Thread: Why are drugs illegal?

My boss had a party last night and the cops came. When my brother was leaving for home my mom told him, "You're not driving home, you've had Redbull". I just thought that was funny to share and show how grown ups are sometimes ignorant of new things coming into this world.

Why do you think she said that? over-stimulated? d:

Originally Posted by Howie

That was not meant as an insult Universal. Anyone following this thread new what point you were trying to make I would think.

I was talking about your term "stupid golf analogy".

Originally Posted by Howie

If you had anywhere close to an equal number of salvia users as golfers you do not think there would be as many deaths, more deaths or none?

First of all, that will never make it even a tenth, probably not even a hundredth of the way to happening. Also, salvia users are not going to be doing salvia as often as individuals play golf. So golf's having many times more people doing it and individuals doing it much more often is going to give it a factor that will always be way over that of salvia. But IF the use frequencies were equal, I think salvia accidents would be less common if the packages had warning labels and info packets attached to them. As long as people know what salvia does, they don't want to do much on it, except for people with the mentality of that kid in the video who had a golf ball deliberately hit at him. IF the use frequencies were the same and the lack of knowledge of salvia effects were the same as it is now, which is an impossible situation, only then would salvia possibly result in more accidents.

Originally Posted by Howie

I'm going by the math here. This makes your comparison look very shallow.
The rollingeyes, That was minus the spiritual users. If Peyote or Salvia ever started to become the use of recreational people the individuals who do use it for spiritual practices would have never been noticed nor the drug. So I do not think there has been an influx in growth of spiritual seekers rather than an increase of experience seekers.

Freedom is a virtue one way or the other. It is not something you can just throw out like an old shirt. You have to have a damn compelling argument for making a decision about what others may not do for fun, and you have not given one.

Originally Posted by Howie

Maybe a triple Bogey or a snowman - 8

(drum set) Ba doom pish!

Originally Posted by Howie

Is this not the same type of logic you are using?
You have impractically pulled one thing out of the air, golf (no pun intended) and just compared a number that has no good reason to be compared, shown by my comparison above.
I realize that golf is just one of the analogy elements I could use.
Verbal abuse has not killed anyone, physical abuse has. Don't these seem like outrageous comparisons? they are, much like yous is.

Now try explaining yourself on that. Explain why recreational driving, for example, should be legal while salvia divinorum should not. Would you like to compare the statistics on that one? You are not going to make me cry by insulting me. It is just that when you do that and don't explain yourself, you come across as not having anything to back up what you are saying. Saying a person used a stupid argument while not explaining how how he used a stupid argument qualifies as use of the ad hominem fallacy. It is weak because it does nothing to counter the argument. Nothing.

Originally Posted by Howie

How many of the incidents would be accounted for in all honestly Universal?

The drugs and other recreational activities that actually do kill people have been getting accounted for. So far with salvia, we have zero, as far as I have seen. Are you arguing that the recreational activities I listed should be legal even though they have hurt lots and lots of people who engage in them as well as innocent bystanders because they are "leisure activities" but salvia should be illegal because what if somebody got hurt from it and it didn't get reported and what if somebody does some time in the future? Please explain how that is logical. I bet you can't do it.

Originally Posted by Howie

We have been here. I am not afraid to go there again.
Universal mind. I know we do not see eye to eye. (no shit right? ha ha) But when you asked me to fill in your sentence, did you look to see if I had filled that in and went on or did you read the page upon page of discussion about human error and neglect, accountability, own will etc. etc., Even the condensed versions?
Because I did not fill out your sentence then if you did that is fine, but save me the frustration please.

Yes, and I even responded to it bit by bit. Look and see for yourself. Did you see where I kept saying that what matters is the end result? You can talk about error and neglect all day, but until you explain how it results in greater danger than the "leisure activities" that get people hurt yet you think should be legal, you have not cleared up the issue. You might as well be saying that a sleeping person cannot make sound decisions. Such a point does not explain how that translates into a level of danger that calls for the illegality of it. Explain the connection between salvia induced mental impairment and a level of danger that is so extreme that it should be illegal while all of the other "leisure activities" I mentioned should not. Remember that limiting freedom is a very big deal. You are going to have to come up with one Hell of an argument to justify such a thing. So far, you have not even given an argument. You have only given an element of one.

Originally Posted by Howie

If the answer does not model to your liking it will always be dodged. I could dodge a flying golf ball. It has no ability. Yes this is true. a golf ball does not have it's own will.
Tell me this
Golf balls have "zero liability to use good judgement"
Salvia users "almost always"
~If we had as many slavia divinorum users today as we do golfers there, would be more accidents on Salvia than of golfers.

That is totally nonresponsive. You keep harping on judgment impairment caused by salvia and not going beyond that to explain how it makes the difference. Again, it is the end result that is relevant. So to respond to your partial argument, I said that a golf ball does not even have as much as impaired judgement, that it does not even have the ability to use judgment at all. What is your counterargument to that point? You have been focussing on judgment without explaining the relevance. So explain why lack of judgment is not important when we are talking about a flying golf ball.

I disagree with your last statement, and it is also a very unrealistic IF. Your whole stance is based on unrealistic IFs. Even if there were more deaths and injuries resulting from golf than salvia, would there really be such a difference that it calls for the banning of what has been a leisure freedom? Try making your same point except involving recreational driving. Try doing it with a straight face.

Originally Posted by Howie

If I found an equal amount of deaths from salvia use, would that change your argument?
If you found ten more deaths via golf, it would not change mine.
It is about human error, golf, skydiving, hunting, over human error involved with the ingestion of drugs on ones own will.

Those other activities are done by one's own will too. What is your point? THE END RESULT IS MORE EXTREME WITH THOSE OTHER ACTIVITIES. THAT IS WHAT IS RELEVANT. RESPOND TO THAT POINT NEXT TIME. UNDERSTAND?

IF there were more accidents resulting from salvia than golf, it would not change my mind. It would change my analogy, but it would not magically cross some threshold and have me saying, "Woes, salvia just surpassed golf. Now I think it should be illegal." Freedom means a whole lot more to me than that.

Originally Posted by Howie

Take this analogy light hearted as it is meant.
If a tree falls in the woods, is it just an act of god?
If a tree falls in the woods because we ingested it with round up, is it still an act of god?
~ A joke but a point none the less.

Is shooting a deer in the woods an act of God? What about snow skiing, leisure driving, skateboarding, hang gliding, and roller blading? Are those acts of God?

Wow, that is certainly an example of a post that I am too lazy to read.

Whatever you said---I agree with it wholeheartedly.

Seriously though, my body, none of you f&*kers have a right to tell me what I can and cannot do with my own body. That was the premise for the abortion ruling, REMEMBER? Hypocrites.

Well, to get totally off topic, when you're dealing with abortion, you're dealing with two bodies, the mothers and the infants. But drugs are different. Let people make their own decisions.

Eh, I'm not saying they're the same, just that they're related in the sense of what one does with one's own body.

Originally Posted by 27

Well, to get totally off topic, when you're dealing with abortion, you're dealing with two bodies, the mothers and the infants. But drugs are different. Let people make their own decisions.

And if you are pregnant and on drugs?

What about golf ON drugs.

That is my point. Adding the element of a drug to a situation elevates the severity of the issue. Skydiving, driving, golf, etc. etc.
Legalizing drugs would elevate the severity of the usage.

Originally Posted by Universal

I disagree with your last statement, and it is also a very unrealistic IF. Your whole stance is based on unrealistic IFs. Even if there were more deaths and injuries resulting from golf than salvia, would there really be such a difference that it calls for the banning of what has been a leisure freedom? Try making your same point except involving recreational driving. Try doing it with a straight face

It is unrealistic. It is unrealistic to compare those two then as well, as the numbers will show that. You can't scream something is safe with only handfuls of documented cases and compare that to billions of experiences and can still only account for a handful of injuries.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Is shooting a deer in the woods an act of God? What about snow skiing, leisure driving, skateboarding, hang gliding, and roller blading? Are those acts of God?

What was in part meant as a joke, points out that you may still not realize where it DOES cross the threshold imo.
Notice the addition of "round up"

We have accidents, we even use poor judgement. You may consider that rock climbing is done in poor judgement. But it is done so on the brain you have been given, poor or not. That we have to deal with every single day. We have to deal with this in the court, who is to blame and to what degree.

Drugs do not have to be a part of that equation.
I would stand up to the end myself for any civil right. Ingesting a chemical that in all likelihood harms ones self, can make any situation substantially more dangerous and put others at harm, risk the allowance of drug activity to lead to more hardcore drugs have all been a quantify reason for myself

** ALSO, you have directed me to HAVE To fill in your gosh damn sentence when it did not fit. As I meant to mention before.
When I asked you, Did I say it should be illegal?
You jumped all over my ass because it seemed apparent that I thought alcohol should be legal and slavia should be a FELONY!
I think neither and I have stated so.

So regardless of how long we continue, you know my argument and I know yours.
The only thing that has been side winded is what legal actions would be taken if certain drugs were illegal.

Most all of my friends are gun advocates. Many of them are drug advocates as well.
We know the arguments, but I have often used the comparison.

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.
If you agree with that statement, then would that not hold true for drugs.
As drugs are outlawed, only drug useres have drugs. -- *"only" is never "all"*

With Drugs and alcohol do the taxes and all the fines out number the cost of executing the entire scheme?

Originally Posted by Howie

And if you are pregnant and on drugs?

What about golf ON drugs.

That is my point. Adding the element of a drug to a situation elevates the severity of the issue. Skydiving, driving, golf, etc. etc.
Legalizing drugs would elevate the severity of the usage.

Adding the element of golf to anything makes it more dangerous. Adding the element of skateboarding to anything makes it more dangerous. Adding the element of rock climbing to anything makes it more dangerous. What is your point?

The most basic knowledge of what salvia does has people not wanting to add it to anything but just sitting or lying there. How many times do I need to make that point before you finally respond to it?

Originally Posted by Howie

It is unrealistic. It is unrealistic to compare those two then as well, as the numbers will show that. You can't scream something is safe with only handfuls of documented cases and compare that to billions of experiences and can still only account for a handful of injuries.

It is not realistic to evaluate salvia based on a concept of as many people doing it as golf. However, it is realistic to talk about what a lack of social danger it poses when so few people will be doing it, when the users will be doing it so rarely, and when people do nothing on it but just sit or lie there. In reality, golf is causing more harm to society than salvia. That is extremely relevant, and there is no way around it.

Originally Posted by Howie

What was in part meant as a joke, points out that you may still not realize where it DOES cross the threshold imo.
Notice the addition of "round up"

I have no idea what you are trying to say there. How is hunting (etc.) an act of God?

Originally Posted by Howie

We have accidents, we even use poor judgement. You may consider that rock climbing is done in poor judgement. But it is done so on the brain you have been given, poor or not. That we have to deal with every single day. We have to deal with this in the court, who is to blame and to what degree.

Once again... IT IS THE END RESULT THAT IS RELEVANT. ARE YOU EVER GOING TO RESPOND TO THAT POINT?

Originally Posted by Howie

Drugs do not have to be a part of that equation.
I would stand up to the end myself for any civil right. Ingesting a chemical that in all likelihood harms ones self, can make any situation substantially more dangerous and put others at harm, risk the allowance of drug activity to lead to more hardcore drugs have all been a quantify reason for myself

Drugs do have to be part of the equation in a system that respects freedom. Does golf have to be part of the equation? What about recreational driving? Those add danger, and they add much more danger than salvia ever will. Right??????

The mere assertion that salvia linfluences the way to harder drugs is not justification for the illegality of it. I think all drugs should be legal any way. Freedom should be respected.

Originally Posted by Howie

** ALSO, you have directed me to HAVE To fill in your gosh damn sentence when it did not fit. As I meant to mention before.
When I asked you, Did I say it should be illegal?
You jumped all over my ass because it seemed apparent that I thought alcohol should be legal and slavia should be a FELONY!
I think neither and I have stated so.

The last time you posed the question, "Did I say it should be illegal?" you were talking about salvia, and that is why I thought it was such a funny and peculiar question. As for our alcohol conversation, what does that have to do with where we are in this conversation? What is the issue there?

I kept asking you to fill in those blanks to illustrate your double standard, which is the same double standard that seven state legislatures have had in recent years.

Originally Posted by Howie

So regardless of how long we continue, you know my argument and I know yours.
The only thing that has been side winded is what legal actions would be taken if certain drugs were illegal.

Interesting topic. What do you think should be done with salvia users? What kinds of bad things do you want to put them through because of your unsubstantiated worries about bad things happening? Talk to me.

Originally Posted by Howie

Most all of my friends are gun advocates. Many of them are drug advocates as well.
We know the arguments, but I have often used the comparison.

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.
If you agree with that statement, then would that not hold true for drugs.
As drugs are outlawed, only drug useres have drugs. -- *"only" is never "all"*

It is true. The war on drugs has made tons of people qualify as outlaws when they otherwise would not.

Originally Posted by Howie

With Drugs and alcohol do the taxes and all the fines out number the cost of executing the entire scheme?

Yes.

There are a few major points of mine that I think are most relevant and that you keep ignoring. You need to respond to them if your goal is to get me to understand your side better.

1. People who know the basics of what salvia does do nothing on it but sit there and lie there, unless they are like those kids in the video in which one of them deliberately hit a golf ball into the other one. Because of that, salvia will never be a significant threat to society.

2. Impaired judgment alone should not be a deciding factor regarding how dangerous a drug or other activity is considered. Tragedy which that impairment results in is what is relevant. Salvia has not been causing tragedy in reality. Golf has.

3. A flying golf ball has a complete inability to use judgment at all. That is why they have killed people. Adding the element of a flying golf ball makes situations more dangerous. Danger is what is relevant to this conversation. Impairment is only relevant to the extent that it results in danger. Golf has shown to be more dangerous than salvia in reality.

Originally Posted by Howie
We have accidents, we even use poor judgement. You may consider that rock climbing is done in poor judgement. But it is done so on the brain you have been given, poor or not. That we have to deal with every single day. We have to deal with this in the court, who is to blame and to what degree.

Once again... IT IS THE END RESULT THAT IS RELEVANT. ARE YOU EVER GOING TO RESPOND TO THAT POINT?

Potential dangers or habits are not an issue and salvia should be a legal recreational drug for all who choose. Golf should be illegal as it has proven to be a dangerous accident.

That was a very nonresponsive post, Howie.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

There are a few major points of mine that I think are most relevant and that you keep ignoring. You need to respond to them if your goal is to get me to understand your side better.

1. People who know the basics of what salvia does do nothing on it but sit there and lie there, unless they are like those kids in the video in which one of them deliberately hit a golf ball into the other one. Because of that, salvia will never be a significant threat to society.

2. Impaired judgment alone should not be a deciding factor regarding how dangerous a drug or other activity is considered. Tragedy which that impairment results in is what is relevant. Salvia has not been causing tragedy in reality. Golf has.

3. A flying golf ball has a complete inability to use judgment at all. That is why they have killed people. Adding the element of a flying golf ball makes situations more dangerous. Danger is what is relevant to this conversation. Impairment is only relevant to the extent that it results in danger. Golf has shown to be more dangerous than salvia in reality.

If you are going to be nonresponsive to the rest of my post, at least give direct responses to that much of it. Thank you.

T joe and I had just discussed this recent article in one of Cleveland's popular out and about papers.
Blow your Mind

Originally Posted by Howie

T joe and I had just discussed this recent article in one of Cleveland's popular out and about papers.
Blow your Mind

Another very nonresponsive post. Your entire post is dedicated to a very long article that peaks with this statement:

We will never know if the kid was on this at the time he killed our son.

So a kid shot another one while playing around with a shotgun, and he might possibly perhaps what if been on salvia. That situation is somewhat common, without salvia. Such a thing results from not understanding guns, not from salvia.

You are playing dodgeball again. Did you sign up for round two of this debate because you love playing dodgeball? It looks like it.

Since you are balled up on the floor with your hands behind your head with the hope that some article about people who are playing the If game will babble enough for you, here are some articles about deaths in which the cause of each death is KNOWN.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I want to make sure that everybody understands the horrors of golf and the need to ban this terrible sport that has no beneficial use in society. Some guy was killed by a golf ball. The golf ball hitter thought he was minding his own business, but his dangerous decision to play golf turned out to not be just all about him. It's time to declare WAR on golf!

http://golf.about.com/b/2005/02/27/m...-golf-ball.htm

Okay, get your legislators ready. Off to prison the golfers go. This demands an immediate pissing on freedom!

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

This is the second Google listing under "golf ball death". A 16 year old girl named Vanessa Anderson was killed by a golf ball. She died a very painful death. Should states start passing "Vanessa's Law" to ban golf?

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...696906222.html

This kid was killed by a golf ball right after somebody had just teed off, and the victim was only 10 years old. His name was Richard Wayne Perry of Fairhope, Alabama. Man, that is very close to my home. We need to protect our children with tough legislation. Damn golfers belong in PRISON!!!!

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...52C1A96F948260

Here is a video of some of the dangerous activity our kids today are engaging in. It is time to add at least one more felony to the law.

http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=6&gl=us

Since you dodged this the last two times, here it is again. I am not having this conversation with you to play dodgeball. If you don't want to talk, then this is pointless. A debate is not about hiding in the corner and refusing to talk. If you want me to understand what the Hell you are trying to say, you will give direct responses to this.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

There are a few major points of mine that I think are most relevant and that you keep ignoring. You need to respond to them if your goal is to get me to understand your side better.

1. People who know the basics of what salvia does do nothing on it but sit there and lie there, unless they are like those kids in the video in which one of them deliberately hit a golf ball into the other one. Because of that, salvia will never be a significant threat to society.

2. Impaired judgment alone should not be a deciding factor regarding how dangerous a drug or other activity is considered. Tragedy which that impairment results in is what is relevant. Salvia has not been causing tragedy in reality. Golf has.

3. A flying golf ball has a complete inability to use judgment at all. That is why they have killed people. Adding the element of a flying golf ball makes situations more dangerous. Danger is what is relevant to this conversation. Impairment is only relevant to the extent that it results in danger. Golf has shown to be more dangerous than salvia in reality.

Talk to me.

I did not even post that in defense of my own position, actually it would defend yours more likely. Not the first time I have tried to bring light to your side of the argument on my expense.
You can't see the forest for the trees. You are too wrapped up in your own thoughts. Your defense light is red hot.
I have no intention in discussing this any more with you.
I am comfortable in my argument and position, So time wasted otherwise would only be to try and prove something to you or other members. Members have plenty of information for that and you have plenty of information for your self.

You have failed to recognize what I feel is important in this conversation many times over as you were fixated on your own small corner of the topic.
Albeit you insist it all revolves around me dodging your diversions attributed to what you believe pertinent, meanwhile leaving leaving many many different possibilities in it's wake. Oh'well, I'm over it.
So call it dodge ball, call it what you will, call it a happy, respectful, intelligent and responsible world. But at least free from all those hate mongers that wish harm on the hippie drug users and the paranoia it must bring.
I preemptive strike may not only be war

Checkmate.

You can't claim victory just because you were more persistent!

Originally Posted by 27

You can't claim victory just because you were more persistent!

I wouldn't.

Would you claim that you can respond to the points I keep asking to have responded to?

Dude, don't take things so seriously.

Originally Posted by 27

Dude, don't take things so seriously.

Seriously? No, I'm just debating back. Is that a problem? Can you respond to those points I keep talking about? Thanks.

I'm not debating man, I think I'm on your side.

Originally Posted by 27

I'm not debating man, I think I'm on your side.

Then what was your point about mere persistence?

I was kidding around and you got all serious... Sorry to ruin the thread.

Creepy clown.

Originally Posted by 27

I was kidding around and you got all serious... Sorry to ruin the thread.

Creepy clown.

You made a serious point. If you don't want to get involved in the conversation, then don't do it.

http://www.chessvariants.org/d.chess/50moves.html

Originally Posted by UM

There are a few major points of mine that I think are most relevant and that you keep ignoring. You need to respond to them if your goal is to get me to understand your side better.

1. People who know the basics of what salvia does do nothing on it but sit there and lie there, unless they are like those kids in the video in which one of them deliberately hit a golf ball into the other one. Because of that, salvia will never be a significant threat to society.

2. Impaired judgment alone should not be a deciding factor regarding how dangerous a drug or other activity is considered. Tragedy which that impairment results in is what is relevant. Salvia has not been causing tragedy in reality. Golf has.

3. A flying golf ball has a complete inability to use judgment at all. That is why they have killed people. Adding the element of a flying golf ball makes situations more dangerous. Danger is what is relevant to this conversation. Impairment is only relevant to the extent that it results in danger. Golf has shown to be more dangerous than salvia in reality.

My stance on #1
"People who know the basics..." - yes, I would think that's usually the case. Being new to Salvia I took a ridiculously amount of precautions when first trying it. So far it's not as bad as I thought it would be, but I consider myself still 'unexperienced' with it.

"unless they are like those kids in the video..." (forget the damn golf ball for a minute) Let's just say kids that don't know the basics and misuse it (i.e at a party, with alcohol, or as a substitute for marijuana). The undisputed fact is that these kids ARE a threat to themselves and likely those around them. Now, is Salvia the root of the problem? Only in the same extent as a bullet is to a gun in the hands of a person who doesn't respect or understand the dangers of a loaded gun. A bullet by itself is pretty useless - as is an empty gun.

Unfortunately, this country has become so dependent on having the government nanny its' citizens, that parents are depending on laws and legislation to 'protect' their kids - rather than do this thing that most middle-aged and older folk remember as "parenting".

Education about these drugs would be the most potent and effective solution IMO.

My stance on #2
I don't play golf.

My stance on #3
See stance on #2.

Originally Posted by linked article

He'd suffered from depression, but his mother blamed the herb in the local papers and national media dutifully picked up the story and touted Salvia D as the new threat to America's youth. The exposure lead to "Brett's Law," a bill in the Delaware Legislature.

So, you got a depressed kid who killed himself. Parent wouldn't dare blame herself for not helping her son, so why not a substance which he used. Could have just as easily been a bottle of Jack, or a case of Heineken. You'd never see a law passed to ban those.

Originally Posted by linked article

Sean's mother was an employee of the Holmes County Board of Mental Retardation and Developmental Disabilities. She had a lax view of parental responsibility. For instance, she bought a shotgun for her 13-year-old son. When Sean complained about having trouble getting to sleep and told her that Salvia D might help him, she let him purchase the herb and even bought him rolling papers and a pipe so that he could smoke it.

13 year-old + shotgun! Parenting?