A question about polar ice caps

[Half/Dreaming]

I have been watching Planet Earth on the Discovery channel (great show, btw), and they showed a before/after comparison of the ice caps in summer compared to winter. There is like a 2000 mile (not 100% on that exact number) difference in diameter between the two. Apparently it grows and shrinks every year. A lot of people are saying that the polar ice caps are melting. Well, yea, but they grow back. So, am i to understand that all the heartbreaking film clips of chunks of ice falling off into the water is just inflamatory nonsense, or it is a fact that each year they are a little less wide (when it is at its peak diameter). I mean, are they just filming something that happens every year? If you check out Wikipedia for "polar ice caps", they have a good illustration of the difference between Sept. and Feb. of the northern ice cap. 1 more little question. A lot of people are saying that if the ice caps keep melting, some places will be underwater (like Amsterdam, i think). I performed a little experiment on accident. I put ice in a cup of water and forgot about it. After the ice melted, the water level went down. So, since ice is EXPANDED water, wont the water level go down if more ice melts? Just a thought. This is, of course, assuming that the ice caps are just big ice cubes floating in the water.

[Howie]

I have been watching Planet Earth on the Discovery channel (great show, btw), and they showed a before/after comparison of the ice caps in summer compared to winter. There is like a 2000 mile (not 100% on that exact number) difference in diameter between the two. Apparently it grows and shrinks every year. A lot of people are saying that the polar ice caps are melting. Well, yea, but they grow back. So, am i to understand that all the heartbreaking film clips of chunks of ice falling off into the water is just inflamatory nonsense, or it is a fact that each year they are a little less wide (when it is at its peak diameter). I mean, are they just filming something that happens every year? If you check out Wikipedia for "polar ice caps", they have a good illustration of the difference between Sept. and Feb. of the northern ice cap. 1 more little question. A lot of people are saying that if the ice caps keep melting, some places will be underwater (like Amsterdam, i think). I performed a little experiment on accident. I put ice in a cup of water and forgot about it. After the ice melted, the water level went down. So, since ice is EXPANDED water, wont the water level go down if more ice melts? Just a thought. This is, of course, assuming that the ice caps are just big ice cubes floating in the water. True to some degree. 32° to be exact. Not all ice is floating. Much of it, more so in Antarctica has land underneath it. Therefore it would raise the level if some areas melted

[Half/Dreaming]

So there is land under there? How much?

[Howie]

So there is land under there? How much? I did not know specifically so I began to research a little. I did find this: Size: 13,209,000 sq km, 5,100,021 sq miles (varies due to changing ice shelves) Percent of Earth's Land: 8.9% Status Antarctica, almost 98% solid ice, was finally considered a continent in 1840, and not just a group of isolated islands. Today it has active territorial claims submitted by Argentina, Australia, Chile, France, New Zealand, Norway and the United Kingdom. (Many of these claims are not recognized by some countries and remain in a constant disputed status) There is a ton of information about the South pole I did not know.

[Xei]

A lot of people are saying that the polar ice caps are melting. Well, yea, but they grow back. So, am i to understand that all the heartbreaking film clips of chunks of ice falling off into the water is just inflamatory Yep. Congrats on seeing past the media. All the footage of polar bears on ice is just screwing with people's emotions, too. It happens every year, and the bears just jump into the sea and swim back to the mainland. They spend a very large proportion of their lives at sea, actually. Now all you've gotta do is take a look at the numbers and you're well on your way to realising the unscientific nonsense that is 'Global Warming'.

[Neruo]

Yes, of-course, no scientist ever thought of that! In the winter it grows back! Nobel prize for you! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4228411.stm Of course not. It melts over Years.

[Harrycombs]

The problem is the temperture world wide gets raised. Eventually, the ice will all melt. So it is still a problem, the world is still getting warmer.

[Half/Dreaming]

I see no need for sarcasm, neuro. Im pretty sure i asked a question and wasnt an a-hole about it. Congrats to YOU for being SO much smarter than me. I was mostly poking fun at media reports that take advantage of the fact that most people do not know about this constant melting. Global Warming is real. Anyone who disputes that is ill-informed. I just dont think our (proven) small contributions can destroy the planet. A couple more questions. If more UV rays get in to the surface, wont that mean more plant life, thus more oxygen, thus more O zone?

[joey11223]

hmm but i dont think we are that responsible really. Co2 is still a very tiny percentage, and it naturally rises anyway, its earths cycle. So now we going to enter the "hot" age for a few thousand years, then the ice will creep back and we will have another ice age. We might be speeding up this process but its going to happen anyway, the reason the ice caps are melting is that the they are whats left of the last ice age, so yes its time for them to melt away. When theres to much C02 forest fires will be rarer and more plants will grow(faster,bigger). They will producse more oxygen. When there is too much oxygen, there will be more forest fires, and more active animals( whose death will release co2, carbon cycle). So this has been happening for millions if not billions of years. I think we just have to face it's going to happen and start thinking of ways to adapt, rather then trying to stop something which is impossible to stop.

[skysaw]

I think we just have to face it's going to happen and start thinking of ways to adapt, rather then trying to stop something which is impossible to stop. You seem sure that changing it is impossible and that adapting to it is possible. Considering what's at stake, don't you think it might be worthwhile to consider that the opposite may in fact be true? Especially since most scientists seem to think this is the case?

[Half/Dreaming]

You seem sure that changing it is impossible and that adapting to it is possible. Considering what's at stake, don't you think it might be worthwhile to consider that the opposite may in fact be true? Especially since most scientists seem to think this is the case? Ive heard that most qualified scientists think it is inevitable. Unfortunately, they have no plan of action, and therefore their opinions are considered worthless. People LOVE drama. Nothing is more dramatic than the end of the world. Any person who can come up with the most destructive prediction of our actions, and can back it up with a theory (bogus or not) will get on the news. Just look what happened with Al Gore. Qualified geologists have said Al Gore's findings are from loose studies and 100 year old data. Does anybody trust the temperature findings from 1906? How can you find an accurate mean-temprature for earth with data from that time period?

[skysaw]

Qualified geologists have said Al Gore's findings are from loose studies and 100 year old data. Source please? Perhaps you heard the data begins at 100 years ago? The mean global temperature is a matter of meteorological record beginning around 1880, when people thought to start recording these things. Earlier temperatures are calculated based on geology, but there's no point in even going that route after 1880, so what exactly woud they have been talking about? For the record, here are the mean global temperatures from 1880 to 2005: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempera...ord_since_1880

[Half/Dreaming]

I cant trust that data. A lot of those records are before globalization. Are you saying that they have completely accurate readings, within 1.8 C, from every corner of the globe? If not, the average temp could easily be skewed. Has anybody questioned wether our sun is just getting hotter?

[Harrycombs]

I cant trust that data. A lot of those records are before globalization. Are you saying that they have completely accurate readings, within 1.8 C, from every corner of the globe? If not, the average temp could easily be skewed. Has anybody questioned wether our sun is just getting hotter? Older instuments can be pretty acurate. There are also other ways to find the temperture from over 100 years ago. The info is accurate. Global warming is definately real.

[Half/Dreaming]

Real? Yes. Imminate destruction of the planet and the complete anhiliation of all carbon based life forms caused by my Chevy Tahoe? Probably not. The simple fact that the earth was once covered by lava and then by ice is proof enough to me that our climate shifts. It also proves to me that there isnt a damn thing we can do about it.......except misplace blame on the Republicans. If it werent for global warming, we would still be in the ice age. Think about that.

[skysaw]

The simple fact that the earth was once covered by lava and then by ice is proof enough to me that our climate shifts. It also proves to me that there isnt a damn thing we can do about it... Wah! It's too *hard!* I can't make a difference! Better to give up without a fight I suppose. I mean since you've proven it and all. .....except misplace blame on the Republicans. Newsflash: PLANET EARTH IS NON-PARTISAN! Any dangers we face we face together, regardless of your affiliation. I don't single out Republicans, I single out individuals who deny global warming because the oil companies are lining their pockets. The fact that these people are usually Republicans is incidental to my concerns. The fact that you are letting the oil companies tell you what's what without questioning their motives is quite central to my concern, however. If it werent for global warming, we would still be in the ice age. Think about that. Yes, thank you Mr. Science, I've never even considered that. And now that we have temperatures that support life well, you want to start the "Charred Age?" What's the sense in that?

[Half/Dreaming]

Wah! It's too *hard!* I can't make a difference! Better to give up without a fight I suppose. I mean since you've proven it and all. Newsflash: PLANET EARTH IS NON-PARTISAN! Any dangers we face we face together, regardless of your affiliation. I don't single out Republicans, I single out individuals who deny global warming because the oil companies are lining their pockets. The fact that these people are usually Republicans is incidental to my concerns. The fact that you are letting the oil companies tell you what's what without questioning their motives is quite central to my concern, however. Yes, thank you Mr. Science, I've never even considered that. And now that we have temperatures that support life well, you want to start the "Charred Age?" What's the sense in that? ha! Such ANGER from those who dissagree with me. Arrrrrrgggh!!! My question to you. How can you predict the future of earth of 120 years of data? Especially considering the 6 billion+ yearl ife span of earth.

[skysaw]

ha! Such ANGER from those who dissagree with me. Arrrrrrgggh!!! My question to you. How can you predict the future of earth of 120 years of data? Especially considering the 6 billion+ yearl ife span of earth. I leave the predicting to people who know better: scientists. I let them gather the data, and review it for myself. I look for data that is published in peer-reviewed papers, and that has a general consensus among the scientific community. Where do you get your data? You still haven't provided a source for your geologist quote. Nor have you produced a single shred of scientific study that supports your viewpoint. And actually the data goes back millions of years. How do you suppose we know about the ice age in the first place?

[Harrycombs]

ha! Such ANGER from those who dissagree with me. Arrrrrrgggh!!! My question to you. How can you predict the future of earth of 120 years of data? Especially considering the 6 billion+ yearl ife span of earth. By looking at the average increase in temperture over years.... Its easy to see the pattern. Go watch inconviniet Truth! They show a graph that shows that the temperture has been rising drasticly over the past 100 years!!! The Earth has been around 6 billion years, and its cycle has been working. But we are capable of changing it.

[Out of the Blue]

Wasn't there some big deal about Global Cooling a couple decades ago? Also, as far as the general concensus about scientists on global warming. I'd have to disagree. Everyday I hear about more and more scientists "coming out" and saying they're skeptical or disagree with many of the alarmists. And that huge review that came out from the UN showing the concensus of scientists is a little bogus. Several of the signatures on that document are actually from scientists who disagree with the panel's findings. And I believe with some googling you can find a petition that was started not too long ago signed by (verrified) scientists rejecting the common theories about global warming. I think there are over 17,000 signatures. That's all I wanted to say. [edit] found the petition: http://www.oism.org/pproject/index.htm [edit edit] Ah man, I forgot what this topic is about, and I'm just furthering bickering. I should've posted this in a different thread. People, let's talk about the icecaps again. I kinda find Half Dreaming's question pretty interesting.

[skysaw]

Wasn't there some big deal about Global Cooling a couple decades ago? No, I don't think so, though people like to talk about this. Someone please show me this was the case. I was alive and well throughout the 70s, 80s, AND 90s, but don't recall this phenomena. [edit] found the petition: http://www.oism.org/pproject/index.htm [edit edit] Ah man, I forgot what this topic is about, and I'm just furthering bickering. I should've posted this in a different thread. People, let's talk about the icecaps again. I kinda find Half Dreaming's question pretty interesting. I won't get into the how little the number of signatures taken from a web petition actually means, where identity verification is impossible. But as to the author of that paper, Frederick Seitz... are you aware that this is the man who helped R. J. Reynolds in the 70s and 80s with research to back up the "fact" that cigarette smoking is not dangerous for your health? Throughout the years, the tobacco industry ran numerous ads in newspapers and magazines citing its multi-million-dollar research program as proof of its commitment to science—and arguing that the evidence on the health effects of smoking was mixed. --- sound like anything that might be going on today? And are you aware that "Seitz earned approximately $585,000 for his consulting work for R. J. Reynolds, while continuing to draw a salary as president emeritus at Rockefeller University, an institution founded in 1901 and subsidized with profits from Standard Oil, the predecessor corporation of ExxonMobil?" (From the Vanity Fair expose on Seitz) And are you aware that in his original scientific paper on global warming, Seitz asserted that secondhand smoke posed no real health risks? (an almost complete non-sequitur to this issue, by the way). In an interview he said "I just can't believe it's that bad." From the Vanity Fair expose: ..."most of the public argument was carried by lesser scientists and, above all, by lobbyists and paid spokesmen for the Global Climate Coalition. Created and funded by the energy and auto industries, the Coalition spent millions of dollars spreading the message that global warming was an uncertain threat. Journalist Ross Gelbspan exposed the corporate campaign in his 1997 book, The Heat Is On, which quoted a 1991 strategy memo: the goal was to "reposition global warming as theory rather than fact." And there it is. The smoking gun. "reposition global warming as theory rather than fact." Interesting choice of a word... "reposition." So congratulations, you found a scientist who spoke out against the threat. How do you like this guy you found? Anybody else you'd like to pass under the microscope?

[Harrycombs]

Wasn't there some big deal about Global Cooling a couple decades ago? Yes. We fixed Global Cooling, because every one was getting sick from polluted air. Now global Warming is a problem.

[Half/Dreaming]

By looking at the average increase in temperture over years.... Its easy to see the pattern. Go watch inconviniet Truth! They show a graph that shows that the temperture has been rising drasticly over the past 100 years!!! The Earth has been around 6 billion years, and its cycle has been working. But we are capable of changing it. Once again, you cant determine the hell's-end prediction of climate on a 100+ year rise. It is just not logical. Btw, how much money do you think people like Al Gore stand to make from their predictions? Caring sells. Drama sells. I dont make conclusions. Many of you have said with 100% certainty that humans are going to kill the planet. Please, PLEASE tell me you agree that global warming happens INDEPENDENT of human action. PLEASE tell me that

[Harrycombs]

Once again, you cant determine the hell's-end prediction of climate on a 100+ year rise. It is just not logical. Btw, how much money do you think people like Al Gore stand to make from their predictions? Caring sells. Drama sells. I dont make conclusions. Many of you have said with 100% certainty that humans are going to kill the planet. Please, PLEASE tell me you agree that global warming happens INDEPENDENT of human action. PLEASE tell me that It can. That happened from like 1000-1500. But if you look at the graph in inconvinient truth, it jumped. A lot. We are causing the world to heat up at an extremely rapid rate. Global warming is one of the causes of there being so many hurricanes. You can see the effects all ready.

[Half/Dreaming]

Good. Atleast we agree on that. You would be amazed at how many people deny that. The truth is, anything we predict is probably going to be wrong. We cant predict the future. I cant predict a cooling in 2020. Others cant predict an underwater Holland in 2050. But we do. Correlation doesnt always show causation. Dont get me wrong, i dont think we shouldnt do nothing. At the least i would like cleaner air. I live in Atlanta. When im driving on I-20 into the city, i see that purple-greenish haze above the city. I would like nothing more than to see that go away. Really, i just HATE it when people assume too much and tell me i am the future murderer of billions because of i drive an SUV, and because i am an American. The global warming cult is causing way too much smugness and self-ritcheousness (bad spelling, maybe). Cleaner air, and stop cutting down trees (even though 3/4 of earth's Oxygen is created from sea algae). I will not argue on this. But I will not dramatically change my lifestyle by being scared.