An even greater sense of freedom?

[SourCherryBoy]

For me, lucid dreams have always represented a very great sense of freedom. I mean - you can do absolutely anything, from summoning people and various items, to actually being the air that you're breathing in. So my question is - can there be an even greater sense of freedom? How? Why? Would being able to do all the things one does in LDs in reality be a greater freedom? And then again... dreaming and lucid dreams are a part of reality... Crap... I think I just came up with an answer. I'll try to explain. Umm... as we all define 'freedom' differently, then we also appreciate freedom differently. Therefore, experiencing a greater sense of freedom has a lot to do with what we know about the world and what opinions we hold about it. Whatever... hard to explain. Let me just rephrase the question: What, for you, would be the ultimate sense of freedom? Being the... creator?

[Half/Dreaming]

No question. Living on a self-sustainable island in the tropics with close friends. It wouldnt be communist, though!! Having to provide for other people is NOT freedom .If my friends dont hunt, they dont eat!! There would have to be no other predators. Being afraid of getting eaten would take away from freedom. If people had lucid dreaming abilities is real life, there would be no sense of freedom, because there would be too much of it. I'd be constantly afraid that somebody would summon a meteor and destroy the Earth. Well, but, then again, i could just summon an even bigger hand to slap it away. Dude, what a mind fuck.

[ThePhobiaViewed]

I think this is interesting and we should keep it going. Before I knew about lucid dreaming I always thought about how awesome it would be to have a watch that would allow you to pause time or do stuff like real life then go back to when you started it so none of it really happened. I think having a device that would allow you to LD perfectly whenever you wanted and then when you come back no time will have passed. Morphing real time rather than Lding wouldnt allow you to fly and stuff so I think an ultra realistic LD world would be better.

[Oneironaught]

So my question is - can there be an even greater sense of freedom? How? Why? I'm only going to comment on this one part. Many people have had dreams in which they are simply a point of awareness, without any "physical" body. To me, that would be a high degree of freedom. I'm sure I've experienced that in non-lucid dreams but, don't recall ever doing so in an LD.

[Neruo]

Hmmm... Pretty good question. What is theoretically the 'highest' and most plentifull kind of freedom one can have... Hmm... Actually, I don't think you can really define that. I mean, it's like with happiness. What is the ultimate level of happiness that can be achieved? Really think about it. I mean, you could always genetically enhance someone to have a bigger part of his brain reserved for potentially 'being happy'. It's all completely, 100% relative. Same with the world. What the is best hypothetical utopia one could create if one was some kind of god? Wouldn't a world full with billions of people with non-stop dopamine (or whatever the happy-stuff is the brain uses) injections? If you ask the people, they would all be perfectly happy. However, that doesn't really hold more value then other kinds of happiness. A world with 100.000 happy people, is it as 'good' as 'important' as a world with 100.000.000.000 happy people? Why? I think it is the same with freedom. It is all completely relative. Maybe the sense of freedom is also like an emotion. At the very least, the sense of freedom is linked to our desires. Now I think of it, freedom might be a paradox. Every time you do something in freedom, you are doing that for a reason. Enjoying your freedom to look at pretty girls is controlled by your natural desire to like the opposite sex. You are always a slave to your own desires, to your emotions.

[SourCherryBoy]

Good answer, Neruo. Very thought-provoking. Also, thanks, Oneironaught. Being a dot of awareness just became my next lucid task. Even though it's pretty much what we all are right now. Little dots of awareness. : )

[Oneironaught]

Good answer, Neruo. Very thought-provoking. Also, thanks, Oneironaught. Being a dot of awareness just became my next lucid task. Even though it's pretty much what we all are right now. Little dots of awareness. : ) I like to think of myself as a little dot of blissful un-awareness, actually. In a way, we have dreams of that nature on a fairly regular basis. It's pretty much the same thing as the 3rd-person point of view. But, if you achieve it within an LD, you possibly have a greater sense of freedom than if you were an embodied awareness.

[Like A Bird Without Arms]

Actually, I think feeling free would have to come from within myself. Being free would involve losing some of my social inhibitions -- for example, I'd stop being scared of talking to strangers and anything else silly like that. I just hate that for the most part /I/ am responsible for not doing what I want to do. This probably isn't the best answer, and it's probably not the freest I could be, but it's the only thing that comes to mind right now.

[A Humble Sinner]

I don't think I could really tell you what my ultimate sense of freedom would be, because I don't think it is possible for an ultimate sense of freedom to exist. If true freedom did exist, you would have the freedom to do anything, with no impairments, to make any choice - including the choice to not be free. Such a choice is necessary to exist for true freedom to be a reality, yet to make that choice would in itself be an impairment on your freedom. Which makes a paradox. To a lesser extent, every other choice impairs you in the same way - If you have the freedom to take an apple, you are at the same time ignoring other choices, such as taking a pear or a banana. Every choice you make would restrict many other choices, and thus make true freedom impossible. I think I know what my ultimate freedom would be - to live in a freedom, but with boundaries. Without them, freedom is just a word.

[badassbob]

Personally I think that omnipotence is true freedom. It's freedom to do anything. Which means you're restricted by nothing. So yeah, bringing the power of lucid dreams into waking life (IMO) would be the ultimate freedom.

[Half/Dreaming]

You're all wrong. True freedom is not having children

[badassbob]

Haha, they leave you alone if you hit 'em hard enough.

[Kromoh]

Being invulnerable. I have already played many games, watched a lot of Superman, and to me the ultimate sense of freedom would be to do anything you want without getting hurt. Jumping down a building, breathing underwater, extrahuman strength, ability to fly and to manipulate all you like. Being a god, in other words (or a Gamemaster of a game). That is complete freedom to me. And no, I don't think we are fully free in dreams. Some things can still affect us, and we may not be able t odo some things. That is not in my idea of total freedom.