National and racial pride - what's your take on it?

[King and God]

I personally think it is weak to take pride in one's nation or race, since what one's nation/race has done is not what oneself has done, thus one has no reason to take pride or feel shame over it. For this same reason I think it is just as alright to shout racial slurs as it is to make 'normal' insults at people, aswell as degrading someone's nation. They should not feel any pride or shame over it in the first place, since they have no reason to do so, for the reason I mentioned above. Discuss.

[Casualtie]

On thing I will point out that I've noticed with national pride is that the majority of the people are in their early and late teens to early twenties. Most of these people have never been to their country, much less lived there long enough to develope national pride. When I meet kids with extreme national pride only to find out they've never been there, I get pretty annoyed (and yes, it has happened more than once). As for racial pride, I'm all for it. I see racial pride as a way to show racists that you don't care for their predjudices and they don't effect you. If people were ashamed to be a certain race, it only proves that the KKK and like hate groups are succeeding.

[King and God]

One should not feel pride or shame over one's race. It is pathetic to feel either of those because of something one has been born into.

[Harrycombs]

I personally think it is weak to take pride in one's nation or race, since what one's nation/race has done is not what oneself has done, thus one has no reason to take pride or feel shame over it. For this same reason I think it is just as alright to shout racial slurs as it is to make 'normal' insults at people, aswell as degrading someone's nation. They should not feel any pride or shame over it in the first place, since they have no reason to do so, for the reason I mentioned above. Discuss. I completely agree with your post. I can't think of anything to add lol.

[Universal Mind]

People shouldn't be unconditionally proud of their countries. They should only be proud or specific aspects and contributions of their countries. As a citizen, you are part of a system. Your consumership affects your national economy, and your taxes affect your government's treasury. Your votes contribute to putting law makers in office. In that way, you are part of a system, and it makes sense to be proud of what good it does if there is any. That does not mean every citizen is individually responsible for what the system does. It is just that every citizen is a participating part of a larger unit. However, treating countries like deities is silly and spooky. I think even singing the national anthem and saying the Pledge of Allegience are very bizarre behaviors. A country is not a god. That type of stuff is what makes some people unconditionally loyal supporters of their countries' foreign policy. Race is very different. Races are not systems. They are not organizations. They are bilogical classifications regarding very slight differences in skin characteristics that make up only a small fraction of a percentage of a difference in genetic overlap, and that is all. Races are not teams. Racial pride doesn't make much sense to me.

[Vex Kitten]

I think having pride in one's race is healthy so long as one doesn't get fanatical about it. Races that have been belittled, degraded and just plain shat upon (for lack of a better description at the moment) have all the rights in the world to be prideful since they have survived and prospered despite attempts to dehumanize or wipe them out completely. And such things aren't only in the past. They're still happening today. Just in more covert ways. Pride and belief in the past strenght is what can pull a persecuted people through the bull shit that other races whom believe themselves to be superior seem to like dumping on 'lesser' races. But if you don't want to take pride in the trials that your grandfathers went through in years past to assure your existence today... well... that's okay with me. It's your ancestors and history that are being dishonored, not mine.

[King and God]

They should only be proud or specific aspects and contributions of their countries. As a citizen, you are part of a system. Your consumership affects your national economy, and your taxes affect your government's treasury. Your votes contribute to putting law makers in office. In that way, you are part of a system, and it makes sense to be proud of what good it does if there is any. That does not mean every citizen is individually responsible for what the system does. It is just that every citizen is a participating part of a larger unit. That is like carrying a hammer to a group of construction workers, and feel proud of the construction when it is done. You see, one only has reason to feel pride for carrying the hammer, the action oneself has actually done, not for the construction itself. And there's not much reason to feel proud over an utterly insignicifiant act such as carrying a hammer to a group of construction workers, is there? Races that have been belittled, degraded and just plain shat upon (for lack of a better description at the moment) have all the rights in the world to be prideful since they have survived and prospered despite attempts to dehumanize or wipe them out completely. As I have said before, there's not any reason to be proud of it, since one did not commit the action by oneself. One can admire the determination of the individuals within the race to survive in this case, but to feel proud of it when it is not oneself who has done it, is outright pathetic. But if you don't want to take pride in the trials that your grandfathers went through in years past to assure your existence today... well... that's okay with me. It's your ancestors and history that are being dishonored, not mine. Same as I have said above: it makes sense to admire him, but to take pride in something he has done is senseless.

[Merlock]

Aye, if you gather an army and the army emerged victorious from many battles - be proud. If you are born into a certain land and you did many great things amongst these lands - be proud of your achievements. Or of those that live there too but not because of the location, rather because of the achievements. I suppose it's the opposite side of the coin - it's bogus to be racist, that is, discriminate others based on race or nation, so it's likely just as useless to be proud of one's nation - it's either both or none.

[Vex Kitten]

Well then K&G... I pity your ancestors and the ancestors of those who's offspring don't take pride in their racial background and heritage.

[Neruo]

First off: Nice sig Casualty. Secondly: Nice topic. My stance of nationalism, patriotism, whatever, is that for the most part it is just full of crap. I mean, just because something is on the other side of a line that doesn't even exist besides in our heads shouldn't change how nice it is. Something like that. Even worse if people think that because some other people were born in the same country as they were, they somehow are a group that is better/different then others. All this 'God bless America' or 'viva la france' nonsense. I don't see the point. (especially the 'thinking a deity would have a favorite country'-nonsense.) - Hmmm yeah. My point is, that without 'patriotism', there wouldn't have been so many wars. One should do what is right, not for his country, but for people in general, regardless of what flag they live under. The whole nationalism stuff just devides us more. "We brave Russians against the treacherous American pigs.' "We brave Americans against those horrible, undemocratic Russians." (some time ago.) Or "We heroic peace bringers against the terrible sourge of Islam" and "We, warriors from Allah, will destory all the Americans and their sinful ways." Stuff like that. Speaks for itself that often with divisions between people, by nation, by skin-color, by religion, it leads to hate-war-xenophobia and what not. Mankind might be build for tribal war in a way, but we should ascent that nature. It is in our nature to want to belong to a group, a country, a religion, and to be prejudice against other groups, countries and religions. So. Don't be a member of a continent, religion, country, race, state, area, soccer-team or family, Be a member of the World. That would resolve a great deal in the world. Sounds like hippy crap, but it's probably true. And very unrealistic. :/

[Universal Mind]

That is like carrying a hammer to a group of construction workers, and feel proud of the construction when it is done. You see, one only has reason to feel pride for carrying the hammer, the action oneself has actually done, not for the construction itself. And there's not much reason to feel proud over an utterly insignicifiant act such as carrying a hammer to a group of construction workers, is there? If the construction project will house 300 million people and my job is hammer carrier, I do it every day, I participate in electing supervisors, foremen, and architects, I speak out about the way the project is going and try to be influential, I spend a lot of my own money on the project, I am the grandson of two men who put their lives on the line in a world war for the construction team and project and the rest of the city, and I think it is the greatest construction team in the world, then I think having some pride in the construction team makes sense. But it would be silly for me to have the level of pride I would have if I built the whole thing by myself. I don't look at what my country has done and go, "Hey, look at what I did."

[King and God]

Ok, there's not much to argue about then. I personally don't think one could feel proud at all for doing something that unimportant.

[Universal Mind]

Ok, there's not much to argue about then. I personally don't think one could feel proud at all for doing something that unimportant. I'm talking about pride in the construction team, not oneself.

[Merlock]

I suppose it's the opposite side of the coin - it's bogus to be racist, that is, discriminate others based on race or nation, so it's likely just as useless to be proud of one's nation - it's either both or none. Hahah, I just reflected on that and was reminded of: "Only Sith deal in absolutes..."

[CymekSniper]

On thing I will point out that I've noticed with national pride is that the majority of the people are in their early and late teens to early twenties. Most of these people have never been to their country, much less lived there long enough to develope national pride. When I meet kids with extreme national pride only to find out they've never been there, I get pretty annoyed (and yes, it has happened more than once). As for racial pride, I'm all for it. I see racial pride as a way to show racists that you don't care for their predjudices and they don't effect you. If people were ashamed to be a certain race, it only proves that the KKK and like hate groups are succeeding. Sounds like the Mexican kids if you ask me. They always brag about being Mexican and what not, not even realizing that they are Americans (well, some of them are). They should not take pride in being Mexican or having Mexican ancestors, they should be proud to be apart of one of the greatest countries ever to grace the Earth. I don't like racial pride because it seems like the root of all racism. Usually if you have pride in what race you are, then you think another race is inferior or of lesser value.

[Universal Mind]

I don't like racial pride because it seems like the root of all racism. Usually if you have pride in what race you are, then you think another race is inferior or of lesser value. I totally agree. If people would forget about race and focus on individuality, there would be no more racism. Of course, that is purely hypothetical. There will always be racists.

[Indecent Exposure]

race is nothing. Religion maybe, because you choose that, I feel more proud to be a lucid dreamer, than an Asian, that would stick if i was Caucasian, African, South American. I chose lucid dreaming, I didnt choose my race. I nthe same way I am not rpoud of my eye colour. My grand aprents were born in India, my parents born in Uganda, and I was born in England. Me and my cousins argue cosnsitnely over our a few beleive we are English, most think we are Indian. I dont classify myslef as either, im just a Human. Imran

[conisag]

Im white so is my girlfriend, we are very proud of that and nothing will ever change that, i meen it when i say never, we will have white childrena nd they will also be proud of there heritage and our races accomplishments and adavances however i would never agree with telling ANYONE they cant be proud of there race, people what ever race you are if you decide to be proud of it good for you you have that right and godbles you, but dont ever excuse pride for being anti somone. godbless you all.

[Indecent Exposure]

Im white so is my girlfriend, we are very proud of that and nothing will ever change that, i meen it when i say never, we will have white childrena nd they will also be proud of there heritage and our races accomplishments and adavances however i would never agree with telling ANYONE they cant be proud of there race, people what ever race you are if you decide to be proud of it good for you you have that right and godbles you, but dont ever excuse pride for being anti somone. godbless you all. ] Are you proud of your eye colour? Are you proud of the slave trade? Are you proud of the holocaust? White people have done good things and bad things, but they weren't you, if you are proud of the good things, the advancements, do you feel remorse for the slave trade? Imran

[conisag]

yes imran my friend, i do feel remorse, but less so because i know no one alive today is/ or was a slave and the white people made a mistake, yes a big one but we are however human, and we did release them after accepting by our own will that what we did was WRONG. i do feel PRIDE for being who iam what iam and what i will always be, i will not be anti myself or not enjoy everything about myself iam proud to be me iam proud of my hair colour my personality my openess my charactertistics iam proud about alot of things about myself including my eye colour. i would not change a thing, because you are not proud of this this will not change how i feel about myself. iam however my own person. imran i feel i will get a great discussion with you about race/religion/ and even lucid dreaming would you like to chat in private? thanks for your reply

[Indecent Exposure]

Sure thing, just message me, and i'll give you my msn address.

[Universal Mind]

yes imran my friend, i do feel remorse, but less so because i know no one alive today is/ or was a slave and the white people made a mistake, yes a big one but we are however human, and we did release them after accepting by our own will that what we did was WRONG. I completely disagree with that view. You had nothing to do with slavery or the holocaust. People with your skin color did, but that is not you at all. Your skin color commonalities do not make you and them part of the same organization. Do you feel remorse for what certain evil black or oriental individuals have done? You have the same skeletal structure they have. You have the same cirulatory design they have. In fact, you have everything in common with them except a fraction of 1% of their genetic structures. Does that make you feel remorse for what they have done?

[conisag]

Universal mind, thanks for your reply, we have MASSIVE genetical differnces i know ALOT about race and geneticle fields, but i get your point skeletals are not the same whites are stronger than black people because our muscle tissue is of slow twitching meaning we are built for power and endurance, and black people have fast twitching muscles meaning they make fantastic runners asians are (usually) of small build you see where im getting? iam proud because i wnat to be, i choose to be, i consider the fact that everyone is related strongly, and that people of the same race are closer related if you want me to put it in a differnt prospect i consider caucasians "my people" and what they have done iam proud of. i consider other races "my species" which in whole iam proud of our advancements toghther as a species. thanks for your reply universal mind, would you like to join me and imran in private chat? it would be a thought provoking discussion.

[Oneironaut Zero]

whites are stronger than black people because our muscle tissue is of slow twitching meaning we are built for power and endurance, and black people have fast twitching muscles meaning they make fantastic runners Your source for this information is what, exactly? I don't think any one should have any (default) pride in their race. I think one should look over the accomplishments that have been made, through the years, and decide on whether or not those actions should be celebrated.

[conisag]

Your source for this information is what, exactly? I don't think any one should have any (default) pride in their race. I think one should look over the accomplishments that have been made, through the years, and decide on whether or not those actions should be celebrated. Okay can i ask you a question? do you believe in pride? and being proud, example: would you be proud of your sons accomplishments in life? im 17 but i know i would. my source is years of studying in school and the internet and books many many books, after weeding out facts andfinding reasons to not believe the un-beliveable - i.e the holocaust did not happen, i seek truth my dad isnt proud/my mum or any of my family i reasearched in general about race when i did a project at school on racism, i Found all the differences between race and the things that put us toghther. theres a fact that i think makes things very very difficult and the claim iam about to make is bold to say the least- no offence intended at ALL i believe "every man is born equal", a person of african decent or jamiacan has a smaller and lightter brain than say an asian person, but thats a geneticle difference right? so what about the fact that theres black people smarter than asians and whites people smarter than asians and asians smarter than all of us? because the fact is that its not the fact they have smaller/lighter brains but the fact that they work hard and learn much that makes them smart, so again in my opion its not the race that makes you who you are but it IS your race and there fore you have a right and a reason to be proud of who you are as i would be proud of what my son might achieve as so will i on what my forefathers have. im sorry for any bad spelling lol. Oneironaut-thanks for the reply buddy apreciate it i wont be here to cotinue our discussion for 14 days as im off on holiday later this day to a villa in spain-wow when i come back i'll continue our interesting discussion, just when its starting to get really interesting i haveto goi hope everyone has a nice time while im gone and i wish you all the full 14 days of every-night lucidity lol