Thread: Fitna

Nobody posted this yet? (Dutch film about Islam).

Warning: Don't watch if easily disturbed by gory stuff.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02968312745410

That is a great illustration of what Islamofascism is really about. It is what I have been saying in every thread we have had on the subject in this forum. There is nothing innocent about what they are trying to do. They do not just want Americans out of their "holy land". They want to rule the world with a very oppressive form of government and kill all non-Muslims. If you are non-Muslim, that includes you. Don't think for two seconds they are going to like you a bit more just because you trashed George Bush's policies on the internet. They want you dead. Think really hard about who your friends and enemies are in this.

Go Holland!

Wow, when I started writing this, I didn’t at all expect it to turn out this long. I wonder how many people will read through it all. I wonder how many people will tear it apart, and analyze it piece by piece, just like I did to that film.

First off, let me start off by saying that the Qur'an speaks harshly about disbelievers. But this is by no means considered justification to go out and kill them. It's just Allah expressing how much he hates those who defy him. How the Muslims are told to treat the disbelievers is completely different.

I'm going to break this down, piece-by-piece.

Surah 8, verse 60 is indeed as the video has stated. But let's look a few verses before and after that:

[56]They are those with whom you have made a covenant, but they break the covenant every time and they do not fear Allah. [57]So if you gain mastery over them in war, punish them severely in order to disperse those who are behind them, so that they learn a lesson. [58]If you fear treachery from any people throw back (their covenant) to them (so as to be) on equal terms (that there will be no more covenant between you and them). Certainly Allah does not like the treacherous. [59]And let not those that disbelieve think that they can outstrip (escape from the punishment). Verily, they will never be able to save themselves (from Allah's punishment.) [60]And make ready against them the steeds of war to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides whom, you may not know but Allah does know. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah shall be repaid unto you, and you shall not be treated unjustly. [61]But if they incline to peace, you also incline to it, and trust in Allah. Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower. [62]And if they intend to deceive you, then verily, Allah is All-Sufficient for you. He it is Who has supported you with His Help and with the believers.

A different translation, but still the same message is conveyed. "Enemies of Allah" does not mean disbelievers in general, it means those who actively fight against the Muslims and Islam.The verse has been taken out of context. These enemies spoken about are ones who have made covenants and peace treaties, but over and over again break them. And even so, in verse 61, it clearly says that they must make peace if the enemy wishes. Need I say that this does not mean killing innocent civilians? These conditions only apply in a state of war. Is there anything at all wrong with that? The terrorists, like al-Qaeda, and the creators of this film have interpreted the verse out of context. This is not what the Qur'an teaches. This is not what the Prophet Muhammad taught. This is not Islam.


I have no idea how Surah 4, Verse 56 (which describes Hell) relates to Muslims hating the Jews. All I know is that Allah mentioning His punishment is no grounds for Muslims to exact it on people. I’d like to mention an interesting fact about the Qur’an. Whenever Hell is mentioned, Paradise is mentioned directly afterwards, and vice versa:

[56]Surely those who disbelieved in Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), We shall burn them in Fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for other skins that they may taste the punishment. Truly, Allah is Ever Most Powerful, All-Wise. [57]But those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah – Islamic Monotheism) and do deeds of righteousness, We shall admit them to the Gardens under which rivers flow, abiding therein forever. Therein they shall have purified mates, and We shall admit them to shades wide and ever deepening.

OK, now on to the hatred between Muslims and Jews. It has been prophesized that the Muslims and the Jews will have a war near the end of time. This, however, is by no means any reason for Muslims to hate and persecute Jews for the time being, as we are not in the state of war, and even so it would be forbidden to kill anyone except those armed against them. The Muslims who think otherwise are mistaken. If they were right, how come the Jews were able to seek refuge in Muslim lands when they were being persecuted by the Christians? The inflammation of hate we see nowadays has been caused by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Can you really blame of them? Of course you can; you’ve been watching too much CNN.

I think I can explain why the little girl called Jews monkeys and apes. There is a story in the Qur’an about a specific group of Jews who angered Allah so much (I can’t remember what they did. Maybe they killed a Prophet.) that He turned them into pigs and apes. This little girl was probably told by her parents that this meant that all Jews are monkeys and apes. Again, not what Islam teaches.

Those people who were with the posters praising Hitler and whatnot are fools. I’ve read accounts of Muslims who were laughing at the Jews who were being prosecuted, and a German General turning to him and saying, “What are you laughing at? You’re next.” In fact, a number of Muslims were executed during the holocaust, because they were circumcised and the Nazi’s didn’t believe they weren’t Jews.


Well, Surah 46, Verse 4 was a doozy of a misquote. They only put in the beginning of the verse. Let’s put it in proper context, shall we?

[1]Those who disbelieve, and hinder (men) from the path of Allah, He will render their deeds vain. [2]But those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and believe in that which is sent down to Muhammad – for it is the truth from their Lord – He will expiate them from their sins, and will make good their state. [3]This is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord. Thus does Allah set forth for mankind their parables. [4]So, when you meet those who disbelieve (in battle), smite their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time for) either generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (you are commanded), but if it had been Allah's Will, He himself could have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight) in order to test some of you with others. But those who are killed in the way of Allah, he will never let their deeds get lost.

In the video, they translated it as “until you have caused a bloodbath among them”, rather than “until you have killed and wounded many of them.” This is a crude translation, and an obvious attempt at making the Qur’an look bad. It also, again, leaves out the fact that this is talking about killing in the state of war. There is no talk of killing innocent civilians. Those who disbelieve, and hinder (men) from the path of truth Basically, this is talking about people who are no giving the Muslims to right to freedom of belief. Anyone nowadays would say the Muslims were justified to fight against such people.

Again, just in the way this video has twisted the verses, so have these Muslim fanatics.


Surah 4, Verse 89 cannot be fully understood unless we also take Verse 88.

[88]Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance). [89]They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus you all become equal. So take not friends from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither friends nor helpers from them.

Once again, this is not talking about any disbelievers, this is talking about hypocrites. People who pretend to be Muslim so they can try to corrupt it from within. This has happened, and this is why there are so many sects of Muslims.

There are reasons for killing people who convert to Islam and then turn away from it. One is to let people know that you can’t mess around with Islam. If you are going to convert, you have to be 100%, absolutely certain, with no doubt what so ever that you want to convert Islam. The second reason is to avoid confusion among the Muslims, as people converting to Islam one day and leaving it the next would do. As far as I know, someone who is born into Islam is allowed to leave the religion.

But, the punishing of those who apostatizes is still not permissible. There are two kinds of obligations in Islam: the obligation of the individual (i.e. daily prayers, fasting, etc.) and the obligation of the system. Since there is no Islamic State anywhere in the world right now, you cannot carry out the duties of the State.


Wow. Surah 8, Verse 39 wasn’t taken out of context, but it was misinterpreted.

[39]And fight against them until there is no more disbelief, and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

Yes, this sounds cruel, but it does not justify Muslims doing what it says. The majority of scholars agree that the time when this will happen is when Jesus will descend from heaven. Yeah, they believe he’s going to be on their side, not the Christians. Anywho, there is no justification for Muslims to be carrying this out as of now. Furthermore, there is no global conspiracy that I know of for Muslims to take over the world, and trust me, I would know. Do I believe that Muslims will end up ruling America, UK and Europe like one of those guys said? Probably, but it won’t be a hostile takeover. When you consider the difference between how much non-Muslims and Muslims are reproducing, and how many conversions to Islam there are every year (I believe the number is in the 100,000s), it’s inevitable.

The whole “Freedom Go To Hell”…well, I’m not entirely certain, but let me give you my take on it. I’m under the impression that Western society and it’s members has taken freedom to an extreme. They’ve gone from little freedom, to freedom to do anything. There’s too much ‘freedom to’ and not enough ‘freedom from’. With this freedom, people are only following their whims and desires, something that Islam warns against. That is probably where the phrase spawns from.


What exactly is wrong with building mosques and dressing in the veil, I don’t know. Freedom of religion should allow people to build their own mosques. If someone’s religion tells them to dress a certain way, they should be allowed to. Is this video against the increase in the number of Muslims in Europe? What’s wrong with multiculturalism?

Killing someone in your family for fornicating or adulterating is not justified in Islam either. Such a matter would have to be taken up with the courts. In an Islamic court, you would need 4 witnesses who actually saw the two in the act of intercourse.

Am I to understand the creators of this video, and the government of the Netherlands view adultery as legal? It’s legal to go against your wedding vows? I’m sorry, but that is just wrong. Homosexuality is probably the one thing that Muslims and non-Muslims will never agree on. The main reason that adultery and homosexuality are considered crimes in Islam is that Islam places a lot of emphasis on the family. Adultery destroys the family, and Homosexuality, well, there is no family…or there didn’t used to be. Another reason that Islam is against extra-marital sex is that it gives every child the right to have and know their mother and father. Yes, I realize that the punishments for these actions are harsh, but that is the kind of emphasis Islam has on a well structured family. And again, these punishments can’t be carried out unless there is an Islamic State, and then there is the difficulty of producing 4 eye witnesses to the act. The Islamic State’s job isn’t to hunt down and kill adulterers and homosexuals. If people keep on the low, nothing will happen to them. It’s hard to prove someone is gay. Near impossible if they don’t want to be found out.

Yes, Muslims do believe that the other political systems are wrong, but that does not mean they go out after congregation and crusade against members of the Socialist Party. Why do people have the perception that if I believe someone is wrong, I can’t coexist with them harmoniously? I don’t believe in dictatorship, yet I visit Syria every year without trouble. I don’t think smoking cigarettes is right, yet half my friends smoke. Why can Muslims not preach in the sanctity of their mosques about what we do not believe. It is not enough to talk only about what I believe, but also what other views I don’t believe and why I don’t believe them.

The images of bloody children and women being killed do not represent Islam in any way shape or form. These are the actions of people whose image of Islam has been twisted in one way or another.


Most of the news clippings, if they hold any truth, cannot be justified either. I’m just going to point out a few I want to comment on. The ones I don’t probably can’t be justified, and do not represent Islam’s teachings.

The stupidest of the bunch is probably that whole “Muhammad the Teddy Bear” episode in Sudan. Just explain to the woman the situation. I’m sure she would have been more than happy to rename it. And what about the kids? They’re the ones who wanted to name it Muhammad in the first place? Shouldn’t they be punished too?

“We do not agree with freedom of speech, because we denounce democracy.” That has got to be the most sickening of the lot. Islam does not call for dictatorship. The majority of the people have to be pleased with the current leader. If they are not, then a new one should be anointed. Freedom of speech IS allowed in Islam. If someone wants to publish an article trying to prove Islam is wrong and false, under the Islamic state, he cannot be stopped. That is as long as he is arguing against it academically, and not just bashing it like those Danish cartoons.

What’s wrong with the school closing on Muslim holidays? They close for Christian ones.

What’s wrong with a free trip to Makkah if you’re going to Islamic school? No, really. That pisses me off how they’re showing it like it’s a bad thing. What is wrong with going to Makkah when you’re at an Islamic school? It’s the holiest place in the world for Muslims!

What exactly is wrong with Turkish being taught at schools? Besides, Turkish isn’t really considered an Islamic language. If anything, Arabic is.

What’s the matter with Imams getting in? With the increase in the Muslim population, they need more Imams.

If there are mosques under the spell of radical Muslim groups, I haven’t noticed them over here, except for that one in Toronto. But that was just a group of them. Not like it was every kid in the mosque was involved with that. And there are A LOT more than 17 kids in that mosque, believe me.

An Imam legalizing violence against gays has no right to do so. As I said before, such punishments cannot be carried out, unless there is an Islamic State in place.

“Girls still genitally mutilated.” What? This has absolutely nothing, what so ever, to do with Islam. You will not find a verse or saying of the Prophet justifying it.

“Muslims hinder doctors taking care of women.” This, of course, should not be the case. It is ideal for a Muslim woman to find a female doctor, but if there are none available, then she has to be seen by a male doctor. In Islam, the forbidden becomes permissible in extreme situations like this. For example, if you’re starving to death, and the only food around is pork, you’re allowed to eat it.

What exactly is wrong with having an outlet that Muslims can invest without worrying about it being forbidden? In Islam, investment is allowed, but you can only invest in a company if it’s not involved with anything that would be forbidden in Islam. For example, you can’t invest in a liquor store or a porn shop. But it’s not the matter of the entire company involved in forbidden acts. You couldn’t invest in a restaurant if they served pork, for example. The choices for investment in today’s world become limited for Muslims. They need something like this.

“Qur’an license to kill” I believe I just explained why that is wrong above.

“Now the Islamic ideology has to be defeated.” Aww, that’s sweet. That’s exactly the reason the CIA has put forward to justify their continued existence. But you’re not supposed to know that.

Let me end by saying that this video does not represent Islam’s teachings, but the twisted way many Muslims have interpreted it. Hate the Muslims, not Islam. I cannot justify their actions. But even the Muslims are beginning wake up and see the religion for what it really is. I’m seeing it happen.

Worry comes from what happens, Kushna, not what is SUPPOSED to happen.

I realize that, but I felt I had to show the verses in their true context. Y'know, show people what Islam actually teaches. It should be Muslimphobia, not Islamophobia. Non-Muslims aren't the only ones the Muslims are making worried and pissing off.