Thread: Your View Om Communism

Originally Posted by Intended

Again you ignore what I wrote about circumstances.

Disagreeing is ignoring?

Originally Posted by Intended

Not true. It’s more thrill than ever, if you can’t live without it.

I know from being a counsellor and from being a drug addict that your statement is false. A little bit of research would reveal the truth to you. As the obsession increases, the thrill diminishes, and the experience becomes pure maintenance. This isn't even subject to argument.

Originally Posted by Intended

No, just to make you wonder about your reasons for defending your world so strongly.

One person's drug addiction disproves the entire theory of capitalism? I don't think you were really arguing that because you believed it, but only you know for sure.

Originally Posted by Intended

It’s late to create anything now because of monopoly. Look at Unix systems, they aren’t too popular for normal users. Programs and stuff is made for Windows, some of it wouldn’t work with Unix. Anybody who created a system first and spread it very wide would be able to gain this kind of monopoly.

You were talking about people with labels that you had previously given me. Do you really want to argue otherwise?

Originally Posted by Intended

You talk on the phone because you have to? You can write letters.

So we both agree that it's not a necessity? Yes, it is often a luxury and a leisure activity.

Originally Posted by Intended

It’s late to create anything now because of monopoly. Look at Unix systems, they aren’t too popular for normal users. Programs and stuff is made for Windows, some of it wouldn’t work with Unix. Anybody who created a system first and spread it very wide would be able to gain this kind of monopoly.

Creation is over now in the United States? Sit back and watch it not be. But watch how much creation doesn't happen in North Korea.

Originally Posted by Intended

You talk as if you brush everything off. China is going to catch up with you soon, it’s a known fact, and you can’t brush it off. As for Soviet Union, I was talking of its past, saying it doesn’t exist is irrelevant.

The Soviet Union doesn't exist because its sytem was a failure. And you didn't tell me about the major corporations of China and their pioneering technology. You also didn't tell me why our poverty class is a big aristocracy compared to what they have. And sit back and watch China never have our level of technological advancement, wealth, or entertainment industry (which you said is an important aspect of a nation). Plus, look at what Chinese citizens have to endure from their government's level of power over them. China sucks.

Originally Posted by Intended

You’re changing the topic, we weren’t discussing democracy.

We were discussing socialism and communism, which are inferior systems compared to democracy in many ways, such as the level of power the government has over its people.

Originally Posted by Intended

I disagree. Things like culture or entertainment will always seem the best to those to whose country they belong to, because they aren’t familiar with the other. I’m not surprised that you consider yours best, but it’s a purely subjective point of view that has nothing to do with reality.

Man, people all over the world and in humongous numbers love our movies, musical acts, and television shows more than that of the corresponding entertainment from any other country. I know you know that's true. Tell me about the greatest musical acts and movies of China and how their popularity compares to the biggest from the United States. Look in the Guiness Book of World Records for the biggest movies and musical acts in history, and you will see that we have the movies and most of the music, while Britain has a lot of the music. Our television shows are enormous worldwide too. Do you really want to argue about this?

Originally Posted by Intended

It wasn’t stealing, it was socialism. So you sort of acknowledge that it was socialism that got them quickly into space, etc. Good.
The government collapsed for other reasons, though: as far as I know, prices for oil had much to do with it, as well as internal unease.

Socialism and communism are both forms of stealing. The Soviet Union's business was pathetic, and that had a lot to do with why they collapsed. Of course rotten economics will screw with the price of everything. It will also create internal unease. It will do many things that are terrible.

Originally Posted by Intended

If I wrote that by moral rules it’s evil you’d probably laugh, so I wrote the Church. Ok, now I write that by moral rules greed is ugly. You can’t disagree with that.

Creating an economic system for a nation and leaving greed out of the equation is immoral, as I have illustrated. Greed is a great thing for civilization, as I have illustrated. And I am not going to believe for two seconds that you are above greed.

Originally Posted by Intended

As I said, I have a rule, if you don't want to discuss something don't write about it. This thread is not about my country, there's no reason to discuss it.

We can discuss where you live. For one thing, I would like to talk about where you live and how it affects your view of the United States. Typing one or two words would have been much simpler than your long explanation for why you plead our 5th Amendment on where you live. Are you ashamed of where you live?

Do you live in Canada?

Originally Posted by Intended

It’s hardly possible for socialism to develop to communism unless all contries in the world try to do it at once. You can’t normally have no money at all in one country. Maybe in a very distant future.

That's a very extreme and unrealistic provision you have suddenly thrown into this. I don't think socialism could work under any conditions that will ever exist in our world, but if I agreed with your point, it would further my argument that socialism sucks.

Originally Posted by Intended

You create poverty and hunger in other countries by killing people and making others run away, though. As for internal fight against poverty, every country is having it with various sucess, depending on its current wealth. Many things come into play, just as in case of Ethiopian "technology", by far not only the system.

But guess who is doing the best at controlling its own poverty. That is a very important fact to consider in this. And we lead the world in liberation and foreign aid, among other things. It is because capitalism is such a powerful system against poverty.

Give me some examples of where socialism or communism has controlled poverty on the level that we do. Tell me about the most successful socialist and communist nations in history.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Disagreeing is ignoring?

Disagreeing isn't disproval, it's ignoring.

As the obsession increases, the thrill diminishes, and the experience becomes pure maintenance. This isn't even subject to argument.

As the thrill diminishes, you need more to get to the same level of thrill.

One person's drug addiction disproves the entire theory of capitalism? I don't think you were really arguing that because you believed it, but only you know for sure.

I just wonder why you care to defend the society you live in. Look, there's nobody else arguing in the thread

Yes, it is often a luxury and a leisure activity.

Luxury is rare, but almost everybody has a computer now. Times when it was a luxury are gone.

Creation is over now in the United States? Sit back and watch it not be. But watch how much creation doesn't happen in North Korea.

I don't know why you said this, it wasn't related to what I wrote. I explained why Korea or any other country isn't creating a new Operating System. And this, sorry, looks like a patriotic rave.

The Soviet Union doesn't exist because its sytem was a failure.

Sorry, were you brainwashed during the Cold war? Oil prices dropped down drastically.

you didn't tell me about the major corporations of China and their pioneering technology.

China has no need to waste time to create technology if it already exists. Wait.

You also didn't tell me why our poverty class is a big aristocracy compared to what they have.

You should've known! They did it to artificially keep low prices for their production. That's what permitted China to become rich, and what will happen later to their people we'll see.

And sit back and watch China never have our level of technological advancement, wealth, or entertainment industry (which you said is an important aspect of a nation).

Sorry, a patriotic rave again. Look at "sit back and watch China never have our level of". This doesn't resemble a discussion...

We were discussing socialism and communism, which are inferior systems compared to democracy in many ways, such as the level of power the government has over its people.

Socialism is an economical system, democracy is not. These are different things, not related to each other. There's no reason for socialism to be autho\tota\litarian, just as there's no reason for capitalism to be democratical.

Man, people all over the world and in humongous numbers love our movies, musical acts, and television shows more than that of the corresponding entertainment from any other country. I know you know that's true.

It means nothing, and it's quite normal. The product gets wide-spread if its quantities by far surpass its quantities in other countries.

Tell me about the greatest musical acts and movies of China and how their popularity compares to the biggest from the United States.

Chinese culture is one of the best in this world, because it's well-preserved. Did you know that East is very different from the West? Have you heard of enormous popularity of Eastern thought in other countries? Of things like buddhism, taoism, yoga, tai-chi, qi-gong? Well, if culture is only movies for you...
Again, if you think that only something acknowledged on international level can be called "best", that's false. Internationality dissipates cultures, because people who can't understand an alien culture will distort it.
As for movies, think what kind of propaganda movies carry. You know that movies feel different in different countries, right? That's because they carry different "message". Just an example: you don't call movies that appeal to low instincts masterpieces, although they can be very popular.
Education has a lot to do with culture, too.
But I don't wish to discuss culture with you, you've lost the cultural argument from the start by your own behaviour. Look at this:

China sucks.

What kind of educated person can say that the whole country "sucks"?

The Soviet Union's business was pathetic, and that had a lot to do with why they collapsed. Of course rotten economics will screw with the price of everything.

It was Saudi Arabia and United Arabic Emirates that screwed the prices for oil. You shouldn't speak of something you have no idea about.

Creating an economic system for a nation and leaving greed out of the equation is immoral, as I have illustrated. Greed is a great thing for civilization, as I have illustrated. And I am not going to believe for two seconds that you are above greed.

To be ungreedy is immoral? Great. If you can't even believe that there are ungreedy people, I feel sorry for you. I know a lot of such people, just as well as I know greedy people.

We can discuss where you live. For one thing, I would like to talk about where you live and how it affects your view of the United States. Typing one or two words would have been much simpler than your long explanation for why you plead our 5th Amendment on where you live. Are you ashamed of where you live?

No, thanx, we've discussed two countries already, and you showed your discussing abilities. You revealed no knowledge about them and even said "China sucks" about China. I have no desire to discuss my country with someone who'll distort everything about it.

That's a very extreme and unrealistic provision you have suddenly thrown into this.

That's not me. That was Karl Marx if I'm not mistaken...
Everything that I said about how capitalism turns into socialism and turns into communism is not my theory, as well as how communism can't happen only in one country. I'm not smart enough to make such assumptions on my own.

I don't think socialism could work under any conditions that will ever exist in our world

Proof, please.

But guess who is doing the best at controlling its own poverty. That is a very important fact to consider in this. And we lead the world in liberation and foreign aid, among other things.

By liberation and foreign aid do you mean killing people and making others poor to get richer yourself? Sure, a good cover in order to control internal poverty. Now I could jump to an interesting conclusion and say that a powerful capitalism always turns into faschism.

Give me some examples of where socialism or communism has controlled poverty on the level that we do. Tell me about the most successful socialist and communist nations in history.

Communism has never existed, and you mention it. It shows you still can't understand what it is even though I posted about it, and I must try to prove something to you?

I understand why you aren't posting anything anymore. And really, I agree.
I feel there's no point in talking further.
Let's just conclude. Sorry, but you showed that you hardly understand what this thread is about:
1) you compared socialism and democracy, although democracy isn't an economical system and they can't be compared at all (you said "socialism is inferiour to democracy", which sounds absurd), i.e. you don't know what these things are;
2) you asked to give you examples of existing socialistic or communistic successful countries, although communism never existed, which means you don't know what communism is;
3) you aren't aware of facts about China and USSR, and still you tried to argue against these countries.

You've already lost argument anyway:
Let me remind,
Your argument was that technological advance proves that the economical system of the most economically successful country is better. I reminded you that socialistic USSR sent the first man into space. Let me also remind you that they were not industrialized until socialism came, which means the full industrialization happened and the first man got sent into space in about 40 years overall. If you add ww2 to it, which dealt huge damage to the country, you can shorten this time: the war ended in 1945, the first man got into space in 1961. (Full industrialization took other countries about 100 years). I also took China as example, this country is predicted to become the most powerful country soon. They chose renewed reforms in 1979, 28 years from now. So using your own technologically based argument now, I can say that socialism is the best economical system.
But I don't think you can only look at technology while deciding such things, industrialization wasn't always present in history. People need many other things apart from technology.
I won this technological argument, now if you still want to argue that capitalism is better you cannot do it based on technological advance.

Both of you are right. This conversation has become very diluted. There is one main point.

Capitalism is ever-evolving. It changes with the will of the people. The light-speed US mobilization of WW2, ending the great depression is a perfect example. And for the US, we have a GREAT social structure. The majority of Americans are middle class.

Communism is too structured. It cannot change with the times. Combine that with the neglect of human nature, and you get the Soviet Union. Well, the "former" Soviet Union.

And for future reference, China is NOT communist anymore. They have switched to a more capitalist approach, and that is why they are catching up so fast.

Capitalism is great, and every country that uses it becomes great. Germany came from ashes with a wall down the middle of it, to greatness. I contribute that to capitalism.

I still cant understand why some people are so preoccupied with making everybody else happy rather than making themselves happy. Is it really about making everyone equal? To me the freedom to do-or-die is better than no freedom.

Intended, I have a life outside of this website, so I didn't post here yesterday. Stop jumping to conclusions. That is about all you have done in our conversation. I am bored out of my mind with responding to your 30 bits at a time threads, and this conversation has gotten very repetitive and is little more than a game of chasing your rationalizations. For example, your first sentence from two posts ago...

Originally Posted by Intended

Disagreeing isn't disproval, it's ignoring.

Disproving involves disagreeing. See, this conversations has gotten so absurd it's not even worth getting that much more into. Then you told me about more of your assumptions about drug addiction. You are arguing with somebody who has been through it. Have you even thought about that? When a drug addict relapses, the first high is the best high he has until he recovers and then relapses again. That first high is never reached during the binge that follows the relapse, and the effects of the drug become a matter of maintenance and very little pleasure, if any. The rest of your post is like that, and it is just silly. I'll make a few summary points.

Communism has been tried to the extent that anybody would even dare try it, and it has been a failure 100% of the time. The same goes for socialism. But capitalism kicks ass and, most relevant to this conversation, controls poverty better than any other economic system. Do you really think it is a coincidence that the United States is the wealthiest civilization in history? With democracy comes capitalism. When it comes down to it, people generally don't want the government to rob the shit out of them. Democracy is not the opposite of socialism, but the capitalism that tends to come with it is. The United States is a democratic republic, and again, we have the best system in the history of the world. Your rationalizations like, "Uh, but Taoism came from China and it's interesting," don't counter that point. Calling me patriotic doesn't counter the point either. When a socialist or communist country EVER has a system that fights poverty better than our system fights it, especially one that keeps resulting in luxuries you enjoy (such as computer technology, obviously) let me know. You admit that it has not happened yet. Also, let me know about some awesome Chinese movies and musical acts if there ever are any. I didn't see any in the list I requested. That won't happen because China sucks. So until then, my real world facts stand and your speculations have not been proven. Have fun in the country you are too ashamed of to name.

Half/Dreaming,

I still cant understand why some people are so preoccupied with making everybody else happy rather than making themselves happy.

If nobody should care for making everybody happy, than why should anybody care for making you happy?
All the rest were just cliches, you'd have to actually study these things to understand why they're wrong.

Universal Mind, you've showed your ignorance. Sorry, but I have no desire to waste time and discuss such things with someone who only caught their names in one-sided propaganda and keeps repeating propaganda sentences without listening to you.
That's just a little proof:

Communism has been tried to the extent that anybody would even dare try it, and it has been a failure 100% of the time. The same goes for socialism.

How many times do I have to say, communism never existed on this Earth?
It's just one of the facts you can't understand (because of being too brainwashed?) even though I've said it already. And they're vital, you can't discuss such topics if you have no idea of them and how they function. Sorry, but it's not my idea to argue with ignorant people full of propaganda cliches. A bit rude, perhaps, but such is the sad truth.

The United States is a democratic republic, and again, we have the best system in the history of the world.

this is depressing as hell...hopefully its not true. All this history and this is the best we can do? fuck.

anyways I really don't like communism or capitalism.

"All the ideology makers (Smith, Marx etc etc) have serious differences over how to divvy up the spoils of power. Just as clearly, none of them have any objection to power as such and all of them want to keep us working. "

Originally Posted by Intended

Universal Mind, you've showed your ignorance. Sorry, but I have no desire to waste time and discuss such things with someone who only caught their names in one-sided propaganda and keeps repeating propaganda sentences without listening to you.
That's just a little proof:

How many times do I have to say, communism never existed on this Earth?
It's just one of the facts you can't understand (because of being too brainwashed?) even though I've said it already. And they're vital, you can't discuss such topics if you have no idea of them and how they function. Sorry, but it's not my idea to argue with ignorant people full of propaganda cliches. A bit rude, perhaps, but such is the sad truth.

I repeat what is not even close to being successfully countered. So I will repeat it again. The United States has the greatest system in history. Our capitalism, which results from our democratic-republic system, fights poverty better than any other system there has ever been. And you can't say that China, the U.S.S.R., Cuba, North Vietnam, North Korea, and Eastern Europe were never communist to any extent. I guess you know and the rest of the world doesn't. If it were true that communism has never existed on any level, might it be because it is such a dumbass idea? And not one socialist country has come even close to the success of our system. I know you despise that fact, but your despising doesn't make it not a fact. And like I said, let me know some day when there is a real world national example of the major success of communism or socialism. Until then, I will disagree with your speculations regarding how there can be large scale incentive without greed.