Fitna

I understand the Dutch are having trouble with muslims "not intergrating". I listen to Radio Netherlands on occasion and for the first few weeks it was just full of them whining about Muslims.

But you feel the situation warrants dutch filmakers to incite hatred towards dutch muslims?

If they feel so threatened by the Radicals who, whether you like it or not, are nearly majority of, and face of, the Muslim faith.

As I said earlier-- It is their country, if they choose not to let Muslims in, then that is up to them. They don't need to "entice hate"; the radicals do that for you all.

The Radicals? In the Netherlands Radical muslims are not to holland as gang members are to LA....Unless you can prove to me they are that much of a problem to the Dutch?

And where is that bit about the majority of muslims being radicals coming from now? Can you back that statement up?

Geert Wilders is a joke of a Politician. A Definite case of borderline. He's in terrible need of attention yet he has no realistic political plans for Holland. His only "Campaign" is one of fear of the unknown culture and life/worldview of the Islam. There has been some clash of cultures in Holland between western views and islamic, eastern views, but instead of sitting round the table and socially solving these problems he uses this problem as a popularity train to hitch a hide on.

Luckily the fool hyped his movie so much before it even came out that there wasn't much room for any surprise or impact left. I haven't seen his movie yet, which has totally flopped, but I've heard it is very meaningglessly the repeatition of anti-islamic views and supporting videofootage of it as if a few radical muslims represent the Islamic Mentality. Nothing new from the rethorical, black-and white- world view-propaganda we've known for so long of the ever present archetypical fascists amongst us.

It just goes to show how much emotional and how little intellectual the mentality on which fascism & racism are based is.

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Originally Posted by Kushna Mufeed

So, you should hate the faith for something it doesn't teach, not the people who have taken it the wrong way?

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Yes, as I said before, I don't think you should hate the people, but hate the teachings that cause them to do bad things. Should I hate my own family because I think that they believe things that are harmful, or should I love them and hate the things that they believe, which there is hope that there can be a change for the better?

Taking it the "wrong way" is just your opinion on what it means; obviously they interpret it differently and would say you are taking it the "wrong way".

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

The trick CAN be played with other religious books such as the bible and old testament.

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It's not a "trick", it is the nature of those writings. You are just disagreeing with people who take the passages literally; it's just your opinion. People have fought forever about what those books mean. You're no more right in your opinion about whether it's a trick than the people who interpret them literally and "out of context". (I hate that phrase; it implies that you have to be some sort of historian and scholar to read a few simple sentences, which supposedly are the word of god. Obviously god should have been a little more careful in the phrasing. I'm being sarcastic because there's no such thing as god anyway.)

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

As far as i have seen, He gives only the most superficial of interpretations and he only portrays Islam with the Crazies of the Relegion. Its like making a documentary on Christianity and only showing the absoloute fundamentalists who say "Earthquakes happen because of sodomy"

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So? If those kind of Christians are hurting a lot of people, they should have a documentary made about them too. They probably have. There's just fewer fundamental violent Christians at this point in history, but they do their share of damage too.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

I can dig up Christian verses that condome rape but does that make it a true Christian teaching? No absoloutely note.

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Again, your opinion. In my opinion, and that of some Christians, that would make it a true Christian teaching. They are many horrible things in the bible; we've been all thru that here (in this forum.)

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

You wouldn't learn about Jews from Nazies and you wouldn't learn about Christianity from Atheists so why is this true of Islam?

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You can learn a lot about Christianity from atheists, believe me.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

All he did (Geert Wilder) was blame all of Europe's social and economic problems on its Muslim population and said Muslims were secretly planning to take over the world.

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He didn't blame all of Europe's problems on the Muslim's; and it's obvious that they aren't doing anything in secret--they're pretty outspoken about it.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

Millions of people? Where are you getting your statistics from my friend?

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How many do you think it is?

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

I am not a biblical/quranic/talmudic scholar by any means. But i think it's important to understand the context of a verse not just the verse itself. and Often times as in Christianity such verses are not to be taken literally and are not meant in literally at all.

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Again, that context thing. Tell that to the fundamentalists--maybe they know more about their holy book than you do, is that possible? They can be taken any way you want to take them, and a lot of people take them literally and "out of context", obviously.

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Originally Posted by SKA

It just goes to show how much emotional and how little intellectual the mentality on which fascism & racism are based is.

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So you're saying fundamental religious extremists are OK with you, and the people who are against radicals who kill people based on their religion are the real fascists and rascists? I think you got it backwards. (I don't know how race is really involved here anyway.)

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

It's not a "trick", it is the nature of those writings. You are just disagreeing with people who take the passages literally; it's just your opinion. People have fought forever about what those books mean. You're no more right in your opinion about whether it's a trick than the people who interpret them literally and "out of context". (I hate that phrase; it implies that you have to be some sort of historian and scholar to read a few simple sentences, which supposedly are the word of god. Obviously god should have been a little more careful in the phrasing. I'm being sarcastic because there's no such thing as god anyway.)

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Listen, I don't think you know what out of context means. Reading out of context means you take one verse out of a page and read it selectively. Reading in context means you read the whole page where the verse came from and see how the verse is writen IN CONTEXT. You don't need to be a historian to know that reading out of context can distort the whole meaning.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Again, your opinion. In my opinion, and that of some Christians, that would make it a true Christian teaching. They are many horrible things in the bible; we've been all thru that here (in this forum.)

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No it's not my opinion. Its fact i can dig up christian verses that say rape is "ok" and that genocide "OK".

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Originally Posted by moonbeam

He didn't blame all of Europe's problems on the Muslim's; and it's obvious that they aren't doing anything in secret--they're pretty outspoken about it.

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An exageration on my part. but he did Demonize Holland's Muslims at one point in the video, as it cast a sinister look over them. And gave the impression that they some how trying to take over the country (by demographic change). If you saw the video then you will clearly see that it "demonifies" Dutch muslims so to speak and i beleive that is unacceptable to do to a minority. It's not acceptable to do to blacks and not to jews and infact at one point in history it was done to jews. The video goes beyound attacking islam it also spreads hate towards Dutch Muslims and makes them out to be some sort of danger or malady to the country. This is unacceptable and i view this as being hate speech and intentionally taking the quran out of context.


[quote=moonbeam Again, that context thing. Tell that to the fundamentalists--maybe they know more about their holy book than you do, is that possible? They can be taken any way you want to take them, and a lot of people take them literally and "out of context", obviously.[/QUOTE]


Again my point remains MoonBeam. If you take a verse out of context and say that is the true meaning of it then that is a fallacy. You have to read what came before the verse and what came after the verse to understand what it really means. Did you read the post i made from a muslim website that explained how Wilder took the Qu'ran out of context? I think you should read it and understand when you take something of context it does change the meaning. And before the accusations start flying NO im not muslim. On the contrary im Catholic. However i am for race/relegious tolerance and i can't stand people who make videos like these that sterotype a whole relegion and intentionally take things out of context to exagerate the meaning of a verse and what is the worst, its a video that casts hate on muslims and on Dutch Muslims especially.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Geert Wilders has raised many points in his movie Fitna. He has tried to give a face to Islam that he and people like him (eg Osama Bin Laden) like to project. Misquoting Quran, and picking verses of his choice from the holy book ignoring verses just next to them. Giving half information is same as creating misinformation. However, for people who are wise, the same fitna created by Geert Wilders will lead to understanding the truth and salvation, once they read Quran and understand the real context.
While this response does not intend to explain reactive behaviours of some muslims (including clerics), it will explain the misquoted text from the source - Quran.

Movie starts with following verse quoted from holy Quran:

First Quran verse presented in the movie:
Quran: 008.060
"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly. "

But Geert refuses to read and quote just the next verse without understanding context, showing his ill intentions. Courage is being brought into hearts of fearful muslims against whom war has been declared and peace has been taken away:

Quran: 008.061
But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

Islam encourages peace, will somebody want a better proof than this. Even against those who started to go against peace, you also get ready to respond to maintain peace, fighting those who distroy peace, but if they go back to peace, then there is no reason for war.


A little earlier in the same chapter the context becomes even more clear:
Quran: 008.039
And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

Permission is being given to fight those who cause tumult or oppression without letting justice and forcing people not to choose what religion is right for them.

Quran: 008.058
If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous.

It is all about terms and conditions. "IF". Permission is being given to fight with given circumstances of treachery from hostile group.

Same chapter again, to make context even more clear:
Quran: 008.056
They are those with whom thou didst make a covenant, but they break their covenant every time, and they have not the fear (of Allah).

"Those" are the people who break agreements and treaties.



Doesn't make the same chapter clarify people like those who made "Fita" with all the wrong intentions misquoting Quran,
Quran: 008.049
"Lo! the hypocrites say, and those in whose hearts is a disease: "These people,- their religion has misled them." But if any trust in Allah, behold! Allah is Exalted in might, Wise."


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The second verse from Quran presented is:
Quran: 004.056
Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

These are the warnings for disbelievers. And there is sign of God in it for the wise. Can an illiterate man (Mohammad, p.b.u.h) who didn't know how to read and write say such a thing which only MD's of today's medical sciences are able to explain.
Today science has discovered that the only place where pain of fire is felt is not the meat, but it is skin. God is giving His sign for the wise people in it to know the Quran is from God only. Punishment through roasting the skin, again and again, only the skin. Still there are many like Geert who did not think about it. For sure there are many signs for believers in Quran.
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The third verse quoted is:
Quran: 047.004
Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

Again same chapter explains the context:
Quran: 047.020
Those who believe say, "Why is not a sura sent down (for us)?" But when a sura of basic or categorical meaning is revealed, and fighting is mentioned therein, thou wilt see those in whose hearts is a disease looking at thee with a look of one in swoon at the approach of death. But more fitting for them-

Chapters 25-78 were revealed during the early stage of Madani life after migration, at the time when muslims were weak, and feared to participate in wars staged on them by disbelievers.

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Fourth time a verse is mentioned:
Quran: 004.089
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

Geert again ignores the context from the same chapter, a few verses away:
Quran: 004.075
And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

Islam is all about self defence, getting people (men, women, children) their right away from oppression, ill treatment, who cry and ask God for help.

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And the final Verse quoted in the movie:
Quran: 008.039
And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

Geert picks the right verse that explains the whole context, but verily,

Quran: 047.024
Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them?

Quran: 2:171
The example of such disbelievers is that of parrots who repeat what they hear of sounds and calls, without understanding. deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand.

Again it says that if they cease to fight, don't fight. And permission is given to fight until all oppression is nulified, and people have the freedom to choose the right religion and faith as they want.

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Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives.

There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians’ life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram – or forbidden - and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not ”martyrs.”

The Qur’an, Islam’s revealed text, states: "Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind."

(Qur’an, 5:32)

Prophet Muhammad said there is no excuse for committing unjust acts: "Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong to them. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong (even) if they do evil." (Al-Tirmidhi)


The Holy Prophet Muhammad(s) puts it in these words: "All creatures are like a family of God: and he loves the most those who are the most beneficent to His family. (Narrated by Anas. Mishkat al-Masabih,3:1392.)

Even duty of prophet was to clearly defined as to convey the messege of God to human beings:
So if they dispute with you (Muhammad SAW) say: "I have submitted myself to Allah (in Islam), and (so have) those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and to those who are illiterates (Arab pagans): "Do you (also) submit yourselves (to Allah in Islam)?" If they do, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message; and Allah is All-Seer of (His ) slaves.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #20)

Then, if they turn away, your duty (O Muhammad SAW) is only to convey (the Message) in a clear way.
( سورة النحل , An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #82)



Quran
2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.

Don't give bad rating to a Mercedes only because the driver didn’t know how to drive such a good car and had an accident. Don't judge islam by the actions of bad Muslims who take out their frustration with west with wrong interpretation of Islamic teaching. Know islam by yourself. Give yourself a chance to know truth with open mind


Qarizma71, we don't need to make a counter movie, read my answer, all you need is a bit of knowledge on this topic

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

No it's not my opinion. Its fact i can dig up christian verses that say rape is "ok" and that genocide "OK".

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I believe you misinterpreted her here. She said taking those words to not be christian teachings is your opinion, not if they are there or not. She means how things are interpreted is someone's opinion, so, you cant say if those words are really christian to everyone or not.

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Originally Posted by tkdyo

I believe you misinterpreted her here. She said taking those words to not be christian teachings is your opinion, not if they are there or not. She means how things are interpreted is someone's opinion, so, you cant say if those words are really christian to everyone or not.

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I can honestly say in Christianity or atleast in the bulk of Christianity those are not what is taught. Likewise with Islam, I can honestly say most people don't adhere to verses taken out of context.

However that argument can be used for anything. I can tell you for example. People take the Harry Potter books as gospel and you can tell me No they don't and i will just tell you Well you can't say the harry potter books are not holy to everyone...You never know 100%

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

Listen, I don't think you know what out of context means. Reading out of context means you take one verse out of a page and read it selectively. Reading in context means you read the whole page where the verse came from and see how the verse is writen IN CONTEXT. You don't need to be a historian to know that reading out of context can distort the whole meaning.

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Yes, what tkdyo said. Whether or not the whoever wrote those holy books meant for them to be used one way or another way is irrelevant; I'm talking about what is actually being done.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

No it's not my opinion. Its fact i can dig up christian verses that say rape is "ok" and that genocide "OK".

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Yea, and I can dig up verses saying that slavery is OK, and kill your family if they don't believe and your children if they talk back, and stone your neighbors if they grow two crops in one field, etc. I agree that the bible has a lot of horrible things. It's your opinion on whether or not they are "taken out of context". Some people think they should be interpreted literally. Obviously people have done a lot of bad things because they believe in the bible. Luckily, most people around here don't do what it says, right? There are people who would like to, however.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

It's not acceptable to do to blacks and not to jews and infact at one point in history it was done to jews.

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Blacks and jews weren't hurting anyone; they were the ones being oppressed. It's not analagous at all.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

The video goes beyound attacking islam it also spreads hate towards Dutch Muslims and makes them out to be some sort of danger or malady to the country.

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I'm not Dutch, but I wouldn't appreciate my freedom of speech being restricted because of Islam, which it has been, and I'd get a little worried about them killing people who say things that they don't like, which they have done. They want to be the oppressors; it's completely obvious; they just don't have the means to do it effectively.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

This is unacceptable and i view this as being hate speech and intentionally taking the quran out of context.

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Can we get past you thinking that you know how to be a better Muslim than them?

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

Again my point remains MoonBeam. If you take a verse out of context and say that is the true meaning of it then that is a fallacy. You have to read what came before the verse and what came after the verse to understand what it really means. Did you read the post i made from a muslim website that explained how Wilder took the Qu'ran out of context?

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Did you see how Muslims were interpreting the Koran to mean that they should kill people? Tell them it's a fallacy, not me--they're the ones using it as justification to do the bad things.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

I think you should read it and understand when you take something of context it does change the meaning.

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It doesn't matter one bit how I interpret it; I think the whole thing is a bunch of lies, just like the bible. That's irrelevant. Out of context, in context, who cares; it doesn't matter much when it's all a bunch of crap anyway.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

And before the accusations start flying NO im not muslim. On the contrary im Catholic. However i am for race/relegious tolerance and i can't stand people who make videos like these that sterotype a whole relegion and intentionally take things out of context to exagerate the meaning of a verse and what is the worst, its a video that casts hate on muslims and on Dutch Muslims especially.

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I don't care what religion you are; I figured you had some sort of irrational belief because of all the contortions around "context"--I assume you've had to do the same thing to justify the crazy stuff in your own holy book.

I guess you can stand people killing other people because their religion tells them to?

P.S. Gastone, I think the faith is the problem. At best people would give up all irrational beliefs, but the best we can probably hope for is for Islam to become like your own religion--Catholics used to be pretty bad too, til they all pretty much started ignoring what they are supposed to do to be a good one. Once Muslims treat the Koran like most Christians treat the bible, it will be much better; til then, some places really have a problem. If you can't see that fundamental Islam is causing people trouble, you just aren't paying attention.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Yes, what tkdyo said. Whether or not the whoever wrote those holy books meant for them to be used one way or another way is irrelevant; I'm talking about what is actually being done.

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My point was the very nature of the passage changes if you only show selective parts of it for example. In the video it showed this passage:"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly. "

Put it neglected to include this passage: "
Quran: 008.061
But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)."

By not including the last passage i provided it skewed the whole verse. That's the point i was making.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

It's your opinion on whether or not they are "taken out of context". Some people think they should be interpreted literally. Obviously people have done a lot of bad things because they believe in the bible. Luckily, most people around here don't do what it says, right? There are people who would like to, however.

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Yes some people say they should be taken litterally but you should note that those people read the whole verse and not just 5 lines of it like was presented in the video.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Blacks and jews weren't hurting anyone; they were the ones being oppressed. It's not analagous at all.

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Actually it is, the blacks were being portrayed as being all thugs and the jews were being completely demonized aswell. The vast majority of blacks for example were not thugs, that was just a sterotype that came to be.

The vast majority of Muslims are not trainbombers or Militants. So you think Muslims in Europe who are mostly just people who get on with their lives like everyone else should all be demonized and vilifed by the actions of some terrorists ? You beleive in collective punishement? The video was demonizing and vilifing ordinary Muslims. If you ask me thats bigotry in the same way blacks and indians were all collectively vilified as criminals and alchoholics and barbarians and etc...

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

I'm not Dutch, but I wouldn't appreciate my freedom of speech being restricted because of Islam, which it has been, and I'd get a little worried about them killing people who say things that they don't like, which they have done. They want to be the oppressors; it's completely obvious; they just don't have the means to do it effectively.

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I'm all for freedom of speech and everything like that. If Geer Wilder's video did not demonize and vilify all muslims then i would be all for his video being in video stores and what not no matter how inaccurate and exagatory it is. But the point remains that the video demonified and vilified all muslims point blank especially Dutch Muslims. I consider that hatmongering and bigotry.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Can we get past you thinking that you know how to be a better Muslim than them?

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I'm not telling anyone how to be a better Muslim. All i have been saying is intentonally only providing parts of verses and leaving out other parts of a verse to entionally give a skewed and false picture of Islam is ridiculous and comes close to propaganda. I know im repeating myself but you seem to need me to make that point over for you to understand it.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Did you see how Muslims were interpreting the Koran to mean that they should kill people? Tell them it's a fallacy, not me--they're the ones using it as justification to do the bad things.

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That is not what i said at all. Shall i repat myself again? I said that misrepresenting verses by taking them out of context and presenting them as teachings of Islam is a fallacy. Again refer to the begining of my post to see what i mean by taking a verse out of context please.

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It doesn't matter one bit how I interpret it; I think the whole thing is a bunch of lies, just like the bible. That's irrelevant. Out of context, in context, who cares; it doesn't matter much when it's all a bunch of crap anyway.

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Listen, Im saying by taking something out of context you end up giving a false impression of the passage by not providing the whole passage in context. It doesn't matter to me how you interpret it but for gods sake read it in context instead of presenting bits of suggestive verses that are out of context to give a false impression.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

By not including the last passage i provided it skewed the whole verse. That's the point i was making.

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You continue to ignore the fact that that is how it is interpreted by the fundamentalist Muslims themselves. It doesn't matter how you think it should be read.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

Actually it is, the blacks were being portrayed as being all thugs and the jews were being completely demonized aswell. The vast majority of blacks for example were not thugs, that was just a sterotype that came to be.

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I just think you had it backwards--the fundamentalist Muslims are more like the Nazis than the other way around, difference being they seem to be much less effective, for the time being. They have made us spend a lot of time and money defending against them tho. (Been to the airport in the last few years?)

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

The vast majority of Muslims are not trainbombers or Militants. So you think Muslims in Europe who are mostly just people who get on with their lives like everyone else should all be demonized and vilifed by the actions of some terrorists ? You beleive in collective punishement? The video was demonizing and vilifing ordinary Muslims. If you ask me thats bigotry in the same way blacks and indians were all collectively vilified as criminals and alchoholics and barbarians and etc...

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No, I don't believe in collective punishment. However, I do believe that someone who is part of that faith, or the Christian faith, is partially morally responsible for what other people who use that faith as justification to do bad things. Christians are all partially responsible for what fundamentalist Christians do, by accepting a holy book that has things like "stone homosexuals" in it. I don't think people should be punished for things that they haven't done, I'm saying that everybody who accepts the Bible and the Koran as the word of god is giving aid and comfort to those that use those books as permission to attack other people. That's really the main point, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

I'm all for freedom of speech and everything like that. If Geer Wilder's video did not demonize and vilify all muslims then i would be all for his video being in video stores and what not no matter how inaccurate and exagatory it is. But the point remains that the video demonified and vilified all muslims point blank especially Dutch Muslims. I consider that hatmongering and bigotry.

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You may be for freedom of speech, but the Dutch government has censored things that may have been insulting to Muslims. I never saw that Mohammed cartoon until I saw that video--why not? I wonder.

I really didn't see the video as being against average Muslims, just fundamentalists.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

I'm not telling anyone how to be a better Muslim. All i have been saying is intentonally only providing parts of verses and leaving out other parts of a verse to entionally give a skewed and false picture of Islam is ridiculous and comes close to propaganda. I know im repeating myself but you seem to need me to make that point over for you to understand it.

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I'm repeating myself too--they do it themselves! Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims use the Bible and the Koran as the justification for what they do all the time! Do you deny that is true? The video shows somebody being beheaded, then it quotes a verse from the Koran saying to behead people--are you saying there's no connection between those two things?

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

That is not what i said at all. Shall i repat myself again? I said that misrepresenting verses by taking them out of context and presenting them as teachings of Islam is a fallacy. Again refer to the begining of my post to see what i mean by taking a verse out of context please.

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Haven't you ever seen people quote bible verses out of context to prove a point? It happens constantly, it's the way those books are used, especially by fundamentalists. I can't say that again; if you don't understand that, I give up.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

Listen, Im saying by taking something out of context you end up giving a false impression of the passage by not providing the whole passage in context. It doesn't matter to me how you interpret it but for gods sake read it in context instead of presenting bits of suggestive verses that are out of context to give a false impression.

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Oh no, it's happening again! :? I think I said everything I can about that. Except that maybe you ought to go tell a few fundamentalist Muslims that they aren't interpreting their book right.

Only education, and denial of all irrational beliefs, ignorance, and superstition will help. That's where it all starts.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

You continue to ignore the fact that that is how it is interpreted by the fundamentalist Muslims themselves. It doesn't matter how you think it should be read.

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I highly doubt very many fundamentalist muslims use skewed passages to justify terrorism. At any rate it(the movie) gives a false image of the relegion itself by giving skewed and out of context quotes from the Qu'ran. That is paramount to a lie. I wonder what would happen if bush started quoting the constitution out of context to justify something of a rather. The country would be in uproar about it. On the last page i provided an essay from a different website. At the end of this post i will provide onother such essay, i think it will explain to you what im talking about better then i ever could.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

I just think you had it backwards--the fundamentalist Muslims are more like the Nazis than the other way around, difference being they seem to be much less effective, for the time being. They have made us spend a lot of time and money defending against them tho. (Been to the airport in the last few years?)

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The point i was making in the post that you quoted is that Muslims are (often) being sterotyped as being terrorists in, and the comparison i was making to blacks was that Blacks have been and are sterotyped as criminals/thugs.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

No, I don't believe in collective punishment. However, I do believe that someone who is part of that faith, or the Christian faith, is partially morally responsible for what other people who use that faith as justification to do bad things. Christians are all partially responsible for what fundamentalist Christians do, by accepting a holy book that has things like "stone homosexuals" in it. I don't think people should be punished for things that they haven't done, I'm saying that everybody who accepts the Bible and the Koran as the word of god is giving aid and comfort to those that use those books as permission to attack other people. That's really the main point, in my opinion.

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Does that in anyway make it ok the fact that the film demonizes or fearmongers European Muslims? Things like that only make rifts bigger between European Muslims and other Europeans. It exasterbates race/relegion relations and has no postive effect whatsoever. All it does is teach the impresionable to fear and hate muslims as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

You may be for freedom of speech, but the Dutch government has censored things that may have been insulting to Muslims. I never saw that Mohammed cartoon until I saw that video--why not? I wonder.

I really didn't see the video as being against average Muslims, just fundamentalists.

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Well if the things the Dutch Government censored were not compilations of quotes taken out of context to give a skewed meaning then what they actually mean if you read them in context and if such films didn't villify/demonize muslims as a whole then im all for it and if any such films or productions were censored then i would assume that is a matter for the Dutch courts.

The cartoons were initialy published in a Danish magazine or newspaper and later on published in several other European newspapers/magazines. I take it you don't live in Europe? Furthermore the cartoons themelves were controversial and hateful, What would the Anti Defamation League (ADL) say if Anti Semtiic cartoons were published in New Papers and on shown on television?

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I'm repeating myself too--they do it themselves! Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims use the Bible and the Koran as the justification for what they do all the time! Do you deny that is true? The video shows somebody being beheaded, then it quotes a verse from the Koran saying to behead people--are you saying there's no connection between those two things?

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I must add that the beheadings that occur, occured in countries such as Afghanistan under the Taliban, Iran (Which is a theocracy) and Saud Arabia which is governed under Sharia Law. These countries take the Qu'ran to a very literal level. I must add this is no longer true in Afghanistan since the regime change of 2001.

If the image of the execution seen in the video is from Iran. It is from the period just after the Islamic Revoloution when the country was just on its feet and was "executing left and right". And many of those executions in Iran were not just for adultery but they were for incest. It in no way justifies the executions but i thought it had to be mentioned.

Again i seriously doubt if the fundamentalist are using skewed and taken out of context verses from the Qu'ran like the video does. And if any do then they are a small minority of Muslims and that in no way excuses the innacuracy of the video.

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Haven't you ever seen people quote bible verses out of context to prove a point? It happens constantly, it's the way those books are used, especially by fundamentalists. I can't say that again; if you don't understand that, I give up.

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Let me revive an example from one of my earlier posts for you.

"In the video Fitna they presented this quote from the Qu'ran::"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly. "

however they neglect to include this: "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)."

I seriously doubt that fundamentalist Muslims will smudge out that last part and just ignore it like the film Fitna so conveniently did. It's just my guess but i think that verse is just to lay out the rules of war. Again that is only my 2 cents about it.

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Oh no, it's happening again! :? I think I said everything I can about that. Except that maybe you ought to go tell a few fundamentalist Muslims that they aren't interpreting their book right.

Only education, and denial of all irrational beliefs, ignorance, and superstition will help. That's where it all starts.

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I told you already how taking things out of context is misinformation.



And by the way i apologize for my belated response.


"EDIT" Moonbeam there is onother essay from onother website about the Fitna that i suggest you read, I posted it on the other page of this thread. Alternatively you can read this other one i will post in just a secound aswell.

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only if you are talking about the minority of ignorant Muslims. it would have been ok if he didn't take verses out of context and said that this is what Islam preaches.

the movie is truly 15 minutes of pure "fitna"!!

Fitna is caused by doing or saying things that spread hatred. When there is “fitna” there is schism, upheaval and sometimes anarchy. if we act with violence we are just proving the guy right.

the messenger Muhammad advised a Muslim who asked him... he told him "don't get angry" he said that three times. he also said that getting angry is from Satan who is made from fire, to turn the fire off we need to wash up (wodoo). or at least if someone is angry and he is standing up he should sit down, if he is sitting down he should lie down. anything to keep you from acting upon your anger.


THIS IS MY OPINION:


freedom of speech now has a new meaning...
freedom of speech = defamation through lies. which is a crime in all civilized countries.


my REFUTE of the verses that were used by the guy.


8:39. And fight them on until there is no more PERSECUTION, and religion becomes Allah's in its entirety; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

the WHOLE surah (chapter) is about a story that happened in the past . It’s THE WAR OF BADR. It was between the Muslims and their “non-believer” enemies “Kuraish”. That’s why the verses were talking about the “non-believers” it’s an adjective … referring to those specific non-believers. It’s not a law for all Muslims. Just a story that is over…. You will find that to be true when you check earlier verses including:
8:33. But Allah was not going to send them a chastisement whilst thou wast amongst them; nor was He going to send it whilst they could ask for pardon.

“whilst thou wast amongst them” = Muhammad. He only lived in the 7th century!!
God was not going to punish the non-believers (Kuraish) while Muhammad was there.

THE REASON of that war wasn’t that they are “non-believers” it was because Kuraish tortured weaker Muslims, drove many Muslims out of their houses, confiscated their properties and conspired to kill Muhammad forcing him out of the city when he was only trying to follow Abraham and Ishmael -who are his blood ancestors- by praying to God in the holy place in Mecca. It’s his right to live in the city he was born in, grew up in and it’s his right to follow his own beliefs without being persecuted. He just wanted to return to his own city.

By the way the war was fought OUTSIDE THE CITY. The two armies met outside the city and fought.
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the verse (8:60) the guy just removed everything before and after it:

[8.56] Those with whom you make an agreement, then they BREAK THEIR AGREEMENT EVERY TIME and they do not guard (against punishment).
[8.57] Therefore if you overtake them in fighting, then scatter by (making an example of) them those who are in their rear, that they may be mindful.
[8.58] And if you fear treachery on the part of a people, then throw back to them on terms of equality; surely Allah does not love the treacherous.
And then come the verses Sura 8 verse 60
[8.61] But IF the ENEMY incline towards PEACE, do you (also) Incline Towards PEACE, and trust in Allah: for He is the One that hears and knows (all things).

the verse says to prepare for war in a way that terrifies the enemies.

but the movie separated the words "to strike terror" in a separate line to get your attention away from the fact that is terrifying through preparation not terrorizing the peaceful.

It’s to fight those who break peace agreements. But if they return to peace then Muslims HAVE to return to peace. If someone attacks you wouldn’t you prepare everything in your power to defend yourself?

He mentioned 60 and didn’t say it’s for agreement breakers and didn’t mention 61 which is all about peace.

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4:56
If you believe in God’s signs you don’t need to be scared of God’s punishment. This has nothing to do with Muslims attacking people! If you are a believer there’s nothing to worry about and if you are a non-believer then don’t be upset about something that you don’t believe in which is “hell” in the afterlife.

Believer does not equal Muslim. A Muslim can be a believer or not. A non-muslim can be a believer or not.

It’s God who decides.

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(4:89) again, out of context.

Hypocrites in Islam are those who pretend to be the Muslims allies when they are the allies of the Muslims’ enemies.

4:88. Why should ye be divided into two parties about the HYPOCRITES? Allah hath cost them of their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
4:89. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): So take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
4:90. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore IF THEY WITHDRAW FROM YOU BUT FIGHT YOU NOT, AND (INSTEAD) SEND YOU (GUARANTEES OF) PEACE, THEN ALLAH HATH OPENED NO WAY FOR YOU (TO WAR AGAINST THEM).

Again Muslims are allowed defend themselves against those who fight them. it’s defense. If the attacker wants peace then there’s no need to defend ourselves.

There was nothing such as “NEUTRAL”. People were divided into ALLIES, ENEMIES, people with whom they had AGREEMENTS. That’s the way it was.

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47:4. Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind (the captives) firmly: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

again he mixes peace times and war times. And again “the unbelievers” is an adjective referring to “those people”. The whole purpose of the war is that the believers will be left alone to live and worship in peace. It’s not to convert the non-believers.

There are 2 verses in another surah or “chapter” that sets the peaceful people from the other people in treatment:

60:8. Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who FIGHT YOU NOT for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing KINDLY and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
60:9. Allah only FORBIDS YOU, with regard to those who FIGHT YOU for (your) Faith, and DRIVE YOU OUT OF YOUR HOMES, and support (others) in driving you out, FROM TURNING TO THEM (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.
I guess this is fair enough, kind with peaceful but not friends with attackers.


The word used in verse 60 for the peaceful people instead of “dealing kindly” is the same used for being kind to parents “tabarroohom”.
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I guess the guy who made the movie should be paid by terrorists. He’s their new “brainwasher” of people. (whoever wants to be brainwashed, that is)

please people, judge Islam by its content not its sinful followers. the good and the bad exist in every religion.

if the majority of Muslims were like that it would be WW3. it's difficult to control an army of over a billion, you know?

the misunderstandings are because of ignorance or it's a cultural or political thing not religious

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

I highly doubt very many fundamentalist muslims use skewed passages to justify terrorism.

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I just think you're wrong about that. The reason that they do it is because they are true believers. They Koran is telling them to do it (in the way that they interpret it).

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

I wonder what would happen if bush started quoting the constitution out of context to justify something of a rather. The country would be in uproar about it.

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Ha, you have more faith in the people of this country than I do. Bush has done a lot worse than that, and nobody cares until they have to start paying more money for gas, then all of a sudden they don't like him anymore. Constitution, shmonstitution, that's how much most people in this country give a damn.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

On the last page i provided an essay from a different website. At the end of this post i will provide onother such essay, i think it will explain to you what im talking about better then i ever could.

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I guess I understand what you are trying to say. We just disagree about how much the religious texts have to do with what fundamentalists do. Why do you think they do what they do?

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

The point i was making in the post that you quoted is that Muslims are (often) being sterotyped as being terrorists in, and the comparison i was making to blacks was that Blacks have been and are sterotyped as criminals/thugs.

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You don't see too many Amish terrorists, do you? I think their beliefs are as untrue as the Muslims, but they keep it to themselves, so it's not something we have to worry about as much.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

Does that in anyway make it ok the fact that the film demonizes or fearmongers European Muslims? Things like that only make rifts bigger between European Muslims and other Europeans. It exasterbates race/relegion relations and has no postive effect whatsoever. All it does is teach the impresionable to fear and hate muslims as a whole.

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That's like saying we shouldn't be against the KKK, because it just promotes fear and hatred towards white people.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

The cartoons were initialy published in a Danish magazine or newspaper and later on published in several other European newspapers/magazines. I take it you don't live in Europe? Furthermore the cartoons themelves were controversial and hateful, What would the Anti Defamation League (ADL) say if Anti Semtiic cartoons were published in New Papers and on shown on television?

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I live in the U.S. Censorship was the point, not whether not they liked the cartoons.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

I must add that the beheadings that occur, occured in countries such as Afghanistan under the Taliban, Iran (Which is a theocracy) and Saud Arabia which is governed under Sharia Law. These countries take the Qu'ran to a very literal level.

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This has been my whole point.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

Again i seriously doubt if the fundamentalist are using skewed and taken out of context verses from the Qu'ran like the video does. And if any do then they are a small minority of Muslims and that in no way excuses the innacuracy of the video.

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But you just said that there are whole countries who base their law on the literal interpretaion of the Koran.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

I seriously doubt that fundamentalist Muslims will smudge out that last part and just ignore it like the film Fitna so conveniently did. It's just my guess but i think that verse is just to lay out the rules of war. Again that is only my 2 cents about it.

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I can't say anymore about that. It's obvious that they do.

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

please people, judge Islam by its content not its sinful followers. the good and the bad exist in every religion.

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Why don't they take out the bad parts then, if they can just pick and choose what they want to follow anyway?

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Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky

And by the way i apologize for my belated response.

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Oh that's OK.

Gastone, I don't think we are convincing each other of anything. My POV is much different than yours. I think that if all religions aren't denounced by rational people, fundamentalist of various denominations could easily take over the whole world. They are the aggressive ones; the wimpy religions can't stand up to them, and aid them in their mission by their insistence on "tolerance" for any kind or irrational "faith", no matter how obnoxious it is.

That video was disgusting! it infuriates me how religion pollutes our world.

Oh and you cant excuse these acts by saying its a misinterpretation of the text when it is plainly stated in the books

The whole argument about whether a certain section of scripture has been quoted in or out of context is almost entirely irrelevant. Any language, other than that of mathematics, has intrinsic blur that needs to be interpreted by the reader or the listener. When I say something like 'time flies like an arrow', you almost automatically assume that I meant 'time flies in the same way that an arrow does'. Hang on, maybe I meant 'one should always time flies in the same way as one would time an arrow'. Your mind assigned a meaning to the text, and the interpretation is yours alone.

The point I am trying to make is that almost all meaning assigned to a verse in your holy text comes from you the reader, and not whoever wrote the text. Which makes one wonder why God chose to reveal himself in the form of highly obscure poetic language rather than the language of mathematics. In fact better still, why didn't God reveal himself by adding an appendage to the human brain (just humans mind you, as he presumably doesn't care much for other oganisms) that automatically beeps when you do something against the will of God. That way, the beeper would be the ultimate truth conveyor, and it wouldn't be open to the kind of muddling and perversion as text tends to be.

I think the real problem arises when you assume that the words in the text came from God. All signs point to the fact that they were composed by human poets with a millenium-old sense of morality.

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Originally Posted by Kushna Mufeed

Do us crazy Middle-Easteners try to stop Americans and Europeans from practising their customs? .

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Yes. Scarily so.

Sharia law anyone?


Hey, im late in on this thread. heh.

I just watched this with my partner on youtube. It renews my fear of Islam from when I was 14 and watched the planes crash into the twin towers.

My initial reaction was to wish that Obama would just send all of our nukes over to the Islamic countries and wipe them off the face of the earth. This reaction was purely emotional and vengeful.

This kind of adhesion to religion reminds me of Christianity before they became civilized, after the crusades and such. It seems that Islam, at least in other countries, has not evolved to the point that Christianity has. (the point where they realize subconsciously that it's all bullshit and they pick and choose what they want to believe in)

The stain of religion is destroying so many lives that I can't even comprehend. My partner just finished the book Infidel, which pretty much chronicles the life of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who went through female genital mutilation at the age of five. (without anesthetics BTW)

Islam is a poison among any modern society at this point. Just like Christianity was back in the dark ages.

Secularism is not perfect. But I would say that we are doing a HELL of a lot better then any of these fundie savages that are murdering and torturing and enslaving people.

I have read Kushna's replies from this thread. They are weak. You cannot get around the fact that Allah is a petty, jealous, and vengeful douche. Just like the god of the old testament.

Religion has been separating men and making us harm each other for long enough. It's time to shed off these ridiculous children's stories, and realize that the only way to succeed is to come together without superstition.