you what you are going to do. Being free does not mean being spoiled rotten. We are not talking about how to create Heaven. We are talking about allowing people to make their own ways. It is up to each individual to make his or her money on the path the individual chooses. But they have to work to get to the paths. With freedom, each person has a shot at making so much money he or she never has to work again.

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True, i would rather choose to deliver pizzas than be told i have to.

I would like to adress something, and i mentioned it on previous posts. Americans are the richest people on earth. We have a highest standard of living, on average. So, in the end, how are we being robbed, again?

"Well, screw you, you're a dog. Dogs are color blind. That means you can't see color, so you can't see the colors of the American Flag, you communist!"

--Stewie Griffin

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But nice to see this topic still going. Communism is still a powerful word, thanks to all the anti-propaganda during the cold war.

Also always nice to see two full grown men pleasure themselves verbally trough patriotism. :)

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

With freedom, you can choose that, or to get a better education, or to start your own business, or to deliver pizza, or whatever. Without freedom, the government tells you what you are going to do. Being free does not mean being spoiled rotten. We are not talking about how to create Heaven. We are talking about allowing people to make their own ways. It is up to each individual to make his or her money on the path the individual chooses. But they have to work to get to the paths. With freedom, each person has a shot at making so much money he or she never has to work again.

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Lets respond to this. I kind of didn't read the last few pages of the topic, so excuse me if I say things that have been said before.

First of all, what does freedom has to do with this topic? Are you still confusing Stalin's totalitarian empire with the theoretical utopia-commumism? And even besides that, I would like to know in what way America is more free then Europe. I believe I have asked this question before sometime, and it didn't surprise me I didn't get an answer then. If any line is just sealed into most American's minds it is "WE aR TEH FRE-EST COUNTRY EFFER!!" or synonyms of that sentence, without actual proof supporting that claim. Like saying 'god bless America'.

Explain to me how a theoretical 'communism', or socialism, or at least some hypothetical country where everyone earns the same for the same hours of work, or at least no more deviation then 50-100%, leads to less freedom.

The only 'freedom' capitalism gives you above a non-totalitarian communistic society is the ability to under the right circumstances economically rise above the average, at the cost of the rest, creating relatively poor (if we assume a communistic and a capitalistic society are economically equally efficient. I see no reason why that would be impossible).

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Your 'freedom' is often awfully relative. Someone with an I.Q. of below 100, and below-average charisma, does not have to 'freedom' to never have to work again to feed it's children, unless it enjoys the 'freedom' of winning the lottery. Aren't some people genetically less equipped to enjoy the freedom of getting right? Or aren't a lot of people socially less equipped to attain wealth?

Anyhow. Interchanging the word 'capitalism' with 'freedom' is just deceiving. It would also be a freedom to be able to kill people. However, I personally don't like 'freedoms' that allow people to do things at the cost of others. There can not be rich people without poor people.

I hate the massive misconceptions about communism. The Chinese are not communist, their fascist. They use communism as a dream to rally support when in fact they are admittingly still a dictatorship of the proletariat that doesn't support the proletariat it pretends to. Same with the uSSR, Vietnam, North Korea, and pretty much all attempts at communism. Greedy motherfuckers used communism as an excuse, just like our government uses terrorism as an excuse to apply some fascist techniques to government.

Neruo, socialism and communism are robbery, and it takes a fascist system to maintain those economic policies. Freedom involves the right to not be severely robbed by the government, and truly free societies tend to reject socialism and communism because those are anti-freedom systems.

I agree that not everybody is genetically equipped to attain the same amounts of wealth, but everybody should still be given the freedom to do the best they can. To take that right away is to take away freedom... and the incentive to work hard and be inventive.

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Originally Posted by DoomedOne

I hate the massive misconceptions about communism. The Chinese are not communist, their fascist. They use communism as a dream to rally support when in fact they are admittingly still a dictatorship of the proletariat that doesn't support the proletariat it pretends to. Same with the uSSR, Vietnam, North Korea, and pretty much all attempts at communism. Greedy motherfuckers used communism as an excuse, just like our government uses terrorism as an excuse to apply some fascist techniques to government.

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Actually the Chinese are more capitalist-leaning now. But they are fascists

Neuro, I would say that America is "more free" than Europe. You know as well as I do that freedom of speech is more limited in Europe. Most European countries have much higher taxes than we do here. We have the freedom to pay for our own health care, and not wait 5 years for a surgery if we need it. It may sound strange to you, but we have the freedom to be racist. From what i understand, practicing racism in Europe is basically a crime. The list goes on and on, and Europe has a bunch of quirky laws that we dont have here.

In America, Westboro Baptist Church members can hold those signs on the side of the road, and have police protecting them. Could that really happen on the side of a English street?

Anyway, back to communism. Is it not by definition the opposite of freedom? If you are not in control of the things that communism would control, then how is that freedom?

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Actually the Chinese are more capitalist-leaning now. But they are fascists

Neuro, I would say that America is "more free" than Europe. You know as well as I do that freedom of speech is more limited in Europe.

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Nappy headed ho's.

What a nonsense. You wouldn't believe the bullshit politicians and people alike get away with saying here. You have no proper argumentated foundation to base that claim on. Come back when you have some proof.

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Most European countries have much higher taxes than we do here. We have the freedom to pay for our own health care, and not wait 5 years for a surgery if we need it.

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Hahahaha. That is why you have the 'freedom' to have Horrible schools. Worse schools on average then 75% of europe or something.

Also, your heath care is Greaaat.. Yeah. It just happens to be so, that Americans pay alot for heath care, but in actual results,score below some very sad counties.

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It may sound strange to you, but we have the freedom to be racist. From what i understand, practicing racism in Europe is basically a crime. The list goes on and on, and Europe has a bunch of quirky laws that we dont have here.

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I don't see anyone stopping 'blood and honour' here. Actually, as far as I heard, even racist groups get police escort on a protest, to prevent fights.

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In America, Westboro Baptist Church members can hold those signs on the side of the road, and have police protecting them. Could that really happen on the side of a English street?

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Oh, I didn't read this. Well, yes, if the hate is not aimed at anyone personally. However, we have this silly rule that says causing horrible grief upon already sad people shouldn't be allowed. We are so unfree.

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And what about drugs? There are hundreds of thousands of Americans in jail for the most innocent drug.
What about burning an American flag in the street? Can you still? If I recall, your counties does have some rules about not being allowed to discredit America or something? Pissing against our government building would get you in far less trouble, so to say.
And what about having a private house? Your government can just listen to your phone calls, see what sites you go to. Patriot act, gotta love it.

And what about your horrible media? Your very media is tainted with bias. You have like the 150th place in free media in your country. That is a bloody shame. Free, proper media is a greatly important factor for a democratically healthy country.

Talking about that, what about the 'freedom' to only vote for 2 parties. Do you think there will EVER be a 3rd? I greatly doubt it. Great choice you have. Between 'stupid' and 'more stupid'. I can vote from over 10 parties. But that isn't even as important. More important is, that I could, Far and FAR more easily, get into politics myself, if I really put my mind on it.

Do you think some black guy growing up in 'the hood', or some trailer park trash can EVER get into politics, regardless of how good they are?

America is only more free for companies, the government and police forces. Not for it's people.

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Anyway, back to communism. Is it not by definition the opposite of freedom? If you are not in control of the things that communism would control, then how is that freedom?

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The communism I idealize, is one of the freedom to do what ever you want unless if you hurt other with it, and where everyone earns about the same amount of money.

I don't know how marx intended it, but I would like a world where people would work, not for their own money, but for the entire world, and love it as much as people love raking in money for themselves now. I don't see why there couldn't be a great deal of freedom to go with that.

But like I said like 4320 pages back, communism (the kind I am thinking of), can't really work in the current fucked up state the world is. Maybe if we have food replicators, and people finally stop being materialistic.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Neruo, socialism and communism are robbery, and it takes a fascist system to maintain those economic policies. Freedom involves the right to not be severely robbed by the government, and truly free societies tend to reject socialism and communism because those are anti-freedom systems.

I agree that not everybody is genetically equipped to attain the same amounts of wealth, but everybody should still be given the freedom to do the best they can. To take that right away is to take away freedom... and the incentive to work hard and be inventive.

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What the heck? I though it responded to this already? It's like a few of my posts have dissapeared.. : /

Ah well.

How is (theoretical) communism robbery? Because of taxes? You have taxes in any civilized country. There is no reason why a communist society would have More taxes then a capitalistic one (at least, if the capitalistic one values good, free schools and good, free healthcare).

Besides taxes, I don't see what a communistic government steals.

If you are talking about profits one would earn in some countries from having some Chinese people locked in his basement working for close to nothing, I don't see how it is robbery if one gets paid for his work, it just isn't at the cost of his employees.

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Also, in a theoretically perfect communistic society, people wouldn't get lazy just because they can't make 100 times more as a normal job if they invent some patent or something. As I said, it would be pretty hard to get people not to focus on their own profit.

Also, like I said, I don't see how it is a freedom to get rich, at the cost of others. The world's economy is a closed system. If someone gets rich, someone (mostly more then one) gets relatively poor. I don't see it as a virtue to live your freedom of getting rich, at the cost of others. It's like the 'freedom' to steal, or rape. The only difference is not that all those things are in people's nature (under certain circumstances), because there is a potential thief in everyone, but that stealing through capitalism works very 'naturally' and unlike communism, can work with bad people in the mix.

Neuro, what you dont understand is that the screwed up crap in my country is the result of too much freedom. The media in America is free to talk about whatever they want, and they choose to focus on trivial stuff rather than the important stuff. They just report what people want to hear. Its not like Russia, where the media is FORCED to report "positive news" 25% of the time.

What about college? High School doesnt mean shit. All you have to do is try, make decent grades, and go to college to get a Master's degree. THAT is where the real education is, and i KNOW that Europe has low ass college attendance rates. In the end, we are much more educated.

I went to private school as well as public school. My private school was among the best in the world, so dont talk about crappy schooling. And unless you attended my public school, i wouldnt say anything either. The only difference is that kids dont try in public schools, so teachers have to compensate.

I would also like to add that all this smugness about how much better your schools are doesnt mean crap. Europeans should be #1, and us stupid ass, uneducated Americans should be inferior. But, we are not. Our system obviously works better, as we create the most educated people on Earth. You just hate it because a good education costs money.

Whatever, man. Most of the "non-freedoms" you mentioned about America are indirect and subjective. To tell the truth, i dont understand the drug ban in the US. The ones in Europe are direct. DIRECT limitations of free speech. Direct limitations of medical procedures. So on and so forth.

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Neuro, what you dont understand is that the screwed up crap in my country is the result of too much freedom. The media in America is free to talk about whatever they want, and they choose to focus on trivial stuff rather than the important stuff. They just report what people want to hear. Its not like Russia, where the media is FORCED to report "positive news" 25% of the time.

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I never said America was all That unfree that it matches Russia. Also, dispite your crappy media being so popular, it does really break down the people's knowledge about things that matter, things about their own government. It is a huge risk. For instance, do you think the Bush administration would get away with the dozens of lies, helping friends stay out of jail and infringing in people's privacy if your media was number 1 in the world?

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What about college? High School doesnt mean shit. All you have to do is try, make decent grades, and go to college to get a Master's degree. THAT is where the real education is, and i KNOW that Europe has low ass college attendance rates. In the end, we are much more educated.

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Yes, a great environment to get all those kids full of potential to grow is a crappy school in a big city where they have more students then desks.

Also, I highly doubt that per person you have more educated people in America. Even with all the brain-draining you cause from second world countries, if I am not mistaken the average IQ in europe is higher then in America.

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I went to private school as well as public school. My private school was among the best in the world, so dont talk about crappy schooling. And unless you attended my public school, i wouldnt say anything either. The only difference is that kids dont try in public schools, so teachers have to compensate.

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How many kids from 'the ghetto' attended your 'best in the world' school? Just some die-hard smart people that get scholar ships doesn't mean there isn't a huge amount of intelligence being wasted on children that can only flourish with proper schooling their parents can afford.

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I would also like to add that all this smugness about how much better your schools are doesnt mean crap. Europeans should be #1, and us stupid ass, uneducated Americans should be inferior. But, we are not. Our system obviously works better, as we create the most educated people on Earth. You just hate it because a good education costs money.

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Do you want me to get out some numbers about how much your school system sucks major testicles?

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Whatever, man. Most of the "non-freedoms" you mentioned about America are indirect and subjective. To tell the truth, i dont understand the drug ban in the US. The ones in Europe are direct. DIRECT limitations of free speech. Direct limitations of medical procedures. So on and so forth.

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So getting your ass busted an put in jail for having a few grams of marijuana isn't "direct enough"?

What about Abortion? Took you quite some time to make that a freedom.

What about stem-cell research? You are so free in America, that your government is stopping valuable, potentially medicine-changing research.

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You can't deny America isn't as free as the government wants you to think it is. But you're alll buying it. Not changing anything.

Now if you will excuse me, I will enjoy my right to smoke marijuana legally. :banana:

IQ has to do with brain potential, and less to do with education, but nice try. Plus, we dont use your freaky "metric" IQ system. What, do you measure it in kilometers? :p

Screw our media. Its a joke, and the whole world knows it. But still, i havent heard breaking news from Holland.

What you have heard about our education system is stereotypical. You have been told the worst of it, and you have generalized it. Only a couple schools have more students than desks. You act like it is widespread.

My private school had nothing to do with intelligence. It had to do with daddy's paycheck. Good think my dad, former dirt poor redneck, tried hard and got his degrees. Anybody can go to college, ESPECIALLY these days. I dont care about any excuses people give, besides being mentally retarted. Here in the US, we decide to leave education up to the family rather than the government. We try not to waste resourses on quitters.


Stem cell research has nothing to do with "freedom". Again with the subjective.

Go ahead and smoke your pot. Do you honestly think i have a problem with it? Having weed illegal adds to the fun, if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

IQ has to do with brain potential, and less to do with education, but nice try. Plus, we dont use your freaky "metric" IQ system. What, do you measure it in kilometers? :p

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Yeah, it's so fucked up, our metric system. So weird, let me tell you, if you have 50 centimeter, and you add another 50 centimeter, what do you get? One meter!?! Isn't that weird? It is really confusing, because it is just like normal math.. (50+50=100)

I mean, (50 inches) + (50 inches) = 8.33333333 feet, THAT is far FAR more logically.

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Screw our media. Its a joke, and the whole world knows it. But still, i havent heard breaking news from Holland.

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According to some recent study, our media was in first place, together with Ireland and some other country. If you expect news from a 16-million-people country, I will have to dissapoint you. Even though probably we have more 'world new' per person then China, there isn't much to say.

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What you have heard about our education system is stereotypical. You have been told the worst of it, and you have generalized it. Only a couple schools have more students than desks. You act like it is widespread.

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Yeah, having only a few schools with more students then desks, sound like a great achievement. Nothing to worry about, it just in some smelly areas.

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My private school had nothing to do with intelligence. It had to do with daddy's paycheck. Good think my dad, former dirt poor redneck, tried hard and got his degrees. Anybody can go to college, ESPECIALLY these days. I dont care about any excuses people give, besides being mentally retarted. Here in the US, we decide to leave education up to the family rather than the government. We try not to waste resourses on quitters.

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Quitters? Beethoven was a totally weak pussy. Blablabla. Sounding a bit to must like a social-Darwinist for my taste there, HD. (social-darwinist = nazi, basically).

I have this weird theory that just because a child can't make it under certain circumstances it doesn't mean he doesn't still have potential. I know, it's just weird.

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Stem cell research has nothing to do with "freedom". Again with the subjective.

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Haha. Subjective? Subject-what-suits-you-at-the-moment. If anything is a freedom that should be cherished, it is the freedom to peruse scientific progress (withing ethical ranges, set up by the proper argumentation, not by religious bigots.)

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Go ahead and smoke your pot. Do you honestly think i have a problem with it? Having weed illegal adds to the fun, if you ask me.

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Yeah, I think I will take a trip to the US, get cought smoking some weed there, and then get a nice anal massage in prison from a nice big black man, while wasting the rest of my life because it's pretty hard to get a job once you been to prison. And once I DO get a job, I can enjoy random infringements of my personal privacy by random company drug tests ^__^

Oh, the joy of being so free, companies can fire you for something you took during the weekend in your own personal time, and no longer has negative effect on your job. Yaaay! :bowdown:

We are getting way off topic here, but, whatever. I never said there werent any problems with America, but we are the best. Maybe the problem with Europe is that they focus too much on the little stuff.

Concerning drug tests, it is pretty much proven that drug addicts are not the best workers. America is all about efficiency, and drug addicts are not ideal workers. That is why we drug test, not because they are illegal.

Back to communism, please. What is the driving force? The incentive? Give me something good.

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

We are getting way off topic here, but, whatever. I never said there werent any problems with America, but we are the best. Maybe the problem with Europe is that they focus too much on the little stuff.

Concerning drug tests, it is pretty much proven that drug addicts are not the best workers. America is all about efficiency, and drug addicts are not ideal workers. That is why we drug test, not because they are illegal.

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Not as far off topic as Univeral Mind saying "We were right to bomb hiroshima", I believe we got to the 2nd world war and America on like, 4 different topics. :)

Also. Yeah, America is the greatest. In putting people in jail, murder rates, people addicted to drugs not a single soul uses in Europe (coughing medicine), great over-spending, an overheated economy -just look at the mortgage-crisis-thingy lately-. Best at stuffing fat faces, best at spending energy, best at telling people they should get plastic surgery. Best at having a shitload of depressed people that swallow tons of prozac.

Every country has good sides, and bad sides. However, under the Bush administration, criticism, the very foundation of a healthy democracy, has been demonized and labeled 'unpatriotic'.

And I think that is silly. America isn't screwed on a cultural level, just mostly on a governmental level, and on the level of how people think about how their government should work. That is what I think.

Anyhow. Bashing America, while el patriots (you guys) defend it to the grave, has been funny for now. Old news :)

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Back to communism, please. What is the driving force? The incentive? Give me something good.

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Yes. Exactly. I do not recall every in this topic saying: Lets have a revolution, and by tomorrow everyone will be working joyfully for the greater good! :D:D:D. That would be pretty darn naive. I think (potential) lack of selflessness that is within every person is a Huge HUGE obstacle for such an equality-society as communism to work.

Actually, the only way to have the slightest chance of it working, is if we drastically change people's ideas about what they desire. Or if we have everything we can wish for, like if we invent holo-decks or something. Only then, perhaps, can every human being on the planet Perhaps value their own species above their personal gains. I say gains, I don't say the collective is more important then the individual, not at all. It's like, if people are Happy providing for other, if everyone feels like a dad feeding his family, only global, and everyone would be driven to really work, only then communism could work.

So actually, it can't. People just don't work this way. But hey, I never said there was any chance of it.

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Actually, I believe I made this topic for two things:

A) To debate weather communism, if it would work perfectly, would be disierable. Personally, my view of an utopia is one of complete equality, same rights, same pay, equal distribution of food, of water, of everything. It is my belief that if communism would work (but it will not for close to eternity or longer), it will be the closed form of society we can create on this planet to match a theoretical 'perfect world' (aka Utopia).

Yesch?

and B)
Weather or not the very word "Communism" just was propagandized into peoples head, especially americans that lived during the cold war, to resemble pure evil. But unlike Stalins Empire of Sucking terror, the Theory of Communism is meant to be purely good for everyone (it just doesn't work).

And I guess, that at point B), I'll have to say that Americans do seem to decline any concept bearing the name "communism" faster then other people.

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Mkwayyyyy :banana:

That last post lets me know that you really dont get America. Bush bashing is unpatriotic? Dude, its the cool thing to do now, and Republican politicians are doing it. In fact, those who support Bush are demonized, not the other way around. How could you have thought the opposite?

To the topic of being brainwashed. I think if you and i sat down at a table and talked this out over some brews, we would see that neither of us are brainwashed. This is the information age. When I post this stuff, i know i sound shallow, which comes off sounding like braniwashing, probably because it is harder to put thoughts into writing than language. I understand communism. They teach us in school what it is supposed to be. It looks good on paper, but is just not practical. Capitalism was a well formulated system that proved successful. Communism, although not "true" communism has shown nothing but failure or oppression. To me it is no contest.

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

That last post lets me know that you really dont get America. Bush bashing is unpatriotic? Dude, its the cool thing to do now, and Republican politicians are doing it. In fact, those who support Bush are demonized, not the other way around. How could you have thought the opposite?

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Republican debate recently:

Question: What do you Not like about America?
Potential Future President: Well.. ehh.. I can't really think of ANYTHING I don't like about America. (something along those lines) (he likes unemployment, small children being shot in the face, i.e.).

Also, I highly doubt that in some certain special states I will not name specifically, riding around in a 'fuck bush' automobile will make very much people cheer. But that is just my interpretation.

How often do you hear people Really criticizing America? Saying: "This political system is far from perfect!" or "we need to stop putting so many people in prison for bullshit laws about soft-drugs" or "we need to stop the religious right stopping science, proper rights for homosexuals..ect".

You can't get elected if you say don't say "GOD bless AMERICA", but instead "America isn't the greatest country on earth". Try it.

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To the topic of being brainwashed. I think if you and i sat down at a table and talked this out over some brews, we would see that neither of us are brainwashed. This is the information age. When I post this stuff, i know i sound shallow, which comes off sounding like braniwashing, probably because it is harder to put thoughts into writing than language. I understand communism. They teach us in school what it is supposed to be. It looks good on paper, but is just not practical. Capitalism was a well formulated system that proved successful. Communism, although not "true" communism has shown nothing but failure or oppression. To me it is no contest.

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Brainwashed might be a big word. But I would say some Americans seem to be very focused on these slogans the government created at some point. And like I said, it isn't that they are saying "God bless America" and "America, best and most free country in the world", but it's that they say it without Thinking. I don't think you can deny that most people don't really Think about saying those things, do they?

Also, I would like to get that I get a lot of my information for my side in this -especially in your eyes- anti-america-debate from the Internet, from Americans basically (at least, I am guessing most of my sources are American). There are a great deal of Americans that do pretty much share my ideas on some of these subjects. Much respect 2 them and shizzle. I mean, I think the true American Patriots right now are the people that want change the most. On some level, patriotism and 'supporting the troops'/waving flags/god-blessing-america, have turned into the same thing. While I think that a true patriot should be very critical of ones own country, and not just cheerfully wave that flag and praise the troops without thinking about it.
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And capitalism is a great system to grow a countries economy. I only think it should be regulated better. And it should have been regulated perhaps during the last few ages. There is a reason Africa and most of Asia and South America are poor. If we never interfered with them, they wouldn't be poor. They would just be living their own isolated existence, with their own standards. The rich west became rich over the backs of making most of the rest of the world Poor. Slave trade, stealing natural resources, stealing land. It are all very true and in my eyes very bad 'side effects' of capitalism.

But actually, I have to blame Europe for that :)

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Originally Posted by Neruo

Also, like I said, I don't see how it is a freedom to get rich, at the cost of others. The world's economy is a closed system. If someone gets rich, someone (mostly more then one) gets relatively poor. I don't see it as a virtue to live your freedom of getting rich, at the cost of others. It's like the 'freedom' to steal, or rape.

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Could you give me a list of people Bill Gates has made poor? I can give you a long list of people who have jobs because of him. He employs about a hundred millionaires, each of whom employs tons of people who make good money and spend that money, which feeds other businesses and thereby creates more wealth. Wealth creates business expansion, which creates wealth. Wealth creates wealth. Communism creates the will to do a half ass job, which screws up business, which screws up national wealth.

Communism is robbery because it takes away everything a person has except enough to get by. Communism shows major disrespect for people's property. It also steals their incentive to work hard. A lot of people's major spirit in life involves working hard all the time to make money. It is what they are made for. Communism steals that form of the human spirit. Nobody is going to live the executive life of hardcore money making if they get the same no matter what they do. People should have a right to make fortunes. Communism shows major disrespect for that. Communism is a terrible idea for many reasons.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Could you give me a list of people Bill Gates has made poor? I can give you a long list of people who have jobs because of him. He employs about a hundred millionaires, each of whom employs tons of people who make good money and spend that money, which feeds other businesses and thereby creates more wealth. Wealth creates business expansion, which creates wealth. Wealth creates wealth. Communism creates the will to do a half ass job, which screws up business, which screws up national wealth.

Communism is robbery because it takes away everything a person has except enough to get by. Communism shows major disrespect for people's property. It also steals their incentive to work hard. A lot of people's major spirit in life involves working hard all the time to make money. It is what they are made for. Communism steals that form of the human spirit. Nobody is going to live the executive life of hardcore money making if they get the same no matter what they do. People should have a right to make fortunes. Communism shows major disrespect for that. Communism is a terrible idea for many reasons.

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Life works best when people work for the society they live in, as long as the society in turn does what's best for them. A dctator of the Proletariat could install communism, but only if, as brain of the country, he did what was in turn fair to the country. However, it's fascist once he creates propaganda, and starts controlling people's lives. Communism favors independence, and freewill. The do their work and follow their dreams because theoretically a good dictator of the proletariat would stop control entirely, and federal and state taxation would stop and everything else because there would be no need for it, macromanagement would cease to exist, the businesses would run themselves.

So yes, a form of communism is the next evolution of mankind. It completely supports a form of the free market, except businesses become more like utilities. Fortunes are an act of immature greed. Materialism is an entrapment of the spirit.

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Originally Posted by DoomedOne

Life works best when people work for the society they live in, as long as the society in turn does what's best for them. A dctator of the Proletariat could install communism, but only if, as brain of the country, he did what was in turn fair to the country. However, it's fascist once he creates propaganda, and starts controlling people's lives. Communism favors independence, and freewill. The do their work and follow their dreams because theoretically a good dictator of the proletariat would stop control entirely, and federal and state taxation would stop and everything else because there would be no need for it, macromanagement would cease to exist, the businesses would run themselves.

So yes, a form of communism is the next evolution of mankind. It completely supports a form of the free market, except businesses become more like utilities. Fortunes are an act of immature greed. Materialism is an entrapment of the spirit.

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What would be the incentive for people to work hard enough and be inventive enough to create the wealth capitalism creates? How could people attain their financial dreams if what extra they do changes nothing for them?

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Originally Posted by DoomedOne

Life works best when people work for the society they live in, as long as the society in turn does what's best for them. A dctator of the Proletariat could install communism, but only if, as brain of the country, he did what was in turn fair to the country. However, it's fascist once he creates propaganda, and starts controlling people's lives. Communism favors independence, and freewill. The do their work and follow their dreams because theoretically a good dictator of the proletariat would stop control entirely, and federal and state taxation would stop and everything else because there would be no need for it, macromanagement would cease to exist, the businesses would run themselves.

So yes, a form of communism is the next evolution of mankind. It completely supports a form of the free market, except businesses become more like utilities. Fortunes are an act of immature greed. Materialism is an entrapment of the spirit.

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Nevertheless, materialism and greed are part of human nature. Our system plays on this to create a free market. Frankly, it just makes sense. And it works miracles.

Communism doesnt seem possible without propaganda. If the economy isnt going good, and people are getting pissed, it would fall apart. Communism is too fixed. Besides, you would have to hand the country over to the government. You would'nt have any say in what happens. That being said, a democracy is impossible with communism. Democracy is the greatest good since Jesus. Once again, i bring up the differences between South Korea and North Korea.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Could you give me a list of people Bill Gates has made poor? I can give you a long list of people who have jobs because of him. He employs about a hundred millionaires, each of whom employs tons of people who make good money and spend that money, which feeds other businesses and thereby creates more wealth. Wealth creates business expansion, which creates wealth. Wealth creates wealth. Communism creates the will to do a half ass job, which screws up business, which screws up national wealth.

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Haha. When windows 3.1 came out, there were Far more superior operating systems. Windows got so big, because of really good marketing. I however am not going to look up who lost his job because of that :)

Also, you again fail to see the point. Yes, bill gates probably was better for the average person in America. Yes, I keep saying this, Communism doesn't normally create such innovative people. However I am talking about a hypothetical society, where, despite being communist, it does not effect how hard people work at all.

Get that into your skull, I said it like 5 times already.

And in THAT scenario, The economy of America would have grown just as hard as it has now. You get it? Now stop using that 'blabla, communists are lazy'-typed argument, I already explained I am talking about an (probably impossible) hypothetical form of communism (where the people aren't lazy as shit).

Your main argument, because you can't stop using it, has nothing to do with the discussion. If communism wouldn't hurt our economy, it would only be better for it's people. (however, it does hurt it)

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Communism is robbery because it takes away everything a person has except enough to get by.

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This is just retarded. I mean, are you high? Watched some old 70s propaganda lately? Maybe you should try READING WHAT I WROTE DOWN. I am talking about a kind of communism where there wouldn't even be more taxes, but everyone's pay check would look (very very much) the same. That would mean the average person, and that means everyone, could afford a car, a house, a hottub, or hell I don't know what the average person can afford in America at this moment.

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Communism shows major disrespect for people's property. It also steals their incentive to work hard.

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"Get off me property!" "Jiii-Haaaa!"

I don't know or the whole 'no private property' is communism pur sang. (really a backbone of it). I personally don't see why people can't chose for themselves what land they want to buy with the money they make. How does it show disrespect for people's property?

This might surprise you, but my personal view of a good kind of communism, and I think most people's view of a good kind of communism, doesn't include forced relocations like McFacist Stalin did.

Incentive to work hard I already covered.

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A lot of people's major spirit in life involves working hard all the time to make money. It is what they are made for.

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Yeah, totally correct.

What I am saying is: " Wouldn't it be nice, it people could work that hard not for money, but work for their entire country and people with the same joy" ?

That's all I am saying. I don't see how that is half as bad as the warped, Stalin-raped idea of communism you have.

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Communism steals that form of the human spirit. Nobody is going to live the executive life of hardcore money making if they get the same no matter what they do. People should have a right to make fortunes. Communism shows major disrespect for that. Communism is a terrible idea for many reasons.

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No, you keep just saying "people don't work like that".

And you can't deny that in a society where it doesn't hurt the economy if people would be communistic, the capitalistic society would create poor people when compared to the communistic one.

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Lets try again, since you seem to fall back on the same silly arguments I covered -if I recall correctly- somewhere in the region of the first page of this topic.

# Lets Assume people would work just as hard for 'the people' as they now work for their own money.
# Thus, the amount of pay one receives does not influence how hard the person will work.
#Thus, you could pay everyone the same, without negative consequences for the overall world economy.
#Thus no poor people exist. At the level we have come we could have stopped world hunger 50 years ago.

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It just seems like a nice world, a world without poor people. But that might just be me. If it was possible, I would rather have such a world then the poverty-ridden world we live in today.

Are 3 billions starving people worth your 'freedom' to maybe get rich and powerful?

If you could start humanity over again at the start of societies, would you leave them the same, or make them less egocentric so they could create a society I would call communistic, where there is no poor, the government is there, never getting corrupt like is normal today, but to help everyone, and no-one wants to go to war (and set back everyone)?

I rather see the latter.

But it doesn't matter. It is the word that has been tied up to SO many bad words and associations in your mind that I should just rename my view of communism if I ever want to have an objective debate about it with anyone.