Nobody posted this yet? (Dutch film about Islam).
Warning: Don't watch if easily disturbed by gory stuff.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02968312745410
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Nobody posted this yet? (Dutch film about Islam).
Warning: Don't watch if easily disturbed by gory stuff.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02968312745410
That is a great illustration of what Islamofascism is really about. It is what I have been saying in every thread we have had on the subject in this forum. There is nothing innocent about what they are trying to do. They do not just want Americans out of their "holy land". They want to rule the world with a very oppressive form of government and kill all non-Muslims. If you are non-Muslim, that includes you. Don't think for two seconds they are going to like you a bit more just because you trashed George Bush's policies on the internet. They want you dead. Think really hard about who your friends and enemies are in this.
Go Holland!
Wow, when I started writing this, I didn’t at all expect it to turn out this long. I wonder how many people will read through it all. I wonder how many people will tear it apart, and analyze it piece by piece, just like I did to that film.
First off, let me start off by saying that the Qur'an speaks harshly about disbelievers. But this is by no means considered justification to go out and kill them. It's just Allah expressing how much he hates those who defy him. How the Muslims are told to treat the disbelievers is completely different.
I'm going to break this down, piece-by-piece.
Surah 8, verse 60 is indeed as the video has stated. But let's look a few verses before and after that:
[56]They are those with whom you have made a covenant, but they break the covenant every time and they do not fear Allah. [57]So if you gain mastery over them in war, punish them severely in order to disperse those who are behind them, so that they learn a lesson. [58]If you fear treachery from any people throw back (their covenant) to them (so as to be) on equal terms (that there will be no more covenant between you and them). Certainly Allah does not like the treacherous. [59]And let not those that disbelieve think that they can outstrip (escape from the punishment). Verily, they will never be able to save themselves (from Allah's punishment.) [60]And make ready against them the steeds of war to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides whom, you may not know but Allah does know. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah shall be repaid unto you, and you shall not be treated unjustly. [61]But if they incline to peace, you also incline to it, and trust in Allah. Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower. [62]And if they intend to deceive you, then verily, Allah is All-Sufficient for you. He it is Who has supported you with His Help and with the believers.
A different translation, but still the same message is conveyed. "Enemies of Allah" does not mean disbelievers in general, it means those who actively fight against the Muslims and Islam.The verse has been taken out of context. These enemies spoken about are ones who have made covenants and peace treaties, but over and over again break them. And even so, in verse 61, it clearly says that they must make peace if the enemy wishes. Need I say that this does not mean killing innocent civilians? These conditions only apply in a state of war. Is there anything at all wrong with that? The terrorists, like al-Qaeda, and the creators of this film have interpreted the verse out of context. This is not what the Qur'an teaches. This is not what the Prophet Muhammad taught. This is not Islam.
I have no idea how Surah 4, Verse 56 (which describes Hell) relates to Muslims hating the Jews. All I know is that Allah mentioning His punishment is no grounds for Muslims to exact it on people. I’d like to mention an interesting fact about the Qur’an. Whenever Hell is mentioned, Paradise is mentioned directly afterwards, and vice versa:
[56]Surely those who disbelieved in Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), We shall burn them in Fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for other skins that they may taste the punishment. Truly, Allah is Ever Most Powerful, All-Wise. [57]But those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah – Islamic Monotheism) and do deeds of righteousness, We shall admit them to the Gardens under which rivers flow, abiding therein forever. Therein they shall have purified mates, and We shall admit them to shades wide and ever deepening.
OK, now on to the hatred between Muslims and Jews. It has been prophesized that the Muslims and the Jews will have a war near the end of time. This, however, is by no means any reason for Muslims to hate and persecute Jews for the time being, as we are not in the state of war, and even so it would be forbidden to kill anyone except those armed against them. The Muslims who think otherwise are mistaken. If they were right, how come the Jews were able to seek refuge in Muslim lands when they were being persecuted by the Christians? The inflammation of hate we see nowadays has been caused by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Can you really blame of them? Of course you can; you’ve been watching too much CNN.
I think I can explain why the little girl called Jews monkeys and apes. There is a story in the Qur’an about a specific group of Jews who angered Allah so much (I can’t remember what they did. Maybe they killed a Prophet.) that He turned them into pigs and apes. This little girl was probably told by her parents that this meant that all Jews are monkeys and apes. Again, not what Islam teaches.
Those people who were with the posters praising Hitler and whatnot are fools. I’ve read accounts of Muslims who were laughing at the Jews who were being prosecuted, and a German General turning to him and saying, “What are you laughing at? You’re next.” In fact, a number of Muslims were executed during the holocaust, because they were circumcised and the Nazi’s didn’t believe they weren’t Jews.
Well, Surah 46, Verse 4 was a doozy of a misquote. They only put in the beginning of the verse. Let’s put it in proper context, shall we?
[1]Those who disbelieve, and hinder (men) from the path of Allah, He will render their deeds vain. [2]But those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and believe in that which is sent down to Muhammad – for it is the truth from their Lord – He will expiate them from their sins, and will make good their state. [3]This is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord. Thus does Allah set forth for mankind their parables. [4]So, when you meet those who disbelieve (in battle), smite their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time for) either generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (you are commanded), but if it had been Allah's Will, He himself could have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight) in order to test some of you with others. But those who are killed in the way of Allah, he will never let their deeds get lost.
In the video, they translated it as “until you have caused a bloodbath among them”, rather than “until you have killed and wounded many of them.” This is a crude translation, and an obvious attempt at making the Qur’an look bad. It also, again, leaves out the fact that this is talking about killing in the state of war. There is no talk of killing innocent civilians. Those who disbelieve, and hinder (men) from the path of truth Basically, this is talking about people who are no giving the Muslims to right to freedom of belief. Anyone nowadays would say the Muslims were justified to fight against such people.
Again, just in the way this video has twisted the verses, so have these Muslim fanatics.
Surah 4, Verse 89 cannot be fully understood unless we also take Verse 88.
[88]Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance). [89]They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus you all become equal. So take not friends from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither friends nor helpers from them.
Once again, this is not talking about any disbelievers, this is talking about hypocrites. People who pretend to be Muslim so they can try to corrupt it from within. This has happened, and this is why there are so many sects of Muslims.
There are reasons for killing people who convert to Islam and then turn away from it. One is to let people know that you can’t mess around with Islam. If you are going to convert, you have to be 100%, absolutely certain, with no doubt what so ever that you want to convert Islam. The second reason is to avoid confusion among the Muslims, as people converting to Islam one day and leaving it the next would do. As far as I know, someone who is born into Islam is allowed to leave the religion.
But, the punishing of those who apostatizes is still not permissible. There are two kinds of obligations in Islam: the obligation of the individual (i.e. daily prayers, fasting, etc.) and the obligation of the system. Since there is no Islamic State anywhere in the world right now, you cannot carry out the duties of the State.
Wow. Surah 8, Verse 39 wasn’t taken out of context, but it was misinterpreted.
[39]And fight against them until there is no more disbelief, and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.
Yes, this sounds cruel, but it does not justify Muslims doing what it says. The majority of scholars agree that the time when this will happen is when Jesus will descend from heaven. Yeah, they believe he’s going to be on their side, not the Christians. Anywho, there is no justification for Muslims to be carrying this out as of now. Furthermore, there is no global conspiracy that I know of for Muslims to take over the world, and trust me, I would know. Do I believe that Muslims will end up ruling America, UK and Europe like one of those guys said? Probably, but it won’t be a hostile takeover. When you consider the difference between how much non-Muslims and Muslims are reproducing, and how many conversions to Islam there are every year (I believe the number is in the 100,000s), it’s inevitable.
The whole “Freedom Go To Hell”…well, I’m not entirely certain, but let me give you my take on it. I’m under the impression that Western society and it’s members has taken freedom to an extreme. They’ve gone from little freedom, to freedom to do anything. There’s too much ‘freedom to’ and not enough ‘freedom from’. With this freedom, people are only following their whims and desires, something that Islam warns against. That is probably where the phrase spawns from.
What exactly is wrong with building mosques and dressing in the veil, I don’t know. Freedom of religion should allow people to build their own mosques. If someone’s religion tells them to dress a certain way, they should be allowed to. Is this video against the increase in the number of Muslims in Europe? What’s wrong with multiculturalism?
Killing someone in your family for fornicating or adulterating is not justified in Islam either. Such a matter would have to be taken up with the courts. In an Islamic court, you would need 4 witnesses who actually saw the two in the act of intercourse.
Am I to understand the creators of this video, and the government of the Netherlands view adultery as legal? It’s legal to go against your wedding vows? I’m sorry, but that is just wrong. Homosexuality is probably the one thing that Muslims and non-Muslims will never agree on. The main reason that adultery and homosexuality are considered crimes in Islam is that Islam places a lot of emphasis on the family. Adultery destroys the family, and Homosexuality, well, there is no family…or there didn’t used to be. Another reason that Islam is against extra-marital sex is that it gives every child the right to have and know their mother and father. Yes, I realize that the punishments for these actions are harsh, but that is the kind of emphasis Islam has on a well structured family. And again, these punishments can’t be carried out unless there is an Islamic State, and then there is the difficulty of producing 4 eye witnesses to the act. The Islamic State’s job isn’t to hunt down and kill adulterers and homosexuals. If people keep on the low, nothing will happen to them. It’s hard to prove someone is gay. Near impossible if they don’t want to be found out.
Yes, Muslims do believe that the other political systems are wrong, but that does not mean they go out after congregation and crusade against members of the Socialist Party. Why do people have the perception that if I believe someone is wrong, I can’t coexist with them harmoniously? I don’t believe in dictatorship, yet I visit Syria every year without trouble. I don’t think smoking cigarettes is right, yet half my friends smoke. Why can Muslims not preach in the sanctity of their mosques about what we do not believe. It is not enough to talk only about what I believe, but also what other views I don’t believe and why I don’t believe them.
The images of bloody children and women being killed do not represent Islam in any way shape or form. These are the actions of people whose image of Islam has been twisted in one way or another.
Most of the news clippings, if they hold any truth, cannot be justified either. I’m just going to point out a few I want to comment on. The ones I don’t probably can’t be justified, and do not represent Islam’s teachings.
The stupidest of the bunch is probably that whole “Muhammad the Teddy Bear” episode in Sudan. Just explain to the woman the situation. I’m sure she would have been more than happy to rename it. And what about the kids? They’re the ones who wanted to name it Muhammad in the first place? Shouldn’t they be punished too?
“We do not agree with freedom of speech, because we denounce democracy.” That has got to be the most sickening of the lot. Islam does not call for dictatorship. The majority of the people have to be pleased with the current leader. If they are not, then a new one should be anointed. Freedom of speech IS allowed in Islam. If someone wants to publish an article trying to prove Islam is wrong and false, under the Islamic state, he cannot be stopped. That is as long as he is arguing against it academically, and not just bashing it like those Danish cartoons.
What’s wrong with the school closing on Muslim holidays? They close for Christian ones.
What’s wrong with a free trip to Makkah if you’re going to Islamic school? No, really. That pisses me off how they’re showing it like it’s a bad thing. What is wrong with going to Makkah when you’re at an Islamic school? It’s the holiest place in the world for Muslims!
What exactly is wrong with Turkish being taught at schools? Besides, Turkish isn’t really considered an Islamic language. If anything, Arabic is.
What’s the matter with Imams getting in? With the increase in the Muslim population, they need more Imams.
If there are mosques under the spell of radical Muslim groups, I haven’t noticed them over here, except for that one in Toronto. But that was just a group of them. Not like it was every kid in the mosque was involved with that. And there are A LOT more than 17 kids in that mosque, believe me.
An Imam legalizing violence against gays has no right to do so. As I said before, such punishments cannot be carried out, unless there is an Islamic State in place.
“Girls still genitally mutilated.” What? This has absolutely nothing, what so ever, to do with Islam. You will not find a verse or saying of the Prophet justifying it.
“Muslims hinder doctors taking care of women.” This, of course, should not be the case. It is ideal for a Muslim woman to find a female doctor, but if there are none available, then she has to be seen by a male doctor. In Islam, the forbidden becomes permissible in extreme situations like this. For example, if you’re starving to death, and the only food around is pork, you’re allowed to eat it.
What exactly is wrong with having an outlet that Muslims can invest without worrying about it being forbidden? In Islam, investment is allowed, but you can only invest in a company if it’s not involved with anything that would be forbidden in Islam. For example, you can’t invest in a liquor store or a porn shop. But it’s not the matter of the entire company involved in forbidden acts. You couldn’t invest in a restaurant if they served pork, for example. The choices for investment in today’s world become limited for Muslims. They need something like this.
“Qur’an license to kill” I believe I just explained why that is wrong above.
“Now the Islamic ideology has to be defeated.” Aww, that’s sweet. That’s exactly the reason the CIA has put forward to justify their continued existence. But you’re not supposed to know that.
Let me end by saying that this video does not represent Islam’s teachings, but the twisted way many Muslims have interpreted it. Hate the Muslims, not Islam. I cannot justify their actions. But even the Muslims are beginning wake up and see the religion for what it really is. I’m seeing it happen.
Worry comes from what happens, Kushna, not what is SUPPOSED to happen.
I realize that, but I felt I had to show the verses in their true context. Y'know, show people what Islam actually teaches. It should be Muslimphobia, not Islamophobia. Non-Muslims aren't the only ones the Muslims are making worried and pissing off.
Kushna, when you need that much typing to explain that when the Koran says to kill people, it doesn't really mean for you to do it, what does that tell you? You can't deny that millions and millions of people are interpreting the Koran in a way that does tell them to kill people; this isn't just a few psychopaths "taking it out of context".
The Bible is no better, except that most Christians don't read it or pay attention to what it says.
I hope you're right that most Muslims are starting to pay attention to what is happening.
P.S. It doesn't make sense to hate the people, but not the belief--it should be the other way around. I don't hate the members of my family who are Christian, but I do hate their belief.
If you look at a few verses before and after, you see quite obviously that the verses HAVE been taken out of context. Which is pretty much why I colour coded them if you don't want to read everything.
So, you should hate the faith for something it doesn't teach, not the people who have taken it the wrong way?
my view, the old take a line or 2 out and use scaremongering technique.
The trick CAN be played with other religious books such as the bible and old testament.
As far as i have seen, He gives only the most superficial of interpretations and he only portrays Islam with the Crazies of the Relegion. Its like making a documentary on Christianity and only showing the absoloute fundamentalists who say "Earthquakes happen because of sodomy"
I can dig up Christian verses that condome rape but does that make it a true Christian teaching? No absoloutely note.
You wouldn't learn about Jews from Nazies and you wouldn't learn about Christianity from Atheists so why is this true of Islam?
All he did (Geert Wilder) was blame all of Europe's social and economic problems on its Muslim population and said Muslims were secretly planning to take over the world.
That is exactly what Hitler said about the Jewish population of Europe.
"edit" In the movie they have a newspaper caption saying "Teachers teach Jihad in dutch schools" or something to that effect. You will duely note that the Jihad that is taught in schools isn't the kill the infidels variety. Not at all. In Islam the word Jihad has mulitple meanings. It means "struggle". an interesting event in the media, is they label terrorists "Jihadies". In Islamic countries the word Jihad has positive conotations and by giving the name "Jihadies" to terrorists you are endearing them. But most Muslim don't use the western defenition of Jihad and Geert Wilder took the word Jihad out of context to give it the meaning of "Kill the infidels". Which further leads me to beleive Geert Wilder is a bigot or an idiot.
"edit" In the video it shows Dutch Muslims walking in the streets and then the graphics and whatnot makes them out as a threat as a danger to dutch society as if they are a disease that needs purging. This video resembles a nazi film in the sense of a nazi film would use simlar tactics to draw antimosity towards jews. This video promotes hatred of Muslims especially European Muslims and it uses his own interpretations of the Koran even though he is not a qu'ranic scholar.
Millions of people? Where are you getting your statistics from my friend?Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbean
No ones religion is ever interpreted "the right way" is it?
Didn't think so.
What is "the right way" then?
I am not a biblical/quranic/talmudic scholar by any means. But i think it's important to understand the context of a verse not just the verse itself. and Often times as in Christianity such verses are not to be taken literally and are not meant in literally at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seismosaur
I'm sorry, but providing us the "correct" way to "interpret" that damned book doesn't change the fact that it allows for a hell of a lot of BS in this world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant
I'm not implying that there is only one correct way in which to interpret something; but i am a firm beleiver that sound bytes or just verses by themselves are not sufficient to make an accurate assumption. You have to read the verse in context and take other things into mind aswell and only then can you make a truly "educated guess" as it were...If you just present verses by themselves as in the video Fitna then you are taking them completely out of context in the most literall way you can.
Here, I imagine you folks will be interested to read this, that what i have found on onother website.
Quote:
Geert Wilders has raised many points in his movie Fitna. He has tried to give a face to Islam that he and people like him (eg Osama Bin Laden) like to project. Misquoting Quran, and picking verses of his choice from the holy book ignoring verses just next to them. Giving half information is same as creating misinformation. However, for people who are wise, the same fitna created by Geert Wilders will lead to understanding the truth and salvation, once they read Quran and understand the real context.
While this response does not intend to explain reactive behaviours of some muslims (including clerics), it will explain the misquoted text from the source - Quran.
Movie starts with following verse quoted from holy Quran:
First Quran verse presented in the movie:
Quran: 008.060
"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly. "
But Geert refuses to read and quote just the next verse without understanding context, showing his ill intentions. Courage is being brought into hearts of fearful muslims against whom war has been declared and peace has been taken away:
Quran: 008.061
But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
Islam encourages peace, will somebody want a better proof than this. Even against those who started to go against peace, you also get ready to respond to maintain peace, fighting those who distroy peace, but if they go back to peace, then there is no reason for war.
A little earlier in the same chapter the context becomes even more clear:
Quran: 008.039
And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
Permission is being given to fight those who cause tumult or oppression without letting justice and forcing people not to choose what religion is right for them.
Quran: 008.058
If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous.
It is all about terms and conditions. "IF". Permission is being given to fight with given circumstances of treachery from hostile group.
Same chapter again, to make context even more clear:
Quran: 008.056
They are those with whom thou didst make a covenant, but they break their covenant every time, and they have not the fear (of Allah).
"Those" are the people who break agreements and treaties.
Doesn't make the same chapter clarify people like those who made "Fita" with all the wrong intentions misquoting Quran,
Quran: 008.049
"Lo! the hypocrites say, and those in whose hearts is a disease: "These people,- their religion has misled them." But if any trust in Allah, behold! Allah is Exalted in might, Wise."
--------------------------------------...
The second verse from Quran presented is:
Quran: 004.056
Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
These are the warnings for disbelievers. And there is sign of God in it for the wise. Can an illiterate man (Mohammad, p.b.u.h) who didn't know how to read and write say such a thing which only MD's of today's medical sciences are able to explain.
Today science has discovered that the only place where pain of fire is felt is not the meat, but it is skin. God is giving His sign for the wise people in it to know the Quran is from God only. Punishment through roasting the skin, again and again, only the skin. Still there are many like Geert who did not think about it. For sure there are many signs for believers in Quran.
--------------------------------------...
The third verse quoted is:
Quran: 047.004
Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
Again same chapter explains the context:
Quran: 047.020
Those who believe say, "Why is not a sura sent down (for us)?" But when a sura of basic or categorical meaning is revealed, and fighting is mentioned therein, thou wilt see those in whose hearts is a disease looking at thee with a look of one in swoon at the approach of death. But more fitting for them-
Chapters 25-78 were revealed during the early stage of Madani life after migration, at the time when muslims were weak, and feared to participate in wars staged on them by disbelievers.
--------------------------------------...
Fourth time a verse is mentioned:
Quran: 004.089
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
Geert again ignores the context from the same chapter, a few verses away:
Quran: 004.075
And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"
Islam is all about self defence, getting people (men, women, children) their right away from oppression, ill treatment, who cry and ask God for help.
--------------------------------------...
And the final Verse quoted in the movie:
Quran: 008.039
And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
Geert picks the right verse that explains the whole context, but verily,
Quran: 047.024
Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them?
Quran: 2:171
The example of such disbelievers is that of parrots who repeat what they hear of sounds and calls, without understanding. deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand.
Again it says that if they cease to fight, don't fight. And permission is given to fight until all oppression is nulified, and people have the freedom to choose the right religion and faith as they want.
--------------------------------------...
Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives.
There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians’ life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram – or forbidden - and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not “martyrs.”
The Qur’an, Islam’s revealed text, states: "Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind."
(Qur’an, 5:32)
Prophet Muhammad said there is no excuse for committing unjust acts: "Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong to them. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong (even) if they do evil." (Al-Tirmidhi)
The Holy Prophet Muhammad(s) puts it in these words: "All creatures are like a family of God: and he loves the most those who are the most beneficent to His family. (Narrated by Anas. Mishkat al-Masabih,3:1392.)
Even duty of prophet was to clearly defined as to convey the messege of God to human beings:
So if they dispute with you (Muhammad SAW) say: "I have submitted myself to Allah (in Islam), and (so have) those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and to those who are illiterates (Arab pagans): "Do you (also) submit yourselves (to Allah in Islam)?" If they do, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message; and Allah is All-Seer of (His ) slaves.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #20)
Then, if they turn away, your duty (O Muhammad SAW) is only to convey (the Message) in a clear way.
( سورة النحل , An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #82)
Quran
2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.
Don't give bad rating to a Mercedes only because the driver didn’t know how to drive such a good car and had an accident. Don't judge islam by the actions of bad Muslims who take out their frustration with west with wrong interpretation of Islamic teaching. Know islam by yourself. Give yourself a chance to know truth with open mind
Qarizma71, we don't need to make a counter movie, read my answer, all you need is a bit of knowledge on this topic
I don't see why you muslim's care.
The Dutch don't want them in their country. Guess what? It's THEIR country! You crazy Middle-Easterners disallow the American and European customs to be practiced in your countries, so why can't we do the same?
That aside, it really DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE QUARAN SAYS. It matters what those idiotic radicals (And yes there are a LOT more then you let on) do (i.e. Killing people) that upsets us and they believe in, guess what, THE KORAN.
Then they should stop allowing people of other cultures and races immigrating to their country. Do us crazy Middle-Easteners try to stop Americans and Europeans from practising their customs? No. If anything, we stop our own people from doing that. Why? Because it's better to be proud of what you are, then pretending to be something that you're not.
In this case it DOES MATTER WHAT THE QUR'AN SAYS. Why? Because the movie is blaming the Qur'an for verses taken out of context and telling Muslims to rip them out. Put them in context, and there is nothing wrong. The film is portraying it as if this is actually what Islam teaches.
And if it is a crime to write something that can be taken out of context, stop writing all together.
Islam does not teach anything. Islam is the group of people who belive the writings in the Koran.
Again-- It does not matter that it is meant to say one thing, it matters that it is justification for another thing. (Killing infadels)
That is so true. That amounts to slander does it not? That video, Fitna amounts to hate speech. Im not sure if you watched it but at one point it even draws hate towards Dutch Muslims and makes it seem as if they are a plague of sorts. That video is hate speech and just reflects the mans own hate and prejudice. This video absoloutely should not be distrubuted. it is reminscent of Nazi hate mongering towards jews and it is reminscent to the Anti semitic production called the "The protocols of Zion".Quote:
Originally Posted by Kushna Mufeed
The Dutch brought them in as Immigrants, if they get a green card and later Dutch citizenship then they have every right to live in the Netherlands no matter what their relegion. After World Ware II France brought in loads of Immigrants from it's former North African Colonies/protectorates to help rebuild France after the chaous of WWII, the North African immigrants were infact abused by the french and discriminated against. If i were i would watch what you say and stop playing the victime and making out people of Middle Eastern descent to be the bad guys. I find it intriguing you accuse me of being a Muslim because I speak out against hate speech.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seismosaur
You're writings reflect a great deal of ingorance on your part my friend.
Oh yes of course. It's all the Dutch's infinite wells of HATRED. DAMN THEM!
DAMN THEM ALL!
I mean, Al Qaeda only threanted to blow up their coutry and roast them all, but that doesn't mean anything-- They misinterpreted my religion! Those dogs!
Watch the Video and you will see it incites hatred against Dutch Muslims.
Seismosaur it would be welcome if you take a break from your "infininite wittiness" and talk on the issues instead.
Well you guys aren't seeing it from their perspective.
That is why humans fail at cooperation and peace.
"Their perspective"? please elaborate
per·spec·tive (pr-spktv)
n.
1.
a. A view or vista.
b. A mental view or outlook: "It is useful occasionally to look at the past to gain a perspective on the present" Fabian Linden.
2. The appearance of objects in depth as perceived by normal binocular vision.
3.
a. The relationship of aspects of a subject to each other and to a whole: a perspective of history; a need to view the problem in the proper perspective.
b. Subjective evaluation of relative significance; a point of view: the perspective of the displaced homemaker.
c. The ability to perceive things in their actual interrelations or comparative importance: tried to keep my perspective throughout the crisis.
4. The technique of representing three-dimensional objects and depth relationships on a two-dimensional surface.
adj.
Of, relating to, seen, or represented in perspective.
[Middle English, science of optics (influenced by French perspective, perspective), from Medieval Latin perspectva (ars), feminine of perspectvus, optical, from perspectus, past participle of perspicere, to inspect : per-, per- + specere, to look; see spek- in Indo-European roots.]
per·spectiv·al adj.
per·spective·ly adv.
i.e. The position they are looking at the situation from.
I mean to say the view point of whom? The dutch, the Muslims..Whos perspective?
The Dutch of course.
I understand the Dutch are having trouble with muslims "not intergrating". I listen to Radio Netherlands on occasion and for the first few weeks it was just full of them whining about Muslims.
But you feel the situation warrants dutch filmakers to incite hatred towards dutch muslims?
If they feel so threatened by the Radicals who, whether you like it or not, are nearly majority of, and face of, the Muslim faith.
As I said earlier-- It is their country, if they choose not to let Muslims in, then that is up to them. They don't need to "entice hate"; the radicals do that for you all.
The Radicals? In the Netherlands Radical muslims are not to holland as gang members are to LA....Unless you can prove to me they are that much of a problem to the Dutch?
And where is that bit about the majority of muslims being radicals coming from now? Can you back that statement up?
Geert Wilders is a joke of a Politician. A Definite case of borderline. He's in terrible need of attention yet he has no realistic political plans for Holland. His only "Campaign" is one of fear of the unknown culture and life/worldview of the Islam. There has been some clash of cultures in Holland between western views and islamic, eastern views, but instead of sitting round the table and socially solving these problems he uses this problem as a popularity train to hitch a hide on.
Luckily the fool hyped his movie so much before it even came out that there wasn't much room for any surprise or impact left. I haven't seen his movie yet, which has totally flopped, but I've heard it is very meaningglessly the repeatition of anti-islamic views and supporting videofootage of it as if a few radical muslims represent the Islamic Mentality. Nothing new from the rethorical, black-and white- world view-propaganda we've known for so long of the ever present archetypical fascists amongst us.
It just goes to show how much emotional and how little intellectual the mentality on which fascism & racism are based is.
Yes, as I said before, I don't think you should hate the people, but hate the teachings that cause them to do bad things. Should I hate my own family because I think that they believe things that are harmful, or should I love them and hate the things that they believe, which there is hope that there can be a change for the better?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kushna Mufeed
Taking it the "wrong way" is just your opinion on what it means; obviously they interpret it differently and would say you are taking it the "wrong way".
It's not a "trick", it is the nature of those writings. You are just disagreeing with people who take the passages literally; it's just your opinion. People have fought forever about what those books mean. You're no more right in your opinion about whether it's a trick than the people who interpret them literally and "out of context". (I hate that phrase; it implies that you have to be some sort of historian and scholar to read a few simple sentences, which supposedly are the word of god. Obviously god should have been a little more careful in the phrasing. I'm being sarcastic because there's no such thing as god anyway.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
So? If those kind of Christians are hurting a lot of people, they should have a documentary made about them too. They probably have. There's just fewer fundamental violent Christians at this point in history, but they do their share of damage too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
Again, your opinion. In my opinion, and that of some Christians, that would make it a true Christian teaching. They are many horrible things in the bible; we've been all thru that here (in this forum.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
You can learn a lot about Christianity from atheists, believe me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
He didn't blame all of Europe's problems on the Muslim's; and it's obvious that they aren't doing anything in secret--they're pretty outspoken about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
How many do you think it is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
Again, that context thing. Tell that to the fundamentalists--maybe they know more about their holy book than you do, is that possible? They can be taken any way you want to take them, and a lot of people take them literally and "out of context", obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
So you're saying fundamental religious extremists are OK with you, and the people who are against radicals who kill people based on their religion are the real fascists and rascists? I think you got it backwards. (I don't know how race is really involved here anyway.)Quote:
Originally Posted by SKA
Listen, I don't think you know what out of context means. Reading out of context means you take one verse out of a page and read it selectively. Reading in context means you read the whole page where the verse came from and see how the verse is writen IN CONTEXT. You don't need to be a historian to know that reading out of context can distort the whole meaning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
No it's not my opinion. Its fact i can dig up christian verses that say rape is "ok" and that genocide "OK".Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
An exageration on my part. but he did Demonize Holland's Muslims at one point in the video, as it cast a sinister look over them. And gave the impression that they some how trying to take over the country (by demographic change). If you saw the video then you will clearly see that it "demonifies" Dutch muslims so to speak and i beleive that is unacceptable to do to a minority. It's not acceptable to do to blacks and not to jews and infact at one point in history it was done to jews. The video goes beyound attacking islam it also spreads hate towards Dutch Muslims and makes them out to be some sort of danger or malady to the country. This is unacceptable and i view this as being hate speech and intentionally taking the quran out of context.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonbeam
[quote=moonbeam Again, that context thing. Tell that to the fundamentalists--maybe they know more about their holy book than you do, is that possible? They can be taken any way you want to take them, and a lot of people take them literally and "out of context", obviously.[/QUOTE]
Again my point remains MoonBeam. If you take a verse out of context and say that is the true meaning of it then that is a fallacy. You have to read what came before the verse and what came after the verse to understand what it really means. Did you read the post i made from a muslim website that explained how Wilder took the Qu'ran out of context? I think you should read it and understand when you take something of context it does change the meaning. And before the accusations start flying NO im not muslim. On the contrary im Catholic. However i am for race/relegious tolerance and i can't stand people who make videos like these that sterotype a whole relegion and intentionally take things out of context to exagerate the meaning of a verse and what is the worst, its a video that casts hate on muslims and on Dutch Muslims especially.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
I believe you misinterpreted her here. She said taking those words to not be christian teachings is your opinion, not if they are there or not. She means how things are interpreted is someone's opinion, so, you cant say if those words are really christian to everyone or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
I can honestly say in Christianity or atleast in the bulk of Christianity those are not what is taught. Likewise with Islam, I can honestly say most people don't adhere to verses taken out of context.Quote:
Originally Posted by tkdyo
However that argument can be used for anything. I can tell you for example. People take the Harry Potter books as gospel and you can tell me No they don't and i will just tell you Well you can't say the harry potter books are not holy to everyone...You never know 100%
Yes, what tkdyo said. Whether or not the whoever wrote those holy books meant for them to be used one way or another way is irrelevant; I'm talking about what is actually being done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
Yea, and I can dig up verses saying that slavery is OK, and kill your family if they don't believe and your children if they talk back, and stone your neighbors if they grow two crops in one field, etc. I agree that the bible has a lot of horrible things. It's your opinion on whether or not they are "taken out of context". Some people think they should be interpreted literally. Obviously people have done a lot of bad things because they believe in the bible. Luckily, most people around here don't do what it says, right? There are people who would like to, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
Blacks and jews weren't hurting anyone; they were the ones being oppressed. It's not analagous at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
I'm not Dutch, but I wouldn't appreciate my freedom of speech being restricted because of Islam, which it has been, and I'd get a little worried about them killing people who say things that they don't like, which they have done. They want to be the oppressors; it's completely obvious; they just don't have the means to do it effectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
Can we get past you thinking that you know how to be a better Muslim than them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
Did you see how Muslims were interpreting the Koran to mean that they should kill people? Tell them it's a fallacy, not me--they're the ones using it as justification to do the bad things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
It doesn't matter one bit how I interpret it; I think the whole thing is a bunch of lies, just like the bible. That's irrelevant. Out of context, in context, who cares; it doesn't matter much when it's all a bunch of crap anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
I don't care what religion you are; I figured you had some sort of irrational belief because of all the contortions around "context"--I assume you've had to do the same thing to justify the crazy stuff in your own holy book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
I guess you can stand people killing other people because their religion tells them to?
P.S. Gastone, I think the faith is the problem. At best people would give up all irrational beliefs, but the best we can probably hope for is for Islam to become like your own religion--Catholics used to be pretty bad too, til they all pretty much started ignoring what they are supposed to do to be a good one. Once Muslims treat the Koran like most Christians treat the bible, it will be much better; til then, some places really have a problem. If you can't see that fundamental Islam is causing people trouble, you just aren't paying attention.
My point was the very nature of the passage changes if you only show selective parts of it for example. In the video it showed this passage:"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly. "Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
Put it neglected to include this passage: "
Quran: 008.061
But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)."
By not including the last passage i provided it skewed the whole verse. That's the point i was making.
Yes some people say they should be taken litterally but you should note that those people read the whole verse and not just 5 lines of it like was presented in the video.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
Actually it is, the blacks were being portrayed as being all thugs and the jews were being completely demonized aswell. The vast majority of blacks for example were not thugs, that was just a sterotype that came to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
The vast majority of Muslims are not trainbombers or Militants. So you think Muslims in Europe who are mostly just people who get on with their lives like everyone else should all be demonized and vilifed by the actions of some terrorists ? You beleive in collective punishement? The video was demonizing and vilifing ordinary Muslims. If you ask me thats bigotry in the same way blacks and indians were all collectively vilified as criminals and alchoholics and barbarians and etc...
I'm all for freedom of speech and everything like that. If Geer Wilder's video did not demonize and vilify all muslims then i would be all for his video being in video stores and what not no matter how inaccurate and exagatory it is. But the point remains that the video demonified and vilified all muslims point blank especially Dutch Muslims. I consider that hatmongering and bigotry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
I'm not telling anyone how to be a better Muslim. All i have been saying is intentonally only providing parts of verses and leaving out other parts of a verse to entionally give a skewed and false picture of Islam is ridiculous and comes close to propaganda. I know im repeating myself but you seem to need me to make that point over for you to understand it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
That is not what i said at all. Shall i repat myself again? I said that misrepresenting verses by taking them out of context and presenting them as teachings of Islam is a fallacy. Again refer to the begining of my post to see what i mean by taking a verse out of context please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
Listen, Im saying by taking something out of context you end up giving a false impression of the passage by not providing the whole passage in context. It doesn't matter to me how you interpret it but for gods sake read it in context instead of presenting bits of suggestive verses that are out of context to give a false impression.Quote:
It doesn't matter one bit how I interpret it; I think the whole thing is a bunch of lies, just like the bible. That's irrelevant. Out of context, in context, who cares; it doesn't matter much when it's all a bunch of crap anyway.
You continue to ignore the fact that that is how it is interpreted by the fundamentalist Muslims themselves. It doesn't matter how you think it should be read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
I just think you had it backwards--the fundamentalist Muslims are more like the Nazis than the other way around, difference being they seem to be much less effective, for the time being. They have made us spend a lot of time and money defending against them tho. (Been to the airport in the last few years?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
No, I don't believe in collective punishment. However, I do believe that someone who is part of that faith, or the Christian faith, is partially morally responsible for what other people who use that faith as justification to do bad things. Christians are all partially responsible for what fundamentalist Christians do, by accepting a holy book that has things like "stone homosexuals" in it. I don't think people should be punished for things that they haven't done, I'm saying that everybody who accepts the Bible and the Koran as the word of god is giving aid and comfort to those that use those books as permission to attack other people. That's really the main point, in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
You may be for freedom of speech, but the Dutch government has censored things that may have been insulting to Muslims. I never saw that Mohammed cartoon until I saw that video--why not? I wonder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
I really didn't see the video as being against average Muslims, just fundamentalists.
I'm repeating myself too--they do it themselves! Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims use the Bible and the Koran as the justification for what they do all the time! Do you deny that is true? The video shows somebody being beheaded, then it quotes a verse from the Koran saying to behead people--are you saying there's no connection between those two things?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
Haven't you ever seen people quote bible verses out of context to prove a point? It happens constantly, it's the way those books are used, especially by fundamentalists. I can't say that again; if you don't understand that, I give up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
Oh no, it's happening again! :? I think I said everything I can about that. Except that maybe you ought to go tell a few fundamentalist Muslims that they aren't interpreting their book right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
Only education, and denial of all irrational beliefs, ignorance, and superstition will help. That's where it all starts.
I highly doubt very many fundamentalist muslims use skewed passages to justify terrorism. At any rate it(the movie) gives a false image of the relegion itself by giving skewed and out of context quotes from the Qu'ran. That is paramount to a lie. I wonder what would happen if bush started quoting the constitution out of context to justify something of a rather. The country would be in uproar about it. On the last page i provided an essay from a different website. At the end of this post i will provide onother such essay, i think it will explain to you what im talking about better then i ever could.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
The point i was making in the post that you quoted is that Muslims are (often) being sterotyped as being terrorists in, and the comparison i was making to blacks was that Blacks have been and are sterotyped as criminals/thugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
Does that in anyway make it ok the fact that the film demonizes or fearmongers European Muslims? Things like that only make rifts bigger between European Muslims and other Europeans. It exasterbates race/relegion relations and has no postive effect whatsoever. All it does is teach the impresionable to fear and hate muslims as a whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
Well if the things the Dutch Government censored were not compilations of quotes taken out of context to give a skewed meaning then what they actually mean if you read them in context and if such films didn't villify/demonize muslims as a whole then im all for it and if any such films or productions were censored then i would assume that is a matter for the Dutch courts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
The cartoons were initialy published in a Danish magazine or newspaper and later on published in several other European newspapers/magazines. I take it you don't live in Europe? Furthermore the cartoons themelves were controversial and hateful, What would the Anti Defamation League (ADL) say if Anti Semtiic cartoons were published in New Papers and on shown on television?
I must add that the beheadings that occur, occured in countries such as Afghanistan under the Taliban, Iran (Which is a theocracy) and Saud Arabia which is governed under Sharia Law. These countries take the Qu'ran to a very literal level. I must add this is no longer true in Afghanistan since the regime change of 2001.Quote:
I'm repeating myself too--they do it themselves! Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims use the Bible and the Koran as the justification for what they do all the time! Do you deny that is true? The video shows somebody being beheaded, then it quotes a verse from the Koran saying to behead people--are you saying there's no connection between those two things?
If the image of the execution seen in the video is from Iran. It is from the period just after the Islamic Revoloution when the country was just on its feet and was "executing left and right". And many of those executions in Iran were not just for adultery but they were for incest. It in no way justifies the executions but i thought it had to be mentioned.
Again i seriously doubt if the fundamentalist are using skewed and taken out of context verses from the Qu'ran like the video does. And if any do then they are a small minority of Muslims and that in no way excuses the innacuracy of the video.
Let me revive an example from one of my earlier posts for you.Quote:
Haven't you ever seen people quote bible verses out of context to prove a point? It happens constantly, it's the way those books are used, especially by fundamentalists. I can't say that again; if you don't understand that, I give up.
"In the video Fitna they presented this quote from the Qu'ran::"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly. "
however they neglect to include this: "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)."
I seriously doubt that fundamentalist Muslims will smudge out that last part and just ignore it like the film Fitna so conveniently did. It's just my guess but i think that verse is just to lay out the rules of war. Again that is only my 2 cents about it.
I told you already how taking things out of context is misinformation.Quote:
Oh no, it's happening again! :? I think I said everything I can about that. Except that maybe you ought to go tell a few fundamentalist Muslims that they aren't interpreting their book right.
Only education, and denial of all irrational beliefs, ignorance, and superstition will help. That's where it all starts.
And by the way i apologize for my belated response.
"EDIT" Moonbeam there is onother essay from onother website about the Fitna that i suggest you read, I posted it on the other page of this thread. Alternatively you can read this other one i will post in just a secound aswell.
Quote:
only if you are talking about the minority of ignorant Muslims. it would have been ok if he didn't take verses out of context and said that this is what Islam preaches.
the movie is truly 15 minutes of pure "fitna"!!
Fitna is caused by doing or saying things that spread hatred. When there is “fitna” there is schism, upheaval and sometimes anarchy. if we act with violence we are just proving the guy right.
the messenger Muhammad advised a Muslim who asked him... he told him "don't get angry" he said that three times. he also said that getting angry is from Satan who is made from fire, to turn the fire off we need to wash up (wodoo). or at least if someone is angry and he is standing up he should sit down, if he is sitting down he should lie down. anything to keep you from acting upon your anger.
THIS IS MY OPINION:
freedom of speech now has a new meaning...
freedom of speech = defamation through lies. which is a crime in all civilized countries.
my REFUTE of the verses that were used by the guy.
8:39. And fight them on until there is no more PERSECUTION, and religion becomes Allah's in its entirety; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
the WHOLE surah (chapter) is about a story that happened in the past . It’s THE WAR OF BADR. It was between the Muslims and their “non-believer” enemies “Kuraish”. That’s why the verses were talking about the “non-believers” it’s an adjective … referring to those specific non-believers. It’s not a law for all Muslims. Just a story that is over…. You will find that to be true when you check earlier verses including:
8:33. But Allah was not going to send them a chastisement whilst thou wast amongst them; nor was He going to send it whilst they could ask for pardon.
“whilst thou wast amongst them” = Muhammad. He only lived in the 7th century!!
God was not going to punish the non-believers (Kuraish) while Muhammad was there.
THE REASON of that war wasn’t that they are “non-believers” it was because Kuraish tortured weaker Muslims, drove many Muslims out of their houses, confiscated their properties and conspired to kill Muhammad forcing him out of the city when he was only trying to follow Abraham and Ishmael -who are his blood ancestors- by praying to God in the holy place in Mecca. It’s his right to live in the city he was born in, grew up in and it’s his right to follow his own beliefs without being persecuted. He just wanted to return to his own city.
By the way the war was fought OUTSIDE THE CITY. The two armies met outside the city and fought.
_____________________
the verse (8:60) the guy just removed everything before and after it:
[8.56] Those with whom you make an agreement, then they BREAK THEIR AGREEMENT EVERY TIME and they do not guard (against punishment).
[8.57] Therefore if you overtake them in fighting, then scatter by (making an example of) them those who are in their rear, that they may be mindful.
[8.58] And if you fear treachery on the part of a people, then throw back to them on terms of equality; surely Allah does not love the treacherous.
And then come the verses Sura 8 verse 60
[8.61] But IF the ENEMY incline towards PEACE, do you (also) Incline Towards PEACE, and trust in Allah: for He is the One that hears and knows (all things).
the verse says to prepare for war in a way that terrifies the enemies.
but the movie separated the words "to strike terror" in a separate line to get your attention away from the fact that is terrifying through preparation not terrorizing the peaceful.
It’s to fight those who break peace agreements. But if they return to peace then Muslims HAVE to return to peace. If someone attacks you wouldn’t you prepare everything in your power to defend yourself?
He mentioned 60 and didn’t say it’s for agreement breakers and didn’t mention 61 which is all about peace.
_____________________
4:56
If you believe in God’s signs you don’t need to be scared of God’s punishment. This has nothing to do with Muslims attacking people! If you are a believer there’s nothing to worry about and if you are a non-believer then don’t be upset about something that you don’t believe in which is “hell” in the afterlife.
Believer does not equal Muslim. A Muslim can be a believer or not. A non-muslim can be a believer or not.
It’s God who decides.
_____________________
(4:89) again, out of context.
Hypocrites in Islam are those who pretend to be the Muslims allies when they are the allies of the Muslims’ enemies.
4:88. Why should ye be divided into two parties about the HYPOCRITES? Allah hath cost them of their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
4:89. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): So take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
4:90. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore IF THEY WITHDRAW FROM YOU BUT FIGHT YOU NOT, AND (INSTEAD) SEND YOU (GUARANTEES OF) PEACE, THEN ALLAH HATH OPENED NO WAY FOR YOU (TO WAR AGAINST THEM).
Again Muslims are allowed defend themselves against those who fight them. it’s defense. If the attacker wants peace then there’s no need to defend ourselves.
There was nothing such as “NEUTRAL”. People were divided into ALLIES, ENEMIES, people with whom they had AGREEMENTS. That’s the way it was.
_____________________
47:4. Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind (the captives) firmly: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
again he mixes peace times and war times. And again “the unbelievers” is an adjective referring to “those people”. The whole purpose of the war is that the believers will be left alone to live and worship in peace. It’s not to convert the non-believers.
There are 2 verses in another surah or “chapter” that sets the peaceful people from the other people in treatment:
60:8. Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who FIGHT YOU NOT for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing KINDLY and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
60:9. Allah only FORBIDS YOU, with regard to those who FIGHT YOU for (your) Faith, and DRIVE YOU OUT OF YOUR HOMES, and support (others) in driving you out, FROM TURNING TO THEM (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.
I guess this is fair enough, kind with peaceful but not friends with attackers.
The word used in verse 60 for the peaceful people instead of “dealing kindly” is the same used for being kind to parents “tabarroohom”.
_____________________
I guess the guy who made the movie should be paid by terrorists. He’s their new “brainwasher” of people. (whoever wants to be brainwashed, that is)
please people, judge Islam by its content not its sinful followers. the good and the bad exist in every religion.
if the majority of Muslims were like that it would be WW3. it's difficult to control an army of over a billion, you know?
the misunderstandings are because of ignorance or it's a cultural or political thing not religious
I just think you're wrong about that. The reason that they do it is because they are true believers. They Koran is telling them to do it (in the way that they interpret it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
Ha, you have more faith in the people of this country than I do. Bush has done a lot worse than that, and nobody cares until they have to start paying more money for gas, then all of a sudden they don't like him anymore. Constitution, shmonstitution, that's how much most people in this country give a damn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
I guess I understand what you are trying to say. We just disagree about how much the religious texts have to do with what fundamentalists do. Why do you think they do what they do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
You don't see too many Amish terrorists, do you? I think their beliefs are as untrue as the Muslims, but they keep it to themselves, so it's not something we have to worry about as much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
That's like saying we shouldn't be against the KKK, because it just promotes fear and hatred towards white people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
I live in the U.S. Censorship was the point, not whether not they liked the cartoons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
This has been my whole point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
But you just said that there are whole countries who base their law on the literal interpretaion of the Koran.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
I can't say anymore about that. It's obvious that they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
Why don't they take out the bad parts then, if they can just pick and choose what they want to follow anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
Oh that's OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastone Mojaisky
Gastone, I don't think we are convincing each other of anything. My POV is much different than yours. I think that if all religions aren't denounced by rational people, fundamentalist of various denominations could easily take over the whole world. They are the aggressive ones; the wimpy religions can't stand up to them, and aid them in their mission by their insistence on "tolerance" for any kind or irrational "faith", no matter how obnoxious it is.
That video was disgusting! it infuriates me how religion pollutes our world.
Oh and you cant excuse these acts by saying its a misinterpretation of the text when it is plainly stated in the books
The whole argument about whether a certain section of scripture has been quoted in or out of context is almost entirely irrelevant. Any language, other than that of mathematics, has intrinsic blur that needs to be interpreted by the reader or the listener. When I say something like 'time flies like an arrow', you almost automatically assume that I meant 'time flies in the same way that an arrow does'. Hang on, maybe I meant 'one should always time flies in the same way as one would time an arrow'. Your mind assigned a meaning to the text, and the interpretation is yours alone.
The point I am trying to make is that almost all meaning assigned to a verse in your holy text comes from you the reader, and not whoever wrote the text. Which makes one wonder why God chose to reveal himself in the form of highly obscure poetic language rather than the language of mathematics. In fact better still, why didn't God reveal himself by adding an appendage to the human brain (just humans mind you, as he presumably doesn't care much for other oganisms) that automatically beeps when you do something against the will of God. That way, the beeper would be the ultimate truth conveyor, and it wouldn't be open to the kind of muddling and perversion as text tends to be.
I think the real problem arises when you assume that the words in the text came from God. All signs point to the fact that they were composed by human poets with a millenium-old sense of morality.
Yes. Scarily so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kushna Mufeed
Sharia law anyone?
Hey, im late in on this thread. heh.
I just watched this with my partner on youtube. It renews my fear of Islam from when I was 14 and watched the planes crash into the twin towers.
My initial reaction was to wish that Obama would just send all of our nukes over to the Islamic countries and wipe them off the face of the earth. This reaction was purely emotional and vengeful.
This kind of adhesion to religion reminds me of Christianity before they became civilized, after the crusades and such. It seems that Islam, at least in other countries, has not evolved to the point that Christianity has. (the point where they realize subconsciously that it's all bullshit and they pick and choose what they want to believe in)
The stain of religion is destroying so many lives that I can't even comprehend. My partner just finished the book Infidel, which pretty much chronicles the life of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who went through female genital mutilation at the age of five. (without anesthetics BTW)
Islam is a poison among any modern society at this point. Just like Christianity was back in the dark ages.
Secularism is not perfect. But I would say that we are doing a HELL of a lot better then any of these fundie savages that are murdering and torturing and enslaving people.
I have read Kushna's replies from this thread. They are weak. You cannot get around the fact that Allah is a petty, jealous, and vengeful douche. Just like the god of the old testament.
Religion has been separating men and making us harm each other for long enough. It's time to shed off these ridiculous children's stories, and realize that the only way to succeed is to come together without superstition.