Attention Disorders, BAH!

[Acertine]

Ok, Im going to rant and vent on a subject that has really started to piss me off in this day and age, attention disorders I hate people that use ADD or ADHD as an excuse to act like total F*&^% tards all the time im not saying that ADD or ADHD doesnt exist, I just think that everyone, everyone, every single person on this great earth has ADD or ADHD to some degree, and its just the ones that get diagnosed and medicated and try to use it as a handicap in life are the ones that have no self control people, mostly kids that are being diagnosed dont need medication, they need beatings, light or severe depending on the person dont give a kid riddilin, bend him over your knee and give him a spanking on the bare ass with a leather belt (with or without the buckle) that will make him pay more attention and quit acting like a dumb nut but you cant do that these days, its wrong to hit kids dont hit mommy billy thats not nice, billy if you dont be nice your gonna go on time out, billy put that down or your grounded its BS, is what it is, when I was a kid, these were the words I heard, "Josh if you do that again your getting a spanking", and if I did it again, you bet it was a bent over the knee bare ass getting hit with a leather belt, and I think its made me a better more responsible adult im not saying beat your kids, just discipline them, I think the lack of physical discipline in todays world is the cause for all the kids getting diagnosed with attention disorders, and is directly responsible for all the lawsuits and general whining going on the world if you dont discipline your kids your turning them into whiny little ADD ADHD pricks that will sue anyone who looks at them wrong and will kill themselves when they have any sort of stress that comes into their life so help your kids, by giving them a good ass kicking when they deserve it, thats all im trying to say this message brought to you by the "quit your goddamn whining" corporation

[Merlock]

Hmm, I'm not sure what you mean in this particular rant since it seems like you're talking about something more seriously annoying than people that claim to have ADD. But even here on the forum I see a lot of people often saying that they are failing at WILD and other techniques that require focusing because of ADD/ADHD. However, that doesn't call for beatings. It calls for realising that everyone, due to the hectic nature of every-day life, doesn't have the innate mindframe of someone who has been meditating for years. So, aye, attention deficit disorders seem to be thrown about too much when, in fact, the people just have trouble focusing at lack of meditation practice and all such. But you seem to be talking about something somewhat different than attention deficit when it comes to putting focus into something serious like lucid dreaming techniques. Care to elaborate? (Maybe this belongs in Extended Discussion, seeing how it brings up a social issue.)

[Acertine]

maybe I kinda flowed from one thing to another thing to a completely different thing didn't I? gotta quit doing that I just have a lot to say and a hard time saying it and I don't like to make really long posts even though I do it all the time, like this one for example, I should just end it here but im not going to im not saying solve everything tied to ADD and ADHD with beatings, I even said don't beat your kids, discipline them, there is a line, though hard to see at times, there is one that seperates those two but what I am trying to say, truly, in between the lines maybe, but what I am really trying to say is that too many people these days are trying to find a cop out, trying to do anything and everything but take responsibility for their tardness if you have a hard time concentrating, then practice, nothing in life is easy, everything even the small things take time work and patience, and if you cant handle that, then tough, cause thats life and no one gets out alive (haha, that last part is in my sig :bravo

[Merlock]

Aye, well, I brought up the matter of having trouble with concentration. What I meant was, can you elaborate on the..."tardness"? What is it that you were saying in the original post that you look upon as deserving a beating? What types of actions are you talking about in particular that people do and use ADHD to cover up?

[Universal Mind]

I have ADD, but I very much agree with you. I have the laid back form of it. I has always had me drifting off into space and being very laid back, though I can snap out of it and be very theatrical if something interesting is going on. I am still ordinarily in the space out state. But way too many kids these days have been diagnosed with the hyperactive form of it. After teaching school for a few years, I can definitely say that most of those kids just need to have the law laid down on their heads. They need a strong father to scare the bejesus out of them into acting right. It would work better than all of the drugs they can legally be prescribed.

[Acertine]

Oh! ok I can do that, thats the easy part, I just thought it was obvious, but I am sorry, I should have elaborated Ahem intelligent people who get bad grades because they dont do their schoolwork and then blame it on attention deficit schools changing their curriculum, dumbing it down, so that it is easier for the ADD kids to pay attention and understand, its called lazy not ADD in the ninth grade I had to tape myself reading one of the english reading assignments cause one of the jocks claimed he had ADD and couldn't concentrate on the book, he was just too lazy to read it and then all these things lead to stuff like: people whining because illegals are taking jobs that they themselves are too lazy to do that lady who sued mcdonalds cause she spilt hot coffee on herself that she bought from mcdonalds the man who sued the matchstick company for arson the lady who sued the grocery store because she tripped over a child in their store and broke her ankle, even though the child was her own its just stuff like this, basically this is alot more to do than just Attention stuff maybe I should have made the title more vague and general mostly this is about people taking responsibility for their own weaknesses, if you have a hard time concentrating on something, than practice concentrating, if your not willing to do the job don't complain when someone else does it

[Acertine]

I have ADD, but I very much agree with you. I have the laid back form of it. I has always had me drifting off into space and being very laid back, though I can snap out of it and be very theatrical if something interesting is going on. I am still ordinarily in the space out state. But way too many kids these days have been diagnosed with the hyperactive form of it. After teaching school for a few years, I can definitely say that most of those kids just need to have the law laid down on their heads. They need a strong father to scare the bejesus out of them into acting right. It would work better than all of the drugs they can legally be prescribed. YES!! you are my new favorite person man, I love you... in a totally plutonic way

[Xaqaria]

I think more effective than beating your kids to discipline them is manual labor. I think it teaches many more lessons than just "if you do something wrong, something you won't enjoy is going to happen" Manual labor, although not very enjoyable to children, will also teach them work ethics, will train them physically, and will train their attention span. Depending on the task, it may also teach them a valuable skill. I realize this isn't precisely on topic, but I don't have much to say about the attention deficit disorders; I pretty much agree with everything you said on that subject. I do think that certain people have emotional and mental imbalances when contrasted against the norm, but I think our society should try to teach people ways to deal with their own minds personally instead of giving them a drug to take to alter their internal chemistry.

[Merlock]

Aye, I see your point. Society is gaining more and more weak-minded people. Those that think the world changes them, not that they change the world. If we had a more primitive society but with modern ideals of respect and consideration, perhaps things would be different. Where every criminal that dares cause injustice would be under threat of death because the chances of their victim being trained in using a weapon and slaughtering them on the spot would be higher. Though they wouldn't be tried in court for doing so. Since criminals wouldn't be considered human. They'd lose all their rights immediately when breaking the law. And in turn, the criminals would have to be well trained and no simple drunk from the street would be able to cause any harm. (Firearms are the most horribly cowardly and injust weapon in the world, anyone can kill someone with a gun.) But that's my own ranting going on about the lack of "meaning" in modern society. No matter how much less potential harm the way things are now may bring.

[Acertine]

I think more effective than beating your kids to discipline them is manual labor. I think it teaches many more lessons than just "if you do something wrong, something you won't enjoy is going to happen" Manual labor, although not very enjoyable to children, will also teach them work ethics, will train them physically, and will train their attention span. Depending on the task, it may also teach them a valuable skill. I realize this isn't precisely on topic, but I don't have much to say about the attention deficit disorders; I pretty much agree with everything you said on that subject. I do think that certain people have emotional and mental imbalances when contrasted against the norm, but I think our society should try to teach people ways to deal with their own minds personally instead of giving them a drug to take to alter their internal chemistry. How could I have forgotten about that one?! yes!! thats probably more important then beatings... I mean discipline... all the good things like pulling weeds, chopping wood, digging a ditch, filling said ditch back in, digging the ditch again, raking leaves, all that good stuff that turns a boy or girl into a responsible young person thanks for bringing it up oh and don't forget going out and cutting your own switch for the paddling your gonna get, did that a few times, my grandpa had a nice oak switch that he named "The Joshua Stick" cause I was the one he used it one the most

[pj]

I'm a diagnosed ADD. My parents, God bless 'em, had no clue what to do with me. I would have benefited tremendously from a good, consistent dose of steady discipline, but the "wisdom of the day," courtesy of Dr. Spock and his disciples, discouraged that sort of thing. Right up front, I do not see it as a handicap or disorder. It is a GIFT - a gift we share with some of the greatest innovators throughout history. We're ALL different. Pointing to those differences as disorders or flaws is the trashing of some of the most powerful resources available to mankind. The only reason this is considered a disorder is because most people aren't wired this way, and they are the ones (because they are the majority anyway) who tend to run things like schools and be managers of businesses. We're different and that can only be bad, so we allow ourselves to be convinced to medicate our special qualities into oblivion. Using our differences to excuse bad behavior IS bad behavior. It would have been nice to have learned that a lot younger in life.

[Acertine]

wow this is great, I expected to be booed off of the forum for having a thread like this, im glad people know how to think critically and aren't going to hang me for my opinions

[Vision]

I have ADD but only when others speak!

[fairytale complex]

yeah fucking kids lets make sure they loose their grace and forget how to love , all for the dissorder we gave them.

[Universal Mind]

I do believe in ADD. I have it, and I know first hand that it makes paying attention extremely difficult and sometimes close to impossible. People started really noticing I had it in the first grade. I remember when I was so spaced out that I didn't realize that a spelling test was being given. I sat there through the test and didn't write anything down. Studying notes was often like a Zen meditation exercise, and I would often get to the point where it was impossible to keep going for a while. The more interesting the notes, the more stimulation my brain had and the easier it was to study them. But I would sometimes read that same boring sentence twenty times to even know what it said. I would space out in class to the point of losing track of the fact that I was supposed to be trying not to space out. I would never know what the question was if a teacher asked a question and then called my name. I did things like keep my hand up after the teacher asked for a show of hands. My hand would stay raised until somebody pointed out that my hand was still raised. I once walked into a grocery store with my load of dry cleaning clothes and made it all the way to the produce section. ADD is very real. However, I do not buy the idea that the hyperactivity that often comes with it is not something that can be controlled. Having hyper tendencies is one thing, but acting on them is another. I also think that a lot of the kids that have been diagnosed use it as an excuse to be bad. When you get onto them, they say, "I didn't take my medication today. That's why I am acting like this," and they smile while they are saying it and go right back to it immediately. I don't buy that when their words and tones show that they have no intention to try to act otherwise. It's not like they are saying, "Oh my God, I am trying so hard not to act like this, and I just can't stop myself." Acting bad results from not having a problem with the idea of acting bad.

[wasup]

I have the laid back form of it. I'd just like to point out here that there is not a "non-laid out form" of ADD. That form to which you are referring is known as "ADHD." I have ADHD. Moving on. I do believe in ADD. I have it, and I know first hand that it makes paying attention extremely difficult and sometimes close to impossible. People started really noticing I had it in the first grade. I remember when I was so spaced out that I didn't realize that a spelling test was being given. I sat there through the test and didn't write anything down. Studying notes was often like a Zen meditation exercise, and I would often get to the point where it was impossible to keep going for a while. The more interesting the notes, the more stimulation my brain had and the easier it was to study them. But I would sometimes read that same boring sentence twenty times to even know what it said. I would space out in class to the point of losing track of the fact that I was supposed to be trying not to space out. I would never know what the question was if a teacher asked a question and then called my name. I did things like keep my hand up after the teacher asked for a show of hands. My hand would stay raised until somebody pointed out that my hand was still raised. I once walked into a grocery store with my load of dry cleaning clothes and made it all the way to the produce section. ADD is very real. My ADHD in regards to not being able to pay attention is perhaps not as strong as yours, but it is there as well. For example, I might have to read a passage many, many times to understand what it means. This is a problem for me and history. The material is so uninteresting and boring for me that I will often have to read the subject matter over and over again to understand it. However, I do not buy the idea that the hyperactivity that often comes with it is not something that can be controlled. Having hyper tendencies is one thing, but acting on them is another. I also think that a lot of the kids that have been diagnosed use it as an excuse to be bad. When you get onto them, they say, "I didn't take my medication today. That's why I am acting like this," and they smile while they are saying it and go right back to it immediately. I don't buy that when their words and tones show that they have no intention to try to act otherwise. It's not like they are saying, "Oh my God, I am trying so hard not to act like this, and I just can't stop myself." Acting bad results from not having a problem with the idea of acting bad. Agreed... to an extent. I notice how you go ahead and say how ADD is certainly real, because you have experienced the sensations of seemingly uncontrollable lack of ability to pay attention. But because you have not experienced what it is like to not be able to control hyperactivity you assume that is not real. I could just as easily say "oh, well if you really focus hard the entire time during class you will be able to pay attention. If you think about your actions more often you will not do things like bringing laundry into grocery stores." Would you say your symptoms were uncontrollable? Well, it can be for hyperactivity as well. Is it entirely uncontrollable? Well, no. Clearly, if I started throwing spitballs and ripping up paper, this is controllable. Just like to point out here, as a sensible older person, it is. I had pretty uncontrollable behavioral problems when I was a lot younger, and, well, try to make an argument that a baby can concentrate on never crying. It's about the same. I digress... some things are really just, not controllable; rather, they are controllable to the same extent that your problem is (constant attention must be put forth to control it). I do not sit still over long periods of times. I will do things with my hands, adjust myself in my seat a lot, and often jitter in some sort of way or another. This is a small example. Other things include being often distracted when speaking. Just the other day I was talking and I didn't even notice I was doing this but someone pointed out how I was like looking left and right and everywhere as I spoke. Certainly... it is controllable to an extent. I was a trouble maker back in middle school. I didn't blame this on ADHD. When I entered high school I completely stopped "acting out" like that. So I agree that it is controllable, but my situation may or may not be as bad as others. I think I have grown out of it. I have not taken medication for years and years. So: for teenagers and such (not for children and toddlers), ADHD is hardly an excuse for excessive hyperactivity. However it certainly excuses many uncontrollable things... just as your lack of ability to pay attention, Universal Mind, is excused by your ADD. The difference between diagnosing hyper people with ADHD versus people who actually have it is, correct me if I'm wrong, there is actually a neurological problem involved in the actual presence of ADHD. The American Neurological Association has recognized ADD/ADHD as a real disorder. I know no one here is saying it doesn't exist, but it is wrong to say everyone has 'ADD/ADHD' to some extent. Many have problems paying attention or are hyper, but the above shows the distinction between those with the actual disorder and those without it.

[skysaw]

Here's another perspective on ADD. I am 43 years old, and was diagnosed with ADD only about 4 years ago. When I was a kid, no one had ever heard of ADD, and until recently, no one much thought about adults having it at all. I look back on my childhood in a different light now. I wasn't wildly out of control, nor disobediant at all, but I did have a lot of trouble with motivation and follow-through. I rarely did my homework in highschool, and mostly at the last second when I did. I made up for it by performing very well on tests, and was a fairly solid B+ student, at least in the classes I didn't hate. Now I take medication (Concerta), and it's really turned me around in a positive way. I've always managed to struggle along and get things done, but with the meds, I finally feel like I can understand how most people operate. For the first time in my life, I actually LIKE doing work. I'm waking up early and getting things done. I'm much happier. I'm just telling you this to let you know that medication DOES have its place for treatment of ADD. I know it's completely overprescribed for children, but I blame that on lazy doctors for the most part. Conclusion: ALL kids need SOME discipline. SOME kids also need medication.

[Burns]

Good discussion. Moved to Extended Discussion. And just to throw in my 2 cents, I also think ADD and ADHD are misdiagnosed and overdiagnosed. I think it is an excuse for parents - "it's not my fault my kid is a hyperactive, undisciplined holy terror, it's the ADD's fault. Let's dope him up on meds." My little brother was "diagnosed" with ADD and medicated for it. Turns out he wasn't ADD and didn't need meds. Same with my hubby when he was little. It was only a matter of the parents not taking responsibility for making the kid mind. I'm not saying attention disorders don't exist, but I think a lot of doctors and parents overuse it as a cop-out, quick-fix instead of putting in the effort of firm parenting techniques. All kids are hyper to some extent. Obviously. But that doesn't mean they need medication. They need an outlet for their energy and need to have structured house and social rules that the parents consistently uphold and stick to.

[pj]

Now I take medication (Concerta), and it's really turned me around in a positive way. I've always managed to struggle along and get things done, but with the meds, I finally feel like I can understand how most people operate. For the first time in my life, I actually LIKE doing work. I'm waking up early and getting things done. I'm much happier. I agree that meds can have a place. I did the Ritalin thing for a couple years over a decade ago and learned a lot about myself during the process. In the end I chose to go back to life without, while remembering the lessons learned while using the methyl amphetamines. I think it is great for adults like us to make our own decisions (along with our doctors) about using these powerful medications. It is another thing entirely to use them on children all through their formative years just to make them easier for "normal" people to deal with. After my experience with Ritalin, I would NEVER permit my children to be put on the stuff. But if a consenting adult makes that choice, more power to him.

[Universal Mind]

I'd just like to point out here that there is not a "non-laid out form" of ADD. That form to which you are referring is known as "ADHD." I have ADHD. Moving on. ADHD stands for "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder". Until recently, there were ADHD and ADD. The latter stood for the same thing except without the "Hyperactivity". Now ADHD is used to encompass both of them, which I think is ridiculous. I was diagnosed with ADD. Agreed... to an extent. I notice how you go ahead and say how ADD is certainly real, because you have experienced the sensations of seemingly uncontrollable lack of ability to pay attention. But because you have not experienced what it is like to not be able to control hyperactivity you assume that is not real. I could just as easily say "oh, well if you really focus hard the entire time during class you will be able to pay attention. If you think about your actions more often you will not do things like bringing laundry into grocery stores." Would you say your symptoms were uncontrollable? Well, it can be for hyperactivity as well. The strong tendency is definitely there, so the phenomenon is real. I also think that even with trying the hyperactive kids will be more hyper than average kids in all cases. But I do know from being a teacher that it is very often used as an excuse and that the phenomenon can be controlled with discipline much more that many realize. I have seen with my own eyes on zillions of occasions kids' not caring at all about the fact that they are being obnoxiously hyper in terms that they know very well. Discipline is a significant factor that can work on them. I have used it. Is it entirely uncontrollable? Well, no. Clearly, if I started throwing spitballs and ripping up paper, this is controllable. Just like to point out here, as a sensible older person, it is. That is precisely what I am saying. The American Neurological Association has recognized ADD/ADHD as a real disorder. They should have. Both forms are real. I am just saying the hyperactive form is too often used as an excuse for behavior that discipline can control in most cases and that it is way overly diagnosed. But there is definitely something extreme happening neurologically in cases where it exists.