Thread: U.s Is Going To Fall

I'd expect we (The U.S.) will lose our superpower status soon, relinqueshing the title to China or India, the world's current emerging nations.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut_Jeff777

I'd expect we (The U.S.) will lose our superpower status soon, relinqueshing the title to China or India, the world's current emerging nations.

They will never be able to do it if they don't become more capitalistic. Because of their populations, they could outdo us if they become capitalistic enough. Russia could too. I would love for that to happen. I don't like my country being the world's only superpower. It incites too much resentment and anti-nationalism, which I think is just as sick of a prejudice as racism, sexism, and homophobia. I want the whole world to use free market on the level we do and become highly advanced, productive, and powerful. One of my dreams in life is to live to see such a world. I also will not be afraid of any of those countries if they become so successful. I don't fear highly capitalistic countries. They tend to be advanced and civilized. The less primitive a country is, the better it is for the world.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

They will never be able to do it if they don't become more capitalistic. Because of their populations, they could outdo us if they become capitalistic enough. Russia could too. I would love for that to happen. I don't like my country being the world's only superpower. It incites too much resentment and anti-nationalism, which I think is just as sick of a prejudice as racism, sexism, and homophobia. I want the whole world to use free market on the level we do and become highly advanced, productive, and powerful. One of my dreams in life is to live to see such a world. I also will not be afraid of any of those countries if they become so successful. I don't fear highly capitalistic countries. They tend to be advanced and civilized. The less primitive a country is, the better it is for the world.

That strikes me as a highly ignorant comment.
First of all India is very very capitalistic.

Secondly that comment at the bottom. Capitalism has been responsible for some very very un-civilized actions throughout history. Lets not forget that although Hilter called his party the National Socialists, Germany was a capitalsit country. Under Captialism in America we had slavery. Under the highest form of cpaitalism, imperalism, we had colonization, with European powers fighting for colonies all around the world. Capitslism tends to always bring with it, poverty, and opression. In the free congo, in chilie under pinochet. It tends to be to me that both Socialist and Capitalist countires have throughout history acted very very uncivilized.

let me ask you a question.
What is it about a powerful socialistic nation that frightens you so much?
Your sentence that you wuldnt be afraid of a highly succesful capitalist country implies that you would be afraid of a succesful country employing a different econonmic system. Why is that?

Originally Posted by imran_p

let me ask you a question.
What is it about a powerful socialistic nation that frightens you so much?

Enslavement. Despotism. Tyranny.

WE are a powerful socialistic nation, though we do not yet openly admit that. The next election could very well change that, and then the world may really understand just how much there is to lose here - not just for the U.S., but for the entire planet and all of humanity.

Wealth is created, and Capitalism just happens to be by far and away the greatest motivator of wealth creation discovered by man so far. True capitalism, (which has only been known for brief periods throughout history and really doesn't exist today,) is really nothing more than liberty and freedom. It is still powerful enough that a communist country like China can partly removed its heavy hand from the economic sector and permit capitalism to reign, resulting in staggering creation of wealth. Capitalism permits and encourages the creation of wealth. Wealth is the cure for (real - not U.S. variety) poverty and the stuff that BUILDS super powers.

The problem with socialism and communism is that humans run it all - and humans INVARIABLY become corrupted by the combination of wealth and power. That's why 100,000,000 have given their lives (so far) demonstrating how the collectivist dream is really humanity's greatest nightmare. It is a system that attempts to control existing wealth rather than promoting and benefiting from creation of wealth. The only way to do that is to steal wealth from those who create and own it.

There's a whole lot to fear from a socialist or Communist superpower, but only if you are a human who values his or her liberty. Otherwise I guess it's no big deal, huh?

Firstly, both Capitalism and Socialism create wealth, the only real theoretical deiffernce lies in the distribution of that wealth.
And you refer to true capitalism not existing, I argue that true communism as dictated by Marx and Reformed by Lenin has never existed.
You talk of corruption as if it doesnt exist within Capitalism, and I dont udnerstadn yoiur point that humans run it all in Socailsit society.

How is this any different from a Capitalist society? Enslavement? Capitslism in its opurest form has given us that throughout histroy, jesus, Captialism invented that.

How can you see tht wealth is stole from those who create it and own it?
These are not the same people, in a Capitslist society the bourgeoise own the wealth and the proletariat create it.
The workers create the wealth, but the workers don't own the wealth.
Labour Theory of Value.

Personally I'm not a communist, I believe in semi-socialsit society, like what Britain used to be.
Here we have the NHS, if it wasnt for great people like Nye Bevan, figtihng for soemthing tat the time was regarded as socialsit we wouldnt have it. In capitslist countries only rich bourgoise people can afford good healthcare, same wtih education. Thats why you have your ghettos. Capitslism, is a robbery system that thrives on wars and imperalism.

(@imran_p) I see that you don't really understand what capitalism is. If you are looking to the U.S. as a shining example of capitalism, you are sorely deluded. It's no different from looking to the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany as shining examples of pure socialism.

You might try reading Ayn Rand's "Capitalism, The Unknown Ideal" or at least some Austrian economics.

Originally Posted by pj

(@imran_p) I see that you don't really understand what capitalism is. If you are looking to the U.S. as a shining example of capitalism, you are sorely deluded. It's no different from looking to the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany as shining examples of pure socialism.

You might try reading Ayn Rand's "Capitalism, The Unknown Ideal" or at least some Austrian economics.

I really wish we would go all the way with it so we could set a much bigger example of what capitalism is capable of creating.

Originally Posted by imran_p

That strikes me as a highly ignorant comment.

Oh, nice. Always start off a debate with a flame comment. It will get you far.

Originally Posted by imran_p

First of all India is very very capitalistic.

Are they as capitalistic as the United States? If not, then they are not going to be more advanced and civilized than the United States.

Originally Posted by imran_p

Secondly that comment at the bottom. Capitalism has been responsible for some very very un-civilized actions throughout history. Lets not forget that although Hilter called his party the National Socialists, Germany was a capitalsit country. Under Captialism in America we had slavery. Under the highest form of cpaitalism, imperalism, we had colonization, with European powers fighting for colonies all around the world. Capitslism tends to always bring with it, poverty, and opression. In the free congo, in chilie under pinochet. It tends to be to me that both Socialist and Capitalist countires have throughout history acted very very uncivilized.

First of all, I did not say that all capitalism has been good. I said that the more capitalistic a country is, the more advanced and civilized it is. That is much more true now than it was before the industrial revolution, which really gave capitalism room to create prosperity. But when you throw in the dictatorship factor, a horribly negative variable is involved. It is capitalistic democracies that are by far the best. Dictatorships suck.

Originally Posted by imran_p

let me ask you a question.
What is it about a powerful socialistic nation that frightens you so much?
Your sentence that you wuldnt be afraid of a highly succesful capitalist country implies that you would be afraid of a succesful country employing a different econonmic system. Why is that?

We have been over this before. Socialism destroys room for incentive. Does it not? People can't get obsessed with making money if they are not allowed to make and keep a lot of money. That hinderance prevents business expansion and the economic growth that results from it. That keeps countries much more backward ass than they would be otherwise. I fear backward ass countries far more than countries where people have come way out of the stone age. Also, a capitalist country is a free country, and a free country is one that will have a much better chance of keeping its leader in check than one where the government has way too much control. The correlation is not +1, but it is close.

Take the top ten most successful capitalist nations in the world and ask yourself how afraid you would be that they would take over Britain if each of those countries were the world's only superpower. Now take the top ten most successful non-capitalist nations and ask yourself the same question. Do you see the difference?

By the way, there is a question I asked you a bunch of times earlier this year and you never answered. What is your favorite communist country? You were all gung-ho communism back in January and February. Are you still? Tell me about where communism, or socialism for that matter, has ever proven to be a major success. What country used socialism or communism to create a wealthier and more wordly supportive society than the United States, Britain, Israel, or Japan? I want to know about these successes you have in mind. Thank you.

First of all calling your comment ignorant is not at all flaming, i didn't say you were ignorant I said the comment struck me as bieng ingornat

Next, i think we had a misunderstanding in your sue of the word civlized, I took it to be a purely ethical term. However, i contend that at its peak the Soviet was very very advanced, remember Sputnik? Also, your jsutification for the evils of captialism being dictatorship is weak, as I can apply this to socialist countries. Coutnries that vote in a more socialist government are different to those where a mad communsit dictator goes on a killing spree, e.g. Stalin. You still didnt justify imperalism, or slavery?
Both evils of capitalism?

So next you offer your reasoning fir why Capitlism is economically superior, I do not disagree it creates more wealth. Surely you are not scared of a succesful scoailsit country because of your belief that people have no incentive to work?
What scares you about a syuccesful country that you claim lacks the superiority of the Capitlist system?

"A capitalist country is a free country"

Youve been listeinng to too much government propganda, they even tech us that shit in our schools. Capitliast countreis can be dictatorshps and they can be democracies, also I argue that the workers are never free in a capitslist country.

Now the war question, it tends to be in my expereince that its capitslist countries rampaging around the glob right now expanding the free market. Everytime a country nationalizes its resources the US or Britain invade them, but eh lets not make this an Iraq, Afghanistan or Iran debate?

Finally, which communist country ahve i ever supported,
Not one
because like I said there has never been one.
But I'll show you the beauty of Social Democratism, or state controlled capitalism.
Britan
Not now, but back in the days of Benn, Foot and Bevan. We have the NHS, until recnetly it was brillaint, we had a great education system that until recnetly was accesible to all groups in society. We ahve a gret beneifits system, this is all down to Old Labour, who by party deifntion are Social Democrats/Socialist. Obviously Britain is not so great these days, with us being America's little lapdog, and the rise of New LAbour and there Conservatism

I believe in the Utopia of Communism, in theory, I'm not sure of its practicalitiy, but I do know that Free Market or Lassiez Faire Capitalism is inheretly evil and a robbery system.

What a bunch of garbage

Originally Posted by imran_p

Next, i think we had a misunderstanding in your sue of the word civlized, I took it to be a purely ethical term. However, i contend that at its peak the Soviet was very very advanced, remember Sputnik? Also, your jsutification for the evils of captialism being dictatorship is weak, as I can apply this to socialist countries. Coutnries that vote in a more socialist government are different to those where a mad communsit dictator goes on a killing spree, e.g. Stalin. You still didnt justify imperalism, or slavery?
Both evils of capitalism?

The Soviet Union's government had some good technology for a short time because the money they took from the citizens went into their space and arms races with the United States. That does not mean the country itself was well civilized. To the extent that it was, it was a result of the peoples' prior history of not being the Soviet Union.

Dictatorships suck in capitalist and socialist countries. I don't see where we disagree on that.

Of course I am not going to justify slavery or imperialism. I told you that capitalism doesn't have 100% good results in all cases. However, the top capitalist nations in the world do not allow slavery and are not imperialistic today. We have become civilized due to the industrial revolution and the effectiveness of capitalism. I am talking about the populations, not merely the government. Our civilized people would never allow such things now.

Originally Posted by imran_p

So next you offer your reasoning fir why Capitlism is economically superior, I do not disagree it creates more wealth. Surely you are not scared of a succesful scoailsit country because of your belief that people have no incentive to work?
What scares you about a syuccesful country that you claim lacks the superiority of the Capitlist system?

As I already told you, the more primitive a population is, the more evil it is. Socialism stifles growth in all areas and stops the ability to evolve into less primitive states.

Originally Posted by imran_p

"A capitalist country is a free country"

Youve been listeinng to too much government propganda, they even tech us that shit in our schools. Capitliast countreis can be dictatorshps and they can be democracies, also I argue that the workers are never free in a capitslist country.

Capitalist countries are rarely dictatorships. How many are there any in the world right now? How are the workers never free in a democracy? We outlawed slavery in the mid-1800's. How are workers more free in a socialist country? I can't say I have any idea what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by imran_p

Now the war question, it tends to be in my expereince that its capitslist countries rampaging around the glob right now expanding the free market. Everytime a country nationalizes its resources the US or Britain invade them, but eh lets not make this an Iraq, Afghanistan or Iran debate?

We spread the freedom that all countries deserve. We are not like the Soviet Union, who went around robbing countries of their freedom.

Originally Posted by imran_p

Finally, which communist country ahve i ever supported,
Not one
because like I said there has never been one.
But I'll show you the beauty of Social Democratism, or state controlled capitalism.
Britan
Not now, but back in the days of Benn, Foot and Bevan. We have the NHS, until recnetly it was brillaint, we had a great education system that until recnetly was accesible to all groups in society. We ahve a gret beneifits system, this is all down to Old Labour, who by party deifntion are Social Democrats/Socialist. Obviously Britain is not so great these days, with us being America's little lapdog, and the rise of New LAbour and there Conservatism

So the education system was better when Britain was more socialist? That's the big advantage of socialism in Britain? Try privatizing your school system, and I will show you success in education. You probably have a socialistic school system like we have. Ours is pathetic. Our private schools rock, but our public schools are an embarassment. Without financial competition, a school does not have the necessary incentive to be great, in most cases. But any way, you have said that capitalism creates more wealth than socialism, so how else is Britain worse off today than in the old days? I know which Britain I would rather live in.

Originally Posted by imran_p

I believe in the Utopia of Communism, in theory, I'm not sure of its practicalitiy, but I do know that Free Market or Lassiez Faire Capitalism is inheretly evil and a robbery system.

Socialism and communism are robbery systems. People don't get to keep the great successes they earn. With capitalism, they can. So how is capitalism more of a robbery system than socialism?

Most importantly, what would be the driving force in communism and socialism? Why would people work hard to create wealth, which of course results in the buying of more products, which expands businesses and creates more wealth, ad infinitum? What is superior about socialism and communism, and what could possibly be the driving force that would make them work well?