U.s Is Going To Fall

*Warning to all this is just my opinion and views!*

In my personal opinion i do not think the US will last much longer, i think Americans (i am a American) are becoming too Dependant on the government, we were created as a government of the people, but how much power to we actually have anymore? we do not decide if we send our people to war, we do not decide if a president should get impeached. i don't think the U.S will fall anytime soon but i think it is heading there...

these are just my views, feel free to comment.

I think your right.
We have talked about this a hundred different ways. I don't think any current government is in place to with stand the test of time. I personally think our form had the best chance had it gone the path our founding fathers had wished.
We had and still have some tools to keep the Gov. in check. We are loosing those powers ever so slightly.
The people have a voice. They just don't use it. And sadly when they do it is often an informative one. :?

But in the mean time --- Let Freedom Ring :!:

All great nations fall eventually. (Find me one that's still around from 0BC, you won't). Still, people have been predicting the fall of superpowers all their lives and America hasn't really blown up yet. I'd bet on a safe ride for a while yet.

I agree with your comment in regards to the voice oft he people
they dont hve one, well they do,
but not a very loud one

But i nregards to this casuing the fall of the US
i disagree
morally it beomces weaker i nmy eyes
yet economically, democracy is a set of chains
The circumstance sin America actually allow for a greater superpower
not a lesser one
although I cant see the US falling, i can see it having to compromise its position as sole supoerpower
not falling, but a lessening of its status
Imran

Well, with the "new" congress, and with Bush getting booted in 2 years or less, hopefully the U.S. will get back on it's feet. Bush is REALLY screwing things up. It's government's greed and ignorant attitude that's getting us screwed over.

I wouldn't bet on the fall of America anytime soon. Sure, it might happen, and that would be pretty interesting. And you can bet it will eventually happen, as it always does. But from what I've seen, America will still be around for at least a little while, just not in the way the world is used to. It certainly is transitioning into something really shitty, but really shitty facsist dictatorship states have ways of hanging around for a while, especially if its history is rooted in freedom and was once a beacon of hope for the entire world.

To me, America as we know it died on September 11, 2001. It's just an entirely new creature now, and it will only change more in the years to come. But fall apart completely? It might happen soon, but it's impossible to predict.

America as it was intended by it's founders, a state for the people, that has already fallen. There is little left of that. America is molested by corporation and government aristocracy. (and kleptocracy).

I think America is an excellent country. The war on drugs has gone too far in eating up some of the Bill of Rights, but I really believe it is temporary. The war on drugs is getting more and more transparent as time goes on, and I think it will end in the next few decades. Illegal immigration and disfunctional population growth are major problems, but it is a matter of time before people wake up and see that something needs to be done. The pendelum swings back and forth. We are nowhere near not being able to vote politicians out of office. The first step into that territory will be a really hard tennis racket slam at the pendelum. The people still have the ultimate power, and we are nowhere near the danger zone of losing that. We're not going anywhere. If we were a failed country already or even near it, we would not be the richest and most powerful nation in the world.

are you sure we are the most richest and most powerful nation in the world? I think we need to concider where all the money and power is going, surely not to the average american.

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Originally Posted by juroara

are you sure we are the most richest and most powerful nation in the world? I think we need to concider where all the money and power is going, surely not to the average american.
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We are a capitalist country, for the most part. The money is supposed to go to the people who earn it. They buy things and fuel business. It is the reason for our success. I wish the rest of the world would be that way.

you dont think the average american has earned their money? is there a real good reason why a CEO's income should be 400 times higher than anyone elses? there are other capitalist countries where the average person has a lot more power with their money than we do.

the value of our money has gone down. and if you adjust incomes to interest, the average american has gotten poorer and poorer. about two decades ago women didnt need to work to support the family, now in the average american family it takes two incomes to support it.

Who else likes history a lot?

Who else has noticed empires tend to fall?

Who else thinks the US will be no exception?

If you don't raise your hand, you don't count as having a brain.

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Originally Posted by juroara

you dont think the average american has earned their money? is there a real good reason why a CEO's income should be 400 times higher than anyone elses? there are other capitalist countries where the average person has a lot more power with their money than we do.

the value of our money has gone down. and if you adjust incomes to interest, the average american has gotten poorer and poorer. about two decades ago women didnt need to work to support the family, now in the average american family it takes two incomes to support it.
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I didn't say the average American has not earned his money. I was making the point that it is not the government's job to redistribute wealth. We have a system where people usually get what they earn. That is how things should be. Tampering with that screws things up.

What CEO's make is up to the shareholders. If they get paid that much, they must be very valuable. We have a system where every healthy person can work toward achieving being that valuable for a company.

I am not familiar with the statistics on average families here having less power with their money than in other countries and the Americans of 20 years ago. That is the first I have heard. If the average American is poorer now than 20 years ago, it is because of social programs and the disfunctional population growth they support and encourage. The disfunctional screw up the averages. I hope the best for them. Our stuff costs more here than in other countries because we have the best stuff. We are in fact the richest nation in the world. I don't like saying that because I want all countries to adopt our economic system. I wish our system didn't stand out at all.

Universal Mind, you really make me wonder: On a lot point I can see that you think just about the same way as I do, like on religion and such. However, your American-indoctrination does make me wonder or I might be just as indoctrinated, and just don't notice it.

America is a great country for all those people willing to give up their humanity.

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Originally Posted by Neruo

America is a great country for all those people willing to give up their humanity.
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You won't catch me doing that. If my country ever really does get ruined, get ready for me because I have said for a long time that if things ever do go wrong enough here I'm moving to Amsterdam. I just question whether I would need to hide my Southern accent and say I hate Bush to avoid getting chased out of town. Outside of that, I might fit right in.

we need a new system

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Originally Posted by Universal

You won't catch me doing that. If my country ever really does get ruined, get ready for me because I have said for a long time that if things ever do go wrong enough here I'm moving to Amsterdam. I just question whether I would need to hide my Southern accent and say I hate Bush to avoid getting chased out of town. Outside of that, I might fit right in.
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Maybe if you would get a job, you might notice the difference. Of maybe not, because it is hard to notice you are Not getting fired because there hardly are any unions, like in the usa.

Also, it might shock you that politicians do not call each other crackwhore and prostitute-rapist.

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Originally Posted by Neruo

Also, it might shock you that politicians do not call each other crackwhore and prostitute-rapist.
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Damn. That sounds boring.

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Originally Posted by Universal

You won't catch me doing that. If my country ever really does get ruined, get ready for me because I have said for a long time that if things ever do go wrong enough here I'm moving to Amsterdam. I just question whether I would need to hide my Southern accent and say I hate Bush to avoid getting chased out of town. Outside of that, I might fit right in.
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So you haven't lost your humanity yet eh?....

"What CEO's make is up to the shareholders. If they get paid that much, they must be very valuable. We have a system where every healthy person can work toward achieving being that valuable for a company."

You are to say that your value lies in your worth to a company or corporation? You're already lost. I guess the "unhealthy" person is at a loss ..elitist. But maybe you just need to define "healthy" , while you're at it why not define "normal" for me? or "american"?

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are you sure we are the most richest and most powerful nation in the world? I think we need to concider where all the money and power is going, surely not to the average american.[/b]

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The richest countries are china and japan. The most powerful nation is debateble as we nuclear weapon given to most countries power doesnt come into it MAD does.

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Who else likes history a lot?

Who else has noticed empires tend to fall?

Who else thinks the US will be no exception?

If you don't raise your hand, you don't count as having a brain.[/b]

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I do think US will fall when the petrol runs out. It economy is based on oil and the power to use it, they are largest in debt and when oil runs out even china cant save the US. Oh yeah if it wasent for china the USA would have collaspe long ago, because they are paying of their debts.

The U.S. will most likely fall eventually, as all of the great powers in history do. I think they will be able to remain a dominant power for at least 50 more years, though.

I detect a vague anti-capitalist sentiment in this thread. To sum up my thoughts on the topic: capitalism may not be the fairest system on the planet (which doesn't bother me, since most of the perceived injustice is in the folks who can't be bothered to get off their arses anyway/expect everyone to have the same wage as them) but hey, it's the only ideology that really works!

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Originally Posted by Kaniaz

I detect a vague anti-capitalist sentiment in this thread. To sum up my thoughts on the topic: capitalism may not be the fairest system on the planet (which doesn't bother me, since most of the perceived injustice is in the folks who can't be bothered to get off their arses anyway/expect everyone to have the same wage as them) but hey, it's the only ideology that really works!
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I'd say this pretty well sums it up for me, too.

I forget the figures exactly, so these might be way off, but economists say China is only peforming at something like 1/8 of its potential. Add that to the fact that the Chinese currency is pegged artificially low right now, and you've got yourselves the makings of the world's only superpower.

I like to eat things. :)

Eventually, all nations end. Look at Greece, and Rome.

But it's not gonna be any time soon.

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Originally Posted by becomingagodo

The richest countries are china and japan. The most powerful nation is debateble as we nuclear weapon given to most countries power doesnt come into it MAD does.
I do think US will fall when the petrol runs out. It economy is based on oil and the power to use it, they are largest in debt and when oil runs out even china cant save the US. Oh yeah if it wasent for china the USA would have collaspe long ago, because they are paying of their debts.
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Ok you are wrong on both counts. China is still a third world country although it is developing at a phenomenal rate. 90% of the Chinese population are rural farmers who make barely anything. The U.S. economy is also much larger than China's and more stable for that matter. Although the Chinese government has bought a lot of U.S. debt, they depend on us just as much as we depend on them. If China tried to call in all our debt the value of the dollar would plummet and the billions of dollars in U.S. treasury bonds that China has would be worthless. Sure, they could mess up our economy but they would just be destroying themselves.

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Originally Posted by becomingagodo

The richest countries are china and japan. [/b]

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Where did you get that from? Japan would for sure fall behind the U.S. I would say it has to be either Luxembourg or Switzerland, maybe Norway. I'm just guessing now but I'm sure it's one of those countries.

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Originally Posted by Conforming

So you haven't lost your humanity yet eh?....

"What CEO's make is up to the shareholders. If they get paid that much, they must be very valuable. We have a system where every healthy person can work toward achieving being that valuable for a company."

You are to say that your value lies in your worth to a company or corporation? You're already lost. I guess the "unhealthy" person is at a loss ..elitist. But maybe you just need to define "healthy" , while you're at it why not define "normal" for me? or "american"?
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Man, you really leaped to a conclusion on that one. I was talking about their values TO THEIR COMPANIES, not their general value as people.

People with severe mental illnesses and so forth are not able to become major corporate CEO's. Do you want to claim that they can? I believe in government assistance for people who truly cannot help themselves. Do you? Why? Oh, because they can't help themselves? Then why do you think they can become major corporate CEO's?

And when the Hell did I talk about "normal"?

to say 'healthy' people is just as incongruous as using the term "normal". this is what im getting at, where do you draw the line to determine who is eligible? A system that flaunts those who can most easily susseed also tramples on those who do not have the same advantages (an im also talkng about people other than the most extreme case that you liked to point out - mental retardation)

And before you go on asking me questions in your replys and continue asking questions based on what you would assume i'd say, do both of us a favour and DON'T. This just makes you look like you're holding an arguement with yourself. But it seems that you're already closed off enough to not care

China has 10 times more free capital than the US and at least 3 times the population.

Anyone notice how China is conveniently staying out of all the recent miltary activity? They're just waiting for their time. Which will probably come in the next 20 years.

Unfortunately I don't think that the US is going to go down quietly....so when the bombs start to fall, I'll be the guy running toward them.

This is such an interesting time to be alive, everyone has to agree on that. At least we can all agree that the coming years are of immense importance to the future of the world. I'm just glad I'm around to see it, whatever it may be.

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Originally Posted by Conforming

to say 'healthy' people is just as incongruous as using the term "normal". this is what im getting at, where do you draw the line to determine who is eligible? A system that flaunts those who can most easily susseed also tramples on those who do not have the same advantages (an im also talkng about people other than the most extreme case that you liked to point out - mental retardation)

And before you go on asking me questions in your replys and continue asking questions based on what you would assume i'd say, do both of us a favour and DON'T. This just makes you look like you're holding an arguement with yourself. But it seems that you're already closed off enough to not care
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I didn't mention retardation. I mentioned mental illness, which comes in a great deal of forms. There are also people with physical limitations that don't allow them to work. So what do you suggest?

There is in fact such a thing as unhealthy people. There is a range, and it is hard to determine where it begins, but there is such a thing. There are medical doctors and psychologists who work for the government and determine who is elligible for disability income. Every spot in the country is covered by that system. Do you deny that? What do you suggest the system do with those that are cosidered too incompetent to be self-sufficient? Should we use some kind of quota system that forces companies to allow them to be CEO's? Talk to me.

My conversation with myself was there to illustrate the ends of where you may have been going. That is why there were question marks at the ends of the suppositions. If you don't think the officially incompetent need government assistance, you are free to say so. If you think they are capable of being CEO's, you are free to say so. I haven't seen either from you so far. I'm not sure what you are getting at with all of this. I see your anger, but not your articulation.

Hey, let's face it, the US is going to fall, anyone disagree?

Because I have infinity worth of history that will disprove you.

they've been saying this since the 70's... 30 years later we're still here.

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Originally Posted by 3FLryan

Hey, let's face it, the US is going to fall, anyone disagree?

Because I have infinity worth of history that will disprove you.
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not in your lifetime.

I've never lived in America, but having spent all life in the shadow of American culture as is most of the English speaking world I do have an opinion on this.

I don't think the U.S. is going to fall in the sense of a revolutionary collapse of it's society and institutions. But very few great civilizations have ever fallen like that, they usually just kind of change into something else and fade away.

I do think it's glory days as the great champion of Western freedom are coming to a close, but the West as a whole is going to change into something very different.

You just can't have the same sort of individual freedom we've become accustomed to in an age where a weapon that can destroy a city can be carried in a suitcase. Things are gonna get more and more Big Brother-like as long as American cities are targets, and as long as Amercia leads the way, it's cities are always going to be targets.

Anyway, that's a non-American's opinion

Wow.

How relevent is it if America falls my lifetime or not? If you read my posts, you would see that I already said America would not fall in my lifetime. Congrats. You said nothing.

America as the ideal does not exist anymore.

Oh crap. :oops:

This is embarrasing.

This post is edited coz I made this real long reply to 3FLryan thinking he was saying the above to me!

Just for the record, 3FLryan:
I agree with you on pretty much everything said so far.

Should read properly before I reply.
Still kinda new at this...

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Originally Posted by 3FLryan

Wow.

How relevent is it if America falls my lifetime or not? If you read my posts, you would see that I already said America would not fall in my lifetime. Congrats. You said nothing.

America as the ideal does not exist anymore.
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Well then congratulations
Youve said NOTHING
all superpowers, all nations fall at some time
it is the nature of nations
they rise they fall
they rise they fall
So your statement means nothing.
If you wer predicting a very recent date, then you wuld hav emade a sttement worth dicussing
I would have disagreed but you would ahve at least made a statement

Imran

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Originally Posted by imran_p

Well then congratulations
Youve said NOTHING
all superpowers, all nations fall at some time
it is the nature of nations
they rise they fall
they rise they fall
So your statement means nothing.
If you wer predicting a very recent date, then you wuld hav emade a sttement worth dicussing
I would have disagreed but you would ahve at least made a statement

Imran
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No I disagree how are you going to compare past events with current events? Yes there were powerful nations that did fall in the past but they are not to be compared with nations of today, and especially no comparison with the U.S. There was never a single nation that had the strength and might to obliterate this planet 10x's over. Throughout the decades of the Cold War, the United States and the Soviet Union both lived with a godlike nuclear capacity to obliterate the cosmos, along with a fear of being annihilated by the enemy power. Now America alone possesses that world-destroying capacity, and post-Soviet Russia no longer looms as a nuclear or superpower adversary. We have yet to grasp the full impact of this exclusive capacity to blow up anyone or everything, but its reverberations are never absent in any part of the world.
This looms over the "Entire Earth" The United States is not going to lose it's position as the World's Super Power no time soon, If ever for that matter.

(Reticently poking my head back into the discussion after my earlier embarresing blog-blunder)

I would toatally agree that America is the most powerful nation on the planet right now.
I also agree that we are living in a time that is incomparable with any other.
When else in history has a nation with the power to obliterate the planet also been so vulnerable itself?

Imagine if the Roman Empire at the height of its power was at the same time vulnerable to having it's capital devastated by a small group of individuals with some vials of liquid or a single crate-sized device.
It's really ironic and really scary at the same time.

That being said, a nation like the U.S. doesn't get to that level of power just by accident.
America has faced some pretty big threats in the past and I'm sure it'll take a lot more than terrorist organizations to bring it down.
If anything, like all the great world powers of the past, American society itself is probably its own worst enemy.

reminded me of Dune

House Corrino, the Emperors House, was the strongest house, yet it could not match the power of the other houses combined against it

and there within lies the balance

the proletariat will never become conscious of their power

"to rebel they first must become conscious but they will never become conscious unless they rebel"

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Originally Posted by Conforming

"to rebel they first must become conscious but they will never become conscious unless they rebel"
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Now that's DEEP! :shock:

Swiss cheese is the only kind of cheese that you can bite into, and miss. :)

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Originally Posted by imran_p

Well then congratulations
Youve said NOTHING
all superpowers, all nations fall at some time
it is the nature of nations
they rise they fall
they rise they fall
So your statement means nothing.
If you wer predicting a very recent date, then you wuld hav emade a sttement worth dicussing
I would have disagreed but you would ahve at least made a statement

Imran
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Imran, I'm not so dense as to think I am saying something profound with my statement. But I'm just not so sure how many people actually think about the possibility that the US will one day, MAYBE someday not so far away, not be around. Of course, I've said nothing to you, because you think about that kind of thing. All I wanted to do is point out something I don't think many people think about.

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Originally Posted by 3FLryan

Wow.

How relevent is it if America falls my lifetime or not? If you read my posts, you would see that I already said America would not fall in my lifetime. Congrats. You said nothing.

America as the ideal does not exist anymore.
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so... you're arguing that america's reign of power will not last for the entire expanse of time that this universe is capable of?

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please read my response to you comment, it would be a learning experience for you[/b]

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you're right it was a learning experience for me... now i know not to take you seriously. thanks.

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Whenever I see a police car, I flick it off.

Yeah, I'm gonna get in a lot of trouble some day. [/b]

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that's the mentality that will keep you from being taken seriously.

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Whenever I see a police car, I flick it off.

Yeah, I'm gonna get in a lot of trouble some day.[/b]

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Wow, that's nice. It increasingly worries me how so many people seem to view police officers as something other than human beings. I really feel for those guys sometimes.

What happened to your banana head, Kaniaz? :(

we have the most bombs. no one would touch us; they know we can turn the whole side of the world they live on to dust. the only people we have to be afraid of are the extremist Muslims that actually want to do die fighting America. everyone else wants to stay alive, so they won't fuck with us.

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Originally Posted by Alucinor

we have the most bombs. no one would touch us; they know we can turn the whole side of the world they live on to dust. the only people we have to be afraid of are the extremist Muslims that actually want to do die fighting America. everyone else wants to stay alive, so they won't fuck with us.
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Don't worry, America will fuck itself :) You are already penetrating your butt cheeks of fat to reach America's asshole right now :)

Wow Neruo. I have to say, one of these days you've got to clue me into your clearly enlightened beliefs.

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Originally Posted by Kaniaz

Wow Neruo. I have to say, one of these days you've got to clue me into your clearly enlightened beliefs.
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Really? Ah way cool man! :) Glad I could help you!

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Originally Posted by Alucinor

we have the most bombs. no one would touch us; they know we can turn the whole side of the world they live on to dust. the only people we have to be afraid of are the extremist Muslims that actually want to do die fighting America. everyone else wants to stay alive, so they won't fuck with us.
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RETARD[u]

Now on the topic of 3FLryan saying that the US wont fall within his lifetime.
Pary tell me what are you prophesising, that the US will fall at some point in the future?
Doesnt exaclty make you a clairvoyant does it?
I must ask you, waht do you mean by fall?
They will no longer be a world power?
They will be wiped off the map?
The current system will be overthrown and the US will no longer be a democracy?

Quite Simply, your posts are too ambiguous.

Imran

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Originally Posted by Ne

Now that's DEEP! :shock:
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i wish i said it.
You can thank Mr. Orwell for that one.

Than you Mr. Orwell. Now that's DEEP! :shock:

The thing that really annoys me is people who live outside of country do talk a lot of shit about it, but the whole world practically depends on its existance. It's just to bad that the people that run this country are not doing a good job of it.

Remove America from the picture and world economy... is fucked.

Hopefully the actual fall will be very gradual - that way the rest of world can adjust.

It would be the same effect if we removed China, or Britian, or any other large power. The US is not the only exception.

That is true, though the effect would not be as large as losing the only superpower.

If you remove China for example - that's 1 billion people gone - a ton of manual labor is lost.

... but you still have the superpower there to try and make things right (assuming there's people who are smart that run the country). The US would re-open tons of old factories, and temporarily would become an industrial self-sufficient nation. There are enough unemployed to run machines to cover enough of what was lost. Also, you would see other countries like India for example start upping their output.

Now reverse it - the is gone. 300 million people - pretty much the country that most industrial nations get a lot of their revenue from - gone. Does China take the place of the US and save the world economy?

I could only see China perhaps using ITS military next with no restraint holding them back..a little too conspiracy i know.
But all in all, they do suply most of the US with their cheap labour.
Ive got a question for you though...
Have you heard of the US dollar being next to useless without the presure they have on the OPEC trading their oil in US dollars? I realize that in the worlds perception they are a superpower but without that pressure and their dollar plummiting, where would that leave them? Would they still have enough production or output to sustain their nation (with most of their production being done overseas)?

It seems that there are many more contributing factors to a nation going economically bankrupt. Would the labourers then become the wealthy as the rest of the population cannot even establish a remedial job in factory production? A new poverity line would have to be created well below what we consider poverity today

thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Conforming

Have you heard of the US dollar being next to useless without the presure they have on the OPEC trading their oil in US dollars?
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That's new to me and very interesting if it's true. Where did you hear that?
I think, if that's true, the very fact that the U.S. can force any single country (sometimes groups of countries) to tow their line is an indication of their power.
Great powers in the past have always pressured others in economic issues It's part of the Great Power's job description.
It's also in the nature of great powers to be at their most vulberable when they are most powerful.
Everyone wants a pop at the king pin, and he's got further to fall than anyone else.

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Would they still have enough production or output to sustain their nation (with most of their production being done overseas)?
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I think the situation is getting very fragile. Not just for the U.S. but for all the West, as the most industrialized countries turn increasingly to outside sources for their basic requirements to sustain their populations and infrastructures.

Rome starting doing something similar, importing huge amounts grain to sustain it's population when it couldn't supply the demand itself. It was an early sign of a civilization that had outgrown its ability to maneage itself.

Why do we keep looking to Rome for an accurate simulation/estimate of what could happen in our future when so much has changed since then? For example, we don't use aqueducts, the internet, dynamite, nuclear weapons, tanks, globalisation, mass media, nuclear power, genetic engineering, fertilisers, chemicals, United Nations etc to name a few of the minor differences. I honestly think that would change the playing field a lot.

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Originally Posted by Kaniaz

Why do we keep looking to Rome for an accurate simulation/estimate of what could happen in our future when so much has changed since then? For example, we don't use aqueducts, the internet, dynamite, nuclear weapons, tanks, globalisation, mass media, nuclear power, genetic engineering, fertilisers, chemicals, United Nations etc to name a few of the minor differences. I honestly think that would change the playing field a lot.
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I totally agree.

We're not going anywhere, folks. Sorry! :-P

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Originally Posted by Kaniaz

Why do we keep looking to Rome for an accurate simulation/estimate of what could happen in our future when so much has changed since then? For example, we don't use aqueducts, the internet, dynamite, nuclear weapons, tanks, globalisation, mass media, nuclear power, genetic engineering, fertilisers, chemicals, United Nations etc to name a few of the minor differences. I honestly think that would change the playing field a lot.
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Exactly. Looking to Rome for the American comparison is just a lazy cop-out for those wanting to make an argument. We need to use the facts available today, and some of magination, to provide a bit of insight on what may happen in the future. Comparing Rome is at most is a succinct way of pointing out the dangers prevalent in American society.

I do agree that the fall of this country is near. Soon we will have a stranglehold on resources, and that is bound to be disastrous. Also, next year for the first time the US is getting national IDs, which is an alarming example to me of how people are willing to give up freedom to allow the government to fight phantom "terrorism".

Not I.

until you are not allowed to buy or sell without an "ID" (RFID)
Until you cannot drive or have a job without one
Until you cannot own property without one
Then what?

This process will be accepted by the younger and younger generations in the coming decades
through a glamourizing process and making it the "new easy""new in" thing...look at cellphones, and the
youth craze that has instilled in a generation in a recently short amount of time. The same will be for RFID
chips...The NEW new national ID.

Heres a link for it showing how 'elite' and 'glamourous' it can be
( MOOOMMMMMMMMMY!!! I WANNNNNT ONNNEEEE!!!!):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3697940.stm

http://www.rfidbuzz.com/news/2004/chip_the_vip.html

This is yet another step toward a great world

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaniaz

Why do we keep looking to Rome for an accurate simulation/estimate of what could happen in our future when so much has changed since then? For example, we don't use aqueducts, the internet, dynamite, nuclear weapons, tanks, globalisation, mass media, nuclear power, genetic engineering, fertilisers, chemicals, United Nations etc to name a few of the minor differences. I honestly think that would change the playing field a lot.
[/b]

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Major Point :goodjob2: I was trying to explain that earlier, it seems so many people were trying to draw reference to a time period that is highly irrelevant to our current time and status quo of power that is today.

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until you are not allowed to buy or sell without an "ID" (RFID)
Until you cannot drive or have a job without one
Until you cannot own property without one
Then what?[/b]

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'Til Death of course.

In this world, that shouldn't be long. Anger shall eat me from the inside out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaniaz

Why do we keep looking to Rome for an accurate simulation/estimate of what could happen in our future when so much has changed since then? For example, we don't use aqueducts, the internet, dynamite, nuclear weapons, tanks, globalisation, mass media, nuclear power, genetic engineering, fertilisers, chemicals, United Nations etc to name a few of the minor differences. I honestly think that would change the playing field a lot.
[/b]

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It isn't accurate. But both in rome and in America, the people in power started to fuck up. In rome that lead to it's end, it might happen in America. That really is the symbolic to me.

Not like it is 'just the roman empire'. The argument is derived from the base of 'power corrupts'. That is the bottom line to me. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

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Originally Posted by Neruo

It isn't accurate. But both in rome and in America, the people in power started to fuck up.
[/b]

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...opretty much the only reason I used the Rome analogy. Think everyone would agree that Rome is way different, but it's the easiest (laziest?) comparison to draw.

Ego capio ad donum tuus caput..

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Originally Posted by DeadDollKitty

Ego capio ad donum tuus caput..
[/b]

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From the 6 years of latin I have had, I would say that you said something like: 'I ... at home your head'..

lol what?

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Originally Posted by Never

to allow the government to fight phantom "terrorism"
[/b]

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Huh? There is no terrorist threat? Where do you get that? What is your theory on what Al Qaeda, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbollah are about? Are they ice cream companies disguising themselves as terrorists who hold suicide bombings against us "infidels" as the highest honor achievable by humans? Does Al Qaeda not really have the goal of making Americans and Israelis extinct and forcing the rest of the world to become Muslim? Are you completely at ease with the possibility of one of those groups getting their hands on a WMD? Why do you think there is no terrorist threat? Please convince me so I can stop worrying. You have no idea how much I would love to agree with you.

I think once george bush leaves office we will change, but if our new presidents pulls all of those troops out of iraq then the world will see us as weak. if we cant finish what we start then other enemy's of the US may begin seeings chances to attack...

Hopefully hillary clinton does not become president, as soon as she haves a period she will launch nukes.

and i just thought of somthing, if she does become president the last 4 presidents would be : bush, clinton, bush , clinton.

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Originally Posted by Volcon

Hopefully hillary clinton does not become president, as soon as she haves a period she will launch nukes.
[/b]

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I can see her shooting them at Congress.

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Originally Posted by Volcon

and i just thought of somthing, if she does become president the last 4 presidents would be : bush, clinton, bush , clinton.
[/b]

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I never thought of that. If Michael Reagan is the next one after Hillary Clinton and the next one is a Carter, the order in history will be Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Carter. That could inspire a trend to elect people with names that make the presidential name order go all the way back. If the country goes to shit, we might as well have fun with it.

It's going to be hysterical if Bill Clinton becomes the first "First Man". He will get to live in the White House again, but this time he gets to screw off the whole time. Wait... That's what he did last time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Volcon

I think once george bush leaves office we will change, but if our new presidents pulls all of those troops out of iraq then the world will see us as weak. if we cant finish what we start then other enemy's of the US may begin seeings chances to attack...[/b]

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Yeah. Thank GOD that America isn't already looking weak and retarded by attacking a country for no real reason, expect for the clear motive of revenge, and good thing they are still winning, for the last 4 years, in Iraq.

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Hopefully hillary clinton does not become president, as soon as she haves a period she will launch nukes.[/b]

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Just a good thing you aren't sexist, that would make you silly.

The question isn't "if" it falls, it's more like, who's going to be there to capitalize on the opportunity?

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Originally Posted by Volcon

Hopefully hillary clinton does not become president, as soon as she haves a period she will launch nukes.
[/b]

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A female U.S. president?! Not in this universe.

My wife and I laugh about this frequently.
Even Pakistan has had a female premier, for goodness sake!

What is so terrifying about a woman in the White House?

Nothing at all.

I truly hope that this election brings in the black president or the female one. Either way, both will definitely, in my thoughts, have a strong leadership backbone.

(Plus, Hilary can continue Bill's legacy for him! :P)

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Originally Posted by OneRyt

(Plus, Hilary can continue Bill's legacy for him! :P)
[/b]

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And whatever that legacy may be, it's gonna better than the current situation.

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Huh? There is no terrorist threat? Where do you get that? What is your theory on what Al Qaeda, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbollah are about? Are they ice cream companies disguising themselves as terrorists who hold suicide bombings against us "infidels" as the highest honor achievable by humans?[/b]

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Heh, all I was saying is that terrorism is not beatable. "Phantom terrorism" was a reference to the ability to make a "war on terror" and thereby have the ability to label anyone a terrorist you then want to continue the war. Terrorism is a tactic. You cannot fight a war against it. Also, I was speaking of the tendency for our leaders to use the word "terrorism" in everything they speak of now, and it seems in so doing, they get whatever they want.

I'm not going into detail about what I think. (Cause that would be just too dang long. :content: ) All I have to say is this:

The day they bring back The Draft, will be the day America falls...

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Originally Posted by OneRyt

I truly hope that this election brings in the black president or the female one. Either way, both will definitely, in my thoughts, have a strong leadership backbone.
[/b]

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*laughter*

Nothing good can come from this thread. To even act like measly humans like ourselves can predict the downfall of America is borderline retarded. The truth is, we have no more probability of falling than anyone else in the world. BTW, we are better off than the majority of Europe anyway.

Rome and America are incomparable. Rome fell because its borders were breached several times over the course of a couple hundred years (spread their empire too thin). In this technological age, the sword and shield do not determine the outcome of a country\'s prosperity.

America has a bad rep right now, even within its borders. Probably because 99.99% of the world has never experienced terrorism. Many of you may see the US killing Afghan and Iraqi civilians, which is far worse evil than suicide bombers. The difference is that terrorists have a PURPOSE, and they are always have the element of suprise. Iraq is done and over with. In 10 years it will just be a memory. Terrorism is not a dictator, but an idea. It is passed from father to son. A perpetuating problem. A far, FAR worse evil than the removal of Saddam and all that died in the process.

Terrorism is a wild dog the world needs to tame. 20 years of scaring the pants of terrorist leaders will be a positive thing. Yet we will NEVER see its effects. Its hard to be thankful for the survival of people that would have died in the future, but lived instead.

Hell, our interaction in the mid-east may have already stoped another major terrorist strike. Or perhaps we have planted the seeds of our own destruction.

Nothing good can come from this thread. To even act like measly humans like ourselves can predict the downfall of America is borderline retarded. The truth is, we have no more probability of falling than anyone else in the world. BTW, we are better off than the majority of Europe anyway.

Rome and America are incomparable. Rome fell because its borders were breached several times over the course of a couple hundred years (spread their empire too thin). In this technological age, the sword and shield do not determine the outcome of a country\'s prosperity.

America has a bad rep right now, even within its borders. Probably because 99.99% of the world has never experienced terrorism. Many of you may see the US killing Afghan and Iraqi civilians, which is far worse evil than suicide bombers. The difference is that terrorists have a PURPOSE, and they are always have the element of suprise. Iraq is done and over with. In 10 years it will just be a memory. Terrorism is not a dictator, but an idea. It is passed from father to son. A perpetuating problem. A far, FAR worse evil than the removal of Saddam and all that died in the process.

Terrorism is a wild dog the world needs to tame. 20 years of scaring the pants of terrorist leaders will be a positive thing. Yet we will NEVER see its effects. Its hard to be thankful for the survival of people that would have died in the future, but lived instead.

Hell, our interaction in the mid-east may have already stoped another major terrorist strike. Or perhaps we have planted the seeds of our own destruction.

lol. If you should know Anything HAS, it is that killing people with an idea just strengthens the idea in others. Killing isn't the way to tackle ideas, it needs gradual change, more equality between people and such.

Also, I really doubt You have experienced terrorism HAS. And even if you did, don't you think more people in Iraq have lost their loved ones by bombs? To a peasant that doesn't know shit, what is the difference from your terrorism of bombs and the Muslim terrorism of bombs? Nothing.

absolutely, neuro. I have not directly felt the effects of terrorism. I have not experienced 1% of the suffering that thousands go through every day. I dont think i need a Dutchman to tell me that.

Neuro, you have this fallacy that the world, outside America and terrorist states, is a peacefull place. Most people are not like you. Their goal in life is not peace. You have a higher purpose because survival isnt even a challange for you. Most of the world fights for survival every day (figurative fighting).

Violence, for much of earth, is too good of a resource to just give up. And when this ugly snake shows its head, Team America: World Police will be there to cut its head off. Is that they way things should be? Hell no!!! It kills troops and civilians, while making our country look bad. I think you need to admitt that somebody has be an active force in global policing, because God know most of Europe isnt going to do squat.

You only see the negatives, man. Look under America\'s ugly outside and see what good it has brought the world, including Holland.

Why does the world need governing? Is America perfect or something that they can show people how it is done? The difference between europe and america isn't that europe doesn't care, it is that europe takes a different appoach to solving the world's problems.

America chooses to invade countries and bomb the shit out of them, causing everyone to hate America. Europe choses a more diplomatic approach, however I would like to see them do even more diplomatically and in spreading wealth.

Seriously, terrorist aren't 'Just' terrorist. Even better: There are no 'terrorist'. There are just people. I could be a terrorist, You could be a terrorist. If you are poor and feel suppressed, like people in palatine, you blow yourself up for a cause. Their cause isn't so different from your cause. They want to make the world a better place, you want to make the world a better place. They do it by getting rid of the 'bad-guys', you do it by getting rid of the 'bad-guys'. They use bombs, you use bombs.

Violence isn't the answer to violence. However America thinks it so.

-

Also, I love to see you attack Europe. New York was founded by the Dutch blablabla. But seriously, Europe is doing just fine. Actually it is doing better then America, I think most of the world would say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neruo

Why does the world need governing? Is America perfect or something that they can show people how it is done? The difference between europe and america isn't that europe doesn't care, it is that europe takes a different appoach to solving the world's problems.

America chooses to invade countries and bomb the shit out of them, causing everyone to hate America. Europe choses a more diplomatic approach, however I would like to see them do even more diplomatically and in spreading wealth.

Seriously, terrorist aren't 'Just' terrorist. Even better: There are no 'terrorist'. There are just people. I could be a terrorist, You could be a terrorist. If you are poor and feel suppressed, like people in palatine, you blow yourself up for a cause. Their cause isn't so different from your cause. They want to make the world a better place, you want to make the world a better place. They do it by getting rid of the 'bad-guys', you do it by getting rid of the 'bad-guys'. They use bombs, you use bombs.

Violence isn't the answer to violence. However America thinks it so. Thats why some people here in America protest against violence. Oh wait it doesent matter but no they are violent they live in America. Thos violent Americans! They know America firsthand but they just hate violence. Then again it doesent matter they are Americans, they are violent eaither way.

-

Also, I love to see you attack Europe. New York was founded by the Dutch blablabla. But seriously, Europe is doing just fine. Actually it is doing better then America, I think most of the world would say.
[/b]

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Yeah that's why there was war before America existed. Because nobody liked violence. So people wanted violence so badly they created America.

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Originally Posted by HereWeGo

Yeah that's why there was war before America existed. Because nobody liked violence. So people wanted violence so badly they created America.
[/b]

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Oh my god really?!

But seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? I didn't say america causes violence, or invented it. Bad situations, poverty, unfair situations and indoctrination with a certain system (religion, fascism) cause violence.

America chooses violence as a means against 'terrorism' (and previously 'Communism') and such. There are other means, but America some how things you can only be free if you use bombs to force other people to get free too. And gee, did it work? How is Vietnam doing?

Violence isn't the answer, America thinks it is. How the hell did you get the idea America is the cause of violence? America only is the cause of contra-violence, because violence there will always be if there is injustice and poverty and hate.

The main difference is that Europe is passive. Pretty dang close to cowardous. Remember what happened with that guy named Hitler? Started a little quarrel they decided to call WORLD WAR 2. 50,000,000 lives could have been saved if European nations had enforced the rules it gave Germany. You gave him too many chances, and it backfired. Because America was still objective at the time, we learned not to give crazy people 3rd and 4th chances. But i guess diplomacy is more important than 50 million.

Were you stoned all of 2003? Months of diplomacy. MONTHS. If we, as well as Europe, had intelligence that he was developing nukes (which he was hiding), then why shouldnt we use force? THE WORLD decided that Saddam was not allowed to have nuclear bombs. You see, back then, nobody knew if he had them or not. We just knew he was making them. Your countries had our back pretty much the entire diplomacy period. Nobody knew!!! Its easy for you to look back now and say \"i told you so\". Tensions were high at the time, and the world was about 90% sure what Saddam was doing. To not attack would have been, well, what Europe did in the 1930s. WE HAD TO BE SURE.

The problem with Europe is that it focuses TOO much on diplomacy. Really, its borderline inaction. Saddam was taken over because he was continuing a nuclear development program that the ENTIRE UN told him he could not do. It is not about nukes being used by terrorists.

Atleast my government stays true to its word. We followed through with our resolution toward Iraq, and didnt back out like Europe (excluding England) did. Id rather be called a war mongorer than a coward.

I just waited for you to use the word 'Cowardly'. I mean it if it manly/courageous to plunge into a war you can't win, be my guest.

Also, since the very reason you invaded Iraq was that "There certainly are WMDs", and there are NONE, didn't you made a diplomatic error by barging in? :)

-

Also, I would like to thank America for totally stopping Hitler, Didn't they had some nice trade with Germany before the war? :)

hold on now neuro, dont get your panties in a bunch. Just because your country wussed out doesnt mean we are corageous. We just did what we said we were going to do.

About Hitler, Europe still should have stopped him pre-mobilization. But i guess it was just too much for your ancestors to handle at the time.

WOW......the war is over man, America won. Just because people are still dying doesnt mean the war is lost. Germany kicked the crap out of France in WW2 like it was nothing. There was still a huge French Resistance (much larger than the one in Iraq). Now tell me, did France fall to Germany, or not. O YEA!!!!!! We, the English, and the Canadians freed them....

Cowardous may be a strong word to use. Tell me, neuro, what word would you use to describe the last 50 years of European inaction?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hard

hold on now neuro, dont get your panties in a bunch. Just because your country wussed out doesnt mean we are corageous. We just did what we said we were going to do.[/b]

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'Wussed out'. lol. Do all Americans feel like they have to compensate for something, or just you?

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About Hitler, Europe still should have stopped him pre-mobilization. But i guess it was just too much for your ancestors to handle at the time. [/b]

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Yeah, my ancestors sucked. Oh wait, didn't a few hundred years back some retards that didn't like it in the Netherlands go to some new world... 'America' or something?

Also, America sold weapons to Hitler (to my knowledge). Also, America didn't give a shit about the holocaust till some japs attacked them. Even then, wasn't it Germany that declared war to America? (After America bombed japan? (not the nuke-bomb))

I guess America was a wussy.

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WOW......the war is over man, America won. Just because people are still dying doesnt mean the war is lost. Germany kicked the crap out of France in WW2 like it was nothing. There was still a huge French Resistance (much larger than the one in Iraq). Now tell me, did France fall to Germany, or not. O YEA!!!!!! We, the English, and the Canadians freed them....[/b]

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Mission accomplished! Tell me, what is won? What is accomplished? Order? No? Democracy? No. Peace? No. --Civil war? Yes. More terrorist? Yes. Anarchy? Yes. Hate against America? Yes.

Also, a poll under irakis will tell you they probably did not found the american actions to be very 'free-ing'. More like 'fucking hell on earth-creating'.

And was there a civil war in France, during the second world war? Was there..mhhhhh, lets think.... no? Were there mutilated and tortured bodies found on the streets every morning? Hmmm.... no? Maybe because the Germans actually DID got some order in the country, some good police force. In Iraq you are dealing with AL LOT more then just some resistance. You are dealing with civil war, among other.

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Cowardous may be a strong word to use. Tell me, neuro, what word would you use to describe the last 50 years of European inaction?
[/b]

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In-action against what? Some bad people? Well like I said, I am glad America was COURAGEOUS and SMART enough to bomb the shit out of Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq and like 20 other countries. Not like you did more bad then good with your 'action'.

What has your 'actions' accomplished? Seriously, besides death?

I am not conpensating for anything. Your country is historically too lazy to fight. These are facts. Are you denying that?

Yea, your ancestors sucked. No, they did not discover America. Asians did that.

Weapons were sold to Hitler before he got in the spotlite. Once we figured out what he was doing, it stopped. Hell, your country probably sold him some stuff too.

AMERICANS WERE THE FIRST TO DISCOVER THE HOLOCAUST!!!!!! Nobody knew about it until we found the camps!! We may have known he was moving the people around, but nobody knew it was about mass excecution. Dude, take a history lesson!!! I cant believe you would just blatently make that up and try to pass it off as a fact.

America was created BECAUSE EUROPE SUCKS. We were meant to be a nation free from European Affairs. Your ancestors mistakes created my country. We didnt get involved early in WW2 becuase frankly, we didnt want your problems to become our problems. But your silly countries got taken over anyway (except the brits, go brits!!!), and we lost 500,000 taking them back (im sure you dont care about all the Dutch civilian deaths caused by Americans during your liberation). Final point, Europe sucks, thats why America is here. But the Americans werent necessary, right? Russia would have came and and freed all of you!! Those Russians were so kind and caring back them. Not like Stalin was worse than Hitler or anything...

A war is won by taking over the country. Yes, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. We are now in the reformation era. We are controlling Iraq much better than the TV will tell you. Once again, i have spoken to eyewitnesses of daily life in Iraq. Its actually pretty uneventfull.

America stands up for personal freedom. POLITICIANS make the wars about greed, revenge, and influence. Vietnam was an attempt to buckle down on what Americans thought was the greatest evil (communism), whereas our presidents stayed in it becuase of the arms race. You need to start assessing war at more than just its face value.

Our actions will make Iran think twice about dealing out nukes. It shows that lying to the UN will get a big army on your ass. This is the technology age, man. Dumber people have more destructive power than ever. Stopping these people prior to an event is reason enough to topple Saddam. You are afraid to loose live to save lives. When enough time passes you will understand how deep this conflict is. Once again, war is more than the people that die. It is the messages and functional countries that will be our spoils of war.

What has been the point of your country, besides being an easy target?

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Originally Posted by Hard

I am not conpensating for anything. Your country is historically too lazy to fight. These are facts. Are you denying that?[/b]

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Or perhaps they're too intelligent to involve themselves in pointless brawls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hard

Yea, your ancestors sucked. No, they did not discover America. Asians did that.[/b]

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Did you even read his post? He didn't say his ancestors DISCOVERED America, he said they immigrated there. And no, the Asians did not "discover" America to begin with, it was the Scandinavians back in ~1000 AD.
Although, that whole argument is a moot point anyway, since there were natives on America even back then, so they must have "discovered" America before, when they first arrived.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hard

Weapons were sold to Hitler before he got in the spotlite. Once we figured out what he was doing, it stopped. Hell, your country probably sold him some stuff too.[/b]

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Actually, the US stopped selling him weapons, NOT because we found out what he was doing, but because the Brits were our allies and they wouldn't be too keen on us supplying their enemy, would they? Actually, the US either didn't know or didn't care about the holocaust until AFTER WWII.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hard

AMERICANS WERE THE FIRST TO DISCOVER THE HOLOCAUST!!!!!! Nobody knew about it until we found the camps!! We may have known he was moving the people around, but nobody knew it was about mass excecution. Dude, take a history lesson!!! I cant believe you would just blatently make that up and try to pass it off as a fact.[/b]

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Actually, it was the Poles who first discovered it, and the Brits who first heard of the mass executions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hard

America was created BECAUSE EUROPE SUCKS.[/b]

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That's got to be the most ignorant statement I've ever heard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hard

A war is won by taking over the country. Yes, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. We are now in the reformation era. We are controlling Iraq much better than the TV will tell you. Once again, i have spoken to eyewitnesses of daily life in Iraq. Its actually pretty uneventfull.[/b]

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Oh, bullshit. Don't even get me started on this--the way to undermine a large guerilla network is NOT with armed patrols in the streets. Take a history lesson, that never works.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hard

America stands up for personal freedom. POLITICIANS make the wars about greed, revenge, and influence. Vietnam was an attempt to buckle down on what Americans thought was the greatest evil (communism)[/b]

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Which, ironically, is the exact opposite of what was intended by the Founding Fathers...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hard

Dumber people have more destructive power than ever.[/b]

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http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/5...bushduhvh2.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hard

What has been the point of your country, besides being an easy target?
[/b]

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I take back what I said earlier. THIS is the most ignorant statement I've ever heard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hard

Yea, your ancestors sucked. No, they did not discover America. Asians did that.

Weapons were sold to Hitler before he got in the spotlite. Once we figured out what he was doing, it stopped. Hell, your country probably sold him some stuff too.[/b]

---

Probably not, but it might.

Quote:

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AMERICANS WERE THE FIRST TO DISCOVER THE HOLOCAUST!!!!!! Nobody knew about it until we found the camps!! We may have known he was moving the people around, but nobody knew it was about mass excecution. Dude, take a history lesson!!! I cant believe you would just blatently make that up and try to pass it off as a fact. [/b]

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Did I? It would take a retard not to see that Hitler was extremely bad, actual camps or not. Also, ofcourse it were the Americans that discovered them, not the Russians

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America was created BECAUSE EUROPE SUCKS. We were meant to be a nation free from European Affairs. Your ancestors mistakes created my country. We didnt get involved early in WW2 becuase frankly, we didnt want your problems to become our problems. But your silly countries got taken over anyway (except the brits, go brits!!!), and we lost 500,000 taking them back (im sure you dont care about all the Dutch civilian deaths caused by Americans during your liberation). Final point, Europe sucks, thats why America is here. But the Americans werent necessary, right? Russia would have came and and freed all of you!! Those Russians were so kind and caring back them. Not like Stalin was worse than Hitler or anything...[/b]

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Weren't most of the people that moved to America a bunch of pathetic protestants? That, and a shit load of poor people later on? Yes, I do kind of think that. Took some time too before you got that country together.

'We didn't want your (lol@europe-hate) problems to become our problems." So America was cowardly? Anyhow, I also care about the dutch civilians, would there be that much. For some reason, we, like France, didn't have a civil war.

Dude, play red alert: The allies would have beaten back those pesky Russians. But seriously, russia would have gotten rid of Hitler, and I don't think they would hold Europe for that long.

But you fail to see it isn't America's involvement in the second world war, it is the reason. If they weren't attacked, they wouldn't have helped until after england would have fallen. However now you are calling Europe cowardly and things like that.

Quote:

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A war is won by taking over the country. Yes, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. We are now in the reformation era. We are controlling Iraq much better than the TV will tell you. Once again, i have spoken to eyewitnesses of daily life in Iraq. Its actually pretty uneventfull.[/b]

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It just happens to be that there isn't the slightest decrease in violence. Do you think it will? You have 'won' this war like 2 years ago...

Quote:

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America stands up for personal freedom. POLITICIANS make the wars about greed, revenge, and influence. Vietnam was an attempt to buckle down on what Americans thought was the greatest evil (communism), whereas our presidents stayed in it becuase of the arms race. You need to start assessing war at more than just its face value.[/b]

---

And 'terrorism' and 'saddam's WMDs' aren't the greatest evil now? There isn't that much difference between vietnam and Iraq. It are two wars you can not win, and two wars with no real or at least reachable goal. If all the 'terrorist' are gone, Then you won that war of you. That, or if you find WMDs. You will not.

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Our actions will make Iran think twice about dealing out nukes. It shows that lying to the UN will get a big army on your ass. This is the technology age, man. Dumber people have more destructive power than ever. Stopping these people prior to an event is reason enough to topple Saddam. You are afraid to loose live to save lives. When enough time passes you will understand how deep this conflict is. Once again, war is more than the people that die. It is the messages and functional countries that will be our spoils of war. [/b]

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Yeah, Saddam had big big plans attacking America. Seriously: answer me this: Do you actually think Saddam was going to attack America, or any other country? Since all the al-quida ties were made up by your government, as were the all the 'we are certain Saddam had WMDs and is intending to use them' speeches by your government. Don't you see you have been lied to? It sounds all 'oohhhh-conzpiracy', but isn't it true? You fail to see that simple fact: Your government lied to you, it doesn't really get more factual.

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I am not conpensating for anything. Your country is historically too lazy to fight. These are facts. Are you denying that?

What has been the point of your country, besides being an easy target?
[/b]

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Duuude, you have to stop this whole masculine 'if you don't fight you are a pussy' nonsense. Is it your age? Why do you glory fighting so much? Especially if it achieves shit, like your wars have. My country is an easy target to all the terrorist that even know where the fuck it is: none. Meanwhile, while you go and fight a war that will breed more terrorist that CAN point out America on the map, I am going to enjoy my freedoms by smoking some weed. Is your country that free? Why not?

Have a nice day.

Ah, and I have the feeling you sometimes ignore certain parts of my post, but that might be me.

-

edit: Tsen managed to kick more ass in far less text then me, well done Tsen :)

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Originally Posted by Howetzer

I think your right.
We have talked about this a hundred different ways. I don't think any current government is in place to with stand the test of time. I personally think our form had the best chance had it gone the path our founding fathers had wished.
We had and still have some tools to keep the Gov. in check. We are loosing those powers ever so slightly.
The people have a voice. They just don't use it. And sadly when they do it is often an informative one. :?

But in the mean time --- Let Freedom Ring :!:
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I agree with this. It won't be anytime soon, but the feeling I get is we are slowly losing our powers in the name of "safety", and "security". With the greater sophistication of government technology, they can spy on you in more different ways. I am not a conspiracy theorist by any means, but the government is friends with the news agencys etc. and they can pull strings there if it will mean more profits for the agency, so free speach isn't complete (though it never really was). I think that like every world government before, and every after America will eventualy fall, or at lease cease to be a democracy. I am not to worried about losing it in my lifetime, but in my kid's or grandkid's, you never know. It may be in 100-200 years, but just like any world power, america will eventually die. Still though, america's freedom is much better than much of the world's, and even as we lose some rights, I have it better than most of the world. I don't like much of what the government does, but there I still love america, and though just like any other country, America will fall, I am with America to the end of its life as a democracy (at which point I'm getting the hell out of here).

You are a hypocrite, Tsen. You pretend to care about correcting ignorance, yet you let neuros or any other like minded persons ignorant statements go uncorrected. You care about your agenda, not the truth.

those statements are not ignorant at all. They are just what you dont want to hear.

neuro is already in the brawl.

neuro was trying to convey that his ancestors were essential to the foundation of America. THAT was an ignorant statement.

Tsen, you just lied too. Americans liberated the camps. We were not aware of the infinitely large campaign Hitler had, although we had some stories. We were the primary source of aid relief to the survivors. You should really find this stuff out before you jump on the neuro band-waggon. You were wrong on all 3 counts. Nobody knew the depth of destruction Hitler did until we got into deep German territory.

Tsen, if you are from America then nobody got you straight. The founders of America wanted to reform the shitty politics that are inherent to Europe. I will not waste time finding info. on such a commonly known fact.

Yea man, politicians suck. America isnt what it was meant to be. Thats probably the common citizens fault aswell.

Bush is a dumbass. Is this new? But he wasnt the only one who thought Iraq was developing nukes.....

Neuro said all my country does is cause death. Is THAT not more ignorant than my statement? Holland got WRECKED. In like 2 weeks. Were they not an easy target? Atleast my statement was true. America: largest relief-giving country in the history of our planet. THAT is a fact.

Why dont you get on neuros back? His \"facts\" are always distorted, and some of them sound like they were made up on the spot. He has stereotyped my entire culture as a buch of war mongering, blood thirsty extremists. All i said was his country gets defeated alot and WOOOW, i must have stepped over the line!!!

Im tired with this \"either you are pro-killing babies or you are pro-terrorist\". Dont be so quick to throw me into one of those categories.

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Originally Posted by Hard

You are a hypocrite, Tsen. You pretend to care about correcting ignorance, yet you let neuros or any other like minded persons ignorant statements go uncorrected. You care about your agenda, not the truth.[/b]

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lol. Do you blame him for criticized the bullshit you said? If I said: 'America SUCKS because Europe was to cool for the losers that fleed to America', or something totally irrlavant to any actual discussion, I probably would get criticized to.

And if anything, My impression is that Tsen doesn't have an agenda, he was just replying to some extremely lame remarks. I mean you have to say the 'dumber people have more power' reply with a picture from bush was nicely found, and put.

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those statements are not ignorant at all. They are just what you dont want to hear.[/b]

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How is is not ignorant to say America was created because Europe sucked? During the 17th-19th century, Europe was the most wealthy and civilized region on earth. I wouldn't know what sucked about it. What did? They had enough pointless wars if that is what you wanted.

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neuro was trying to convey that his ancestors were essential to the foundation of America. THAT was an ignorant statement.[/b]

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Who are your ancestors then, HAS? I think it are FUCKING EUROPEANS, lol. Good thing Europe sucked back then, so you suck too.

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Tsen, you just lied too. Americans liberated the camps. We were not aware of the infinitely large campaign Hitler had, although we had some stories. We were the primary source of aid relief to the survivors. You should really find this stuff out before you jump on the neuro band-waggon. You were wrong on all 3 counts. Nobody knew the depth of destruction Hitler did until we got into deep German territory. [/b]

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Tsen never took actual side with me, he just disagreed with You. Also, it seems a lot more likely that the people that lived around the camps like auswich and such to first discover the horrors. Or would you like to post some actual proof that America was the first the ring the bell?

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Tsen, if you are from America then nobody got you straight. The founders of America wanted to reform the shitty politics that are inherent to Europe. I will not waste time finding info. on such a commonly known fact.[/b]

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The founding fathers also wanted a country that stayed islolated somewhat, and not barge in to other countries to 'bring the freedom'. What somehow, always went accompanied with bombs and/or napalm.

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Yea man, politicians suck. America isnt what it was meant to be. Thats probably the common citizens fault aswell.[/b]

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I agree.

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Bush is a dumbass. Is this new? But he wasnt the only one who thought Iraq was developing nukes.....[/b]

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No, it was also Cheney, and Rice, and actually just the bush administation, that actually said things like 'Just tie Iraq to al-quida'.

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Neuro said all my country does is cause death. Is THAT not more ignorant than my statement? Holland got WRECKED. In like 2 weeks. Were they not an easy target? Atleast my statement was true. America: largest relief-giving country in the history of our planet. THAT is a fact. [/b]

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To who are we an easy target NOW? You wasn't talking about the Second world war when you said that, don't change to an extremely different time. Actually, the Netherlands tried to be neutral, like in the first world war. They expected a second one to be just as silly. Also, anno 2007: The last 4 decades, how many people has America, freed in comparison to killed? Do answer this.

America, that biggest relief giver? Sure. Do I also need to dig up that topic, where universal said you guys gave the most aid to other countries? Oh sure you do, in dollars, but per person you score very, very low. I didn't hear much from that topic after I posted the proof of that statement too. I was almost thinking I was talking in spiritually/religion, where people that see an argument that totally destroys their prior words just ignore the entire topic.

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Why dont you get on neuros back? His \"facts\" are always distorted, and some of them sound like they were made up on the spot. He has stereotyped my entire culture as a buch of war mongering, blood thirsty extremists. All i said was his country gets defeated alot and WOOOW, i must have stepped over the line!!!
[/b]

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Tsen is welcome to get on my back. However, I think you are the greater of two evils.

And like I said, what is it with the 'rambo only-thing-that-is-good-is-absolute-victory' thing? Seriously, the Netherlands got run over by a huge army when we thought we would get ignored like in the first world war, besides that no forgeing force has ever attacked us expect for some poor nuts holding a few people hostage in a train. Boo-Hoo. Not like we got 9-11ed, or even better, got patriot-act-ed. America is getting run over by it's own government more then the Netherlands ever did.

Also, I really don't give a shit or we are run over by the Germans or not. As long as we don't side with them, like we didn't. Boo-Hoo, The Netherlands are a bunch of pussies. Sure. So is the kid that is 3 feet tall when he gets raped by a huge 200 LB man with a gun. That little kid is such a wuss he didn't charged the guy with the gun trying to kill him with a paper-towel.

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Im tired with this \"either you are pro-killing babies or you are pro-terrorist\". Dont be so quick to throw me into one of those categories.
[/b]

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You are pro-killing terrorist, are you not? Killing terrorist, if you can find them between layers of civilians.

im sorry man, ive been talking too much shit. But.....

you talk about how your country\'s past isnt important NOW, but you still diss WW2 America!! Pretty much everything about it.

1. We supplied Hitler with weapons
2. We were sissies for not jumping on Europes problem from day 1
3. We didnt care about the Holocaust.....did Holland?
4. We werent necessary. Stalin would have freed Europe.

I dont think you are making stuff up. I think you have been lied to all your life. Just as I have. American \"propaganda\" is more about us than it is about other countries. The \"American Dream\" has turned our life into a rat-race. I would have it no other way, but it creates a whole lot of competition.

But when you say that the United States wasnt necessary to free Europe, I cant believe it. This is not about me making my country look like the Elite. This is fact based.

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You are a hypocrite, Tsen. You pretend to care about correcting ignorance, yet you let neuros or any other like minded persons ignorant statements go uncorrected. You care about your agenda, not the truth.

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No, I just think you're far more wrong then Neruo. He botched several points, but you botched EVERY point.

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those statements are not ignorant at all. They are just what you dont want to hear.

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Uh, NO.
Saying that "EUROPE SUCKS" is pretty damn ignorant. Europe contains four MAJOR world powers. Five if you include Russia. And you just collectively lumped them and said they all "suck". I've got news for you, they're a hell of a lot ahead of US in a LOT of areas. Especially education, coincidentally.

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neuro was trying to convey that his ancestors were essential to the foundation of America. THAT was an ignorant statement.

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Er, I don't know where you learned your history, but the early US population tied back almost exclusively to European immigrants--mostly of Dutch, Irish and German descent.

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Tsen, you just lied too. Americans liberated the camps.

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Tell me where I said we didn't liberate the camps.
I only said we didn't care much about them until AFTER the war ended. Yeah, we "liberated" them, with help of European allies.
Further, I stated that we were not the ones to discover the camps--that was the Poles, followed by the Brit's confirmation of the mass killings, back in '41, BEFORE WE'D EVEN ENTERED THE WAR.

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We were not aware of the infinitely large campaign Hitler had, although we had some stories.

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Again, which is a moot point because several other nations picked up on it and had concrete evidence long before we did.

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We were the primary source of aid relief to the survivors.

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Again, moot point. This was moreso because we were the only economy NOT totally destroyed by the war. It's also rather ignorant to pretend it was a "heroic" action. Yeah, it was aid, and yes, it was needed sorely, but we made a tidy bit of profit off of that in the long run, so it wasn't as selfless as you're making it out to be.

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Tsen, if you are from America then nobody got you straight. The founders of America wanted to reform the shitty politics that are inherent to Europe. I will not waste time finding info. on such a commonly known fact.

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Dude, you totally missed my point.
Yes, they wanted to change the political system present in Europe and form a more ideal society. Specifically, they wanted religion and government kept separate, they wanted the people to have a say in government, and they wanted to reclaim several "inalienable" freedoms.
But that wasn't the point I was making at all--
Have you ever heard of the Monroe Doctrine? It was an effort to stop imperialism. Specifically European imperialism, but it was part of a bigger ideal called isolationism that we decided to just throw out the window whenever we saw fit. Thus America itself became an imperial power of sorts.
The original intent of the Founding Fathers was that the US would act to prevent Europe from meddling in American affairs (The continent America, not the USA), but ALSO that the US would remain neutral from all conflicts that didn't involve us.
In WW I & II our nation's interests got caught up and we got dragged in. But Vietnam and Korea had NOTHING to do with the US, and meddling with them was a STUPID, IGNORANT policy that went against the Founding Fathers in every way possible.

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Bush is a dumbass. Is this new? But he wasnt the only one who thought Iraq was developing nukes...

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Dude, I'm not saying that Bush was stupid for thinking Iraq was developing nukes. I'm saying he's stupid for invading a nation that had no intentions to attack the US, had no ties to Al Queda, and in general wasn't a threat in any way. I'm ALSO saying he's a moron for carrying out a conflict in such a dumb ass way.

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Neuro said all my country does is cause death. Is THAT not more ignorant than my statement? Holland got WRECKED. In like 2 weeks.

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Uh, no. The US has really had little successful politically "helpful" actions in the last six decades or so. Yeah, we got WWII right. But after that, things went downhill fast. Vietnam, Korea and Iraq are all miserable failures where all that we succeeded in was killing massive numbers of people, and getting massive numbers of our own killed in turn. And yeah, Poland (not Holland, dipshit) got hit pretty hard early on in WWII. But they were the first the Germans hit and had little or no warning. They were also militarily insignificant compared to Germany, who had a much stronger economy and much better technology. So no, they weren't just a "target", they were the victims to a surprise attack and didn't have the resources to counter. Further, the Brits were prevented from coming to their aid by other events, so they were trapped all alone facing a far superior enemy.

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America: largest relief-giving country in the history of our planet. THAT is a fact.

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Yes, but we're well on our way to losing that title. And we also happen to be the most damaging nation in the world, too. Again, back to the three big miserable failures: Vietnam, Korea and Iraq. Every one of them we succeeded in nothing but slaughter.

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Why dont you get on neuros back? His \"facts\" are always distorted, and some of them sound like they were made up on the spot.

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I'm not so much on Neruo's side as I am against you. Yeah, like I said, Neruo botched some facts, but not NEARLY as bad as you. And you're not really the one to speak about botching facts.

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He has stereotyped my entire culture as a buch of war mongering, blood thirsty extremists. All i said was his country gets defeated alot and WOOOW, i must have stepped over the line!!!

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You really, really need to take your history.
No, the US isn't a giant collectively bloodthirsty nation. But we do cause a lot of harm, so his statement is, in part, somewhat valid. Ignorant, yes.
Meanwhile, you're making the point that his nation is an "easy target" is inaccurate and not chronologically up-to-date. Not to mention, you REALLY need to work on your communication skills. You didn't just say his country gets defeated a lot, you mocked every aspect of his culture. Really, you're just being a massive hypocrite, accusing him of stereotyping your culture (which he is), when you're just doing the same thing to him.

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We didnt care about the Holocaust.....did Holland?

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Uh...yeah. Quite a bit, actually, SEEING AS HOW IT WAS HAPPENING TO ITS OWN CITIZENS. Nimwit.
They cared plenty, they just weren't in a position to do anything

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We werent necessary. Stalin would have freed Europe

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You're right there, Russia wasn't in any position to defeat Germany at that point.

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Originally Posted by Hard

im sorry man, ive been talking too much shit. But.....[/b]

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I guess I have to. Not like I really think (or even meant to say) that all American soldiers are trigger-happy blood-thirsty grunts, but I do think that quite some people have a bad image of American soldiers.

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you talk about how your country\'s past isnt important NOW, but you still diss WW2 America!! Pretty much everything about it.

1. We supplied Hitler with weapons
2. We were sissies for not jumping on Europes problem from day 1
3. We didnt care about the Holocaust.....did Holland?
4. We werent necessary. Stalin would have freed Europe. [/b]

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To get some things straight, I think America did a good job in the second world war. However, they did not do the best they could have. Bombing japan I would see as a huge no-no. Also, the fact that Japan had to attack America before America got into the war and got rid of Hitler really takes away the 'heroic' factor. America's actions in the Second world war weren't heroic, but they did mostly good things, however I do doubt about the motives of doing those things.

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I dont think you are making stuff up. I think you have been lied to all your life. Just as I have. American \"propaganda\" is more about us than it is about other countries. The \"American Dream\" has turned our life into a rat-race. I would have it no other way, but it creates a whole lot of competition.[/b]

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Lied to all my life? By who? From what I remember, my history book said: "America and the British got rid of Hitler and freed the Netherlands". Actually, I am quite sure my elementary-school history book didn't even mention the Russians, and my high-school history book also was pretty positive about America's role in helping Europe (the Vietnam part, with a little girl burned by napalm, was less positive about America). Also all the movies I ever saw about the war, ALL the shit on discovery is pro-American. I really wondered who lied to me, please do clarify.

I can name a few people that not lied to you, but planted a very one-sided vision in your mind.

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But when you say that the United States wasnt necessary to free Europe, I cant believe it. This is not about me making my country look like the Elite. This is fact based.
[/b]

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I am quite sure Hitler's 3rd Reich wouldn't last 1000 years like Hitler said it would :) I do think there is pretty good chance of the Russians with a few more conscripts then Germany would eventually get rid of Hitler, or at least put enough pressure on him to make his Reich even more unstable.

However it doesn't matter, America did the right thing by helping to get rid of Hitler. I don't really question that. Like I said, I do question their motives for helping.

I think were heading towards something like in the book 1984. I don't like to think that that could happen.

...oops, I broke the quotes.
Probably crossed the boundary of max quotes/post again.
Meh, I'm too lazy to fix it, you guys get the idea of what I was saying anyways.

alright, neuro, we are finally getting somewhere. Im glad you cleared some of that up because i can see your logic a little better.

I saw the bombings in Japan as a means to save lives. I still hold the belief that if Japan was on the verge of surrender, Hiroshima would have been the straw that broke the camels back. It may have saved lives, but i wasnt vaporized and im pretty sure i dont have any mutant, radioactive deformations. Theres nothing we can do now, anyways.

I went over the edge when i said you had been lied to. I was mostly getting at the brainwashing subject. Its only natural that information that makes the US look bad will be focused on less in our schools. Although i do remember learning a whole lot of things i didnt like.

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Originally Posted by Hard

America was created BECAUSE EUROPE SUCKS. [/b]

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:lol: :lol: :lol: That's hilarious!

I am very tired of making these, "We're not that bad. We saved the world repeatedly and lead the world in medicine, entertainment, business, technology, and foreign aid," arguments, so I am not going to get too much into this one. I just hope everybody enjoys their American computer technology and the American-bought freedom they have to spew disrespect on the internet. I wanted to chime in and say that I got a really big kick out of the above quote. It is so damn funny. I like Europe, and I lived in Germany for a little while. I plan on going back a lot more. There's a whole lot of cool stuff there. But that quote is priceless. Do you care if I use that line? I think things can be done with it.

Universal, Germany in it's Nazi period was extremely important in a lot of technical fields. German knowledge of air technology / aerodynamics for instance was way ahead of the rest of the world. Everyone took over the Germans technology after the war. If you say you hate Nazi's, yet you fly an airplane, does that make you a hypocrite?

Your 'Haha, just enjoy the internet WE invented hahahaha' is really lame and shallow. I thank the 0,0001% of America that did invent the internet. I still say 'fuck most of the rest'.

-

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Originally Posted by Neruo

Universal, Germany in it's Nazi period was extremely important in a lot of technical fields. German knowledge of air technology / aerodynamics for instance was way ahead of the rest of the world. Everyone took over the Germans technology after the war. If you say you hate Nazi's, yet you fly an airplane, does that make you a hypocrite?

Your 'Haha, just enjoy the internet WE invented hahahaha' is really lame and shallow. I thank the 0,0001% of America that did invent the internet. I still say 'fuck most of the rest'.

-
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I was talking about more computer technology than the internet, and I mentioned more than our technology. As long as you are enjoying all of what I listed, then we are both happy.

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Originally Posted by Universal

I was talking about more computer technology than the internet, and I mentioned more than our technology. As long as you are enjoying all of what I listed, then we are both happy.
[/b]

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I do thank the Americans that made the stuff I use. Do you thank Europeans for what they invented?

By the way, what did you invent that I use? Also, what did Bush invent? And the rest of your government today, what did they invent that is useful and good? And that I use?

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Originally Posted by Neruo

I do thank the Americans that made the stuff I use. Do you thank Europeans for what they invented?

By the way, what did you invent that I use? Also, what did Bush invent? And the rest of your government today, what did they invent that is useful and good? And that I use?
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My name is not America, and Bush's name is not America. That is the word you used. Also, although individual inventors may be a small portion of society, it is businesses that make those things accessible to the rest of the world, not just a few individuals. The system, America, that you hate so much is the climate where all of that stuff was born. We will continue to come out with it, and you will benefit. Our system makes things happen, and those things have enriched your life greatly. That is an understatement. Do I thank Europeans for what they have done that is good? Yes. I told you I especially like Holland's windmills and wooden shoes. I also don't go around talking like Europe is just some disease on this planet.

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Originally Posted by Universal

My name is not America, and Bush's name is not America. That is the word you used. Also, although individual inventors may be a small portion of society, it is businesses that make those things accessible to the rest of the world, not just a few individuals. The system, America, that you hate so much is the climate where all of that stuff was born. We will continue to come out with it, and you will benefit. Our system makes things happen, and those things have enriched your life greatly. That is an understatement. Do I thank Europeans for what they have done that is good? Yes. I told you I especially like Holland's windmills and wooden shoes. I also don't go around talking like Europe is just some disease on this planet.
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lololol.

Windmills and wooden shoes. I haven't seen those in ages, where did they go.

I am glad the Netherlands invented Windmills and Wooden shoes, I need those to just sit on my lazy ass and reap the fruits of all the hard work of American Society. :) Hmmmm, Cheese.

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Originally Posted by Neruo

I am glad the Netherlands invented Windmills and Wooden shoes, I need those to just sit on my lazy ass and reap the fruits of all the hard work of American Society. :)
[/b]

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Let us know if anybody tries to take that away from you. Your safe freedom is our obligation. :)

We created south park, we created micky d's you use those dont you? otherwise you are not a human ... HE IS NOT A BROTHER!

South Park is great, partially because they can actually criticize their own country sometimes, but also respect it. South Park is seriously an intresting mirror to the people of the world, and especially America, sometimes.

And it also is funny as hell.

McDonalds is just sad, I boycott that shit. I am also very glad I don't slave away there at minimum wage.

You also gave us the KKK
and numerous middle eastern secular dictators,
Oh yeah and a few in Africa
The dude who came i nafter Patrice Lummumba was murdered, I forget his name =(
Seko or sumthin

Imran

What did the U.S give? hm, well lets see. We gave Iraq freedom for one, but i don't think the question is "What did the U.S give" but "what would change without the U.S" if the colonys' had not broken off from Great Brittan, and we had not gone to war with them and destroyed their spot as the greatest and most powerful colony in the world of that time then much would be different.World war 1 and 2 might have had different, and worse, outcomes., the bombs on japan would not have been dropped and shaken their power as Germany's ally, hell the atomic bomb might have even been created. The Monroe doctrine would have not had been written which would cause people like Napolian to increase in power. If the U.S was not created then the ripples from that would have major, and most likely, dire repercussions.

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Originally Posted by Neruo

South Park is great, partially because they can actually criticize their own country sometimes, but also respect it. South Park is seriously an intresting mirror to the people of the world, and especially America, sometimes.

And it also is funny as hell.
[/b]

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Matt Stone is a Republican, and Trey Parker is a Libertarian.

to tell the truith i think the US is far from falling, but im not making any bets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cJlJudDtVE "Iraq for Sale" (Banned Excerpts)

lol @ American tax payers.

ahahaha, i guess thats what the tax payers get for voting for a fucking born-again christian redneck.

I guarantee that every country on this planet will fall eventually. There is so much time and so many different reasons why a country would fall and I believe it is inevitable for the U.S. and every other country to fade with time. Make way for the new.

Scary to think about (since I am an American), but I do believe you are right.

America's going to fall? Only if Americans stop leading the world in technological innovations.

I am from the Netherlands, Amsterdam, I dont think America is ever going to fall, a better word for it and less bad sounding is transformation. America will change *has it not always?*, the whole world will, thats just the way it goes. I think the world economy will link us all more and more and make us all more dependant from eachother, so besides terrorism I think the world economy will drives us more and more towards eachother. But that is a slow process. We also will slowly become more and more world citizens. I think when the west solves the energy problem *oil* and links into other energy resources like for example hydrogen for cars and solar cells *there is a new type out now with 35% efficiency and also works when there is no visible light* and fusion reactors, over time that will result in a way more stable world economy. I dont see it all so doomed, we will all need eachother cause capitalism needs to expend so we will be hooked to eachother, the Usa, Europe, China, Japan etc more and more over time if we want to prosper. I think all nations better be less arrogant about there own supremacy and look less at the differences about there neighbours and more at the good and usefull qualities we share.
The world is getting smaller and smaller, the time of one nation deciding whats best for the planet is slowly drifting towards it end I think. Well thats just my view on it.

@I think btw that most of the Islamic regions/countries will become more of sort of big island, isolated from the west and the western culture, the world polarizes I think in west and Islamic *at least at the moment it does*.

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Originally Posted by Volcon

In my personal opinion i do not think the US will last much longer

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i don't think the U.S will fall anytime soon

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Your statement seems to contradict itself. ;)

Anyway, I really don't think that US will fall. If it does, maybe do an RC. :p

Some would argue that the U.S. has already fallen, several times over;

With the end of States' Rights in the Civil War
With the end of hard currency and the introduction of fiat currency
With the ratification of the 16th amendment and the taxation of labor
With the New Deal
With the Great Society

We are almost nothing like the Constitutionally Limited Republic our founders attempted to create. The U.S. has indeed fallen. Most people just don't know or don't care.

I think the topic is about our superpower status. USA!!!

Has the topic of welfare been brought up yet?
If not i want to incorporate it...
One thing that's true about Americans is that we're lazy.
And there are a certain few who enjoy taking advantage of the Government - and it's money.

There are people having KIDS for the sole reason to get welfare.
And there's people who get on it and don't wanna get out, so instead of trying to work hard and find a way to make some money of their own, they simply feed off the government.
And then they get pissed off about all the shitty things the Government does, despite the fact that they're living off it.

That fact will contribute to the fall of our nation. We're cheap (He-LLO WalMart!), we're lazy, and we whine our asses off.

Stop pointing fingers at the White House and let's look at ourselves for a change.
For the most part, our people are just as bad.

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Originally Posted by Armageddon_Heaven

Has the topic of welfare been brought up yet?
If not i want to incorporate it...
One thing that's true about Americans is that we're lazy.
And there are a certain few who enjoy taking advantage of the Government - and it's money.

There are people having KIDS for the sole reason to get welfare.
And there's people who get on it and don't wanna get out, so instead of trying to work hard and find a way to make some money of their own, they simply feed off the government.
And then they get pissed off about all the shitty things the Government does, despite the fact that they're living off it.

That fact will contribute to the fall of our nation. We're cheap (He-LLO WalMart!), we're lazy, and we whine our asses off.

Stop pointing fingers at the White House and let's look at ourselves for a change.
For the most part, our people are just as bad.

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We have different classes. The dependent welfare class is definintely lazy, and they are an enormous problem. But I think the people who work full time jobs are generally not lazy, and the reason behind our success is the class of people who are so obsessed with money that their entire lives are wrapped up in work.

Yeah, but with each new generation brings the tradition of the previous.
The children of the welfare people will only know welfare, only use welfare, and so on and so on.
That class is like a virus, and the longer we allow it to exist, the worse our country is.

Fewer and fewer people are "going for the American dream", in my opinion...we're just too goddamn lazy.

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Originally Posted by Armageddon_Heaven

Yeah, but with each new generation brings the tradition of the previous.
The children of the welfare people will only know welfare, only use welfare, and so on and so on.
That class is like a virus, and the longer we allow it to exist, the worse our country is.

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I totally agree. That disaster needs to be called off before it ruins the country. The thug element that has gotten so out of hand is to a major extent a result of lack of parental authority of welfare mothers who have a zillion kids and can't keep up with them enough, especially when the father is nowhere around because he knows the welfare will take care of the kids so he doesn't have to. Those kids grow up without consciences are are a nightmare. Welfare is also a huge strain on the economy and all kinds of other terrible things.

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Originally Posted by Armageddon_Heaven

Fewer and fewer people are "going for the American dream", in my opinion...we're just too goddamn lazy.

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That seems to be the case, and the people I know in my parents' generation say it's the case. There seem to be more and more people in their 30's and older who live with their parents, having never left even for a while. I thought that didn't even exist when I was a kid. Now I know of many cases of it. Maybe I am just seeing a side of life I never saw earlier in my life.

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Originally Posted by OneRyt

The question isn't "if" it falls, it's more like, who's going to be there to capitalize on the opportunity?

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Say what?

What are your predictions on when the U.S. will take over Canada and steal their oil?

I dont think anybody sincrely thinks that will happen.
It'd be quite an illogical conclusion.

I think we are going to fall for a different reason.

I think after Bush isn't president anymore for a while, we are gonna get fucked by like 3 different countries, since it will be some liberal in charge. China scares me and they are beastly. Iran scares me too. And the damn Koreans scare me. I dunno, I have serious trust issues with people, and trusting countries is even harder. I'ma have to get the fuck out of this country because I'll be so paranoid. We shoulda blown em all up/ taken em over while we could!

We're gonna die from a weapons of mass destuction disaster!!!!!!!!!

I didn't read any responses, so I don't know if someone has already said something like this.

Niether korea, iran or china re going to bomb the US anytime soon,
at all

The ability of the U.S. to absorb catastrophic effects is truly remarkable. I seriously doubt the U.S. will 'fall' in the near future, even given its many pressing problems, but it's hard to see the U.S. retaining its superpower status for very long.

Its biggest problem is not foreign, but domestic. America is simply too slow to adapt adequately in a world that is changing quickly. When major policies fail, it can take decades to address them because of the dysfunctional political system. Failed policies have been piling up for decades, and the consequences will soon demand a substantial shift in the U.S. government and force the end of its reign as a superpower.

I would again argue that the U.S. has ALREADY fallen, and that there are two world powers at war with each other right now for control of the shell of what we once were.

Those two powers are Saudi Arabia (via the Bushes, et al,) and China, alongside the restructuring remains of the U.S.S.R. (via the Clintons and Kennedys.)

This next election is going to be fascinating. I personally just can't wait to find out who we're going to be kowtowing to for the next four to eight years. The Saudi thing is getting old... and I think it is going to take a REAL taste of unabashed and unmasked collectivism to find out if the American People have anything left in them. Personally, I doubt they do.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

The time has long passed... yet we continue to shoulder our chains without very much complaint.

We have become sheep. The shearing will continue until our meat becomes more valuable.

If not for all the political reasons, the money as well. Money talks, and without the money hungry private corps. in the States re-distributing the wealth into the American consumer, inflation will kill them. Then again, if they do that, they're losing a tonne of money.

"A great Civilization is not conquered from without, until it has destroyed itself from within." - Will Durant

Uraguay is going to fall. Discuss.

I'd expect we (The U.S.) will lose our superpower status soon, relinqueshing the title to China or India, the world's current emerging nations.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut_Jeff777

I'd expect we (The U.S.) will lose our superpower status soon, relinqueshing the title to China or India, the world's current emerging nations.

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They will never be able to do it if they don't become more capitalistic. Because of their populations, they could outdo us if they become capitalistic enough. Russia could too. I would love for that to happen. I don't like my country being the world's only superpower. It incites too much resentment and anti-nationalism, which I think is just as sick of a prejudice as racism, sexism, and homophobia. I want the whole world to use free market on the level we do and become highly advanced, productive, and powerful. One of my dreams in life is to live to see such a world. I also will not be afraid of any of those countries if they become so successful. I don't fear highly capitalistic countries. They tend to be advanced and civilized. The less primitive a country is, the better it is for the world.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

They will never be able to do it if they don't become more capitalistic. Because of their populations, they could outdo us if they become capitalistic enough. Russia could too. I would love for that to happen. I don't like my country being the world's only superpower. It incites too much resentment and anti-nationalism, which I think is just as sick of a prejudice as racism, sexism, and homophobia. I want the whole world to use free market on the level we do and become highly advanced, productive, and powerful. One of my dreams in life is to live to see such a world. I also will not be afraid of any of those countries if they become so successful. I don't fear highly capitalistic countries. They tend to be advanced and civilized. The less primitive a country is, the better it is for the world.

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That strikes me as a highly ignorant comment.
First of all India is very very capitalistic.

Secondly that comment at the bottom. Capitalism has been responsible for some very very un-civilized actions throughout history. Lets not forget that although Hilter called his party the National Socialists, Germany was a capitalsit country. Under Captialism in America we had slavery. Under the highest form of cpaitalism, imperalism, we had colonization, with European powers fighting for colonies all around the world. Capitslism tends to always bring with it, poverty, and opression. In the free congo, in chilie under pinochet. It tends to be to me that both Socialist and Capitalist countires have throughout history acted very very uncivilized.

let me ask you a question.
What is it about a powerful socialistic nation that frightens you so much?
Your sentence that you wuldnt be afraid of a highly succesful capitalist country implies that you would be afraid of a succesful country employing a different econonmic system. Why is that?

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Originally Posted by imran_p

let me ask you a question.
What is it about a powerful socialistic nation that frightens you so much?

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Enslavement. Despotism. Tyranny.

WE are a powerful socialistic nation, though we do not yet openly admit that. The next election could very well change that, and then the world may really understand just how much there is to lose here - not just for the U.S., but for the entire planet and all of humanity.

Wealth is created, and Capitalism just happens to be by far and away the greatest motivator of wealth creation discovered by man so far. True capitalism, (which has only been known for brief periods throughout history and really doesn't exist today,) is really nothing more than liberty and freedom. It is still powerful enough that a communist country like China can partly removed its heavy hand from the economic sector and permit capitalism to reign, resulting in staggering creation of wealth. Capitalism permits and encourages the creation of wealth. Wealth is the cure for (real - not U.S. variety) poverty and the stuff that BUILDS super powers.

The problem with socialism and communism is that humans run it all - and humans INVARIABLY become corrupted by the combination of wealth and power. That's why 100,000,000 have given their lives (so far) demonstrating how the collectivist dream is really humanity's greatest nightmare. It is a system that attempts to control existing wealth rather than promoting and benefiting from creation of wealth. The only way to do that is to steal wealth from those who create and own it.

There's a whole lot to fear from a socialist or Communist superpower, but only if you are a human who values his or her liberty. Otherwise I guess it's no big deal, huh?

Firstly, both Capitalism and Socialism create wealth, the only real theoretical deiffernce lies in the distribution of that wealth.
And you refer to true capitalism not existing, I argue that true communism as dictated by Marx and Reformed by Lenin has never existed.
You talk of corruption as if it doesnt exist within Capitalism, and I dont udnerstadn yoiur point that humans run it all in Socailsit society.

How is this any different from a Capitalist society? Enslavement? Capitslism in its opurest form has given us that throughout histroy, jesus, Captialism invented that.

How can you see tht wealth is stole from those who create it and own it?
These are not the same people, in a Capitslist society the bourgeoise own the wealth and the proletariat create it.
The workers create the wealth, but the workers don't own the wealth.
Labour Theory of Value.

Personally I'm not a communist, I believe in semi-socialsit society, like what Britain used to be.
Here we have the NHS, if it wasnt for great people like Nye Bevan, figtihng for soemthing tat the time was regarded as socialsit we wouldnt have it. In capitslist countries only rich bourgoise people can afford good healthcare, same wtih education. Thats why you have your ghettos. Capitslism, is a robbery system that thrives on wars and imperalism.

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Originally Posted by imran_p

That strikes me as a highly ignorant comment.

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Oh, nice. Always start off a debate with a flame comment. It will get you far.

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Originally Posted by imran_p

First of all India is very very capitalistic.

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Are they as capitalistic as the United States? If not, then they are not going to be more advanced and civilized than the United States.

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Originally Posted by imran_p

Secondly that comment at the bottom. Capitalism has been responsible for some very very un-civilized actions throughout history. Lets not forget that although Hilter called his party the National Socialists, Germany was a capitalsit country. Under Captialism in America we had slavery. Under the highest form of cpaitalism, imperalism, we had colonization, with European powers fighting for colonies all around the world. Capitslism tends to always bring with it, poverty, and opression. In the free congo, in chilie under pinochet. It tends to be to me that both Socialist and Capitalist countires have throughout history acted very very uncivilized.

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First of all, I did not say that all capitalism has been good. I said that the more capitalistic a country is, the more advanced and civilized it is. That is much more true now than it was before the industrial revolution, which really gave capitalism room to create prosperity. But when you throw in the dictatorship factor, a horribly negative variable is involved. It is capitalistic democracies that are by far the best. Dictatorships suck.

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Originally Posted by imran_p

let me ask you a question.
What is it about a powerful socialistic nation that frightens you so much?
Your sentence that you wuldnt be afraid of a highly succesful capitalist country implies that you would be afraid of a succesful country employing a different econonmic system. Why is that?

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We have been over this before. Socialism destroys room for incentive. Does it not? People can't get obsessed with making money if they are not allowed to make and keep a lot of money. That hinderance prevents business expansion and the economic growth that results from it. That keeps countries much more backward ass than they would be otherwise. I fear backward ass countries far more than countries where people have come way out of the stone age. Also, a capitalist country is a free country, and a free country is one that will have a much better chance of keeping its leader in check than one where the government has way too much control. The correlation is not +1, but it is close.

Take the top ten most successful capitalist nations in the world and ask yourself how afraid you would be that they would take over Britain if each of those countries were the world's only superpower. Now take the top ten most successful non-capitalist nations and ask yourself the same question. Do you see the difference?

By the way, there is a question I asked you a bunch of times earlier this year and you never answered. What is your favorite communist country? You were all gung-ho communism back in January and February. Are you still? Tell me about where communism, or socialism for that matter, has ever proven to be a major success. What country used socialism or communism to create a wealthier and more wordly supportive society than the United States, Britain, Israel, or Japan? I want to know about these successes you have in mind. Thank you. :)

(@imran_p) I see that you don't really understand what capitalism is. If you are looking to the U.S. as a shining example of capitalism, you are sorely deluded. It's no different from looking to the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany as shining examples of pure socialism.

You might try reading Ayn Rand's "Capitalism, The Unknown Ideal" or at least some Austrian economics.

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Originally Posted by pj

(@imran_p) I see that you don't really understand what capitalism is. If you are looking to the U.S. as a shining example of capitalism, you are sorely deluded. It's no different from looking to the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany as shining examples of pure socialism.

You might try reading Ayn Rand's "Capitalism, The Unknown Ideal" or at least some Austrian economics.

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I really wish we would go all the way with it so we could set a much bigger example of what capitalism is capable of creating.

First of all calling your comment ignorant is not at all flaming, i didn't say you were ignorant I said the comment struck me as bieng ingornat

Next, i think we had a misunderstanding in your sue of the word civlized, I took it to be a purely ethical term. However, i contend that at its peak the Soviet was very very advanced, remember Sputnik? Also, your jsutification for the evils of captialism being dictatorship is weak, as I can apply this to socialist countries. Coutnries that vote in a more socialist government are different to those where a mad communsit dictator goes on a killing spree, e.g. Stalin. You still didnt justify imperalism, or slavery?
Both evils of capitalism?

So next you offer your reasoning fir why Capitlism is economically superior, I do not disagree it creates more wealth. Surely you are not scared of a succesful scoailsit country because of your belief that people have no incentive to work?
What scares you about a syuccesful country that you claim lacks the superiority of the Capitlist system?

"A capitalist country is a free country"

Youve been listeinng to too much government propganda, they even tech us that shit in our schools. Capitliast countreis can be dictatorshps and they can be democracies, also I argue that the workers are never free in a capitslist country.

Now the war question, it tends to be in my expereince that its capitslist countries rampaging around the glob right now expanding the free market. Everytime a country nationalizes its resources the US or Britain invade them, but eh lets not make this an Iraq, Afghanistan or Iran debate?

Finally, which communist country ahve i ever supported,
Not one
because like I said there has never been one.
But I'll show you the beauty of Social Democratism, or state controlled capitalism.
Britan
Not now, but back in the days of Benn, Foot and Bevan. We have the NHS, until recnetly it was brillaint, we had a great education system that until recnetly was accesible to all groups in society. We ahve a gret beneifits system, this is all down to Old Labour, who by party deifntion are Social Democrats/Socialist. Obviously Britain is not so great these days, with us being America's little lapdog, and the rise of New LAbour and there Conservatism

I believe in the Utopia of Communism, in theory, I'm not sure of its practicalitiy, but I do know that Free Market or Lassiez Faire Capitalism is inheretly evil and a robbery system.

What a bunch of garbage

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Originally Posted by imran_p

Next, i think we had a misunderstanding in your sue of the word civlized, I took it to be a purely ethical term. However, i contend that at its peak the Soviet was very very advanced, remember Sputnik? Also, your jsutification for the evils of captialism being dictatorship is weak, as I can apply this to socialist countries. Coutnries that vote in a more socialist government are different to those where a mad communsit dictator goes on a killing spree, e.g. Stalin. You still didnt justify imperalism, or slavery?
Both evils of capitalism?

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The Soviet Union's government had some good technology for a short time because the money they took from the citizens went into their space and arms races with the United States. That does not mean the country itself was well civilized. To the extent that it was, it was a result of the peoples' prior history of not being the Soviet Union.

Dictatorships suck in capitalist and socialist countries. I don't see where we disagree on that.

Of course I am not going to justify slavery or imperialism. I told you that capitalism doesn't have 100% good results in all cases. However, the top capitalist nations in the world do not allow slavery and are not imperialistic today. We have become civilized due to the industrial revolution and the effectiveness of capitalism. I am talking about the populations, not merely the government. Our civilized people would never allow such things now.

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Originally Posted by imran_p

So next you offer your reasoning fir why Capitlism is economically superior, I do not disagree it creates more wealth. Surely you are not scared of a succesful scoailsit country because of your belief that people have no incentive to work?
What scares you about a syuccesful country that you claim lacks the superiority of the Capitlist system?

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As I already told you, the more primitive a population is, the more evil it is. Socialism stifles growth in all areas and stops the ability to evolve into less primitive states.

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Originally Posted by imran_p

"A capitalist country is a free country"

Youve been listeinng to too much government propganda, they even tech us that shit in our schools. Capitliast countreis can be dictatorshps and they can be democracies, also I argue that the workers are never free in a capitslist country.

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Capitalist countries are rarely dictatorships. How many are there any in the world right now? How are the workers never free in a democracy? We outlawed slavery in the mid-1800's. How are workers more free in a socialist country? I can't say I have any idea what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by imran_p

Now the war question, it tends to be in my expereince that its capitslist countries rampaging around the glob right now expanding the free market. Everytime a country nationalizes its resources the US or Britain invade them, but eh lets not make this an Iraq, Afghanistan or Iran debate?

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We spread the freedom that all countries deserve. We are not like the Soviet Union, who went around robbing countries of their freedom.

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Originally Posted by imran_p

Finally, which communist country ahve i ever supported,
Not one
because like I said there has never been one.
But I'll show you the beauty of Social Democratism, or state controlled capitalism.
Britan
Not now, but back in the days of Benn, Foot and Bevan. We have the NHS, until recnetly it was brillaint, we had a great education system that until recnetly was accesible to all groups in society. We ahve a gret beneifits system, this is all down to Old Labour, who by party deifntion are Social Democrats/Socialist. Obviously Britain is not so great these days, with us being America's little lapdog, and the rise of New LAbour and there Conservatism

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So the education system was better when Britain was more socialist? That's the big advantage of socialism in Britain? Try privatizing your school system, and I will show you success in education. You probably have a socialistic school system like we have. Ours is pathetic. Our private schools rock, but our public schools are an embarassment. Without financial competition, a school does not have the necessary incentive to be great, in most cases. But any way, you have said that capitalism creates more wealth than socialism, so how else is Britain worse off today than in the old days? I know which Britain I would rather live in.

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Originally Posted by imran_p

I believe in the Utopia of Communism, in theory, I'm not sure of its practicalitiy, but I do know that Free Market or Lassiez Faire Capitalism is inheretly evil and a robbery system.

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Socialism and communism are robbery systems. People don't get to keep the great successes they earn. With capitalism, they can. So how is capitalism more of a robbery system than socialism?

Most importantly, what would be the driving force in communism and socialism? Why would people work hard to create wealth, which of course results in the buying of more products, which expands businesses and creates more wealth, ad infinitum? What is superior about socialism and communism, and what could possibly be the driving force that would make them work well?

The end of the United States will be caused by the following 3 things, in my opinion.

1. The rise of other world powers and our attempts to proudly hold onto some economic groundation while the fuckers reponsible for the depression are going to retire with their stolen riches on other cuntries that aren't boiling alive in ignorant mistakes and complacency.

2. Natural disasters which we will be completely unable to defend ourselves against.

3. World apathy for our plight.

My conclusion is some other power was allowed to infiltrate America like a trojan horse, this was allowed to happen. And the leaders of death went ahead and created the destruction. Some still think that the dark is good. but they are confused. The degree to which America is destroyed is not just up to the people but powers above the people that decide how things are to be balanced.

Yes, I speak outside most accepted paradigms.

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Originally Posted by Mystic7

Yes, I speak outside most accepted paradigms.

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Not so much. You and I are actually quite in agreement on this. I only differ in that I believe there are (at least) two such trojans.

Same here, just see think about who I'm referring to when I say "fuckers" in my post.

I still think the kicker will be world apathy, though, because otherwise we'd just go through a depression due to our selling our whole economy over to a small group of people. It will be the world's unwillingeness to help us in our time of need due to their complete lack of sympathy which will make the sorrowful difference to us. The people responsible will probably use their money to hop out of the mess, too.