In Response to Penn and Teller On the Nature of NDEs

[Matt5678]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAywxhVvLU4 this is a discussion of the science involved in NDEs I have seen this short video about NDEs by penn and teller. And I have seen it used in several other threads on the dream views forums.. I really wanted to post a response to this video because I really disagree with it. my first problem with it is its obvious bias. Its easy to tell seeing how they only asked scientific questions to the doctors who agree with penn and teller. They did have Dr. Moody on the video. But they let him talk for thirty seconds and then insulted him. Why did they make fun of him? Im guessing in order to discredit what someone is saying you first have to destroy their reputation. My second problem is how they only presented half the story. They did present a plausible theory about the nature of NDEs (the dyeing brain theory) but they didn’t present any evidence to the contrary. It wasnt as if they said “we choose to belief this natural theory, even though there is evidence that suggests something different” They made it seem as if there is no evidence what so ever to strike questions at the dyeing brain theory. There was a six year research project conducted by Pim Van Lommel and a number of other doctors and scientists. This was a landmark research project. Anyone who spends ten minutes searching google about NDEs will know about this study. But penn and teller make no mention to this study. I suppose because It doesn’t support the dyeing brain theory. This is an excerpt from the research interview. in the past some scientists have asserted that the NDE must be simply a hallucination brought on by the loss of oxygen to the brain [called "anoxia"] after the heart has stopped beating. This study casts doubt on that theory, in the words of its chief investigator, cardiologist Pim van Lommel, MD, "Our results show that medical factors cannot account for the occurrence of NDE. All patients had a cardiac arrest, and were clinically dead with unconsciousness resulting from insufficient blood supply to the brain. In those circumstances, the EEG (a measure of brain electrical activity) becomes flat, and if CPR is not started within 5-10 minutes, irreparable damage is done to the brain and the patient will die. According to the theory that NDE is caused by anoxia, all patients in our study should have had an NDE, but only 18% reported having an NDE... There is also a theory that NDE is caused psychologically, by the fear of death. But only a very small percentage of our patients said they had been afraid seconds before their cardiac arrest -- it happened too suddenly for them to realize what was occurring. More patients than the frightened ones reported NDEs." Finally, differences in drug treatments during resuscitation did not correlate with the likelihood of patients experiencing NDEs, nor with the depth of their NDEs the video also forgot to even mention cases of people who had OBEs were they experienced real events in a period of brain death. Here is a excerpt from Dr. Saboms study includes a detailed medical and scientific analysis of a near-death experience of a woman named Pam Reynolds. She underwent a rare operation to remove a giant basilar artery aneurysm in her brain that threatened her life. The size and location of the aneurysm, however, precluded its safe removal using the standard neuro-surgical techniques. She was referred to a doctor who had pioneered a daring surgical procedure known as hypothermic cardiac arrest. It allowed Pam's aneurysm to be excised with a reasonable chance of success. This operation, nicknamed "standstill" by the doctors who perform it, required that Pam's body temperature be lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head. In everyday terms, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life. During the time that Pam was in standstill, she experienced a NDE. Her remarkably detailed veridical out-of-body observations during her surgery were later verified to be very accurate. This case is considered to be one of the strongest cases of veridical evidence in NDE research because of her ability to describe the unique surgical instruments and procedures used and her ability to describe in detail these events while she was clinically and brain dead. And they forgot to mention the cases of people who were blind from birth, but could see during their NDE/OBE here is a excerpt from Dr Kenneth Ring’s study Vicki Umipeg, a forty-five year old blind woman, was just one of the more than thirty persons that 1. Dr. Ken Ring and Sharon Cooper interviewed at length during a two-year study just completed concerning near-death experiences of the blind. The results of their study appear in their newest book Mindsight. Vicki was born blind, her optic nerve having been completely destroyed at birth because of an excess of oxygen she received in the incubator. Yet, she appears to have been able to see during her NDE. Her story is a particularly clear instance of how NDEs of the congenitally blind can unfold in precisely the same way as do those of sighted persons. As you will see, apart from the fact that Vicki was not able to discern color during her experience, the account of her NDE is absolutely indistinguishable from those with intact visual systems. The following is an excerpt from Dr. Ring's latest book reprinted by permission. Vicki told Dr. Ring she found herself floating above her body in the emergency room of a hospital following an automobile accident. She was aware of being up near the ceiling watching a male doctor and a female nurse working on her body, which she viewed from her elevated position. Vicki has a clear recollection of how she came to the realization that this was her own body below her. I have to say that in the entire video I did not see a respectable skeptical point of view. I saw biased and obnoxious jerks who were looking for any explanation for the phenomena which suggests a different conclusion than their beliefs. I thought it was horrible how they showed no respect at all for the people they interviewed. Of course I didn’t really agree with the couple who thinks their old dog is reincarnated in their new dog..thats a little odd. But does it make them bad people like penn and teller make them out to be? I really think the only reason they even invited those people on the show was to try to humiliate the scientists who research the experiences and discredit the research that has been done. I think its wrong how they just rejected the evidence out of hand because it didn’t fall in line with their personal beliefs. That is all I have to say, im wide open to discussion

[Harrycombs]

Penn and Teller are great magicians, but there show is always totally biased. They always come up with a conclusion before they even start the show. Also, when they did 9/11, they did NOTHING to prove the conspiracy theorists wrong. They just made fun of them. See there magic show if you get the chance, but don't trust this show. The only one I agree with is the one about the War on Drugs.

[Matt5678]

especially when it comes to religious topics. Penn at least comes off like a militant atheist. i just hate how instead of giving the full point of view penn just curses at the guests who dont agree with him. then at the end of that video he talks about living good and treating people fairly. i think that is the hypocritical BS right there. Just my opinions. Any others?

[Serkat]

The whole point of the show is that it presents the discussion in a one-sided way. I don't blame Penn & Teller. The show's name is "Bullshit!". It's not a scientific documentary. I disagree with them on several issues, for example Hypnosis, Gun Control, Yoga, Self-Help and 12-Stepping. All of those episodes showed only the very worst and were very one-sided. Calling Yoga "just stretching" is idiotic. Obviously there are some Yoga classes out there that don't have much to do with what Yoga really is but that's not Yoga's fault, it's just humans doing a shitty job. Anyway... there are some episodes that make appropriate use of the one-sidedness to get the point across. Presenting a balanced view with topics such as ESP, alien abductions, PSI, PETA and supernatural claims wouldn't make any sense. The more the topic has to do with natural sciences, the less important is a balanced view. If you're making a political or a psychological statement then you can't just go out and be 100% certain that you're "right". With natural sciences you can (to a certain degree). Currently there is no reason to believe that NDEs are real in the way that they are believed to be. It's just Bullshit. So you have what... A bunch of over-aged ladies claiming NDEs and the gray-bearded Pam Reynolds case? There's no evidence to support the idea that NDEs are disconnected from the brain. It wouldn't even make sense. I'm not saying I know how NDEs can be explained since I am not that knowledgeable in this area. What I'm certain of is that there's no reason to believe that they are supernatural. We don't know shit about consciousness and the way the brain works so why would be able to explain NDEs? Of course you can take the easy way out and say "Well, it's supernatural". I say you're just lazy. For all we know NDEs could be false memories. This is why I consider one-sidedness appropriate in this topic. It's no better than people claiming to see auras etc.

[Matt5678]

i respect your opinions but choose to respond because i want to challenge them Currently there is no reason to believe that NDEs are real in the way that they are believed to be. It's just Bullshit. So you have what... A bunch of over-aged ladies claiming NDEs and the gray-bearded Pam Reynolds case? i think this is because you haven’t looked at the evidence or just deny it. but this is a strategy some skeptics use. they try to simplify evidence but dont really understand it. the real evidence is clear lucid thought processes during a time of clinical death, observing real life events while unconscious or clinically dead, not just in the room but sometimes down the block or at the patients home. patients blind from birth being able to see. scientific advancements being "brought back" from the NDE. sometimes a terminal disease disappears in the patient after their NDE. common elements found in NDEs from all over the world. some patients have been dead for an hour or so before they are revived, mysteriously they have no brain damage from the lack of oxygen. in fact i have never heard of an NDE patient having brain damage from being clinically dead too long i can elaborate on any of these topics further if you like..... i also always like to mention how people are dramatically changed by an NDE. i know this isnt proof, and i dont know if it really constitutes as "evidence" but i think it removes the idea that thousands of patients have lied. or the idea that an atheist becomes a priest just to make $10,000 off book sales about their NDE. There's no evidence to support the idea that NDEs are disconnected from the brain. i disagree and think there is evidence. i might even go as far as saying there is very little evidence that NDEs are hallucinations. a new study is under way by dr.sam parnia. if this is successful it will be a very hard piece of evidence to just explain away. I can elaborate on this new study further if you like..... Of course you can take the easy way out and say "Well, it's supernatural". I’ve never said that and i dont think i even would. im pretty certain eventually we will understand what NDEs are. wether it be 5 years, 50 years or 500 years. For all we know NDEs could be false memories. that is an actual theory purposed that NDEs are just memories from earlier in your life. but researchers really doubt it. i would say the most plausible natural explanation is that NDEs are produced by the right temporal lobe. although the Researchers have objections to the evidence purposed. some scientists tried to prove that NDEs are caused by the right temporal lobe by stimulating it in an experiment. they found when stimulating that section of the brain it produced NDE like experiences. however when you really look at the cases between the normal NDEs and the artificial NDEs the differences heavily outweigh the similarities. thanks for reading